Hank Smith: 00:00:00 Coming up in this episode on followHIM.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:00:03 Of course. When I was serving in a far north part of Georgia and heard about a church where they hold rattlesnakes, I thought, that’s for me. I have to attend this church. I have to be there. It was a small congregation that they followed a movement that’s called The Church of God with Signs Following. It was a tiny, really quaint but beautiful little chapel that is buried in the woods. I went along with three other missionaries on a Saturday night.

Hank Smith: 00:00:33 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my co-host John Bytheway, who is very edifying. Now, John, I say that you’re edifying because in section 50 of the Doctrine & Covenants, it says that which doth not edify is not of God. I flipped it, John, that which edifies is of God. That is you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:54 I will try to live up to that. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:00:58 We try to be edifying here at followHIM.

John Bytheway: 00:01:00 Mm-hmm. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:01:01 John we’re joined today by Dr. Aaron Franklin. Aaron, welcome to followHIM.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:01:06 I’m thrilled to be here. Honored really to be with you two.

Hank Smith: 00:01:09 We are lucky to have you. I think you’re gonna bless a lot of lives today, including John and I. John, we’ve moved the saints to Ohio. We’ve had some wonderful revelations so far, and then we hit 49 and 50 talking about Leman Copley. All of a sudden we get these beautiful verses on light and truth. Does anything come to mind? I know you’ve read these before.

John Bytheway: 00:01:35 Four years ago I took a note that someone said, we’re not living in a tare free zone. There’s wheat and there’s tares. I love the way the Lord uses light to explain truth, light and truth to enlighten us. So there’s some beautiful teachings about light, about the Shakers, inventors of the salt and pepper shakers. No, the Shakers were a religious group. He uses that kind of backdrop to teach us about how to discern light. It’s really good, so I’m looking forward to that.

Hank Smith: 00:02:08 I’m pretty impressed how in every section of the Doctrine & Covenants it seems the Lord can take any situation and make it about repentance. He says this is a good situation. Let’s talk for a second. By the way, have we mentioned repentance lately? Aaron, as you’ve looked at 49 and 50, what are you looking forward to? This is gonna be interesting because this is a specialty of yours.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:02:29 It is. I appreciate you pointing that out. I love light. I love talking about it. This is definitely a part of the hallmark doctrine set that we get about light in the Doctrine & Covenants. It comes in the midst of a lot of growth and turmoil and newness. It’s so impactful to see the prophet Joseph bring out through these revelations such powerful, intricate truths. The Lord is always taking the opportunity to teach. I love these two sections. When you reached out and told me that we were gonna talk about Section 49 and 50, I was thrilled. There’s so much both contextually and doctrinally stripping some of that context to apply more modern thinking. The overarching message that I get is truth and light, not just because I love light and we get a little insight into some of this powerful doctrine, but because I really think both sections talk about how we find truth, what we do with the truth that we have and how we grow that truth in the way that we live our lives and the way that we address any potential misconceptions or newness of information that might come up our way.

  00:03:49 Everything is part of that journey. How we discovered initially truth and light and how we use that to grow that truth and light as we progress

Hank Smith: 00:03:58 And imagine this. This is coming from a 25-year-old farmer in a rural town of Ohio and here we have Aaron who studies this basically as an entire career and he’s looking at something that this farmer wrote and goes, this is amazing. Now John, Aaron has not been with us before. In fact, he’s a little bit new to you and I. He comes highly recommended by a couple of our guests, so I’m excited to get to know him. Do you have some information on him? Did we do a background check? Did we call his friends and enemies?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:04:31 If you didn’t, you should have clearly.

John Bytheway: 00:04:32 We did and yeah, it’s one of those really fun bios to read. Hank, he’s a professor of electrical engineering and computer engineering and chemistry. Wow. I was in the wrong line in the Premortal existence.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:04:49 Just enough to scare anyone away John.

Hank Smith: 00:04:52 Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:04:52 Scare anyone away.

John Bytheway: 00:04:55 He’s not a professor of electrical and computer engineering and chemistry at Mayberry Community College. He is at Duke. This is amazing. Aaron’s from Phoenix, he earned bachelor’s degree from Arizona State University and a Doctorate from Purdue, both in electrical engineering. Electrical engineering. Sounds perfect for somebody that’s going to talk to us about light. Worked at IBM as a research scientist studying nanotechnology. He and his wife Leanne Walters Franklin, are parents of three children, reside in North Carolina. It’s fun to be able to say there are some really bright people who are solid committed believers. Here’s another one. So welcome.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:05:41 Really kind of you. I appreciate that, John.

Hank Smith: 00:05:44 This is gonna be a lot of fun. I just have a couple of questions. We were talking before, how did you come in contact with the church? I know that you weren’t born into the church, right?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:05:55 Yeah. I joined the church as a young teenager. I was attending a mostly Catholic mass at the time with friends at school, not a religious family. In fact, no memory of ever talking about religion in any respect in my home until I was that 12, 13 years old. My grandmother who and my stepfather’s mom, she was a member of the church and she was such a light to our family. Had learned from my mom, my mom was exasperated, I don’t know what to do with this kid. He keeps wanting to go to church. He keeps bugging me to go to a church and my grandma, we called her Grandma Honey, this totally appropriate name for her that sparked something in her and she took us to the Mesa Temple Visitor Center. The rest of my siblings and my mom were like, oh, okay. I mean we’ll do this I guess, but I was the kid that snuck over to the corner and filled out the contact card for the missionaries to come to our house and they came in and anyway, the rest is history as they say. A whole lot of other ins and outs and movements in between my life has been richly blessed by the gospel and by, as you noted, a farm boy from 200 plus years ago who came up with things that if you look at them in in the spirit of truth, per our discussion today are perfectly aligned with all of the other truth that we obtain scientifically and otherwise.

Hank Smith: 00:07:14 I love starting out this way. Just grasp the reality of, well, just the wow of where this comes from and I’m sure as we walk through it, we’re gonna have more moments like that and I hope we get to learn more about you Aaron, as we go. Three kids, right? Three kids, and I know one’s on a mission in…

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:07:30 Riverside, California. She is Spanish speaking. She’s been out just over nine months, but who’s counting that? She’s coming home the day before Thanksgiving.

Hank Smith: 00:07:39 Yep.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:07:40 And a senior and a sophomore in high school. My two boys.

Hank Smith: 00:07:43 Oh, that’s wonderful. We do have a lot of listeners out there in Riverside, so watch out for Hermana Franklin.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:07:49 Indeed.

Hank Smith: 00:07:50 Tell her her dad loves her.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:07:53 Please.

Hank Smith: 00:07:54 I’m gonna read from the Come Follow Me, Manual. I love this opening paragraph. The Savior is our Good Shepherd. He knows that sometimes sheep wander and the wilderness has many perils, so he lovingly leads us to the safety of his doctrine. He leads us away from dangers such as false spirits which have gone forth in the earth deceiving the world. That’s from section 50 verse two, following him often means letting go of incorrect ideas or traditions. This was true for Leman Copley and others in Ohio. They had accepted the restored gospel but still held onto some beliefs that just weren’t correct. In section 49, the Lord declares truths that corrected Leman’s previous beliefs about topics such as marriage and the Savior’s Second Coming and when the Ohio converts receive spirits which they could not understand, the Lord taught them how to discern true manifestations of the Spirit. The Good Shepherd is patient with us, his little children who must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth that which is of God is light. I am excited. Aaron, how do you wanna start?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:09:01 I’d like to do something a little different perhaps than some of your traditional styles. We will go into each section individually, but I’m hoping to go into the light and truth side first. If we can dig a little bit into that, then we can use it to identify other aspects that we learn about light and truth. So if you’re good with that, we’ll jump into 50, 23 through 25. I’ll go ahead and start by just reading those three verses. Usually the most famous if a verse can be famous right? in the church. So 50:24 is on the top 10 list I think of fame particularly for the Doctrine & Covenants, but I do think the verse before and after are just as important to wrap it in, in order to understand it completely. Starting with 23 and that which doth not edify is not of God or is not John Bytheway according to Hank’s introduction and is darkness.

  00:09:58 That which is of God is light and he that receiveth light and continue within God receiveth more light and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. And again verily I say unto you and I say it, that you may know the truth that you may chase darkness from among you. A few principles about light that I’d like to just set the stage with, these are scientific principles of light that have such powerful corollary to what we learn about light in the gospel and spiritual sense. So first light cannot be stored, it has to be generated. There’s no medium by which you can actually hold light. One of the basic principles of light is that it is all moving and moving as one of the fastest known sources of energy in the universe. Secondly, light must be generated from some other form of energy.

  00:10:57 Usually for instance, in the classic of a flashlight, we have a battery that stores electrical energy that is converted into light as another form of energy and then third darkness is nothing but the absence of light. Darkness actually does not have a definitive substance of its own. You don’t have a dark switch when you go into a room. It’s just a light switch. It’s just whether or not the light is there and how much of the light is there and where the light is pointed because that is the fourth point light has directionality. This one, you could get a quantum physicist here and start talking about how well, but it kind of goes everywhere and it’s kind of everywhere and nowhere at the same time until you read it. We’re not gonna get into that level of detail, but the reality of light in the way we interact with it is that it is directional.

  00:11:47 It’s why with our shadows for instance that exist, that directionality can also be really important with regards to light and truth and the way that we obtain it. A verse before we break out a couple pieces of these 23 to 25, there’s a verse that shows up in John 1 of the intro to John’s gospel that is repeated almost word for word in Doctrine & Covenants 88:49. In John 1:5 it says, and the light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not. When I first started doing a deeper study on light, this was one of the verses that stood out that I did not feel like I understood what it was talking about. Given it more thought over time. I come up with a little analogy that makes sense to me, so maybe to some others it will. I think of it like this.

  00:12:35 If I am in a dark room and someone comes into that room and shines a flashlight right at me, I will know there is a light there, but it will do nothing to improve my comprehension of what else is in the room. The light is shown, but comprehension has not been increased because of its presence. Whereas if I then grab that flashlight, take hold of it myself from the person who’s shown it on me and use it to illuminate my surroundings, I now am gaining greater comprehension of both what is around me and how to navigate what is around me going forward. This is the way I think about light being truth as well. We’re gonna have in section 49, 50 some truth bombs as it were for people of this 1831 time when the church was in its infancy still and growing through some struggles. There’s going to be a bright light shining in the face of those who receive some of this. The question becomes the invitation from the Lord and the question is, will they lay hold upon that light? Will they allow it to edify them and illuminate their surroundings going forward, so will they receive the light?

John Bytheway: 00:13:57 I love the word receive here. I think about sometimes when we read a scripture they received not the gospel, it doesn’t sound fair. Received scripturally sounds more like accept. I think of it as a wedding reception where you receive guests, so receiving light is letting it in as you’re saying in verse 24 there when you receive light. It reminds me also of the parable of the sower. He who received seed into good ground. They received it more than just hearing about it. They received it and let it in. Kind of like you did at the visitor center. You were open and received it and you wanted to receive more

Hank Smith: 00:14:37 And then use it, to look at life.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:14:39 Yeah, maybe a brief comment on that, John, because I love that thought. I often think about what it takes to receive light. At least two major things come to my mind that one is choosing to believe that light, that truth has been offered and then living it, believing and then faith, which is actually taking action in your life based upon what that light has brought to you. Like that flashlight, it’s nothing if we don’t grab it and use it to eliminate the surroundings.

John Bytheway: 00:15:10 I love that explanation that you gave because a a light shine in your face you can’t see, but if you have the light and you called it directional, it can illuminate and you can comprehend more. I thank you for that.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:15:26 Yeah, I appreciate that. On that front of comprehending more, what 24 offers is this formula for how that light can become brighter. The one piece to it is to continue in God, so the question of course, what is met by continuing in God? My perspective on this is this is subtle, this is not, oh, and if you do something else that is major, that is extreme, that is an extraordinary sacrifice, then you may amplify that light. It’s a continuation and I think oftentimes in our lives we have major pivot points or spiritual moments that define our core truth and testimony. We can start to feel a little lost if it’s been some distance from those, but continuing in God is a matter of holding on to the things he has given us whenever they’ve come. I love this quote from Elder Bednar and he, he talks about this a lot and does so beautifully in his books about receiving truth and and light. This is from General Conference 2011. He said, the gradual increase of light radiating from the rising sun is like receiving a message from God, line upon line, precept upon precept. Most frequently revelation comes in small increments over time and is granted according to our desire, worthiness and preparation, desire, worthiness, preparation. None of that sounds like our extreme, magnificent, outrageous sacrifice that ends up bringing about this greater light. It’s continuing.

Hank Smith: 00:16:56 I like that. In my experience that’s how it’s been. A little bit at a time, but what does the Lord say in Section 121? Like dew. You couldn’t just stare at the grass and say, okay, where’s the moment where the dew forms? It just slowly forms.

John Bytheway: 00:17:12 We even have a hymn about the dew don’t we? As the dew gently distilleth or something.

Hank Smith: 00:17:19 The Lord says, the doctrine of the priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. Beautiful.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:17:27 It’s beautiful. I love that tie in. Last comment on this framing around light and truth before we dive into section 49 is the question of the perfect day. What is the perfect day? To me, there’s two answers here and one of them as a bit of a nail biter we’ll hold till the very end of our discussion today because I think it caps everything we’ll talk about really well. The other is I think of the perfect day being what’s described in 1 John 3:2 in the New Testament that talks about the Savior’s return and when he appears we shall be like him, so we’ll see him as he is because we have become like him. Think about the ability to see the Savior back to our flashlight analogy, the Savior comes, he is the light of the world. There is nothing that could be brighter, both in terms of what we think about visually and what we think about in terms of all the other implications of light. The only way you would see something that is bright is if you have prepared yourself, like not sitting in a dark room and then suddenly walking out into the sunshine, but being so familiar with being in the presence of that light and truth that you will see it when it arrives. That is the Savior himself returns.

John Bytheway: 00:18:39 As recently as last night, I, speaking to a group of young women, I told them, if you don’t remember anything else from my talk tonight, I want you to remember three words: continue in God. I like to apply that phrase to those in a faith crisis. Oddly enough, some folks, when they are struggling with something, they discontinue God instead of continuing in God. They want more light, more knowledge, but they unplug from the source of all light. If you’re having something you’re struggling with or wrestling with, continue in God because the promise is, you’ll receive more light if you continue in God. My simplistic mind says, what does that mean? You continue to pray and ask for help. You continue to read the scriptures where the Spirit is and it will enlighten you even if there’s something that you’re struggling with. Don’t discontinue God. You’re shutting off the source of all light. Continue in God. Those three words mean a lot to me.

Hank Smith: 00:19:48 Joseph Smith History. Aaron, you could tell me how I could tie this in probably thick darkness gathered around me and it seemed to me for a time I was doomed to sudden destruction. But John exerting all my powers to call upon God, continuing in God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me and then skipping down a little bit just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:20:15 I love that relating back to this operation of light, that darkness not being something in and of itself. You think there’s usually a missed effect to the presence of darkness as in Lehi’s dream, something that captures or blocks light because of its presence and so there’s no chasing light away. There’s only chasing darkness away or somehow impeding light by the presence of a bushel or something to the effect, right?

Hank Smith: 00:20:41 Yeah. I love it. Chase darkness from among you. John, you’ve heard me say this before S. Michael Wilcox, one of our guests, he says that there’s the pen of heaven. Not only is just great principles, it’s just well said, continue within God receiveth more light and that light grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day. There’s a beautiful cadence about it.

John Bytheway: 00:21:04 Yeah. Do you guys remember these? Oh love ’em. These teachings of the presidents of the church. Let me read what President Gordon B. Hinckley said. We of this church have been given a marvelous promise by the Lord said he that which is of God is light and he that receiveth light and continue with God receiveth more light and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. Gordon B. Hinckley, what a remarkable statement that is. It is one of my favorite verses of scripture. It speaks of growth, of development of the march that leads toward godhood. I just love that. That was one of his favorite verses and that he would say that that farm boy had the pen of heaven, right Hank?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:21:50 Commenting on that from the context of this, one of the things that I found so powerful in the specifics of how section 50 was received, that it’s talked about as being several brethren present, including Parley P. Pratt, who discusses that, and this happened with many of Joseph’s revelations, that this was dictated in the presence of these witnesses at a pace that allowed for longhand transcription with no request for things to be read back. Sometimes we lose sight of how miraculous that is. I love the Joseph Smith Papers project and things like this. Like I, I’m not a historian. I’m in the kind of the sideline appreciator of this amazing type of work that’s been come to light. A favorite thing for me through this year’s study of the Doctrine & Covenants is to go onto that Joseph Smith Papers website and look at whatever the original transcripts are if they have them for some of these revelations because of course there’s been small changes grammatically to correct and put things into a more digestible verse like cadence and whatnot. But you find virtually any of these most powerful doctrines that have beauty as you were talking about, Hank and they are almost always word for word. That is how they were scrawled to the page audibly dictated by a 25-year-old prophet in the middle of the western frontier of 1831. I mean it’s truly amazing.

Hank Smith: 00:23:14 Oh, I’m excited about this. Now John, Aaron did not ask us to do this. I honestly didn’t even know about it when we asked him, but two books. One, 2021, the Spiritual Physics of Light, How We See, Feel, and Know Truth. Dr. Aaron Franklin and then Aaron. There’s a new book coming out.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:23:37 There is. So kind of you to bring up Hank. Yeah. There is a book that will just have been released here. It’s called What Is Truth? Navigating a World of Faith, Science and Noise. Again, one of these no such thing as just coincidence that you invited me to come and discuss 49 and 50 with you about folks in the early church who are navigating their own ways to truth sorting through some of the noise of their time. It’s something that’s been very fresh on my mind. It’s kind of you to bring up. My greatest hope is only that those who are feeling the pressure of a world filled with information and misinformation will find something that may be helpful in some of the perspective I offer about how we could navigate that world. Holding on to gospel truths and finding more to be brighter and brighter.

Hank Smith: 00:24:32 I love the title, What is Truth? Navigating a World of Faith, Science and Noise. John, that sounds like our guests. They bring faith in science and you and I bring noise.

John Bytheway: 00:24:45 A beautiful noise. A beautiful noise. I like sideline appreciators. I’m like, yep, that’s me. Yeah. I just sit on the sideline and go, wow. This reminds me of a dad joke guys I learned when I took physical science class that light is not only a wave but it’s a particle. Am I getting that right? And that photons have mass and the dad joke is, did you know that photons have mass? They do. I didn’t even know they were Catholic. So that’s the dad joke.

Hank Smith: 00:25:20 And Aaron was attending Catholic mass as a kid. So we’ve come full circle.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:25:23 It has indeed. That’s so perfect.

Hank Smith: 00:25:26 Alright, what do you wanna do next Aaron?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:25:28 How about we jump into 49 if you like. I know oftentimes you like starting with a section heading read that. That wouldn’t hurt and we can break apart some of the historical context.

John Bytheway: 00:25:39 49’s heading is particularly important I think.

Hank Smith: 00:25:44 This is one of those you better know the background or else you’re gonna say what are we talking about? Aaron, do you want us to take that on? Do you wanna take that on?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:25:53 If you would like to read it, that’d be terrific.

Hank Smith: 00:25:55 Sure. Alright. This is a revelation to Sidney, Parley, Leman Copley. Copley. We’ve talked about before March of 31. Leman had embraced the gospel but still held to some of the teachings of the Shakers, which the longer name is United Society Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing to which he had formally belonged. Some of the beliefs of the Shakers were that Christ’s Second Coming had already occurred and he had appeared in the form of a woman, Ann Lee. John, I’ve made it halfway. Do you wanna read the rest?

John Bytheway: 00:26:29 Yes. They did not consider baptism by water essential. They rejected marriage and believed in a life of total celibacy. Some Shakers also forbade the eating of meat. In prefacing this revelation, Joseph Smith History states, in order to have a more perfect understanding on the subject, I inquired of the Lord and received the following. The revelation refutes some of the basic concepts of the Shaker group. The aforementioned brethren took a copy of the revelation to the Shaker community near Cleveland, Ohio and read it to them in its entirety. But it was rejected.

Hank Smith: 00:27:08 Didn’t go well.

John Bytheway: 00:27:10 Yes, yeah.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:27:10 Yeah. It did not go well. And some reasons behind that are worth exploring. First of all, I love that Joseph is seeking a more perfect knowledge even when we feel really convinced of things. There’s more to validate or to be open to learning, particularly from the Lord when it comes to a topic. So I really love that. I’m gonna do something a little odd here guys. It shouldn’t be odd, but I am going to be a Shaker apologist because just sitting here on the page, this description of beliefs that truly sound odd to us based on what we know of our own doctrines and some of the behaviors of their worship may have seemed a little odd. That’s why they got this name, which in some respects could be considered a sort of a negative connotation of calling them Shakers by virtue of how they worship.

  00:27:55 Similar to Mormons and Mormonism that had been used with some negative connotation at the time. But here’s why I wanna be a Shaker apologist. Think about these people. Imagine the sacrifice that they made in their search for truth and light. Celibacy, which had its obvious challenges with respect to the overall growth and retention of the religion itself. But what a sacrifice that you don’t find across most any religion. Many of them were vegetarians, which is a big sacrifice for some of us. They had a belief that Jesus had come back. This is not a popular belief that he had. His Second Coming had occurred in the form of a woman she had lived in the 17 hundreds. She was no longer alive. That couldn’t have been popular. That couldn’t have been something that that brought them a lot of friends when they had brought up their own beliefs.

  00:28:46 Heaven knows we understand what that’s like when you might bring up something that is within our religion that is a standout without being able to provide a lot of explanation. And when you actually look into the United Society of Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing, you find that they had some sound explanations for why that doctrine was there. It wasn’t just that a woman named Ann Lee showed up and said, no, you will believe me. They had reasons around what brought them to that place. I’m impressed with them. And in fact, one of the comments that is in the history, deeper history you can find on the Church’s Gospel Library at four different sections. It has a quote or a paraphrase from the leader of the Shakers who basically was rebuking Leman Copley because he was trying to go to a lightweight religion. He was trying to go to something that was so easy. Oh, you’re gonna go join those Mormons because you can’t handle what’s required here.

Hank Smith: 00:29:42 That is so different. Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:29:43 Right? How different is that? I mean we’re used to the opposite. People look at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and say, oh that looks heavy. That’s a big lift. And here we have the exact opposite. So these folks are so committed. They’re so invested in their path to truth that they are doing things that make the Mormons of the day look like they’re not really fully in.

Hank Smith: 00:30:08 Wow.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:30:08 On this whole religion thing.

Hank Smith: 00:30:10 Do you remember two weeks ago, Dr. Baughman was here, Shima, she talked about mocking and how mocking is a tool of the adversary. I love what Aaron just did. He said, okay, you could easily, if you don’t wanna look into it, you could mock some of these beliefs of these people. But if you actually look, these are people who are searching for light and truth. I like that practice. I wanna practice that more.

John Bytheway: 00:30:37 The longer I live, the more I think people are just doing the best they can. I love that they were trying to connect with God with what they knew. I love that the Lord comes out and says, here’s how you can discern things I want you to understand we’re gonna see that again and again in section 50. I want you to understand. You’re right Hank. I know I need to repent of that. A lot of times our critics will take a few things and hit those.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:31:07 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:31:08 We don’t wanna be guilty of the same thing.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:31:10 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:31:11 With other faith traditions. Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:31:14 So well said. In the specifics of the context of this section, you have Sidney and Leman and eventually Parley. I think we can kind of cover what actually happened there in just a few moments after we go through some of the doctrines because it’s important what happened. But from a high level they went and they read the revelation and it was not received. But going into a few pieces of the revelation, if we can, to me the verse that stood out the most of what is a collection of some really pointed teaching and some really powerful invitation is verse two. It’s both related to the context but also to our day. So if I can read that, behold I say unto you that they desire to know the truth in part but not all for they are not right before me and must need repent.

  00:32:02 This is a banner level headline to me of our day. How many of the folks living in our day, both within and without the and outside the church want to know the truth in part but not all. I mean look back to Joseph seeking a more perfect understanding even as the prophet of the church and having a pretty good sense of what needed to be said to this community. He recognized that he may not have the full picture. We think about this a lot in the scientific world. I often tell my PhD students working in my lab to be open-eyed and open-minded because it’s rare that the most important things you discover are the things that you set out to discover. There’s so many examples throughout history of this. You’ve got people like Alexander Fleming who was not searching for some new medicine or antibiotic to treat the certain conditions, but he noticed mold killing bacteria in a Petri dish.

  00:33:00 And thank goodness because it led to the discovery of penicillin, which has been one of the most lifesaving medications that we have. There’s a great quote I love on this front. This is from Isaac Asimov. He’s a roboticist. He was an old author of sci-fi. He said the most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries is not eureka, but that’s funny. It’s so telling. The greatest discoveries are these ones that are like, wait, that’s funny. I didn’t expect that to happen. Here’s an introspective thought. When’s the last time that happened to you with respect to gospel truth where it was something that you were so open to and maybe if in not just restricting to gospel truth, broader truth, where you were so open to something that you did not predict or anticipate a priori that you thought that’s funny and not that’s funny because oh that’s funny.

  00:33:57 You know that that’s so different than me. But that’s funny because wow, I hadn’t really considered that. We need so much more of that. So much more openness to what the Lord and the Lord’s children who are all who are around us, including the Shakers of the day there and including anyone else, both within and without our own faith that is in this world. That there are things to learn and ways to grow our truth that are available if we can approach them with a more openness, not just part but all truth that we want.

Hank Smith: 00:34:33 That’s great. I remember hearing that the microwave was invented because a man, he was near a, something that was emitting these waves and a candy bar melted in his pocket and he went probably that’s funny. I got close to this and the candy bar melted and now I use a microwave frequently. I don’t know about either of you but.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:34:56 Yeah. Oh absolutely. One of my favorites, this might be a sidelong that doesn’t necessarily capture the context for our scripture discussion, but is the discovery of x-rays by Wilhelm Röntgen in Germany. He was messing with this little experimentation set up in his lab and he saw this phosphorus screen in the corner of his lab start glowing. He’s like, I don’t know why that’s glowing. And he started to channel what was, he didn’t know what these things were. He called them x-rays because X is like unknown. I don’t know what this is, it’s an x. X-ray. Started to put things in front of it and see what happened. And he’s like, I wonder, I wonder if someone put like their hand in front of this. He couldn’t put his own hand there because he had to like run the equipment. So he called his wife into the lab. His had her hold her hand in front of the path of these x-rays that he was, he had no idea what these things were. Put a photographic type plate behind it and captured the first x-ray. It showed the skeletal structure of her hand. Yeah. And she exclaimed. I have seen my death because she saw, you know, this skeleton of wow, it’s things like this that you just don’t, the openness that goes beyond science.

Hank Smith: 00:36:04 Just keep reading your scriptures. Keep listening. Because you never know when something, oh, it clicks. I really like that. Don’t stop reading because you think, well I can’t find anything. You might go have a oh that’s funny moment. I’ve never noticed that.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:36:19 Yeah. So let’s skip down to verse 11 here. This is where the message really begins in verse 12 that they were instructed in this revelation to bring to the Shakers. In fact, some commentary out there suggest maybe they shouldn’t have read it in its entirety, because the first few verses were more pointed to Parley and Leman and Sidney. Neither here nor there, right. The real message comes out in verse 11 and 12. I’ll go ahead and read this little set here to point something out if you think, what am I hearing in these intro verses from the Lord as a message to the Shakers, wherefore, I give unto you a commandment that you go among this people and say unto them, like unto my apostle of old whose name was Peter, believe on the name of the Lord Jesus who was on the earth and is to come. The beginning and the end, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ according to the holy commandment for the remission of sins. And whoso doeth this shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands of the elders of the church. What does that sound like? First principles and ordinances of the gospel, the doctrine of Christ. Where do you lead when it comes to that light? We may shine at others as an invitation for them to lay hold upon it. We lead with the doctrine of Christ. There is nothing more fundamental or important to get others to lay hold upon other than that doctrine.

Hank Smith: 00:37:47 Yeah. When we start talking about first principles, John is like that thing in the corner that just starts glowing and you go, why? Why is that glowing? This is his favorite subject. So John, I’m not gonna let the moment pass. What do you wanna say?

John Bytheway: 00:38:03 Well, Hank, you’ve heard me say this before, I maybe can put a story behind it. I had someone ask me, Hey, you’ve taught the Book of Mormon now for this many years. What’s the one thing that stood out to you? And what I said was first principles. I’m amazed at how often I see faith in Christ and repentance, sometimes followed by ordinances as well. First ordinances, baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. I think a beautiful message in here is you don’t have to know everything, but you have to know these first things. As we’ve jokingly said, Hank, there’s so many different principles and doctrines to learn. If only somebody would just tell me what are the first principles and ordinances.

Hank Smith: 00:38:45 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:38:46 Here they are. So I like that you pointed that out. He says, this is what Peter said and you see the footnote there to Acts 2:38. Yeah. This is day of Pentecost. When the listeners say Men and brethren, what shall we do? And Peter’s like, oh, thank you for that segue. This is what you do.

Hank Smith: 00:39:02 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:39:03 And it teaches them first principles.

Hank Smith: 00:39:06 Aaron, I can see why don’t read those first 11 verses right? That’s not where we want to start. That’s right.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:39:14 That’s right. But the Lord had an approach in mind and it just may not have carried forward.

Hank Smith: 00:39:19 Okay.

John Bytheway: 00:39:22 Aaron, you said something I think that is important in verse 12, at least the timing believe on the name of the Lord Jesus who was on the earth. Okay. He came once and is to come. Okay. He hasn’t come the second time, which was something they thought had happened. Maybe that’s in there for a reason.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:39:40 I’m glad you brought that up John. In fact, maybe that’s a good chance to jump ahead through. So what we won’t read in detail, the ensuing verses about eight or eight to 10 verses, they are the verses where the Lord is teaching them with respect to true doctrines. Note never condemning them. There is no indication in this revelation where the Lord ever condemns the people. He only sets straight what the doctrines are and makes an invitation to them to lay hold upon that light and use it to grow bright and brighter. He does talk through things like marriage. There’s a little confusing wording around the abstaining from meats. But you, if you read through enough of the verses you realize he’s saying don’t be dogmatic about this. No one’s pushing you to either not eat meats or, and certainly don’t be wasteful and kill without a need.

  00:40:26 He goes through all of those. But let’s go to the one that John was mentioning that was alluded to, back in the phrasing in verse 12, going down to verse 22 and 23. And again, verily I say unto you that the Son of man cometh not in the form of a woman, neither of a man traveling on the earth. Wherefore be not deceived, but continue steadfastness looking forth for the heavens to be shaken. Am I the only one that laughs that the Lord uses the word shaken when this was going to the Shakers and it had nothing to do with why they were called the Shakers. And it gets me. He says, and the earth to tremble and to reel to and fro as a drunken man and for the valleys to be exalted and for the mountains to be made low and for the rough places to be made smooth and all this, when the angels shall sound his trumpet. When I read this, I think this is not a road to Emmaus moment. This is a road to Damascus moment when it comes to how the Lord appears. And two of those examples in the New Testament, this is not going to be subtle. This is not going to be something that one would have a need to debate of whether or not has occurred. It’s going to be notable to all. That was a powerful way of sharing that with the Shakers with respect to what they had believed.

Hank Smith: 00:41:41 I like that you pointed out the Lord doesn’t attack them, he just teaches truth.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:41:46 Yep. So maybe to wrap our discussion of 49, I’d like to do two things. I want to first wrap up the context of what actually had occurred there and share a brief story and that might help us with launching to 50 context wise. What really occurred is in terms of the sequence of events. So that revelation was given to Sidney and Parley and Leman was added in which we can save some space to be impressed with him as well. He wasn’t fully in with the Shakers, they were a community as well as the saints were striving to be. And he wasn’t fully in there. He still had his land, which was on the table for potential use in the communal development among the saints. He was kind of lukewarm on either side, but they were his friends. He clearly was a part of this community and he’s given in verse four of section 49, this instruction.

  00:42:39 Alright, Leman, you’re a new convert. He’s gonna go back with Sidney and Parley and you’re gonna go read this very directed revelation to the community you just left. I’m a convert to the church. I was not super active in a religion before, but I can only imagine that one of the first instructions I am given as a convert is go take this pointed revelation back to that community that you just came from and read it. Kudos to Leman who was balancing a lot of emotions. Even if we do know where his story ends, he was here for this, he showed up for it. So Sidney and Leman show up among the Shaker community and Sidney strives to reason with them. Important given what we’re gonna learn. Two days after this revelation was received in section 50. So Sidney strives for that. He just sits down, talks to the minister, tries to work through, how can we share this revelation?

  00:43:29 It’s decided, you know what, maybe it’s not the best time right now. Maybe today’s Sunday service isn’t the right time. Here comes Parley. Parley P. Pratt, who I love and his, his boldness and his zealousness. He comes riding in like a literal cowboy on his horse, gets in there and finds out about this more reasoned approach to whether or not the revelation would be read then. And he’d had nothing for it. He said, it is getting read today. They agreed and Sidney ended up reading it in its entirety. Mind you, it gets done being read and Parley presses, are you going to accept this? To the leader of the Shakers. on the spot in front of his whole congregation. He perhaps predictably responds, no, that I’m not going to accept this. And the rest of the congregation is asked and they perhaps sheepishly say no as well in the presence of their minister.

  00:44:19 And on the spot, Parley’s reaction is a dramatic shaking of his coattails, akin to the shaking of dust from one sandal with, you know, a walking out rebuke also, not surprisingly, does not go well with respect to how the minister receives that.

Hank Smith: 00:44:38 Shocking.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:44:39 Shocking. Yeah, it’s shocking that that went so poorly. Back to my analogy, we started with Parley, showed up with a spotlight, he came in there and shown it directly in the face at a burning intensity upon all who were there, left them with virtually no good option for how to reasonally be edified by the truth that was brought. I mean that’s very judgmental of me, of someone who I admire greatly and Parley P. Pratt. He’s amazing. But he was learning too. He was new to this. A lot of energy, a lot of excitement. I love that in section 50, two days later that the instruction Parley is given in section 50 is go serve among the saints. Go serve the church. Minister among them for a little while. Like, let’s cool out a little bit and a whole lot of really powerful instruction in Section 50 about how to approach these sort of things.

Hank Smith: 00:45:34 Oh. He didn’t have a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People I don’t think .

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:45:39 That’s it. That’s it. Or power of everyday missionaries.

Hank Smith: 00:45:41 I think everyone who served a mission is going, I had that companion for a time. It’s easy, easy, easy.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:45:48 Exactly. Who saw it as their calling to be, to be at that level. If you’ll indulge me to share just a brief story from my mission relevant to this that I think will carry us into section 50 as well. I served in Georgia in Atlanta, coming from Arizona. That’s a foreign land, especially if you’re serving in northern Georgia in the sticks as they call it. I loved it. I love those people. My mission president allowed us to attend other congregations if it didn’t overlap with our own Sunday worship service. Of course, when I was serving in a far north part of Georgia and heard about a church where they hold rattlesnakes, I thought, that’s for me. I have to attend this church. I have to be there. It was a small congregation that they followed a movement that’s called the Church of God With Signs Following.

  00:46:39 It is a tiny, really quaint but beautiful little chapel that is buried in the woods. I went along with three other missionaries on a Saturday night. They worshiped on a Saturday night. We showed up. They were so kind to us, they brought us to the front row.

Hank Smith: 00:46:52 Oh no.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:46:54 So four sheepish Elders set up in the front. One of the pastors of the congregation came and started talking to us about what we believe. What do you believe? Do you believe the New Testament? Yes, we believe the New Testament. And he said, turn open to Mark 16. He invited us to read the following two verses 17 and 18. And these signs shall follow them that believe in my name. They shall cast out devils. They shall speak with new tongues and they shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. And he said, do you all believe that? We kind of looked at each other side to side. I think I said something like, which part?

  00:47:35 He ignored this, he ignored this. And he said, today you will see this fulfilled. And then he got up and left and handed us each a tambourine. The service got started and it was lively, wonderful music. A congregation of maybe 20 or 30 who gathered in total in the middle of the service when one of the songs was really lively. And our, you know, a few tambourine jingles were happening in the front row. One of the members sprinted forward from the back and in the front beneath where the pulpit was, they reached down and pulled out a rattlesnake and it was a large rattlesnake rattling and its head looking around. And a few moments later, the pastor himself who had been singing and preaching the sermon, he pulled a rattlesnake out also and they were dancing together and the snakes were dancing and it was incredible.

  00:48:27 The tambourines eventually stopped and we were just watching wide-eyed. Then the service ended and everyone very pleasantly said, thank you for coming and went our way. Here’s the reason I tell this story. I went to that church for the spectacle. What I did not anticipate is leaving with respect and a desire to testify to these good people that while they went and performed these extreme measures to feel of God’s presence in their life, I wanted to testify He is always present, that his love and his watchful care requires no such display and that he is ready to bring them in. It wasn’t because I saw what they did anymore as being wow, how foolish, how unbelievable. It’s kind of the apologist sense. I left feeling different about the spectacle I had come to see. I think there’s much to learn from that with the Shakers as well.

Hank Smith: 00:49:34 John has had a lot of snakes in his house. I don’t know if anybody even knows that, John. So you did not look one bit scared. I was dying. Rattlesnakes to me that is up there with terrifying. You. You’re like, oh yeah,

John Bytheway: 00:49:49 I have a daughter who just, she didn’t get it from her mother, she didn’t get it from me. She just loves reptiles and has like 30 or something. She found something on classifieds and Dad, will you take me to, she’s not even old enough to drive. Comes walking out of the house with a ball python wrapped around her neck.

Hank Smith: 00:50:12 It’s my new pet.

John Bytheway: 00:50:13 I’m like, whoa. I’m more Indiana Jones. I hate snakes. I hate ’em. What I wanna ask is, were the snakes aggressive?

Hank Smith: 00:50:22 Yeah. So as you’re sitting there on the front row, I would’ve, I would’ve bailed. I honestly, I think I’m like, I’m out. I’m gonna go sit in the back.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:50:30 We were scared and we had come in and sat in the back until he invited us to come and sit closer. So we were noticeably timid and when they brought the snakes in, by the way before the service started, someone came in from a room on the side carrying these thin boxes and you could hear the rattles, you know, inside these boxes and then placed them underneath where the pulpit was. As I understood it from one of our members in the congregation. There was an article in the paper a couple months after we had gone about one of the members being bit by one of the rattlesnakes. They did have that happen on occasion actually. And it comes back to that point of being so truly impressed by the extent to which folks would go to feel God’s presence in their life to feel that light and connectivity. If I can, because I need to do better justice to 49. Think about this verse with respect to my story about that congregation as it relates to them and the Shakers and us. Verse 27, behold, I will go before you and be your rearward and I will be in your midst and you shall not be confounded. The Lord’s everywhere. He’s not just found in the spectacle or the spectacular. He is found all around us.

Hank Smith: 00:51:42 I love your story. I admired them and I wanted to give them the truth. I’m not mocking them. I admire their faith. They desire to know the truth in part, but they don’t know it all. Wow. Aaron, I’m gonna have to slow my heart rate here for a minute. I was too into that story. I don’t know if you saw me, but I’m, my wife will tell you that snakes are not my, yeah, especially rattlesnakes. Rattlesnakes. It just, oh man. Aaron, this has been so fun so far and I love Parley P. Pratt and rattlesnakes. We have talked about things I did not see coming. I’m excited for section 50. What do you wanna do here?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:52:26 You know, it worked well having the section heading tee us off a little bit and then I can maybe expound a little bit from there. So if someone would like to read that, I think that’d be perfect.

John Bytheway: 00:52:36 Revelation given through Joseph Smith, the prophet at Kirtland, Ohio, May 9th, 1831. Joseph Smith History states that some of the elders did not understand the manifestations of different spirits abroad in the earth and that this revelation was given in response to his special inquiry on the matter, so-called spiritual phenomena were not uncommon among the members, some of whom claim to be receiving visions and revelations.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:53:03 I have such a compassion for Joseph Smith in dealing with this. You think about being part of this building, this community of brand new saints, they’re all bringing with them all of their culture and traditions and backgrounds. There’s gonna be stuff you’re gonna have to sort through. This revelation brings out some of those because they were noticing, I love how it generalizes to these so-called spiritual phenomenon and these different spirits abroad in the earth. There was a lot more specificity to that that drove the background to this revelation because there were evidences in local congregations of the church where certain things were happening, whether it is speaking in tongues or demonstrating something that was akin to speaking in tongues in a way that was not understood or did not involve more than you know, an individual. There was, what we would see nowadays is a broader Pentecostal style of worship, which is certainly related to what I shared with respect to the story of the church that had rattlesnakes and held rattlesnakes.

  00:54:11 It is very lively. The phrase that you often hear is falling out in the spirit. So there would be physical manifestations such as falling on the ground. This is described in great detail as cropping up in some of the worship services there, understandably, to our point about appreciating with respect, the passion and level of energy and commitment that some may manifest through their attempts to worship. And I say attempts not to belittle. I say attempts because what the Lord is pointing out here is the need for ratification and whether edification was present there or not. So you have all of this and the need to provide some instruction on how to navigate it going forward. That’s really at the heart of this revelation coming out. And then you can’t ignore the fact that it was two days earlier that the revelation was received 49 about the Shakers that we just talked about.

  00:55:00 So there’s relevant context coming from both within and outside the church. Here’s what I think is wild guys. Think about this for a second. This revelation is because members of the church were having too many or claiming too many spiritual manifestations. Could there be a more opposite problem to the church today? I can’t speak globally, right? But how often are we struggling today with exactly the opposite with members who struggle by not having sufficient spiritual manifestations? That dichotomy really struck me when I saw this. I was like, oh my goodness, this is the opposite problem. And I think the counsel actually works, whether you’re on one extreme or the other. It’s a marked difference between their time and ours that then there was a constant energy towards seeking a manifestation spiritually. And now there is a constant struggle with questioning whether manifestations have ever been received.

  00:56:04 There’s a quote I’d like to share to kick this off with how we can frame the way we are navigating spiritual manifestations in our day. And it comes from Elder Bednar who has spoken on this topic so frequently and so eloquently with regards to how to identify spiritual manifestations, how to know we are living in revelation. He said this, this is actually not in one of the books that he has that are really terrific or one of his conference talks. This comes from an interview he did in January, 2023. It’s like a Q&A at Ensign College. So this is Elder Bednar. In the culture of the church or language of the church, we seem to put a primary focus on gearing up and preparing to receive revelation when it comes and that is accurate, but you are living in it. Instead of thinking about, oh every once in a while I have to get spiritually supercharged so that I am sure to recognize it that we may always have His Spirit to be with us.

  00:57:02 If you are a good girl, if you are a good boy, you don’t have to be perfect. But if you are honoring your covenants and pressing forward with faith in the Savior, then you are living in revelation. It doesn’t just come once in a while and the vast majority of the time you are being influenced by the Holy Ghost and you have no idea that it is happening. We have the expectation that we have to be consciously aware in the moment that we are receiving revelation and that is not true. In fact, I would suggest much revelation is occurring as we are simply pressing forward being good and trying to get better with God’s help.

Hank Smith: 00:57:39 I really like that. I think sometimes our verbiage is off. I went to FSY and the Spirit was so strong as if somehow the Spirit said, yeah, that’s where I’m. So I just take my vitamins that day when what we should probably say is, oh, I became more in tune with the Spirit that’s always available to me.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:58:00 Yeah, that’s well said. I agree with you. Some of our semantics, some of our word choices and examples in the church can often lead astray even though the intention is absolutely not there. because folks are looking for something that is not aligned with the way the Lord is actually speaking to them. I was talking to a young woman in our ward just the other day, who’s in this impossible mode of decision making about where to go to college. That’s a huge life decision. You don’t wanna like pile it onto the teenagers,  to be like, do you realize how the implications of who you might meet and the decisions you might make and who you’ll marry and, and yet you also want them to take it serious. This young woman expressed how she has been praying and fasting diligently seeking for instruction from the Lord about what to choose between two really great school options. My comment back to her was, you have done enough that God is with you. The Lord is not sitting back waiting for you to have filled the glass to the right level. Yeah. I just commended her like you have done it. Have confidence that God is there. Make your choice and be confident He is there with you because he doesn’t ask for more than that.

Hank Smith: 00:59:15 Right.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:59:15 You’ve brought it. I really like that.

Hank Smith: 00:59:19 I remember Elder McConkie saying he prayed every day. Right. Did you pray over this decision or this decision or this decision? He said, I prayed every day to be led by the Spirit. I worked every day to be led by the Spirit. I considered myself worthy. We often talk about the Holy Ghost as if it’s a rare thing. When what’s the promise that they may always have his Spirit to be with them.

John Bytheway: 00:59:45 I feel like wow. I was being guided back then and I didn’t realize it at the time, I suppose because like you said, Aaron, I was in the Spirit. I was there way, way back before Hank was born in 76, Elder John H. Groberg gave a talk at BYU, which was so helpful to me. I wasn’t there in 76 either, but I read it later. He said that rather than saying, I will not move unless I get this burning, let us say I will move unless I feel it is wrong. I was led by the Spirit not knowing beforehand has blessed me because I just, heavenly Father, I’m gonna move. Stop me if I’m wrong, the way you’ve put it, living in the Spirit, there may be many good things, many different options, all of which will help you arrive where the Lord wants you to arrive. What is it that Stephen Covey said about people I’m not sure I’ve ever felt the Spirit. He said, you’re a fish. When does a fish know he’s surrounded by water? When he isn’t. Yeah. Other than that, he’s not even aware that he’s been surrounded by that all the time. It’s interesting idea.

Hank Smith: 01:00:51 Aaron, what a great story about this young woman. You have done it. Move forward with confidence.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 01:00:57 Yeah. Not just because, oh, I guess I’m not getting an answer. I’m gonna have to step forward. No, you have confidence. God is with you. It’s sort of turning on its head. What we often use as a conditional. Well, I’m waiting for that revelation to come. I’m waiting to find out what the Lord would have me do. No, no, no. What the Lord has done is answered you and said, move forward. I’m with you. You are doing everything I have asked. Move forward.

Hank Smith: 01:01:19 We’re expected to create. This isn’t a I’m gonna command you in all things. This is okay, you’ve done what I’ve asked. You’re living the gospel. You’re doing what you can. Move forward and create.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 01:01:32 Yeah. I love that. Particularly coming back to some of the direct instruction in Section 50, is that the Lord, if we reason with him with regards to how we approach obtaining instruction, if it’s if we want the truth in all, not in part, if our openness is truly there, he will reason with us. And if we have sought that in the spirit of truth, we deserve that confidence.