Hank Smith: 00:00:00 Coming up in this episode.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:00:02 In preparing this, I felt a lot of pressure to get Emma’s story right, and I think it’s because she wants it to be right. She wants that redemption. I hope that we can give it to her.

Hank Smith: 00:00:17 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of FollowHIM. My name is Hank Smith and I’m your host and I’m here with my co-host John Bytheway, who has laid aside the things of this world. John, that is you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:31 Yeah, I just put them in the safe.

Hank Smith: 00:00:34 Yeah.  John, this is an interview I’ve been looking forward to for a long time. We are joined today by Morgan Pearson. She’s all the way out in Philadelphia. Morgan, thank you for being here with us.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:00:49 Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited for this conversation.

Hank Smith: 00:00:53 This is a special lesson for everyone as we get to focus in on Emma Smith and her life and what the Lord says to her. So John, when you think of sections 23 through 26, especially section 25, what comes to mind?

John Bytheway: 00:01:10 Thanks for asking Hank. I remember somebody once saying, please don’t make this a section just about the hymns, make a hymn book. And I thought, yeah, really good point. I love that. It’s about Emma. I love that Emma is called by her name. I love that. It seems very directed to Emma, but towards the end it’s like what I say to you, I say to all, I mean, there’s a lot of great things to see in this one.

Hank Smith: 00:01:34 Yeah, and hearing this in context, we talk about Joseph. He’s going through such difficulty, yet he’s got a companion here who is going through the same difficulties with him and it’s nice to highlight that. Morgan, what are you looking forward to today? Where are we going to go?

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:01:51 My goal in our discussion is hopefully to lay the groundwork. John already alluded to this, that at the end of section 25 it says, this is my voice unto all. I want to look at why this matters to all of us, but also why Emma should matter to all of us. That is the goal. We’ll see if we get there.

Hank Smith: 00:02:14 That’s fantastic. I’m looking forward to this. Let’s read from the Come, Follow Me manual. The lesson is called Seek for the Things of a Better World. Hey, that sounds like you, John. Alright, here’s what it says. It starts out this way. “For most people, being baptized is a reverent, peaceful experience. The baptism of Emma Smith and others, however, was disrupted by a mob who mocked them, threatened them, and forced them to flee. Later, just as Joseph was about to confirm the new members, he was arrested for upsetting the community with his preaching. In all this opposition, how could Emma find reassurance that she was doing the right thing? The same place we can all find it—through revelation from the Lord. He spoke to Emma about “the things of a better [world]”—His kingdom—and her place in it. He told her not to fear, to “lift up [her] heart and rejoice,” and to “cleave unto the covenants [she had] made.” And these words of encouragement and counsel are His “voice unto all”.” Okay with that, Morgan, how do you want to go about this?

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:03:19 I want to talk a little bit about why Emma matters to us and I thought it might be fun. Hank, you mentioned when you reached out to me that you had just like a feeling that you should reach out. It’s interesting because you mentioned Emily Bell Freeman. She just recently gave a general conference talk that talked a lot about Emma Smith. I thought it might be kind of fun to tell you all why I love Emma so much. I have a daughter named Emma. My husband has been dead set since he was 10 years old on naming a daughter Emma. I was not sold on the name. Emily Freeman, we have this long story genetic testing situation when we have babies where our babies have to be tested for a a rare form of eye cancer that my husband was born with. So Emily texted me when I was pregnant with my first and said, how are you doing?

  00:04:22 And I told her that we were going in for this testing and she said, can I pray for the baby? Do you have a name picked out? And I said, we don’t have a name picked out. You can just pray for baby girl Pearson. And then my husband kiddingly said, tell her if she wants to be on my team, she should pray for Emma  Emily, Sister Freeman, I should say, texted me from the western wall. She was in Jerusalem in Israel. She texted me a picture from the western wall of a slip of paper that said, baby girl Pearson. In parentheses, Emma, there’s a lot more of the story of why we ended up naming our baby Emma, but I just want to tell you both. It has been such a blessing to me to have this chance to dig into this section, section 25, not only for my girl, but I have another daughter now too.

  00:05:18 And I just think this section is so powerful for women in particular. There’s so few places in the scriptures where we know that the Lord is speaking directly to women, that he gives us directives for the kind of women that we should be. And so I think as he talks to Emma, he is talking to all of us about what our potential is as a woman. Why does this matter? Especially now, President Nelson in 2019 invited the women of the church to study Doctrine and Covenants section 25, and he said he wanted us to study it in order to learn how to draw the Savior’s power into our lives. He said that accessing the power of God in your life requires the same things that the Lord instructed Emma and each of you to do. 

  00:06:11 And then he said, your personal spiritual endeavor will bring you joy as you gain, understand and use the power with which you have been endowed. This does matter to each of us. And even if you aren’t like a history buff, I think it helps to get to know Emma Smith. I think as we come to know Emma in a way, especially as women, we come to know ourselves a little bit better. In preparation for this conversation. I talked to Jenny Reeder, who is a church historian that I love, and she wrote, I think, one of the best Deseret book publications to come out in the last little bit, which was the book First that was published a few years ago that tells Emma’s story. And so I picked Jenny’s brain a little bit, and one of the things that she says is that she believes Emma’s story is a story of redemption. That I think in many ways as Emma is redeemed, so are we. I think if we judge her or make her unworthy, we also are making the atonement of Jesus Christ insufficient for our lives and our shortcomings and our weaknesses. And women are so hard on ourselves. So I think that it’s important for us to be able to, like Jenny says, redeem Emma in our church’s history in order to be able to redeem ourselves. Does that make any sense?

Hank Smith: 00:07:34 Yeah. John, we had this great discussion with Dr. Taunalyn Ford about Redeeming the Dead is not just about ordinances, it’s about honoring the dead and finding the good in them. I just thought it was a fantastic thought.

John Bytheway: 00:07:51 And Sister Melissa Inouye that we had on the podcast who passed away shortly after that. I will never forget her ideas about redeeming the dead that was, but redeem their reputation. Of all the people I want to be on the right side of, one of them’s Emma. You know? Yeah, I know Joseph loves her. And I think what a hard life. There was no, “Okay, now you’ve found your husband life will be happily ever after.” That was not her story. And boy, I respect these people for sticking with it.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:08:21 Yeah. Jenny Reeder actually recently attended a symposium. I believe they spent days going through Section 25, sent me something that she wrote for this conference. And her article was all about comparing and connecting Eve and Emma along the same lines of what we were just talking about, the redemption. So she said a Washington Post article affirmed that the story of Eve and the book of Genesis has had a more profoundly negative impact on women throughout history than any other. And then Jenny says this, which kind of blew my mind a little bit. She said, I love how Joseph salvaged Eve’s reputation when he translated the Bible. Namely Moses and Genesis from June to December, 1830 with scribes including Emma, the books of Abraham and Moses introduced new insight into the ironically salvific role of Eve as the instigator of God’s work and glory to bring to pass the exaltation and eternal life of man and woman.

  00:09:30 And then Jenny shared that Joseph actually had a couple of visions that included Adam and Eve, which I did not know. But then Jenny writes Emma too multiplied sorrows with lost children and the lost manuscript she had transcribed, which we probably will talk more about. She is a Miriam to Joseph’s Moses assisting where he is slow of speech, a prophetess expounding and exhorting to the modern-day female descendants of Israel. She is also every one of us as we maneuver our own ways, laying things down, lifting things up, keeping coming, receiving both warnings and blessings. And she is the church, the community, the band of believers. Emma is every one of us. And now that I have made Emma a giant figure, I wonder how she would feel about this. She is, after all, a person, a very mortal person with very tragic flaws, of which I’m sure she was completely aware.

  00:10:30 Things didn’t turn out well for her as seen through certain eyes. She stayed, she remained, she didn’t come. She denied. She protected her children and her home and her possessions. She questioned, she spoke up and then she didn’t. She gave in. She married a drunkard and raised his illegitimate child from an adulterous relationship. She saw the committal of her son to a mental hospital, her eye drooped. She joined another church and collected new hymns. She severed, but in so doing, she remained with Joseph’s body. She continued to protect the word she scribed for him. He came for her when he died. And then she tells this story about how in 1892 there was a celebration in the tabernacle. There were these floral representations that turned to women in Nauvoo and life-size portraits of Joseph, Emma, Eliza R Snow and the then Relief Society general President Zina Young. There was some concern about including Emma in this celebration. And Wilford Woodruff said, anyone who opposed it must be very narrow minded indeed. Which I thought was really interesting. And then Jenny just closes and says, today we can redeem Eve and Emma by recognizing their work alongside their troubles. Perhaps this is how God promises to preserve Emma’s life. We can remove them from their fallen places and position them crowned in righteousness and we can find ourselves in them.

John Bytheway: 00:12:04 Wow. 

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:12:05 That’s a lot  Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:12:07 So good though.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:12:09 I know. I was like, Jenny, can I quote you? She was like, quote away. I was like, perfect. Thank you.  Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:12:16 Wow. Jenny Reeder. That was absolutely beautiful. Not only is she an incredible writer, but she’s a brilliant historian. Some people get all the talent.  Now, before we go any further, speaking of talent, let’s take a quick time out. John, tell us about Morgan. Someone might say, wow, Morgan knows Emily Bell Freeman. Well, Morgan knows just about everyone.  can you tell us a little bit about her?

John Bytheway: 00:12:44 Yeah, I’m sure a lot of her listeners are going, Hey, isn’t she the All In podcast host? Yeah, that’s what she’s been doing since October of 2018, has about 23 million downloads. She’s originally from North Carolina. She worked for Deseret News for a long time, wrote about 400 articles for Deseret News. She and her husband Benjamin have two little girls, Emma and Jane, which she has explained a little bit. They live in Philadelphia right now. Benjamin’s at Wharton getting his MBA. She is happiest when she’s wearing sweatpants and eating dark chocolate.  And down the list somewhere is hanging out with Hank and John. So we’re down the list, but we’re glad you took a minute for us.

Hank Smith: 00:13:27 Yeah. 

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:13:28 I love any chance to talk the gospel with anybody. I actually think this is so funny because John, I don’t know if I told you this when you were on All In. I grew up listening to audio tapes of your voice to go to sleep at night.  I mean, I could quote you. Every tape you did growing up. So big fan.

Hank Smith: 00:13:54 Oh wow, Morgan, where do we get All In at? Here at followHIM we love to promote our sister podcasts. If someone wanted to listen, maybe they haven’t heard of it, maybe they’ve been living under a rock. So where would I get it?

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:14:08 Literally anywhere that you listen to podcasts, you can find it at Apple, Spotify. But if you also are not great with the podcast app, you can just go online to ldsliving.com/allin.

Hank Smith: 00:14:23 We hope everyone will go check this out. My favorite interview is John Bytheway, finding joy this holiday season. November of 2020.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:14:35 For this conversation. If you’re interested in what we’ve talked about today, I do have an episode with Jenny Reeder when that First book came out, which is a great resource and I didn’t pull a ton from that because I figured I’ve already talked to her about that. If anybody’s interested in listening, that is a good one to start with.

Hank Smith: 00:14:56 Beautiful. Well, let’s keep going here. So you’re a journalist by nature. You’ve been doing this for a long time. Is that kind of the slant you want to take as we jump in?

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:15:08 I had this idea when Hank reached out. I will admit, I was like, I am not a scholar. I’m not a historian. I am a journalist. I know how to ask questions. I love asking questions. I love sitting with someone and being able to pick their brain. As I thought about this in preparation, I had the thought partially because I was thinking about how complex of a human Emma is. And I think that makes for the best kind of interviews. Very complex people make interesting interviews and I had the thought if I could interview anyone who has passed away, Emma Smith might be at the top of the list. One thing that I’ve always tried to do with All In is I’ll think, you know, I have the chance to sit and talk with somebody that in many ways, like I said, I went to bed at night as a kid listening to John Bytheway.

  00:16:03 I never ever would have imagined that I would have the chance to talk to John Bytheway. For that reason, because I know that there are a lot of people that would love to have the opportunity to sit in the same rooms as some of these people and to ask them questions, I like to think that I’m like representative of a normal member of the church and try to ask the question that people want answered. One thing that I’ve tried to do sometimes when trying to get questions for a guest, I’ll put a question out on Instagram and say, if you could ask this person any question, what would you ask? So I did that on Instagram in preparation for this discussion and the questions flooded in. As we go through, I’m not going to take them question by question. I will call out like this is one question that came up a lot.

  00:16:56 We’ll try to answer some of those questions that people seem to have. I think there are some questions that we would never be able to know unless we were able to talk to Emma herself. But I think there are resources out there that give us a sense for Emma. There’s even, some people may not be aware of this, you can read Emma Smith’s last will and testament online. So this was an interview that her sons did with her prior to her passing, which was so interesting to me to read because I think in the scriptures, or even reading Joseph and Emma’s letters back and forth to each other, it’s very poetic if you’re going to write something that was intended to be read. But this last will and testament is literally just her sons asking her questions. She talks like you or I would talk.

  00:17:50 That gives us interesting insight into Emma as a person. There’s also, and we’ll get to this later, but there’s a blessing. So when Joseph Smith was going to Carthage, Emma asked him for a blessing. He didn’t have time to give her that blessing before he left, but he asked her to write down a blessing of what she desired. He said he would sign it. We know Joseph never came back from Carthage, but I think that also gives us a really interesting insight into Emma and her mind. We’ll try to give people a little bit of a better idea of who Emma is. We’ll see if we’re successful or not. But that is my, that’s my hope.

Hank Smith: 00:18:37 That’s great. And she certainly was all in. I’m certain that you would both say that I think through the years, maybe the church has, and both of you could comment on this, we’ve come around to a more, like you said, that this woman is very complex and instead of labeling her as, oh, she left the church, we can’t listen to her. I think we’ve come to a much more positive place.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:19:04 Yeah. I actually exchanged some messages with a lady that used to work for church public affairs and she said that she, she said, I’m hoping between Jenny Reeder’s research and President Freeman’s talk from general conference, this generation will grow up with a healthier approach to Emma. Which is sad that it felt unhealthy at some points, but I think we just don’t totally understand Emma. I’ve been friends with Jenny through work for years and when she was writing the book about Emma, she posted a picture on Instagram. She said, working on the Emma Smith project. And I messaged her and I was like, okay, I am so intrigued by this. She messaged me back and said, I think she’s speaking to me. Emily Bell Freeman, when she was preparing her general conference talk, she talks about how she ended up going to two different church history sites, one being Harmony, Pennsylvania, where she went to Emma’s home and sat in Emma’s kitchen for like three hours. She says that she felt like she received so much revelation and I think that the reason women feel drawn to Emma is that we feel a responsibility to get it right. In preparing this, I felt a lot of pressure to get Emma’s story right, and I think it’s because she wants it to be right. She wants that redemption. I hope that we can give it to her.

Hank Smith: 00:20:43 And before anyone even thinks, well all those people at Utah, they were terrible people as well. No, they’re also complex. They also are over there trying to deal with their situation. What’s happened, being driven out of Nauvoo. I had just a quick thought. I was teaching the New Testament today at BYU and there’s this moment in Luke chapter seven where this sinful woman comes in as Jesus is at a meal with a Pharisee. And the Pharisee quickly labels the woman. I would not let her touch me. She’s a sinner. And then Jesus asks a question that I just find interesting. He says, Simon, seest thou this woman. And of course he sees her. They’ve already been talking about her. She’s been in the room for a long time. Everybody’s seen her. So I asked my students, well, what does he mean seest thou this woman? They shared such wonderful thoughts of do we actually see people or do we label people and as a way to not see them. So as I came into this interview today and as I’ve been listening to you Morgan, I think it’s a question about everyone from history and today it’s Emma and each other. Do you really see them or have you gone with the label that you’ve put on them for a long time? So it just seemed to fit right. Seest thou this woman today. Do you actually see her?

John Bytheway: 00:22:06 I just think life is so much easier when we figure people were doing the best they could with what they knew at the time and sometimes with things they knew that weren’t even right at the time. And maybe the Utah Saints thought they knew things that weren’t even right at the time. 

Hank Smith: 00:22:23 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:22:23 We’re all just doing the best we can with what we know or what we think we know. That might not even be true  So let’s extend some grace to people. And I’m so glad we’re talking this way about Emma right now.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:22:36 I think it’s interesting. This is probably a comment out of left field, but I love the TV show. This Is Us. I don’t know if either one of you watch that show  The thing that I love about it is that you see the characters throughout time. Like in the beginning of the show, I didn’t like the essentially main character. But then once you see everything that that person has gone through, you develop such a love for every character. I think that that’s kind of the way that life is. If we could see everything, we would love everybody so much more. My mother-in-law always says we love best those that we know best. I think that that’s true of everybody. And certainly I think as you come to know Emma more, the more you love her. There’s a quote from Lucy Smith in her history that was written in 1845 talking about Emma and Lucy definitely would’ve been somebody that knew Emma really well. She said, I have never seen a woman in my life who would endure every species of fatigue and hardship from month to month and from year to year with that unflinching courage, zeal and patience, which she has always done. She has breasted the storm of persecution and buffeted the rage of men and devils until she has been swallowed up in a sea of trouble, which would’ve borne down almost any other woman. How can we be hard on somebody that that is what she went through?

Hank Smith: 00:24:11 And that’s coming from a woman who went through incredibly difficult things. When I contacted Morgan, I really wanted to spend the vast majority of our time in Section 25, just because this is a great time to talk about Emma. But John, if you look at section 23 and 24, it actually involves Emma even though she’s not listed by name. Section 23 is given to Oliver Cowdery, Hyrum Smith, Samuel Smith, Joseph Sr. And Joseph Knight, Sr. All of whom know Emma personally. She is spending a lot of time with them. And then Section 24 comes in at Harmony, Pennsylvania, which is Emma’s hometown. That’s where she’s born. Even though we’re not going to spend a lot of time in these sections. John, do you see anything that we might stop and take a look at?

John Bytheway: 00:25:03 I don’t pretend to know the entire backstory of Section 23, but one of the things that I just loved was how often the Lord repeated this phrase. Because like you said, this is five different people who kind of put all together in Section 23, thou art under no condemnation. It just made me think how many of us are thinking I’m just not good enough. It’s like the Lord saying, will you stop it? You’re not under condemnation. He works with people. He’s a Savior. What does that mean? That means he forgives sins. I’m not condemning you. That touched me. Hopefully for all of us that are oh, I just am not sure. You know the Lord’s saying, stop it. You’re not under any condemnation.

Hank Smith: 00:25:49 I love the way you said that, John, because I think the Lord would say that. Why do you think that? Why do you think that I’m up here looking for ways to condemn you? I’m not. Elder Kearon right? 

John Bytheway: 00:26:02 I’m in relentless pursuit of you. Yeah. So that touched me when I read that. Because I thought if a lot of us act that way a lot, like we’re, oh, we’re never enough. And the Lord’s saying, stop that. You’re going to get some advice. You’re going to get some exhortations, but you’re not under condemnation. Just listen up and let me help you. I like that. Yeah. That’s beautiful.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:26:23 I do think it’s interesting, that idea that John just expressed kind of ties into what we’ve been talking about. We should tell listeners that I literally have a child in my arms. Because If they hear her cooing, it’s like, what in the world is going on? But I think that that idea of not condemning ourselves is also applicable to what we’ve been talking about with not condemning other people either. I think there is that tie there as well.

Hank Smith: 00:26:54 That’s wonderful. Then the section 24 to Oliver, the church is just a baby speaking of a baby, right? It’s a whole four months old and the Lord is moving forward saying verse 10. I just, I’ve always loved it. Don’t suppose that you can say enough in my cause, right?  I will let you know if you ever get to the point where you’re,  it’s too much. Let’s go, let’s grow. Which I love. John, anything in 24?

John Bytheway: 00:27:26 Yeah. I’m looking at verse eight. The first part is to Joseph and the second part to Oliver. Be patient in afflictions for thou shalt have many. Okay. Who would really like to hear that? Anybody? We reading it now knowing where this happened in history, we’re a little bit acquainted with what’s going to happen down the road. And it’s like, wow. Those are sobering words for Joseph, but endure them. I am with you even until the end of thy days. Wow.

Hank Smith: 00:27:54 There’s a little reference to the Book of Mormon in verse 19. And you know how I love Jacob Five John. Thou were called to prune my vineyard with a mighty pruning this last time, right? You go over to Jacob chapter five, and there’s this moment where the Lord is frustrated with the vineyard. It’s all gone bad. And he thinks, what could I have done more for my vineyard? And then the servant, if you remember John, says, let’s try one more time, one more time. And everything turns around. And by the end, the Lord has everything that he was hoping for out of his vineyard. So I just like that little Book of Mormon connection.

John Bytheway: 00:28:33 Absolutely.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:28:35 When you are married to someone, and we’ll talk about how Emma was called to be a comfort to her husband, but that was because he was going to go through so many afflictions. So when it says be patient in afflictions for thou shalt have many, I think it’s not just Joseph that was in those afflictions. So as we talk throughout, I think we’ll get a better idea of what Joseph and Emma went through, which it’s just a lot.

Hank Smith: 00:29:07 It’s relentless when you look at their life. It’s give them a break almost. Give them a place to settle down. And even says in verse nine to Joseph in temporal labor, thou shalt not have strength, which also says to Emma, temporaly, it’s going to always be a struggle.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:29:25 And when section 25 was received, Emma and Joseph had just lost their first child. Pretty devastating.

Hank Smith: 00:29:36 All the hopes. Everything that you’re looking forward to and the plans you’re making, it’s ripped away from you. Now we can spend our time where I asked Morgan to go, which is section 25. Morgan, I love the idea you had. Let’s ask questions of Emma and probably get some of our answers from this section. Right?

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:29:56 Hopefully that is the hope. I wanted to start, if we can, with a quote from Sister Freeman’s general conference talk, because I think it really sets the stage for the section. She says that Emma and Joseph, they had just lost their first child, a little boy. They had been married for three and a half years at this point. Obviously the church has just been organized. And Sister Freeman says, surely she worried about their finances, about the increasing persecution that threatened their safety and about their future. And yet the work of God was everywhere around her. Did she also wonder about her place in the plan, her purpose in his kingdom and her potential in the eyes of God? And then she says, but Emma did not just stand at that window and wonder. If we read Section 25 carefully we discover an important progression taking place.

  00:30:54 Emma would go from being a daughter in the kingdom to elect lady to Queen. I found as I was trying to prep for this talk that was given in 1984 by President Gordon B. Hinckley, where he essentially walked through this section verse by verse. Then Jenny Reeder also says that she likes to look at Emma through Section 25. She thinks that if we really dig into Section 25, we understand Emma. But President Hinckley said, this, as you know, is a revelation given through Joseph the prophet to his wife Emma. It was given at Harmony, Pennsylvania in July, 1830, only a short time after the church was organized. And so far as I know, this is the only revelation given specifically to a woman. And in concluding it, the Lord said, this is my voice unto all. Therefore, the council given by the Lord on this occasion is applicable to each of you. I thought if we go through verse by verse and pull out the interesting things, and as we go, we’ll answer some of those questions.

Hank Smith: 00:32:03 Yeah, I love it. One thing that I think is helpful that I’ve been shown through our time together on followHIM is that sometimes we make the mistake of thinking, okay, here’s a male figure in the scriptures. Both men and women can learn from this figure. And then we’ll get to a female in the scriptures and go, all women can learn from this woman. It’s just been a couple of times John, that we’ve gone through and I’ve said, wait, wait, wait. Why do we all of a sudden think, oh, here’s a woman. Men can’t learn from this section. So I, if there’s anybody listening who thinks, oh, I guess this is for the women. No, no, no, no, no. This is do the same thing we do with any male figure in the scripture. Say, I can draw out principles for me.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:32:44 And the principles are applicable. Yeah. So in verse one, I think one of the most significant things for anyone is that the Lord calls Emma by name, just like he called Joseph by name in the first vision. That was the biggest thing that stood out to me in that verse.

John Bytheway: 00:33:06 Do you know what else about that verse? Originally it said, I speak unto you, Emma, my daughter and Smith was added in 1835 for clarity for our day for a growing church. So it’s even more close. Joseph, this is my beloved. Emma, my daughter. You’re my daughter Emma. I don’t need your last name.  We maybe need it in future generations, but originally it was Emma, my daughter. I like that.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:33:32 I love that too.

Hank Smith: 00:33:34 We talk about the first vision that Joseph, the first thing he learns, the very first word of the restoration is his name. And here, same thing, Emma, I know you, you are known to me. I know more about you than you do.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:33:53 Absolutely. So then in verse two, it talks about walking in the paths of virtue. As I was preparing, I looked in the BYU citation index, which I’m sure you all use. I think it’s an underutilized tool. Sister Elaine Dalton, who we know as the young women general president that introduced the value of virtue into the personal progress program, which is no longer, she has talked about this verse multiple times in general conference. She said, virtue is a pattern of thought and behavior based on high moral standards. It includes chastity and moral purity. And my mom, when that value of virtue was brought in to the young women’s program, my mom pointed out something that I’ve thought about over and over again in the years since, which is that they didn’t introduce it as here’s a new young women value, live it. They introduced it as a return to virtue. My mom said, you know, to me that says we recognize that you may have made mistakes. We recognize that we can be better in this regard. So we’re calling for a return to virtue. It’s okay if you have not been perfect in this in the past, but it’s something to work at. That was what came to mind for me with that verse.

John Bytheway: 00:35:28 I’ve heard Sister Freeman also talk about when the Savior’s garment was touched and he said, who touched me? And the apostles are like, there’s a thousand people here, and you say who touched me? And  virtue has gone out of me. And the footnote says, power. I love putting those together. Virtue is power.

Hank Smith: 00:35:48 One thing that caught my eye this time around was, I will preserve thy life. I wonder if that’s a worry for her. I mean, just at her baptism, there’s people yelling and taunting and Joseph is getting hauled away as he’s going to end up. It’s going to happen many times. So I wonder if that’s been a concern on her mind. And the Lord lets her know I’m overseeing this.

John Bytheway: 00:36:11 Help me out with the backstory here. Didn’t they make a little dam in the creek so that they could have a baptism and people kept destroying it? And that’s why Emma hasn’t been confirmed yet. That’s why verse eight says future tense. He will lay hands on thee to get the Holy Ghost. And the crazy ironic thing, there’s people that are disrupting them, breaking the damn they’ve made in the river. And then Joseph is arrested as a disorderly person.  Oh, he’s the disorderly one?

Hank Smith: 00:36:40 You built this baptismal font for people to tear down. How dare you.

John Bytheway: 00:36:44 How disorderly of you.

Hank Smith: 00:36:46 Yeah, I mean ever since, we could talk about this Morgan, ever since she’s really met Joseph Smith, her life has been, it’s almost like, who did I marry? I’m constantly having to move because people are threatening my life.

John Bytheway: 00:37:00 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:37:00 I think we heard that Martin Harris’s wife, Lucy, ransacks Emma’s house at one point. I will preserve thy life. No wonder she might feel that way.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:37:11 I think that that’s an interesting thing to dig into with, we already this year in Doctrine and Covenants studied that story of Martin Harris and the lost manuscript. One thing that was interesting that I learned is that Martin Harris, in many ways to Emma, was an answer to prayer. She knew that they needed somebody to help them. He had come along at just the right time. Then he asks if he can take those pages. We know the story. Joseph asked three times. Finally, the Lord says, you can do as you please. And Joseph gives him the manuscript. Martin leaves with that manuscript. And while he’s gone, we learned that Emma loses their baby, is incredibly sick, when she is coherent from what she’s gone through, and Joseph has been caring for her the entire time, she’s like, where is the manuscript? And says, Joseph, you need to go find what Martin has done with this.

  00:38:18 This is in Saints. This is what it says about that situation with Martin Harris. After two weeks, Emma’s health began to improve and her thoughts turned to Martin and the manuscript. “I feel so uneasy” she told Joseph that “I cannot rest and shall not be at ease until I know something about what Mr. Harris is doing with it”. She urged Joseph to find Martin, but Joseph did not want to leave her. Send for my mother, she said, and she shall stay with me while you are gone. She knew that they needed to go find out what was going on with the manuscript. She says, send for my mother and she’ll stay with me while you’re gone. Joseph took a stage coach north, he ate and slept little during the journey, tells what happened. Martin Harris says, I’ve lost my soul. But then Joseph says, must I return to my wife with such a tale? Joseph feared the news would kill her. And how shall I appear before the Lord? And I think that tells you how important the Book of Mormon was to Emma. We sometimes maybe underestimate her contribution in terms of being Joseph’s first scribe. We’ll talk a bit more about that later. I think that that is one more example of the adversity that Joseph and Emma went through together.

Hank Smith: 00:39:41 Yeah, we don’t talk about it because we don’t have those pages. So we don’t see her handwriting. Her contribution is really lost. We talk about Oliver Cowdery. Oh, he’s the one that was the scribe. If we lost Oliver Cowdery’s portion, we wouldn’t talk about him. All that work. All that work.

John Bytheway: 00:40:00 We get Emma talking about how Joseph could dictate for hour after hour and come back without having the previous lines read back to him. I’m so glad we have that, Emma’s testimony of how that happened.

Hank Smith: 00:40:14 Yeah. And how excited they must have been. All this information, all this beautiful scripture. Oh Morgan, I like that you pointed it out that he thinks there’s two people he’s worried about. How am I going to appear before the Lord and what is my wife going to say? I shouldn’t joke around, but those are my two questions often.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: What’s my wife going to say!

Hank Smith: Oh man, the Lord’s going to be mad to me. And what’s Sarah going to say? Isn’t that true?

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:40:41 For the purposes of this conversation, maybe we jump to verse four because there, it’s alluding to, and some scholars say that it’s not necessarily talking about Emma murmuring that she hasn’t seen the plates, but multiple prophets have said that that’s what the verse is about. I went back to that last will and testament of Emma and they ask her questions about the manuscript specifically. I thought it was so interesting. Her son said, I should suppose that you would’ve uncovered the plates and examined them. Emma replied, I did not attempt to handle the plates other than I have told you, nor uncover them to look at them. I was satisfied that it was the work of the Lord and therefore did not feel it to be necessary to do so. And then it says, Major Bidamon here suggested did Mr. Smith forbid your examining the plates.

  00:41:39 And Emma said, I do not think he did. I knew that he had them and was not specially curious about them. I moved them from place to place on the table as it was necessary in doing my work. How disciplined and how faithful did she have to be to just, oh, I’m cooking dinner. Let me move these plates and I’m not going to uncover them. I’m just going to trust that it’s not meant for me to see them. And she wasn’t murmuring. She followed that council about the murmuring not for the things that she hadn’t seen. I think it’s also interesting to note she’s not the only person that it says something about murmuring. I believe it’s Oliver Cowdery also is told not to murmur. But in reference to that particular verse, Joseph Fielding Smith said, Emma Smith was human, possessing many of the characteristics which are found in most of us, being the wife of the man whom the Almighty had blessed.

  00:42:39 She felt, as most women would have felt under like circumstances, that she was entitled to some special favors. It was difficult for her to understand why she could not view the plates, the Urim & Thummim and other sacred things, which view had been given to special witnesses. At times, this human thought caused her to murmur and asked the question of the prophet why she was denied the privilege. And then Gordon B. Hinckley said, she said he was speaking of the plates. And then he said, evidently she complained because Joseph would not show them to her. The Lord is saying to her murmur not, complain not, accept what must be in my eternal wisdom and do not find fault. My takeaway from that was Emma had to be pretty remarkable that that was her answer at the end of her life.

Hank Smith: 00:43:28 I’ve heard it said that integrity is what you do when no one is watching. I like that you used the word discipline, a disciple of Christ. Same word.

John Bytheway: 00:43:40 It’s kind of a witness though. He had plates, she moved them. I mean, that would be pretty cool just to know he’s got something and I feel it. 

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:43:49 Yeah. She says in that same will and testament, I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper and would rustle with the metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb.

Hank Smith: 00:44:05 Hmm. It’s really remarkable that she never said, oh, accidentally, I’m going to move this cloth over. But she knows, she knows the commandments and she keeps them, which is just beautiful. I hope to be more like that.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:44:22 Let’s back up for a second to verse three. So this is where Emma is called an elect lady. It’s interesting because you have to understand that it was a call that was made 12 years prior to an official call to serve as Relief Society general president. So this is 1830. The Relief Society would not be organized until 1842. Joseph though, when he organized the Relief Society, he said, I gave much instruction read in the New Testament in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants concerning the elect lady, and showed that the elect means to be elected to a certain work and that the revelation was then fulfilled by Sister Emma’s election to the presidency of the society. She having previously been ordained to expound scripture. Sister Freeman has said that the elect lady, and I’m not sure if she was quoting someone when she said this or if this was just her thought, but she said, an elect lady has heavenly privileges with personal responsibilities. I think that Emma took that call so seriously to be an elect lady and waited for that call to officially come to her. A lot of the things that we’ll read throughout the rest of this section are things that would be done quietly and kind of in the background. But when that call came to be the Relief Society general president, she took it very seriously and was ready for it.

John Bytheway: 00:46:00 I just love the wording there. It’s not I’ve chosen you to marry Joseph, it’s no, you are an elect lady and I called you. Wow. What does that mean exactly? Well, I think that comes about later on, as you just said, with the Relief Society. But those last four words, whom I have called, I like to slow down when I read it,  that had to mean something powerful to her.

Hank Smith: 00:46:22 When I read this for the first time, I thought of, look, Emma is not elect because she married Joseph. She is elect long before this. I read a little bit of her history in preparation for this. I didn’t know her father Isaac fought in the Revolutionary War and that Methodism, just like Joseph had come through their town in Harmony, that Emma’s uncle became an itinerant preacher for Methodism. And then there’s this great family tradition. This is an article by Mark Staker says, A family tradition suggests that Isaac Hale overheard his young daughter Emma, praying for him in the woods near their home. And this contributed to his spiritual conversion. It doesn’t seem like this whole process started when she meets Joseph Smith.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:47:12 And then there’s also the story where Joseph is told that he’ll know the right person to bring with them to get the plates. He thinks it’s going to be Alvin, but then Alvin passes away unexpectedly. He realizes that it’s Emma, and at that point they were not even married. I think that’s significant as well.

Hank Smith: 00:47:34 Yeah. The restoration is not going to be brought about by one person. It’s two. It’s a couple.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:47:41 And a couple of the questions that came in were related to Emma and Relief Society. One came in from a Relief Society President asking, how can I inspire others to minister with true compassion? One thing that we see with Emma, I went back and read some of the Relief Society minutes from Nauvoo. I was struck by a couple of things. One was when The Relief Society was organized, she said, we are going to do something extraordinary, which we hear, we’ve heard that quote before, but I had never heard this second sentence. It says, when a boat is stuck on the rapids with a multitude of Mormons on board, we shall consider that loud call for relief. I think she had this ability to inspire people and to help them see what relief society meant. When you catch the vision of Relief Society, it’s such a beautiful thing that you want to be a part of it.

  00:48:39 It’s not something that is a burden to do. It’s something that you want to be there. I just had a baby. Exhibit A. When I had her, I was blown away by our little ward. We live here in Philadelphia. It’s an inner city ward, mostly supported by students. There were seven of us pregnant in the same building, which is the majority of our ward, and I was so well taken care of by the Relief Society. I just think, do you want to inspire others to be a part of Relief Society? You help them catch the vision. Emma went on in that quote to say, we expect extraordinary occasions and pressing calls, which means you’re going to do something that matters. And you may feel like it doesn’t matter, but it matters quite a lot. And I think that Emma, she understood that. Another thing that I noticed in those minutes was she talks frequently about unity and how important unity is, which I think means we don’t want to talk about each other behind our backs. We don’t want to be petty. The interesting thing is, I think this got really complicated for Emma. When polygamy started to become a practice, Jenny Reeder said Emma actually did not attend Relief Society. I believe it was 1843. She didn’t attend for an entire year. Jenny thinks that’s because it was too hard to go to relief society. I think that just as there are things that make it difficult for us sometimes. Emma was human. There was a big thing that made it hard for her.

Hank Smith: 00:50:21 I’ve heard multiple stories as I’ve studied church history of Emma basically having a hospital in her front yard. One is when they cross out of Missouri. We’ll talk about this later this year, but I mean it’s the middle of the winter and they’ve got to leave the state. They get into Illinois. Emma’s one of these refugees pouring into Illinois, yet she’s the one out in the yards taking care of the sick. And then again, John, isn’t it Nauvoo where the mosquitoes bring malaria and she’s again, out in her front yard where it’s become a hospital.

John Bytheway: 00:50:57 Remember that movie, they show you in Nauvoo of Emma just at a quick pace going from tent to tent, administering relief. I love that. The phrase relief society. I used to wonder, where did that come from? And if you go back to Jacob chapter two, you know how he’s talking about, I’m worried that you’re seeking riches and pride. He says, now, if you seek riches for the intent to do good, what does he say? Hank, to cloth the naked, liberate the captive, administer to their relief. And then King Benjamin picks up the same exact phrases. And I love to say to my classes, administer relief. If only we had some sort of, I don’t know, relief society or something,  because that’s what they do, administer relief. And that’s what Emma did. Relieve suffering.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:51:43 We’ll move on to verse five. There were a lot of questions related to Joseph and Emma’s relationship, which probably doesn’t come as a shock. But in verse five, Emma receives a calling to be a comfort to her husband. Jenny Reeder actually was nice enough to share with me a document that she put together, the letters that Joseph and Emma wrote back and forth to one another. And she said that in many ways, that is how Emma provided support, even at a distance to her husband. Obviously she provided support in many ways when they were not able to be together in person. You see Joseph and Emma communicating throughout and the love that they clearly shared for one another. And I think that that call to be a support is significant because Joseph would clearly need that support. But going to that last will and testament of Emma’s, she was asked by her sons, what was the condition of feeling between you and Father?

  00:52:50 And she said it was good. And then they said, were you in the habit of quarreling? And she said, no. There was no necessity for any quarreling. He knew that I wished for nothing but what was right. And as he wished for nothing else, we did not disagree. He usually gave some heed to what I had to say. And then this part, this one line breaks my heart. She says it was quite a grievous thing to many that I had any influence with him. I think that that speaks to the time that Emma was in, which was a time that women didn’t have much of a voice. And I think that she did. I think that she was a sharp woman with things to say, but for some reason people didn’t like that she had an influence on Joseph. That would be incredibly hard. I don’t know if you two have thoughts on that.

Hank Smith: 00:53:43 I don’t know about those people who had that difficulty. To me, I can’t see why you would have that. But maybe we live in a different time because the great people I’ve worked with, their spouse has often had that type of ennobling influence on them. A synergistic influence of they can do more together than they could apart.

John Bytheway: 00:54:09 Yeah. The word that leaps off the page to me, Hank, is thou shall be a comfort. We talked about this on a previous podcast. I love etymology. Entomology is the study of bugs. So don’t get that mixed up with etymology. Because that really bugs me. But no. So comfort means together strong. Well look at that Joseph and Emma together strong. Be a comfort. Be together strong.

Hank Smith: 00:54:35 Morgan I brought another letter from Emma to Joseph. They’re just beautiful to read.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:54:42 They are.

Hank Smith: 00:54:43 This is back when people wrote beautiful letters. I write emails, right?

John Bytheway: 00:54:49 You text in code 

Hank Smith: 00:54:52 Yeah. This is 1837. She says, I cannot tell you my feelings when I found I could not see you before you left. Yet I expect you can realize them. The children feel very anxious about you because they don’t know where you have gone. I verily feel that if I had no more confidence in God than some I could name, I should be in a sad case indeed. But I still believe that if we humble ourselves and are as faithful as we can be, we shall be delivered from every snare that may be laid at our feet and our lives and property will be saved. And we redeemed from all unreasonable encumbrance. That’s just beautiful language. I cannot tell you my feelings when I found I could not see you yet. I think you know, it’s an insight into their relationship.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:55:44 Another letter that I love while we’re on the topic of their letters in 1839, when Joseph was in Liberty jail, Emma wrote from Quincy, she had visited Joseph three times in the jail. And she says, the walls, bars and bolts, rolling rivers, running streams, rising hills, sinking valleys, and spreading prairies that separate us. And the cruel injustice that first cast you into prison and still holds you there with many other considerations places my feelings far beyond description. No one but God knows the reflections of my mind and the feelings of my heart when I left our house and home and almost all of everything that we possessed except our little children, and took my journey out of the state of Missouri, leaving you shut up in that lonesome prison. But the reflection is more than human nature ought to bear. And if God does not record our sufferings and avenge our wrongs on them that are guilty, I shall be sadly mistaken. And then she says, I shall live and am yet willing to suffer more if it is the will of kind heaven that I should for your sake.

Hank Smith: 00:56:55 That is beautiful.

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:56:57 So this is Joseph to her in Liberty Jail says, if you want to know how much I want to see you examine your feelings, how much you want to see me, I would gladly walk from here to you barefoot and bareheaded to see you and think it great pleasure and never count as toil. And Jenny said when he left the jail, his boots didn’t fit well and his feet were bleeding inside the boots. He did walk almost barefoot with old tattered clothes to see his wife. So how much did they love each other? I would say quite a lot.

Hank Smith: 00:57:33 I had the privilege a couple of years ago to go to Independence Missouri with Dr. Alex Baugh. Because the Community of Christ just adores Alex so much, we were able to get into the archives. Now this letter is now actually owned by our church, but at the time it was owned by the Community of Christ. It was just a privilege. They let us hold it. And this is the last letter written on June 27th, 1844 from Joseph in Carthage jail to Emma. Willard Richards was the scribe for the letter. But then at the bottom in different handwriting, this from Joseph. This is the last thing she reads from him. “Dear Emma, I am very much resigned to my lot. Knowing that I’m justified and having done the best that could be done, give my love to the children.” Morgan, thank you for bringing up the letters. That takes it to a different level, doesn’t it?

Sis. Morgan Pearson: 00:58:37 While we’re on the topic of the last thing that Joseph would’ve read from Emma, one thing I want to make sure that we talk about today is that Sister Freeman has talked about how the thing that struck her as she prepared her conference talk was the progression of the woman that we read about in Section 25, which was addressed to Emma when she was just 26, which I loved in general conference that Sister Freeman pointed that out, that she said she was 26 years old because I’m 35, almost 36. And when she said that, it was like, whoa. I did not appreciate how young Emma was. She said, we see this progression between Section 25 and then this blessing that Emma desired of Joseph before he went to Carthage. There we have this 40-year-old version of Emma. In section 25, the Lord shared with Emma his will for her.

  00:59:41 And in the blessing that Emma wrote, I think we see her hopes for herself. I read that blessing this week and I texted Jenny Reeder and I said, do you think that the Lord honored that blessing? Because there are some things that stood out to me. For example, she says that she wants to have a cheerful countenance, is one of the blessings that she says she would like to have. But toward the end of her life, the editor of the Boston Courier, Joseph Buckingham, commented that Emma had a countenance of sadness and her granddaughter commented that she had sad eyes and deep sorrow in her heart. I was like, do you think that the Lord honored the blessing? Jenny said, that’s a tough one. She’s like, I’m not really sure how that works, but I think Emma tried hard. We always say with All In that our hope is not with the question, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

  01:00:44 Our hope is not a bunch of self-righteous answers about why somebody is all in. But instead, this is how I would like to be. This is what I think being all in would look like. I think in that blessing, we get a taste of what Emma wanted to be. I love this that Joseph wanted her to write that blessing because it reminds me of the scripture in Helaman ten five, where the Lord says to Nephi, and now because thou has done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever and I will make thee mighty in word, and in deed in faith and in works. Yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, and this is the thing that reminded me of Emma. For thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will, it seems to me that Joseph wouldn’t ask her to write a blessing if he thought that she would ask anything that did not align with God’s will.

  01:01:47 Sister Freeman talked about, she said, I don’t know what I would’ve asked for, but listen to some of the things that Emma asked for. In that blessing, she wanted wisdom and the ability to live without regret. She wanted the spirit of God and the gift of discernment. She wanted to raise children who could contribute to the kingdom of God and who would call her blessed. She wanted prudence in caring for an aging body, a cheerful countenance, and she wanted to perform all the work she had covenanted to perform. She wanted to respect her husband and act in unison with him, and she wanted her loved ones to embrace the gospel so she could rejoice with them. If you Google Emma Smith’s Last Blessing, there’s a website for the Joseph Smith and Emma Hale Smith Historical Society, and that last blessing is there. It’s also printed in Jenny Reeder’s book. The final thing that she asks for is she says that whatever her lot in life, she might be enabled to acknowledge the hand of God in all things, and it feels almost as if she knows what’s coming that something hard. She had already been through so many hard things. She probably knew more hard was inevitable. When we see what Emma asks for, we get a sense for her heart. Maybe she fell short in some regards with those things, but that is the person that she wanted to be. I love that glimpse into Emma.

Hank Smith: 01:03:21 That’s fantastic.