Hank Smith: 00:00:03 Hello my friends. Welcome to another episode of FollowHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host and I’m here with my shining co-host, John Bytheway. Welcome to another episode of FollowHIM John.

John Bytheway: 00:00:14 Thank you, my shining. I got to daub myself here.

Hank Smith: 00:00:16 Yes, we’ve got to get makeup in here, right? In the stories we’re going to read today, there’s a lot of shining people and so I thought, well, that’s John. John fits right in with the what we’re going to read about today.

John Bytheway: 00:00:27 Right back at you.

Hank Smith: 00:00:29 We are going to have a lot of fun in these scriptures. We have a wonderful guest back with us, John, who’s joining us?

John Bytheway: 00:00:35 Yes, we have Dr. Ross Baron back with us, and I’m so excited about this. I had a lot of people comment on when he was with us in those last chapters of Isaiah in our Old Testament podcast and some of the amazing things that he has done and stories he told being in Southern California. So we’re really glad to have him back. I’m excited. I just know I’m going to learn a lot and I’ve got my pen and pencils ready.

  00:00:58 He was born and raised in southern California, joined the church at age 18. He told us about that last time. Served a mission to Argentina. When he returned home, he met, fell in love with Kathleen Ann Bolton and they were married in the Los Angeles temple. They have nine children, five boys and four girls. He received a bachelor’s degree from BYU Provo in Finance Master’s and PhD from USC in Religion and Social Ethics. And after 12 years of being institute director and coordinator came to teach at BYU Idaho in the summer of 2005. And I just loved this part of his bio. He has this little section called Unique Things I have Done. He went on The Price Is Right, won a stove, a mop, and a barrel sauna.

Hank Smith: 00:01:45 That’s awesome.

John Bytheway: 00:01:47 Went on the History channel to represent the church some. One of the things that we talked about on our last podcast is he led community firesides about the church where thousands attended and some were featured on the website fairlds.org, played drums with a group of institute students at the Hard Rock Cafe in Los Angeles. But mostly, he loves to teach and learn. Loves being in the classroom with students and we’re your students today. We’re really glad to have you back.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:02:15 Well, appreciate it. Great to be back. Thank you both of you.

Hank Smith: 00:02:18 The lesson today is entitled, He Is Risen, and these are some of the most incredible chapters in all of scripture, and we’re going to cover a lot of them. Not just one or two, but there is a handful of amazing chapters here. So where do you want to go?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:02:34 So grateful to have the opportunity, and I actually feel humbled and privileged to be able to talk about He has risen. I mean, in some ways we can say Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24 and John 20 and 21 are the capstones of the gospels. This is it. So I wanted to do a little thing with both of you in terms of kind of, as you know, I’m a convert to the church. I was born into Judaism and converted into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when I was 18 years old. And I was raised by wonderful parents, wonderful family, taught good values. But my main question was what happens when you die? That literally was my, even as a young age, I kind of was like, hey, so what happens when you die? Now, Judaism is a big river and lots of different beliefs, but I’m going to read just a short quote of what my rabbi’s view was.

  00:03:32 And then I want both, John, I’d love for you and Hank to kind of imagine you’re a 17-year-old, you’re sitting in synagogue, and your question is, what happens when you die? And this is the quote you get. Now this is actually from a quote from Richard L. Rubenstein in a book called The Making of a Rabbi. And here’s the quote, “Even as a child, I believe that when I died, the whole world of my existence would disappear with me. My world would last only as long as I did. I was convinced that I had arisen out of nothingness. And in the final analysis, omnipotent, nothingness was Lord of all creation. We have nothing to hope for beyond what we are capable of creating and the time we have allotted to us. Nevertheless, in the final analysis, all things crumble away into the nothingness, which is at the beginning and end of creation.”

Hank Smith: 00:04:31 Wow.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:04:32 So John, Hank, seriously, I just, you’re 17 years old, what are you thinking?

John Bytheway: 00:04:38 My first thought is this is so pointless. Like he said, there’s nothing to hope for. That would be the hard part. Where’s hope?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:04:47 Hank, any thoughts?

Hank Smith: 00:04:49 It reminds me of a quote, it’s an old quote from Euripedes. He was mourning someone in death. He just cried out, “Come back. Even just as a shadow, just as a dream” right? Anything at all. “Give me some glimmer that you still live.” It sounds like that quote is saying you don’t have that glimmer.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:05:13 No.

Hank Smith: 00:05:13 You don’t have that hope and you need to accept that that’s just tragic in every way.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:05:19 And it is. And so this is kind of what I’m being taught, but what’s so fascinating is that within me, there’s something saying that’s absolutely not true. Now, I don’t know that, but in my spirit I said that can’t be true. That can’t be true. And I think what Satan tries to do is to convince us not only is there not an answer, but maybe we can never know the answer. And the ringing testimony of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, modern prophets and apostles, the prophet of the restoration, Joseph Smith, is that not only is it true that we do have life after death and that God lives and that there is a resurrection, but we can know it too. We can absolutely know it. And so I wanted to start off because for me, this is real. This is very personal. The resurrection accounts mean everything to me.

  00:06:16 I wanted to frame it. I know it was depressing, and both of you should have seen your faces. I mean you guys, I ended that quote and both of you were like… Because that’s what that quote does. But what’s so fascinating is I think a lot of the world might believe that right now that that’s the case. We have the opportunity today to talk about the fact that A, that’s just not true. And B, we can know for ourselves that it’s not true, which is awesome. And then I wanted to frame it with one other interesting story. So this is now probably 25, 30 years ago. I’m married, I’m back from my mission. I’m a member of the church, but I’m driving in a car with a friend of mine who has this belief and his father had just died. We weren’t talking. And then he finally said to me, “How could all these people be driving on the freeway? How could the sun come up this morning? How could the flowers bloom? How could anything be living when my dad just died?”

Hank Smith: 00:07:08 How can life continue?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:09 “How could this even be?” And I said, the reason it can be, the reason the flowers bloom and these people drive and the sun came up is because your dad’s not dead. Your dad’s alive and you’re going to be able to see him again. And man, you should see, he just looked at me because I was so intent about it. Are you serious? I said, I’m serious with all my heart. That’s why the flowers can bloom and the sun can come up because otherwise it shouldn’t. You are right. You are right. So anyway, I wanted to frame it because when we talk about this, and sometimes when we talk about scriptures and we go into academic mode or we’re teachers and we kind of slide into this mood, this is very real.

  00:07:51 It’s visceral for me because I wasn’t raised with it. John and Hank, I think, and a lot of our listeners, Easter was something you guys did. You were raised with it and kind of part and parcel of your lives. It wasn’t for me. I wanted to also quote the prophet Joseph, maybe again to make sure that we’re centered here. And you all have heard this. This is from the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, page 49, “The fundamental principles of our religion” quoting the prophet Joseph, “are the testimony of the apostles and prophets.” Both living and alive. He doesn’t say that. That’s my bracketing there “concerning Jesus Christ that he died was buried and rose again the third day and ascended into heaven.

  00:08:34 And all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.” Wow. Like, okay, there’s the focus right there. And that’s the privilege we have to talk about the fact that he died, he was buried and he rose again. There’s nothing better. And then Elder Gary Stevenson from the last general conference, April 2023, he’s quoting N.T. Wright who’s not a Latter-day Saint, but he’s a great Christian scholar. “Take Christmas away.” Do you guys remember this? “And in biblical terms, you lose two chapters in the front of Matthew and Luke, nothing else. Take Easter away and you don’t have a New Testament. You don’t have a Christianity.” Wow.

John Bytheway: 00:09:17 That great?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:18 Isn’t that amazing?

John Bytheway: 00:09:19 And we heard that repeatedly at general conference. Didn’t we get that impression? We have got to make Easter in our minds and hearts what It really is, bigger than Christmas.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:31 No, that’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:09:32 I was reading in the Bible Dictionary before we started and it says under miracles, Christianity, this is the world’s largest religion, is founded on the greatest of all miracles, the resurrection of our Lord. And then this statement, if that be admitted, meaning if you and I believe in the resurrection, other miracles cease to be improbable, that all comes down to this.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:55 That’s exactly right. And I know this isn’t in the gospels, but it’s in the book of Romans. Paul, if we want to turn to Romans chapter one, I love this ringing declaration, which I find to be inspiring and I hope inspiring to others. So this is Romans chapter one. He says, Paul, I’m in verse one. A servant of Jesus Christ called to be an apostle separated, look at this, unto the gospel of God. I think preach my gospel missionaries know this, that it is the gospel of God the Father. There aren’t two plans. The one question was the father had wasn’t how do I save humanity? The question was, whom shall I send to fulfill the terms and conditions of the plan? It is the gospel of God. And then I love this verse three, concerning his son, Jesus Christ. The gospel of God concerning his son, Jesus Christ.

  00:10:52 Verse four, and declared to be the son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness. How? By the resurrection from the dead. Gives me goosebumps, those four verses. Paul, in an inspired such a succinct, crisp way. The gospel of God concerning his son Jesus Christ and declared to be the son of God, how? By the resurrection from the dead. If there is no resurrection, he’s not the son of God. He’s not the Christ. So I thought this idea of introducing kind of what we’re talking about with this ringing testimony from Paul in Romans, what a way to frame it. He’s declared to be the son of God by the resurrection and that is power. Now, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, you guys have been doing the podcast now in the New Testament for a while, and we all know they have different audiences, right?

  00:11:45 Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John written at different times, different sources. There’s all kinds of discussions about that. But I wanted to look through and find maybe some key thematic points in all of the gospels if that’s okay. Here’s a common theme. Women come to the tomb early in the morning, the first day of the week with a concern about the stone. Number two, angels are there. Divine authorized messengers. Number three, there’s an imperative from the angels to go tell the disciples and others, by the way. So if you read carefully, the 11 are mourning and weeping, but there’s others there as well. So it’s like you got to go tell them. The fourth common theme is unbelief. Now I know that sounds strange and I’m going to talk about that more, but they don’t believe it. The fifth common theme of course is the Savior shows up.

  00:12:46 Now he doesn’t just show up. He also goes through kind of an interesting process. Number one, peace be unto you, but then he’s going to do some instruction. He’s going to reprove them for unbelief. And then he’s going to require, and I’m going to talk about this more too, that they physically feel him. And he’s going to eat with them and he’s going to commission them because you might say, okay, so cool, he resurrected. Now what? He’s going to be like, okay, no, this is the deal. I am resurrected. The redemption is complete. Now you have to go tell the world. So there’s these common elements, women at the tomb early in the morning, first day of the week, there’s a stone. Angels are there. You got to go tell the disciples, there’s unbelief, the Savior shows up. Peace be unto you, a little bit of a reproof for the idea of you have not believed.

  00:13:42 And then what we’re going to do is we’re going to feel me, we’re going to eat with me, and then I’m going to commission you. Isn’t that interesting? So there’s that kind of pattern that ties through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And of course if we’re thinking it’s 3 Nephi 11 as well, we might call that the Fifth Gospel in some ways. But there’s that exact same kind of idea that thematic elements that proceed through Third Nephi as well, which is again, a powerful testimony that we’re all aligned. Now there are nuances. Anybody who’s read carefully, the Matthew, Mark, Luke, John accounts, knows that there’s nuances and different sequencing a little bit and there’s some things and we try to harmonize it. I’m not sure their intent was to harmonize it. I’m pretty confident it wasn’t. But they all ring true on these basic powerful elements, if that’s okay.

Hank Smith: 00:14:31 I think that that’s exactly right. We don’t get caught up on details, one or two angels, what exactly did they say? But you got these similar pillars through every single account, through every single story.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:14:42 Awesome. So I wanted to use Luke 24 in my class. I always call it, we’re going to use this as the spine, meaning kind of we’re going to use this as kind of, we’re going to guide us. But we’re going to use the Luke account, but that’s going to allow us to go to the Mark account and the John account and the Matthew account, if that’s okay. And if we could just start in Luke chapter 24 of verse one. Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, notice the time mentions, every gospel writer the first day of the week. So they want you to know it’s Sunday morning and then very early in the morning. So that’s the second time reference. Now, keep your finger here again. We’re going to go to Mark 16. And in Mark 16, look at the time references.

  00:15:30 It’s fascinating. So we’re in verse one, Mark 16. And when the Sabbath was passed, time reference one, Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of James and Salomi had bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint him. Very early in the morning, second time reference, first day of the week, third time reference, they came unto the Sepulchre at the rising of the sun, fourth time reference. And by the way, we’ll just use Luke and Mark in that case. Matthew brings it up three times. John brings it up twice. They want you to know it is the first day of the week. It is very early in the morning and they’re coming to do this thing. Clearly we have symbolism here, and I think of the day dawn is breaking hymn 52. We’ve got the death of the old day, the dawning of the new day and old dispensation is folding away.

  00:16:18 A new dispensation is coming in. And also what’s super significant, and I love making Old Testament connections, is the idea that it’s on Sunday. You guys know that the Sabbath in the holy land is a big deal, right? I mean, it’s Saturday, right? It’s a big deal. But this is happening on Sunday and some people are like, what’s going on? And I want to suggest that this idea of the gospel writers mentioning the time, it’s this first day of the week, it’s early in the morning and it’s going to brighten as the day goes, right? And the revelation, and again, Elder Bednar, sometimes it’s super bright right away, but sometimes it’s gradual. It seems like this is a gradual one. Even though this is the most astonishing and astounding thing that could possibly happen. This is a gradual kind of unfolding as the darkness goes to dawn and as the day increases the realization of what has actually happened.

  00:17:14 But I’d love to make another connection here. In Leviticus 23, it has essentially the holy calendar. So this is the holy calendar that goes on. And if we can turn to Leviticus 23, how many times have you been asked to turn to Leviticus 23 in your life? I tell my students it’s going to be their favorite chapter when we’re done doing it in class. So Leviticus 23 goes through the holy calendar. Now there’s something super interesting here. So you have in verse five, it says in the 14th day of the first month. Now the first month in the Hebrew calendar is not January. This isn’t a modern calendar, it’s spring. The other thing they have to understand is that the Hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar. So dates can shift a little bit.

  00:18:00 So Passover can be late March, early April. It’s not some fixed time. So they have the Passover, and then right the next day, verse six, and on the 15th day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread. Now look at this, and the seven days you must eat unleavened bread. Now John and Hank tell our listeners, what’s unleavened bread?

John Bytheway: 00:18:24 It doesn’t have yeast in it. So it doesn’t rise.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:18:28 Right. In the bread, they call its matzah and you’ve had matzah. Well, it’s not great, but I figured you put enough butter and cheese on anything and we can eat it. But the matzah is the unleavened bread, right? And in fact, they’re so concerned with the leavening idea, it’s seven days that there’s traditions about getting the leaven out of your house and all these kind of interesting things. And even in some ideas that if you eat leaven during the Passover, the feast of unleavened bread, you are cut off from among the people.

  00:18:59 Okay? That’s how serious this is. But you brought up, it’s the rising agent of the bread, right? It’s the yeast. The next holy day, so we go to verse 10, speak unto the children of Israel and say unto them, when ye be come into the land, which I give unto you and shall reap the harvest thereof. Now the first harvest and spring is going to be barley and wheat that was sown in the fall, and now this is the first harvest is barley and wheat. When you come into the land, which I give unto you and shall reap the harvest thereof, then shall ye bring a sheath of the first fruits of your harvest unto the priest. Now notice this verse 11, and the priest, this authorized messenger of God, he shall wave the sheath offering before the Lord to be accepted for you, underline, asterisk, triple exclamation, point on the next line, on the morrow, after the Sabbath, the priests shall wave it.

  00:19:59 Literally, let’s think in our minds what this priest is doing. He’s taking the first fruits of the harvest from the fall. Now we’re reaping it in the spring, and he’s going to actually lift it up and wave it before God. What day of the week is he doing that? Sunday, on the tomorrow after the Sabbath. So Paul, one Corinthians 15 says, verse 20, but now is Christ risen from the dead being the first fruits of them that slept. He’s directly tying it back to Leviticus 23. Jesus is the first fruits. There was no resurrection before Christ’s resurrection. None. People were brought back from the dead, but they had to die again. Sometimes my students are a little confused like, well, Lazarus was resurrected. No, Lazarus was not resurrected then. In John 11, that’s Lazarus his spirit had to come from the spirit world back into the mortal body, and then he lived, but then eventually had to die again.

  00:21:04 What this is pointing to, and again, all things point to Christ, Mosiah 13, 2 Nephi 11, they’re teaching us that the law of Moses is a type and a shadow for Christ. And the plan, this is amazing. Now, wait, I’m not done. The next holy day, he’s going to say this, verse 15, and you shall count unto you from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the chief of the wave offering. Seven sabbaths shall be complete even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall you number 50 days. Again, the seventh, it’s going to be on Sunday and you shall offer a new meat offering. But look, in the middle of verse 17, they shall be baken with leaven in the Passover and the feast of unleavened bread, no leaven. In fact, if you have leaven, you could be cut off from among the people.

  00:21:52 Then we do the wave offering, we raise it up, and then we have the day of Pentecost 50 days later, and now your sacrifices are going to have leaven. Why? Well before Christ hasn’t risen. The Passover and the feast of unleavened bread is his atonement and his death. The wave offering is the resurrection, the feast of Pentecost outpouring of the Holy Ghost. Now you keep leaven in it. Jesus has risen from the dead. Isn’t that awesome?

John Bytheway: 00:22:21 Yeah, that’s fantastic.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:22:22 So the first day of the week, so I’m making this big deal, Luke 24:1, Mark 16:1, Matthew 28:1, John 20 verse one, because they all the gospel writers talk about it. And you have to be thinking it’s cool that they’re talking about it. Mark brings it up four times, four time references. This is Sunday. It’s early in the morning, right? I mean, if the Sabbath has passed, this is what’s going on. Yeah, I wanted to kind of make that connection because I think it’s important. And I think it’s a beautiful tie to the Old Testament, beautiful tie.

John Bytheway: 00:22:55 Yeah, thank you. For years when Paul said the first fruits of them that slept, I mean it made sense without knowing, oh, that that’s an actual feast. And then him tying to, hey, this is the Jesus is the first being ever to be resurrected. So thank you for mentioning the Paul reference too, because he clearly saw it too.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:23:18 I love that. Thank you. Because Paul is so connected, maybe more than anyone, to being able to see Jesus through the Old Testament. But now is Christ risen from the dead being the first fruits of them that slept. Wow, that’s Leviticus 23. That is the harvest. That’s the wave offering. He’s brought up, and it’s on the Sabbath. It has to be on the Sabbath. Okay, next thing. We’ve got women coming to the tomb early in the morning. One of the women who’s mentioned in all four is Mary Magdalene. Not in the Luke account, but in Mark 16:9 and in Luke 8:2. So back in Luke, it says that Mary Magdalene is a woman out of whom came seven devils. I want to be super careful here. I want to be super careful. I don’t pretend to know why she had been possessed of seven devils.

  00:24:12 I don’t know any of that, but I do know this, the arc of her life and up having her being one of the greatest believers and the first person to see a resurrected being. So anybody who thinks, man, I’ve gone too far. I’ve done too much. There’s no redemption for me. There’s no repentance for me. Mary Magdalene again, and I think we’ll get one day the great full story. But what we know is she went from a woman out of whom came seven devils to being one of the closest associates of the Lord Jesus Christ. So whatever that entailed, I believe it’s like the message of Alma or any other message. If they can repent, I can repent. If Mary can, I can. And I think that’s a powerful message. The other thing too is that women are there. Now, this is where Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are going to turn maybe some expectations on our heads.

  00:25:06 Why are they going to the tomb? They’re going to the tomb to anoint his body. Apparently they don’t get to fully do it because we’re rushing a little bit after the crucifixion and we’re putting it in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, and we’re rushing a little bit so we don’t fully get to annoint his body. And so the women are coming early in the morning because we got to finish the job now, but they’re coming to anoint his body. And in a way, that’s a form of unbelief. I know that’s weird that I’m saying that. And I admire these women. They’re amazing. They’re faithful, but what don’t they get? He’s not there.

John Bytheway: 00:25:45 He’s not going to be there.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:25:46 He’s not going to be there. But they don’t, and again, I’m not blaming them, but I want to make I think a point here. So they’re thinking we’ve got to go anoint his body and it hasn’t entered into their mind or heart that he’s not there. Now, I want to contrast this with a story in John 12 if we can. So can we go to John chapter 12. In John 12, Mary, the sister of Martha and the sister of Lazarus does something that’s fascinating. We all know this story. They’re in Bethany. I’m in verse one. Then Jesus, six days before the Passover came to Bethany. So that’s where Lazarus is raised from the dead and Martha made him stuff and they’re all there. Verse three, then took Mary a pound of ointment of Spikenard, very costly and anointed the feet of Jesus. Wiped his feet with her hair and the house was filled with the odor of the ointment. So she anoints him. Now in the John account, we get the idea verse four, then saith one of his disciples, Judith Iscariot Simon’s son, which should betray him.

  00:26:53 I wish John wouldn’t have kept spoiling that. I just have some tension here. I always feel like he’s like, grr. Every time he mentions Judas’s name, why was not this ointment sold for 300 pence, which is a year’s salary, by the way, a year. That ointment that she’s putting on his feet would be like a year’s for a laborer that would’ve been a full year’s pay. Why wasn’t it given to the poor? Verse seven, then said, Jesus, let her alone. Now there’s a Joseph Smith translation seven footnote A, for she has preserved this ointment until now that she might anoint me in token of my burial. I guess I want to ask this question. She gets something that the apostles don’t get. She is anointing him for his burial, and I want to understand why did she get it, but others didn’t. Why would this woman understand? But the 11 don’t or the 12 don’t. Others don’t but she gets it. Any thoughts on that?

Hank Smith: 00:27:53 I don’t know. I’ve thought about that before. I’ve thought she seems to understand, John, you’ve mentioned this, John the Baptist seems to get it. Behold the Lamb of God, the sacrifice of God, but the apostles don’t seem to.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:28:10 They don’t seem to get it. And I’m not, again, I’m not trying to criticize the apostles. I’m not saying I would’ve got it, but I think there’s an interesting juxtaposition here. And I want the juxtaposition to be that Mary, again, the sister of Lazarus and Martha, who apparently Lord loved very much spends time in Bethany with them. She gets it, but at the tomb, the women don’t get it. The apostles don’t get it. No one gets it. No one gets it. Isn’t that interesting? So we do get it here. She’s open, she’s listening. She’s anointing for his burial. But when we get to the tomb scene, every gospel writer, no one gets it.

Hank Smith: 00:28:50 Yeah. Doesn’t John say himself? This is John 20, verse nine. They knew not the scripture that he must rise again from the dead. That it seems so obvious.

John Bytheway: 00:29:00 That’s one of those things that helps us see that the gospels were written after the fact and always makes me think, Hey, yeah, he did say that. And yeah, he did say that. What you said before about the women, I’ve made the same observation in class, but I’ve only that the women seem to know what was going to happen. Don’t know why. Maybe they listened better, more sensitive. I don’t know why, but they seem to have understand, at least against the day of my bearing, has she kept this? And it sounds like she kept that ointment, preserved this ointment until now that JST says, because that’s a very expensive thing to keep around the house.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:29:39 Right. And I love it. I love what you’re saying. I mean, she got it. She was in tune. I want to think to myself, what don’t we get? What are apostles and prophets and the Holy Ghost and the scriptures teaching me and what don’t I get?

John Bytheway: 00:29:54 What a great question.

Hank Smith: 00:29:56 What will look obvious in time?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:29:58 Exactly. One day. So Hank, it’s going to be like, no, duh.

Hank Smith: 00:30:02 Right. How did I miss it?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:30:03 Yeah, exactly. I keep thinking about the second coming of the Savior, and I’m not talking about the timing. I’m not talking, but there’s aspects of the second coming. There’s probably even aspects of us going into the spirit world or of the restoration and its growth. President Nelson seems to be kind of wanting to peel back our eyes to say the glorious aspect, the most important work is the gathering of Israel. Nothing’s more important than that work. And I think we’re like, yeah, yeah, that’s cool. That’s awesome. But what don’t we get? Because I want to be at it. I want to be Mary and Bethany, I want to get it. I guess I’m asking all of us to think clearly or maybe to think a little bit and ponder in prayer. Heavenly Father, help me get what I’m supposed to get.

John Bytheway: 00:30:48 That’s kind of red-faced. Oh yeah, he did say that. And I’m thinking about the Book of Mormon when Jesus is like, didn’t Samuel prophesy that I was going to rise from the dead and appear unto many? Oh yeah, he did. Why isn’t it here?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:31:04 Yeah, we’ll write that down. He did say that.

Hank Smith: 00:31:07 Even the angels at the tomb say as he said, right? As he said,

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:31:13 No, and in fact, the angels at the tomb are like remember? And they’re like, ah, we remember now. He did say he’s going to raise the third day. Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah. I mean, I just think we blow by these verses, but this is critical, right? This is so important. The interesting thing is in Luke 24, when you get to verse two, it’s a Joseph Smith translation, and I’d like us to kind of look at that. So I’m in Luke 24 verses two through four in terms of the Joseph Smith translation. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher. This stone issue is an interesting issue in the Mark account on the way. They’re like, who’s going to roll the stone away from us? That’s like something, they’re like getting there early in the morning and they’re like, oh, wait, there’s a massive stone. In fact, archeologists believe the stone is going to weigh anywhere from 1500 to 3000 pounds. I’m sure Mary Magdalene, and they’re all in good shape. But that would’ve been tough.

  00:32:16 But I think the stone is a symbolic idea. Again, the stone closes things off, the stone seals the tomb. The women aren’t going to be able to move the stone. We all have these kind of sealed off things in our lives. We think that’s going to be impossible. And then what does it take? It takes angels. It takes, and it takes priesthood and power and authority because the stone gets rolled away, right? I mean, I think that is so awesome. So verse two, they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher and two angels standing by it in shining garments. So we have these authorized messengers of God. They’re standing there. And by the way, what a cool calling. Can you imagine that in pre mortality? Hi, I’m Hank. We’d like you to be the angel at the tomb. Will you accept that calling?

  00:33:06 Yeah, I will. Sure appreciate that. I mean, those two, we don’t know who they are. One day we will, but what a calling, what a privilege. So the two angels are standing there, and then it says they entered in. So the women go inside the sepulcher and not finding the body of the Lord Jesus. They were much perplexed thereabout. They’re just like, whoa, man. Verse four. And were a frighted and bowed down their faces to the earth. But behold the angels said unto them, I love this. Okay, angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. 2 Nephi 32:3. Therefore, they speak the words of Christ. Why seek ye the living among the dead? Now, we’ve been taught by Elder Bednar and others inspired questions. Why seek ye the living among the dead? What a question that would’ve penetrated their hearts, caused them to think then.

  00:34:00 And can you imagine over the course of years and decades later, as they taught others, as they reflected on that inspired question, why seek ye? Why you acting? And in other words, this goes back to my point. Why’d you come to the tomb? You guys brought spices? You were going to anoint his body? Wait a minute, verse six. He is not here but He is risen. And then John and Hank your point before, remember how he spoken to you when he was yet in Galilee? Remember? That’s right. So this idea of He is risen, this is the announcement, the glorious news of everything. He didn’t just come back from the dead, the resurrection. And I think some Protestant friends and some of our Christian Catholic friends, there’s maybe some nebulousness about what it is for Latter-day saints. The resurrection is simply the reuniting of the spirit and the body never to be separated again in its glorified, perfected state. Inseparably connected, no blood. Spirit and body. Immortal. Why seek ye the living among the dead? He’s not here. He is risen. Remember?

Hank Smith: 00:35:06 It’s like if they would’ve been paying attention, they would’ve gone to Galilee the moment he died. 

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:35:12 Exactly! Right! No, that’s my point. 

Hank Smith: 00:35:13 He told you he was going to meet you there.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:35:14 And I get this impression, everyone’s like weeping and wringing their hands and mourning and it’s over. And the women included who are there, and by the way, again, I’m not trying to criticize them. They’re there with the best intentions. They love the Savior. They’re going to anoint the body. And they might even be thinking, oh, the resurrection’s, this abstract philosophical concept one day. Yeah, it’s going to be, yeah, it’s in a thousand years. And then the next point, so you have authorized messengers. And of course Hank, you brought up a little earlier, one messenger, two messengers, all the Joseph Smith translations make Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John have two angels there. And I think, again, in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. And I think you also have a nice Old Testament, Deuteronomy 19, you got to have two witnesses.

  00:36:03 I think that’s kind of cool. And I think Deuteronomy 17, verse six, you got to have two witnesses. These two angels who are authorized messengers testify to the women. Why seek ye the living? He’s not risen, he’s not here. And then the imperative, go tell the others. You got to run and go tell the others. Now, I want to quote S. Kent Brown. I love this quote. The Galilean women become the initial witnesses of Jesus’s resurrection, learning of it from two divine messengers. Moreover, by carrying the words of the angels, they in effect become messengers or heralds of the news to others, including to the apostles. Love that the women become the witnesses to the witnesses. And then this is something I love too. All four gospels show Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary, the mother of James and Joseph, Salome and the other women disciples accompanying Jesus to his death anointing and bearing his body, viewing the empty tomb and experiencing his risen presence, that the message of the resurrection was first given to women, is regarded by many biblical scholars as compelling evidence for the historicity of the resurrection accounts. Had these texts been fabricated by overzealous male as disciples, they would not have included the witnesses of women in a society that rejected their legal witnesses. So I think that’s pretty neat, this idea of, again, women and then these divine messengers who are angels, who testified to them and then they testified to others.

John Bytheway: 00:37:37 If you were going to make this stuff up, you wouldn’t have these women be first. You would be as witnesses. Witnesses,

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:37:42 Yeah. No, that would’ve been such a breach in first century culture, the Mediterranean. Why do we care? So who’s Mary? Why do we care?

John Bytheway: 00:37:55 There were times when I went to the cemetery to just not really see my dad, but be there. And I had that impression, don’t come here. Go to the temple. You want to feel your mom and dad close. If they’ve passed, you don’t have to come here. I appreciate it. But go to the temple and that’s where the living are.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:38:18 I love that. Thank you. I think that’s so great, and I love that there’s been this subtle change in the temple. We don’t say who is dead anymore.

John Bytheway: 00:38:26 Because they’re living.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:38:28 And it always goes through my mind because they’re here. They’re they’re alive. I remember I was in a meeting with Elder Scott in Glendora, John. He said, the people on the other side of the veil do not like to be referred to as dead. And I thought, well, he would know. I don’t have firsthand experience with that, but he would. Okay, verse 11 and Luke 24. So they go to the apostles and the 11 and their words seem to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. That is so rude. Oh my word. The women are like, we saw angels. He’s not here. He’s risen there. There’s nothing better. We’re so excited. And they’re like, no. And in fact, I’m a Hebrew guy. I’m not a Greek guy, but I looked up the word for idle tales in the Greek, and it means this nonsense, an incredible story. Or twaddle. Twaddle. Yeah. You guys get to use the word twaddle in some. I want to challenge you to use it somewhere later today in a conversation that is twaddle. So you said that’s rude in a way, even ruder, if you understand the word like gosh. Yeah. They actually were like, no, that is nonsense. That is a hundred percent. Can’t be the, that can’t be the case.

Hank Smith: 00:39:46 How demoralizing to have the news of a lifetime that maybe have in your head how people are going to react. They’re going to be so excited. No.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:39:55 Yeah. Well, and I think, again, I want to place myself, I want to do a Lord is it I? So just like what am I not getting? I also want to think, so what are modern witnesses saying to me that I’m kind of brushing off as idle tales? Like you said, Hank, and how frustrating that would be for the messengers and any missionary who served a mission or anybody who’s taught the gospel to somebody where they haven’t accepted it or they’ve been like, yeah, that’s cool. Thanks so much. You remember that story when President Nelson gives the Book of Mormon to one of his associates and the guy comes back and says, Hey, thanks so much. And President Nelson says, what? That’s not the right response. Sorry. And he tried to give him the book and he goes, no, I’m giving you the book back because that’s the wrong response. And the guy goes back, reads it, and ends up getting baptized. Wow.

Hank Smith: 00:40:47 That’s the wrong response.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:40:48 That’s the wrong response. You don’t understand here, take the book back. You have to understand. So I think that’s a very interesting thing. And so by the way, Luke then records this super interesting thing where he then says, okay, Peter gets up, runs to the sepulcher, looks in, sees the linen clothes laid by themselves, and he departs and it says he’s wondering in himself that which was come to pass. Now that’s just a one verse little deal, but this is crazy amazing because John, of course the book of John will expand this account because now Luke, just so we kind of get going here in Luke chapter one verse two, Luke is in my view, he’s like a historian going to the different people collecting the accounts. He himself wasn’t an eyewitness, but he is authorized to do this. But he’s like interviewing people.

  00:41:39 And I have a feeling John might’ve read Luke and been like, no, it was good, but I got to tell this story. That’s good. But man, we got to expand that version. So can we go to John chapter 20 and let’s look now John 20. Mary Magdalene runs, we know this. Verse two, she runneth and cometh to Simon Peter and to the other disciples whom Jesus loved John and sayeth unto them, they’ve taken away the Lord out of the sepulcher and we know not where they have laid him. Now, her report, there isn’t the glorious report yet. So you can imagine that they’re going to be really upset with that. Something nefarious has gone on. They’re messing with a dead body.

Hank Smith: 00:42:23 Is John telling us here that Mary has yet to see the angels that are talked about in the other chapters? Are we just going to be okay with them not lining up?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:42:34 No. Okay. So in John 20 verse one, which I didn’t read, footnote D a Joseph Smith translation tells us, and two angels sitting thereon, but there’s no declaration yet. The stone’s just rolled away. She sees these angels that he’s not there. If you were asking me to harmonize it, I would say Mary went first, had this experience, goes back, tells Peter and John, they run, and then she then comes with the other women.

Hank Smith: 00:43:03 They’re difficult to harmonize and we can be okay with that.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:43:05 That’s okay. Exactly. But the Ross Baron School of Harmony Management is that Mary goes first, stone’s rolled away. There’s angels there, but we don’t hear any declaration. She is so perplexed and freaked out by it. She runs back, Peter and John run. She then comes back with the other women. Peter and John are now back home. Does that make sense? What I just said? Right. To me, that’s how that works. So they go, and then I love, John is such an interesting writer and he loves details, right? So they ran together and the other disciple did outrun Peter. What an interesting thing.

John Bytheway: 00:43:40 I’m faster than Peter. I just got to get that in the standard works forever and ever. Amen. I’m faster than Peter.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:43:48 I’m faster than Peter, and I want to let you know that I’m the beloved. Just so you guys know.

John Bytheway: 00:43:53 The disciple that Jesus loved, that doesn’t narrow it down that much unless because he kind of loves everybody. Unless it’s John talking about himself, which is fun. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:44:04 It is pretty funny. And he came first to the Sepulchre and he’s stooping down looking in, saw the linen clothes lying, yet went he not in. Now this is interesting. So he doesn’t go in then come with Simon Peter following him and went into the Sepulcher and seeth the linen clothes lie. Now I’m going to tell you, I’m going to quote, this is from Russell M. Nelson from April 1993. He says, “When Simon Peter and John the beloved ran to investigate the report that the body of their crucified Lord had been taken from the Sepulcher. John being young and younger and swifter arrived first, yet he did not enter. He deferred to the senior apostle who entered the Sepulcher first.”

  00:44:44 Elder Nelson makes the point that the Savior had taught them the order that there was an order in the kingdom and that John was, it wasn’t just a kind of a throwaway, he’s trying to help you understand the order. I think that’s interesting again, that President Nelson back in 1993 would’ve brought that up. And if you know anything about the way the 12 operate, and I think a lot of people do, it’s very orderly and they defer to the seniority and all those kinds of things. So anyway.

John Bytheway: 00:45:12 I’m so glad you said that because I remembered somebody saying that and I remembered, there you go now, now I’ve got the note there, but I remembered the church made a movie years ago called Lamb of God. And I think this coming up is like my favorite scene. But it shows Peter and John running in kind of slow-mo. And I remember John stopping and letting Peter go in, and for some reason I remembered that statement, but I didn’t know who said it about, I’ve always just said perhaps in respect to the senior apostle, but now I have the footnote to let Peter go on, which is wonderful that Jesus taught them even that sort of thing.

Hank Smith: 00:45:52 Is it okay to say Ross, that John sees Peter differently now?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:45:56 Exactly. He has a different role. And that the Savior, remember in previous, Come Follow Me. He’s talked about leadership and that if you’re, you’re the servant of all. And we know at the sacrament where Peter is sitting, he’s the servant in the trilenium, but the Savior has taught them this order and that John is respectful of that order. And then it says, and this is this other part of the Lamb of God movie in verse five, and he’s stooping down looking in. He saw the linen clothes lying yet went on in verse six, then come as Simon Peter following him, went into the sepulcher, seeth the linen clothes lie, and the napkin or the head cloth that was about his head not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself then went in also that other disciple. So John now comes in, which came first to the sepulcher, and he saw and believed. So John, tell us about the Lama. God, that part you like.

John Bytheway: 00:46:47 That’s my favorite scene. I have a hard time watching that movie because of the scouring and the crucifixion, but this is my favorite scene because they depict those clothes folded. And a thief never would’ve folded the clothes if they stole the body. They show these clothes so carefully folded. And boy, when they show that scene right there and the realization hits Peter and John of what has happened, oh, that’s, that’s the best scene in the whole thing. And I heard Brother Jeffrey Marsh talk about it occurred to him once as he was leaving the temple and folding his own clothes. He said, it occurred to me that these are the clothes that I will be buried in one day. And he was folding those clothes and it brought to mind all of this thing. I thought, wow, that’s a wonderful application of our belief in the resurrection.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:47:44 Let me add this. This is from D. Todd Christofferson from April 2014, and he makes this interesting comment about John. And he says, John apparently was the first to comprehend the magnificent message of resurrection. He writes that he saw and believed on, whereas the others to that point knew not the scripture that Jesus must rise again from the dead. That’s from April 2014. So Elder Christofferson seems to be implying, and I think the text says it at the end of verse eight, that John, he saw and believed, and I love your insight, John there from Brother Marsh about the clothing folded in a particular way that perhaps even they recognized and that no thief would’ve taken that away or done it that way.

John Bytheway: 00:48:34 Thief isn’t going to fold up the clothes.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:48:36 No, absolutely not. And the Romans certainly would not have done that. Then it’s interesting, verse 10, then the disciples went away again unto their own home. Great. So they go back. Now to me, this is again verse 11. This is where I think John is filling out now, John is of course dated the latest of all the gospels. And my opinion is that John read Matthew, Mark and Luke and felt good about them, but kind of wrote to a different audience and felt like there was some gaps that needed to be filled in. And he rewrites Now, so Mary now comes, but Mary stood without at the Sepulcher weeping, I’m in verse 11. So clearly she’s come back. So she ran and told Peter and John, they run and then she comes back. And then verse 12, she sees two angels. We’ve got the angels sitting there.

  00:49:26 And then they have this interaction with her. Woman, why weepest thou? verse 13. Because they’ve taken away, my Lord, I know not where they have laid him. She’s so upset. And then the Savior shows up and she doesn’t know it’s Jesus. Woman. Why weepest thou? He asked her. Whom seekest thou? this is called an iluso in literature in the first question that Jesus asks, remember when John testifies, that’s the lamb of God. And then James and Andrew are following and others, and he turns around and he says, whom seek ye? So now you got these nice bookends. And so he asks her whom seek ye? In effect whom seekest thou? And this is in fact the Lamb of God. So she doesn’t see him clearly. I’m keeping this theme of is he appearing to me and I’m not seeing him clearly? Is the Holy Ghost manifested to me? How many times have Hank, John, you guys have had students “How do I know when I’m feeling the Holy Ghost?” And I kind of want to say, you have, you are. I promise you have. I promise. Exactly. Yeah. You have. And I think this idea, so she’s standing in front of the resurrected Lord. She doesn’t see who he is. Well, what’s going on and why? So why don’t you think she sees him? Because it’s the same question that I have is why don’t the Nephites at Bountiful understand the voice.

Hank Smith: 00:50:45 It takes a while.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:50:45 Yeah, it takes a while. So there’s distractions. We’re in a worldly way. It’s unexpected. I just think, man, I’m reading my scriptures. I’m studying them. I want to see with spiritual eyes, I go to the temple. I don’t want to sleep through a session. I want to see with spiritual eyes. I go to the holy land with people. I want to see there, stuff that is more than, I guess, physical sight.

  00:51:12 And so we have to remove distractions. And I think what we do, and I think in come follow me, in a home centered, and I think a lot of parents love the idea, but they’re like, how do I do? And I always just say, create the environment for the Holy Ghost to be there. Well, how do I do that? Well, what do we do? You’re going to sing a hymn. We’re going to have a prayer. We’re going to be focused on text. We’re going to try not to be distracted. That’s going to allow us to see if you will, in a way that maybe we wouldn’t have otherwise. So what’s Mary distracted with? I think Mary’s distracted with, and again, I’m not trying to criticize her, to anoint his body.

Hank Smith: 00:51:51 Yeah. Where’s the body?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:51:52 Where’s the body? Yeah. 

John Bytheway: 00:51:53 And where did you take him so that I can finish what I came here to do. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:51:57 Yeah. She probably doesn’t want him buried in some unknown location.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:52:02 That’s all legitimate, right? Those are all legitimate concerns. But my point with the text in Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21, is that it’s turning everything on its head because no one gets it. So I’m not just blaming Mary the 11 don’t get it. She doesn’t get it. The two guys on the road to Emmaus don’t get it. No one gets it. And then of course, we all know this so powerful. Verse 16, Jesus saith unto her, Mary. she turned herself and saith unto him Rabboni, which is to say Master. And then I have this quote from James Faust. This is from April 1985. One, only one person could speak her name that way. With that single word, all doubt, confusion and uncertainty was swept away. Mary in that instant came to the grand sublime realization that he for whom she mourned, even Jesus that was crucified, had risen from the dead, just as the angels early that very morning had testified.

  00:53:05 He is risen. I love that. And the first words at the opening of this dispensation were Joseph, I always say, what does the Book of Mormon open with? Well, Nephi, right, it’s his name I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents. It opens with his name. This dispensation opened with Joseph. And I think it’s so interesting that the resurrection is announced by Jesus with an individual’s name. Mary. And now she knows, and like President Faust says, all doubt, confusion and uncertainty swept away with one word. Wow. So good. Then this famous thing, Jesus saith unto her, touch me not. The Joseph Smith translation says, hold me not for I’m not yet ascended to my father. Now side note, and I can’t help myself, but when Jesus is on the cross, some of our evangelical friends, we’ll use the idea of when he says to the thief on the cross, today you’re going to be with me in paradise.

  00:54:06 And they’ll use that to say, see, all he had to do is confess Jesus. And he was in, and I had an interesting interaction with some theology guys down in Southern California, and this one guy brought it up. He said, well, clearly all we have to do is confess Jesus. Brought up the thief on the cross and I said, do you believe heaven is where the father is? And he said, yes. I said, awesome. I said, well, then where he promised where the thief would go, wasn’t heaven. And the guy said, oh, that can’t be. I said, please turn to John 20. So we went to John 20 and I said, Jesus three days later has not yet ascended to heaven. So clearly that’s not what he was promising the thief. It’s an interesting thing. We all need to kind of make that connection. I like that connection from our point of view. She then, verse 18, she goes and tells the disciples she’d seen the Lord. In other words. Now again, the emissary, she’s the witness. She goes,

Hank Smith: 00:55:02 When I was a kid, I did not like that verse. Touch me not, touch me not. I thought, what’s wrong with him? I remember asking my primary teachers, why can’t she touch him? And they would say, we don’t know. Can we just go get your parents and have him not be here anymore? I just say, I think he should wait until he can be touched. And it’s nice when you read some of the other translations of that verse, it’s not, don’t touch me. You got to let me go. You’re holding onto me and I’ve got to go.

John Bytheway: 00:55:29 We know it’s not bad for you to touch a resurrected being because when Jesus goes to the righteous in the new world, he lines them up.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:55:36 But that’s going to be one of my themes in the resurrection accounts, is that not only is it okay, I believe he requires it.

Hank Smith: 00:55:44 Yeah, he wants it.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:55:45 It’s not just, okay, this is critical. So I love I… Thank you for sharing that, Hank. That’s pretty cool. I know we don’t know why, but this idea in the Joseph Smith translation is, no, no, no. Don’t restrain me. You’ve got your hug in. But I got stuff to do. I got to go. So that’s the John edition of Peter running to the tomb. We get John going, we get that, all that thing. Then we get Mary. Now she’s the first person to see a resurrected being. Now, by the way, interesting thought here. No one actually sees the resurrection. They see the evidence of the resurrection.

Hank Smith: 00:56:21 They see the resurrected Lord.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:56:22 They see the resurrected. Exactly. We have no record of any mortal seeing Jesus resurrecting, but we see him resurrected. So I just think that’s an interesting kind of thing if we are careful in our text here. Okay, now let’s go back to Luke 24 because Luke will add a story that Mark alludes to, but that is expanded in Luke 24, which I think is a fabulous story and one of my favorites. And it’s the road to Emmaus. Now we have struggled knowing where Emmaus actually is and there’s lots of debate. And at the Jerusalem Center, when we take students, we actually don’t take them to Emmaus because we’re not convinced we know where it’s, where Emmaus is.

Hank Smith: 00:57:08 There’s a place there called Emmaus.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:10 Correct. There is a place called Emmaus. We’re not just, but

Hank Smith: 00:57:12 It could have been named much later.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:14 Exactly. So we’re not, there’s some argument about that. We don’t want to get that. So these two guys, I mean Luke 24, verse 13, they’re going to Emmaus, which is not super far, but it’s 12 kilometers. So a little over six miles, seven miles from Jerusalem. In verse 15 it came to pass while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. Wow. Verse 16. But their eyes were holden. And if you look at your footnote, they have the Greek, their eyes were restrained. I think that’s another interesting question, why that would be the case that they should not know him. So he asked them, what’s going on? What manner of communications are you guys having? Why are you so upset? What? Yeah, why are you so upset? And that I think it’s verse 18, and one of them whose name was Cleophas, that says John 19:25.

  00:58:02 Many people, and I tend to agree with this, that’s Jesus’s uncle. Oh, really? So that is Mary’s sister’s husband. Isn’t that interesting? John 19:25. So that’s the uncle of the Savior. And I think it’s interesting that his eyes are restrained. And that’s what that reference in footnote 18 A John 19:25, and he says, are you a stranger in Jerusalem? You have not known the things which come to pass then these days. And he’s like, what things? What a great teacher. No, what a great teacher. What do you guys talk about? Share, share, share, share, share more. And then they talk about Jesus of Nazareth, a prophet mighty indeed. I’m in verse 19, et cetera, right? The chief priest and our rulers delivered him. He’s been crucified. We trusted, look at this. Verse 21. We trusted it had been he, which should have redeemed Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:58:52 Oh, these poor folks.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:58:53 See, that’s sad. He did redeem Israel to a certain degree. There’s a veil. They don’t see it clearly. And again, my theme today, what are my erroneous expectations? What don’t I get? I’m back to that. What am I thinking? Or I have an expectation. The expectation doesn’t get fulfilled. It’s a false expectation. So then I get all crazy, right?

Hank Smith: 00:59:17 In my mind, I’ve always seen this walk to Emmaus as kind of like, I’ve lost my faith and I’m giving up. I’m walking, I’m going home. I thought it was true. I’m going home. And then the Savior meets you on that road and says, let’s, let’s have a talk about what you thought should have happened versus what did happen. And it’s kind of interesting. You were probably just going to get to this guy, Jesus, who knew nothing about this. You know what things, I don’t know anything about this. The moment they say we thought it was him, he’s like, you fools right? 

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:59:50 He calls him fools. I was once teaching a seminary class. This was an early morning seminary class, years and years and years ago. A volunteer. And I kicked a kid out of class and the mom called me later and said, Jesus would never kick anyone out of class. And I said, well, he would’ve kicked your kid out of class. Now I want you guys to know I called him, I told him I loved him. And by the way, he never missed a class. We became fast friends, but he needed to be kicked out of class, if that makes sense. And I think it’s interesting that the Savior, like you said, they’re like, oh, what things? Who’s this guy? And then boom, he just starts in on them. Oh, fools. Slow of heart to believe in, verse 25, all that the prophets have written.

  01:00:27 Now, there’s something you need to notice here. Verse 26 is Jesus talking ought not Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into his glory? This is the first time in Luke that Jesus refers to himself as Christ. All the times before that others have said he’s the Christ. And the word Christ has been brought up, but not in his own mouth. And I think it’s interesting that again, he’s kind of talking third person, but he is referring to himself. He is the anointed one. And then verse 27, and beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them all the scriptures, the things concerning him. I think it’s interesting that he says, Moses, the law and the prophets and all the prophets, and later he’ll talk about the Psalms.

  01:01:16 I think you know this, but the acronym that Jews use for the Hebrew Bible is the Tanakh. And the Tanakh is TNK, which is Torah, which is the law. The N is Nevi’im, which is the prophets, and the K is Ketuvim which are the writings like the Psalms and those kinds of things. It’s interesting that he took the whole text. And can you imagine him sitting there as he weaves this beautiful tapestry. As they’re walking, he’s weaving it through and making connections for them in the law and in the prophets and in the writings, in the Psalms, concerning Him and how he had to have been crucified. And your point, Hank, they’re going home. We thought he was going to redeem Israel. He didn’t. And Jesus is teaching them from the scriptures that in fact they had a misaligned expectation. And that this in fact had to happen.

Hank Smith: 01:02:15 Should have happened. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:02:16 Exactly. Needed to happen. And in fact, again, Old Testament connection, the very first thing that God does for Adam and Eve after the fall, the very first thing is he makes them coats of skins because they have a fake covering on, they have plants covering them. And we all know, I think we know, again, the word for atonement in the Hebrew Bible is translated from a Hebrew word, which means to cover. And so they have a fake covering on. So the very first thing the Lord God does for Adam and Eve, he gets coats of skin. Why? Because blood has to be shed. An innocent thing has to die for them to be properly covered. So the very first thing that Adam and Eve have happened is they’re going to be pointed to Jesus Christ. I’m sure he is talking about pre-mortality, mortality, post-mortality and how this had to happen. Just like Psalm.

Hank Smith: 01:03:06 Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, exactly is probably going through all of them.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:03:10 And Adam and Eve. Yeah, coats of skins. An innocent had to die for you to be properly covered. I love that. He’s teaching them from the scriptures. And I want to say one other thing too about this. He expounded unto them in all the scriptures. He didn’t use just one verse. I think sometimes we’ll use one particular verse, and I love that he expounds all the scriptures. All the scriptures are one in his hand, Ezekiel 37, he’s going to take it all. He’s going to take the Torah, he’s going to take the Navi’in, he’s going to take the Ketuvim and he’s going to weave them together.

  01:03:43 And I think we as Latter-day Saints need to be careful to not violate that principle. Paul, for example, first Corinthians 15:29, Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead. If the dead rise, not at all, why are they then baptized for the dead? Sometimes Latter-day Saints will say, well, Paul is giving a sermon on work for the dead. No, Paul’s giving a sermon on the resurrection. He’s using baptism for the dead as evidence for the fact that there was a resurrection. So we should be careful to contextualize, if that makes sense, and to expound all the scriptures. So I love that.

John Bytheway: 01:04:14 And I think that it reminds me of 3 Nephi 26 when Jesus does the same thing over there. He did expound all things even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:04:26 Well, in 3 Nephi 23:14, and now it came to pass that when Jesus had expounded all the scriptures in one

John Bytheway: 01:04:32 That’s the one I was thinking of. In one.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:04:34 which they had written. He commanded them that they should teach the things which he had expounded, unto them. That would’ve been a nice meeting to be in. That would’ve been a great meeting. He’s going to make connections and weave it all together. And when he’s done, your jaw’s going to be open and thinking, wow, that was amazing.

John Bytheway: 01:04:52 Please join us for part two of this podcast.