Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast, dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:15 As together, we followHIM

Hank Smith: 00:20 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode to followHIM. My name is Hank Smith, and I am here with my honorable co-host John Bytheway. Hello, John Bytheway.

John Bytheway: 00:31 I’m honored to be co-honored with my honorable host.

Hank Smith: 00:37 A co-honorable host. Hey, we want to remind everybody, find us on social media. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram. Jamie Nielsen, our amazing team member runs that, and we would love to hear from you there. You can get Show Notes at followhim.co. Followhim.co. And we’d love for you to subscribe, to, rate, review the podcast. That really helps us a lot. So if you feel like we’ve helped you, please do that and help us a little bit. Now, John, you know the routine. We go out and search the church for one of the best minds on our particular lesson today. And we have found one. Who’s with us today?

John Bytheway: 01:16 Yes we have. I love this bio. Derek Sainsbury is a happy reformed sinner.

Hank Smith: 01:26 Amen.

John Bytheway: 01:26 That’s a big club.

Hank Smith: 01:28 Yeah. I love that.

John Bytheway: 01:30 Yeah. Happy reformed sinner. He’s married to his high school, sweetheart, Meredith, who he said as a nine-time cancer survivor.

Hank Smith: 01:39 Yep. Wow.

John Bytheway: 01:39 That’s a whole podcast in itself, or two, isn’t it? They have three adult sons, Bryant, Nathan ,and Joshua, and three dogs. He has a Bachelor’s Degree in Political Science and history from the University of Utah, a Master’s of Public Administration from Brigham Young University, and a PhD in American History from the University of Utah. And this is the part, Hank, that we were talking about before. He’s the author of the groundbreaking book, Storming the Nation: The Political Missionaries of Joseph Smith’s Presidential Campaign, which is a unique contribution. It’s the first book-length investigation of Joseph Smith’s 1844 presidential campaign. He’s authored several articles, speaks at academic conferences, assists several pro Latter-day Saint websites with content, he’s taught in various assignments and Seminaries and Institutes for the past 26 years, and currently is teaching in the Church History and Doctrine Department at Brigham Young University. And with these sections and this bio, I’m so excited to welcome Dr. Sainsbury. welcome and thank you for being with us today.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 02:51 Thank you. I appreciate the invite. It’s good to be with you.

Hank Smith: 02:54 Yeah, we were lucky, we had Derek in Ancient Scripture in our department over at BYU, but they recently stole him from us in Church History and Doctrine. And it’s a pretty rare teacher, John, and you know this-

John Bytheway: 03:08 That does both.

Hank Smith: 03:09 … that can teach in both departments at BYU. That’s pretty incredible. Hey, Derek, we want to give you all the time in the world. So we’re studying Sections 133 and 134 today. So why don’t you back up how far you need to, let our listeners know where they need to kind of come from in order to get the most out of these sections?

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 03:34 Awesome. Well, let me just put out just a really quick trajectory of where I kind of want to go to combine these and kind of where your next podcast will go. So Section 133 kind of defines the Restoration’s purpose. It was originally an appendix to the Book of Commandments and kind of fleshes out Section 1, which was the preface that was only given a couple days earlier. And it has this real pre-Millennial urgency that Jesus is coming, and there’s this real split in the world between Zion and Babylon. And we’ll go into all this, and what that means as far as Christ’s Second Coming and that we’ve got to go out and prepare the world.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 04:19 Section 134 is four years later, and the reality has set in of what Zion looks like in America. And it’s not pretty. And we’ll talk about how this statement that was included in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants about government comes out of those experiences, comes out of this trying to build Zion in the United States. And then I thought at the end, I’d take a little time to kind of bridge the gap between 134 and 135, which is the next section, which is many years later with Joseph Smith’s martyrdom, and kind of fill in that gap with a little bit of history that actually flows from these two sections and kind of where my expertise is.

Hank Smith: 05:12 Derek, yeah, we’re excited. John and I are along for the ride. We love it.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 05:16 Well, so like I said, with Section 133, this is given on November 3rd, 1831. So we have to remember, again, that the Church is so young and everyone is a convert. There’s probably about 600 members at this time, with 13 million people in United States and about 1 billion in the world. And so this is a very extremely small group.

Hank Smith: 05:45 So Derek, just for our listeners’ sake, this one comes out of order, right?

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 05:51 Yes, yes.

Hank Smith: 05:53 Yeah, because the last one we studied with Dr. Holbrook, we were in 1843. We were moving right along through Nauvoo, and we’re jumping way back to Ohio, the beginnings of Ohio, right?

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 06:09 Yeah. That’s absolutely right. In fact, they’ve just the previous summer, so just a few months earlier, Joseph Smith and other early members had gone down to Jackson County, Missouri and received the declaration of it being the center place for Zion and had dedicated the temple lot.

Hank Smith: 06:29 Okay. So we’re jumping back 12 years.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 06:32 Yeah. We’re way back. And then they come back to Kirtland, and at this conference that is held, they’re trying to decide which revelations to put in the Book of Commandments. And so the reason why there’s this out of order is that the preface is received on the first day of the conference. It’s a two-day conference. The day after the conference, what we call Section 133 was received. At that point, it was called the Appendix. It wasn’t even a section. It was kind of like the appendix of a book that kind of fleshes out where we go from here kind of a thing. And so that’s why it’s so out of order.

Hank Smith: 07:17 So we should probably have our listeners go back and listen to our episode on Section I with Anthony Sweat. And you can hear it.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 07:24 Yeah, absolutely.

Hank Smith: 07:25 Yeah. If you haven’t listened to that one, we’d encourage you, go back, listen to Section 1, then come back and listen to section  … this episode we’re doing on 133, because those were given just two days apart, sounds like.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 07:35 Yeah. And the neat thing about that is there’s a lot of similarities of phrasing and ideas that get fleshed out more in Section 133, which it’s kind of cool to be able to kind of read them side by side. The other neat thing about the context here is it’s held on November 1st, which is a Tuesday. And I don’t think that’s random. November 1st is All Saints Day in the Christian tradition. And of the congregations in the 1800s that celebrated All Saints Day, the Methodists were pretty adamant about celebrating it. And since many early members of the Church are former Methodist [Joseph had leaned towards that], I don’t see much coincidence in the fact that Section 1 is received on All Saints Day, because the message is to all Saints and then to all the world in both the Section 1, the Preface, and Section 133, the Appendix.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 08:37 And so here’s the background that Joseph Smith writes in his History. At the end of this conference, he writes, “at this time there were many things which the elders desired to know relative to the preaching the gospel to the inhabitants of the earth and concerning the gathering, and in order to walk by the true light and be instructed from on high.” So they want to know more about the gathering, preaching the gospel and know how to live in such a way that they’re doing it right. And so the Lord gives that and more, which is always so wonderful about the Lord in revelation, he always gives us even more then we’re asking. And so this section overall is kind of like prepare for the Second Coming, there is Zion and Babylon, there’s no mention of a specific nation, it’s just nations.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 09:29 So, it’s kind of dividing the world between Zion and Babylon. And then at the Second Coming, it will be a great day for Zion and a terrible one for Babylon. And then basically this is why I’ve called Joseph Smith, and this is why missionaries are going out to the nation, and read these commandments that they’re bringing with them is kind of the setup.

Hank Smith: 09:52 I don’t know, something just hit me as you were discussing this, that Section 135 is coming and the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. And I love how this book finally gets arranged, in the end, it gets arranged with, we watch him grow, we watch him grow, we watch him grow and he restores so much. And just before he’s killed, let’s take a look right back at that very beginning moments for him when he was just a brand new president of the Church. And I just, I really like how this ended up. We build it up, let’s go back and take a look just before we lose him in 135.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 10:29 Yeah. Well said. Well, let’s dive in then. Just like the Preface in Section 1, it starts out with the idea of, “Hearken all you people of the earth, hearken all you people of the church.” So that idea of not just listening, but living. And then he quotes Malachi, the Lord does, when he says … Well, he’s actually quoting himself through Malachi, but, “The Lord who shall suddenly come to his temple.” So right away there’s this urgency to this message. And that can be several things. One of course is going to be, he is going to come to the Kirtland Temple in five years from then. But also they’ve just received the revelation just months ago about the temple in Zion, where God will reign with his people. So there’s that connotation to it as well.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 11:21 And then the next verse is, “The Lord who shall come down upon the world ,with the curse of judgment on the ungodly. “So the other thing about suddenly coming to his temple is the idea of coming to the world. So the ancient Hebrews and the Hebrews at the time, the Jews at the time of Jesus believed that the Heaven, Earth creation was a temple, that God was coming to be with his people. And so when it says he’s suddenly coming to his temple, it has many, as it always does in scriptures, it has many applications. He’s coming to the Kirtland Temple, they don’t know that yet. It obviously makes sense he’s going to be coming to the Missouri Temple when it’s built. But just the whole idea that he’s also coming to the entire world, to-

Hank Smith: 12:09 -the Earth itself. 

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 12:10 Yeah, to cleanse that temple. Just like he does in his first time here on Earth. So I really like that idea, it speaks to me. And then we get this idea of gathering, which has been going on for less than a year in the Church. So let’s just look at a couple verses. Verse 4, “Sanctify yourselves. So prepare you, prepare you, sanctify yourselves, gather ye together.” Then down in verse 7, “Go out of Babylon, gather ye out from among the nations.” Down to verse 9, “Go ye forth unto the land of Zion.” And then if you skip over to verse 12, then all of a sudden it’s, “Flee unto Zion.” So this idea that, again, this urgency, it kind of builds up through the phraseology here. And the reason why is in the verses before, that the Bridegroom is coming, Jesus.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 13:17 He’s coming to meet his bride, which is the Church. And so people of all nations are being given the chance to be a part of it, to be a part of this great thing that’s going to happen. And while he says in verse 15, “Don’t do it in haste, prepare how you’re doing this.” But also he goes back to quoting himself from the Bible where he says, “Don’t look back. Once you’ve decided to come to Zion, don’t look back,” the idea of, “Remembering Lot’s wife. “So I like that right off, again, there’s this urgency about doing this, that this is so important to do.

Hank Smith: 14:01 Yeah. And you’re right, I’m seeing all this from Section 1, all the same language. I love these. They’re bookends-

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 14:09 Exactly.

Hank Smith: 14:10 -to all these revelations that came between them.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 14:13 Yeah. So let’s investigate this idea of Zion for just a second. So Zion is actually mentioned zero times in the New Testament. So for Christianity at large, this is kind of a different idea. In the Old Testament, it’s there 153 times. But in the Book of Mormon, which is preceded this, 42 times. And 191, more than the Old Testament in the Doctrine and Covenants in totality. By now, they’ve only had some, but not all of them. And then 14 times in The Pearl of Great Price. So Zion is a very Old Testament and Restoration kind of idea. And they think it comes from the Hebrew,  tzion, which means castle or citadel, which I think is really cool too, because-

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: -they originally named the place where the Jebusites were that David takes their Citadel, Mount Zion. Right? Then later they move it a few hundred yards to the Temple Mount, which we know as Mount Moriah. There’s this. It’s got ancient roots, but not as big a message in Christianity, post-Apostasy, right, I mean, even in the early times.

Hank Smith: 15:34 The Protestants of Joseph Smith’s America wouldn’t be talking about building Zion.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 15:39 Not building Zion, right? They may talk about Zion as another name for Jerusalem, or for the Jews, all of Israel as Zion, but not for Christianity. In the Book of Mormon, of course, a lot of those are quoting Isaiah, right, who quote Zion a lot, but Nephi is also talking about Zion in an independent way, “Bring forth my Zion at the Latter-days if the Gentiles don’t fight against Zion.” The other thing is that’s important for us to know is the term New Jerusalem, which is nowhere in the Old Testament, only two times in the new Testament, which is both in the Book of Revelation, but in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, eight times each, and then one very important one in The Pearl of Great Price. Why I say it’s important is that in Moses 7:62, it combines Zion and the New Jerusalem as the same thing, okay, and this has already been revealed by this time.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 16:44 Latter day saints understand Zion in a way completely different from the rest of the world basically, that Zion is this New Jerusalem, and the Book of Mormon says that it’s going to be built somewhere in the Americas. Right? It’s a whole different idea and a deeper idea as well. From that same chapter, we learn that Zion is not just a city, but it’s a way of life. It’s a community, right, based on covenants, that’s one in heart, that’s one in mind, that dwells in righteousness with no poor among them, right, back in Section 133, verse 9, that it can grow, right, that it can grow from its center place. I mean, that’s really important to understand that they’re looking at Zion and understanding Zion so much different than anybody else is. What Zion is, this idea of this community, and Joseph Smith is going to later say, there’s already been seeds planted, right, but Joseph Smith is going to later say that the whole reason to gather in any dispensation is to build temples, to make those important covenants, and so that’s so different.

Hank Smith: 17:58 Build a people, not just a city. We want to build a people.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 18:01 That’s right. That’s right. A temple people. That’s just so different from the rest of Christianity, which we’ll talk about, especially the consequences that lead to Section 134.

Hank Smith: 18:13 What’s interesting to me, I don’t know if both of you have had this experience, but the central parts of the Book of Mormon that talk about the gathering and Zion are the parts that everyone skips. Second Nephi, Jacob, Chapter 5, and the Savior’s second visit. 3 Nephi 20-26, those ones are the least talked about, least read, and those are the three major, those are probably the three, I would say, in the Book of Mormon, that highlight the idea of gathering Israel to Zion. We just go, “Oh, I don’t understand that, and we skip over it.” In my classes, we’re not skipping this. We’re going to understand it by the time we’re done, so help me, sit there and feel the Spirit. Now. All right.

John Bytheway: 19:01 Look how much, that has been like the President Nelson. This is the greatest work to which you can ever be involved is the Gathering of Israel. This is why you’ve come now. This is everything. That’s a good. point.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 19:15 Let’s talk about Babylon, which is where they’re being told to run from. Okay? Let’s look at it anciently for a second. Babylon begins with the idea of Babel, right, the Tower of Babel, of Nimrod, and whoever he is conspiring with to build a tower to God. It has always been, and where the confusion of the nation’s happens and the confusion of the languages. In fact, the Hebrew word that they use means confuse. Okay?

Hank Smith: 19:45 Oh, okay.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 19:46 But the Sumerian definition of Babylon, and that comes from that story obviously, the Sumerian definition, their own definition of it is the gate of the Gods. It’s that same idea, right, that this is the center of the universe. This is the center of the galaxy, and this is where the Gods meet. In the ancient times, it was the superpower, right, of all superpowers before the Persians and the Romans. In most of the biblical times of the Old Testament, Babylon is numero uno, right, and it becomes a world center for commerce, for art, for learning. Some historians estimate that there could have been as many as 200,000 people in the city itself, which is in those times not even close. Nothing else is even close to that. The walls were, according to an ancient historian, 80 feet thick and 320 feet tall.

Hank Smith: 20:51 My word.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 20:53 When you were approaching the city, you could see one of the seven Ancient Wonders of the World, the hanging gardens, where they had created this elaborate plumbing system, where it looked like there was this beautiful Garden of Eden just floating above this building because the plants themselves hid the columns that contained the water. I mean, it was everything, right, and hence, one of the reasons why it’s connected with wickedness. The other is, it’s, of course, that group that comes in and destroys Judah, destroys Jerusalem, destroys the temple, and then takes captive those that are left of the Jews. Right? It’s always going to have in Judeo-Christian thought this idea of the world, and evil, and wickedness.

Hank Smith: 21:47 Yeah. Just for our listeners who aren’t versed in their ancient history, this is about what, 10 to 15 years after Lehi flees Jerusalem. This is Babylon taking over, and they take captive little boys that we’ve read about. Daniel.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 22:03 Right.

Hank Smith: 22:04 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego. This is right during that same time, and Babylon was the, they came in and conquered, and it was brutal.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 22:11 It was brutal.

Hank Smith: 22:13 I’ve read about that destruction of that city. Lehi was right. It was going to be bad. John, what were you going to add there?

John Bytheway: 22:20 I love what you said, Derek, and I hope people will just take a minute and go back and read the Bible Dictionary entry on Babylon because it talks about the height of those walls and what a wonder of the world it was. Now, I think it’s nothing but sand. I think there was a story about, was it President Kimball and Marion G. Romney or something? Did you see Babylon? He said, I saw what was left of it, I think, when they toured there. We sing that song so often. “O Babylon. O Babylon, we bid thee farewell.”

Hank Smith: 22:54 That was written by my great-great-grandfather Richard Smythe.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 22:58 Wow.

John Bytheway: 22:58 No kidding.

Hank Smith: 22:59 I just had to throw that in.

John Bytheway: 23:03 Maybe you should sing it. “Israel, Israel, God is calling,” come out of Babylon, right, because it’s coming down and …

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 23:11 Lands of woe. Right?

Hank Smith: 23:14 Zion’s walls are going to ring with praise. Right? Leave Babylon come to Zion, so thanks grandpa.

John Bytheway: 23:21 That’s great.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 23:22 Just two more things that help us with the insight here is that Babylon, the glory of the Chaldees falls in one night with almost out a fight. That’s important because the Lord through John is going to use that in the Book of Revelation as well to say it looks great. It looks awesome, but no man knows the hour and the time, and then in one day it’s all gone. What happens is the Persians actually, the city’s built on top of the Euphrates River with grates that go down into the river. They took a huge chunk, the Persians, of their army up water and built a reservoir, and then waited to divert it until the National Festival of the Gods for Babylon, and then divert the river in the middle of the night, and the Persian army, while everybody’s partying downtown just walks right in the river bed, right under the gates, and takes the city and Babylon falls in one night. That’s the other important thing.

Hank Smith: 24:27 Cyrus, right? Cyrus, King of Kings.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 24:29 Yeah. The idea there though, right, is come out of Babylon, right, and don’t wait because when it falls, it will fall so suddenly, so quickly, that there won’t be time to do anything else. The other part of that that’s instructive because as you read in verse 5in Section 133, “Go ye from Babylon. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.” That comes from the Book of 2 Chronicles where the men who are bringing back the temple instruments, except the Ark of the Covenant, because Indiana Jones had to get that for it all to work out, but all of the other parts of the temple that had been taken by the Babylonians were given back to the Jews to take back, and they had to be clean to carry those. There’s also us idea of Restoration that’s coming out of that, right, that fits into this overall narrative really well, that we’ve been captive so long in Babylon, and now God is restoring us, including the beauties and glory of the temple.

Hank Smith: 25:30 Because Babylon becomes a symbol for, what would you say, worldliness, the world, the Great and Spacious Building almost.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 25:39 Right. Yeah. Yep. Confusion, deception, right, all of those fit. Right? The Lord makes sure we understand that in verse 14 where He says, “In the midst of wickedness,” which is spiritual Babylon.

Hank Smith: 25:56 Yeah. I think it’s important because we use it all the time as a symbol, so this is a great discussion to say symbol of what? Because it was admired too. It had a worldliness and a wealth. Like you said, even technology, as far as the hanging gardens, that was admired, and then the Lord calls spiritual Babylon. I’m so glad you brought that in.

John Bytheway: 26:20 I think it’s smart for us to help our listeners connect it to the Great and Spacious Building. What does Nephi call it? “The Great and Abominable Church. Right? John even references it in the Book of Revelation. There’s a point in the Book of Revelation 18, where the Savior calls to the people in Babylon and says, “Come out of there, my people.”

Hank Smith: 26:44 Yeah. I love how you talked about the way it was taken in one night because I think that matches, and this is what you were doing, I think, the I come quickly, suddenly without warning, type of an idea that Babylon’s going to fall like that. I thought, that’s a stratagem. That’s what the Book of Mormon, we call a stratagem, wouldn’t it? Divert the river and go up underneath.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 27:06 Exactly.

Hank Smith: 27:08 “Let’s take this place by stratagem.”

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 27:11 And they did.

Hank Smith: 27:14 Derek, it would probably be this idea of Babylon could never fall.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 27:17 Exactly. The Titanic could never sink and Babylon could never fall.

Hank Smith: 27:22 What an interesting connection. I’m loving these connections across scriptures.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 27:26 Yeah. This whole, so there’s this Zion/ Babylon dichotomy in these sections, not just 133, but in all the sections so far that have talked about it. There’s Zion where the Saints are gathering and then everything else is Babylon, and nations are just talked about as nations, right, that they don’t matter as much as citizenship in one of these two kingdoms, if you will. The reason that’s important is as we said before, that the marriage of the lamb, that the return of Jesus is going to happen at Zion, right, first. In fact, throughout this section, we see three different Second Comings. We always like to group the whole thing into one, but we see actually, as we go through this, we’ll see there’s, he talks about it three different times as three different things. He spends more time on some than others, but it’s important then, that that’s why in verse 16 he says, “Hearken in here and listen, everybody on earth, please listen my elders.” Right? “I’m calling on everyone to repent,” right, “That’s why I have brought the gospel out.” “Make the paths straight.” Straighten out your path so I can come to you. “You’re in the place where I’m coming for the hour is nigh.” Right? Again, that urgency, that immediacy, that then also feeds in with that fall of Babylon. The first of those is in verse 18, and then in also 44 and 45. This comes from the Book of Revelation, “When the land shall stand upon Mount Zion and with him 144,000 having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.” Then if you’ll skip to 44 and 45 with me, and then we’ll break it all down, “Yea, when thou comest down, and the mountains flow down,” we’ll talk about what that means a little bit later, “Thou shall meet him who rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, who remembereth thee and thy ways, for since the beginning of the world have not men heard nor perceived by the ear, neither hath I seen, O God, besides thee, how great things thou has prepared for him that waiteth for thee.”

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 29:44 Isn’t that beautiful? I just love the language, and it’s so beautiful what the Lord does for me, at least, in Doctrine and Covenants, about how he just pulls from everywhere and makes these beautiful phrases and beautiful analogies that then we can go back and look at these original ones and it’s our …

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 30:03 If you can go back and look at these original ones and it’s already been embedded to teach us what’s going on and I just love that.

John Bytheway: 30:09 I’m glad you said this, because as I was studying this, as preparing today, I thought, “Wow, first you’ve got some Isaiah in here, and then you’ve got some book of Revelation in here, and then you’ve some Malachi in here.” And it reminds me of an interesting phrase at the end of Jesus’ visit in the New World that said he expounded all the scriptures in one. And I’ve always wondered, how do you get a ticket to that, first of all? But second of all, it’s like all of the scriptures, as you said, they came from Him in the first place, anyway. But he had them all together in a nice harmony. And boy, this section is pulling from everywhere. Now we just got 1 Corinthians in there.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 30:53 Yeah, we’re a year and a half in. Right?

John Bytheway: 30:56 Yeah.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 30:58 I think it also, as you said that, I thought, John, that’s also maybe another way to look at the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times or the Gathering of all Dispensations.

John Bytheway: 31:07 All coming together.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 31:07 Yeah. That all the scriptures from all the dispensations, He’s weaving together in these revelations in the doctrine of covenants in such a beautiful way. So this first appearing at Mount Zion, we learn later in Section 84, verse two that Mount Zion is the New Jerusalem or the Center pPace, which is in Jackson County, Missouri. And we know the temple will be built there. We know the Savior will appear there to the Saints that are there. But we also know a few dozen miles north of there, at Adam-ondi-Ahman, there’s that great meeting that you talked about in an earlier episode.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 31:50 So before He comes to the world, there’s this beautiful opportunity where He’s meeting with the gathered tribes of Israel except for Judah. And it’s just beautiful, and the things that will… John Taylor talked about Him coming to our homes and us being able to give Him a meal and shake His hand and things like that. Now, whether that’s exactly how it’s going to happen or not, I don’t know. But the idea that He comes to us first, those of us that have prepared, I think is just so beautiful and it teaches us why we won’t be unprepared. So if we’re preparing now, we get to be a part of this, part of His Second Coming, the world doesn’t know what’s going on, but we already know what’s going on.

Hank Smith: 32:33 Yeah. We’ve left Babylon and gone to Zion.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 32:37 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 32:38 In a previous podcast we had Dr. Robert Millet and he talked about that, the two different metaphors used for His Second Coming. The thief in the night is for those that are unprepared, that are wicked, perhaps. But the woman in travail is for those of us who are watching the signs of the times. A woman knows. She’s known for months. And so it’s nice to have the Lord give us all this information and say, “I’m letting you be in the know so it won’t overtake you suddenly like a thief in the night or like Babylon falling.”

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 33:15 So, “Their father’s name written on their foreheads,” that’s again, from the Book of Revelation, it’s the idea of sealing, it’s the idea of temple covenants, more specifically, and so forth. So in verse 20, he says, “Behold, He shall stand upon the Mount of Olivet.” So the Mount of Olives. And then if you jump over to verse 35, it says, “And they also, the tribe of Judah,” that’s who he’s appearing to, at the Mount of Olives, which is across the valley from the temple Mount of Jerusalem, “that after their pain,” which is the persecution of the War of Armageddon or whatever that is that’s going on, “Shall be sanctified in holiness before the Lord ,to dwell in His presence day and night and forever.” So His Second Appearance seems to be the rescuing of the Jews at the end of the War of Armageddon or the Battle of Armageddon or whatever you want to call it.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 34:09 And it dawned on me once… this teaches me so mu-… we had those verses in the Old Testament of, “They’ll look upon me and see the marks in my hands and my feet and who did this?” And, “This was done in the house of my friends,” and the Messiah they’d been waiting for and praying for that, they didn’t believe was Jesus, those that were alive at that time, obviously. He comes the way they wanted Him to come. He comes to save them from the nations of the world. And then He’s going to be teaching them the first part, the real reason I came. “I came the way you wanted me to come. But the real reason I came is so that, as that first says, you can become sanctified.”

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 34:59 And since He is, is the Lion of Judah, I just find it so personally touching for me about the character of the Savior, that He, it’s not missionaries teaching the Jews, He’s going to come and be with His tribe, be with His family. Save them the way they wanted to be saved, but then teach them the greater thing that He’s done. Not just for them, but for the whole world. And I’m not going to be qualified to be there, but boy, I hope they do some kind of urim and thummim and recording or whatever, because it’s going to be a 3 Nephi 17 moment. And it’s just going to be beautiful and awesome, I think.

Hank Smith: 35:41 Derek, I love that idea. It won’t be, this is a guilt trip. This is who I was wounded at the house of my friends, thanks a lot. It will be, “Come my family, the house of Judah.” I love… man, Derek, that was beautiful.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 35:54 I was just saying, and again, that idea, “You came the way we wanted you to come, that we thought you would come.” That God does… I personally, I feel that way, that He is able to mesh what He needs for me and what sometimes I think I need for me, if it’s not harmless. And I just love the sweetness of that moment, that idea.

John Bytheway: 36:20 And I just wanted to say, thank you for equating that like a 3 Nephi 11 moment, because it says it right there, “They’re going to be looking at His hands.” And right in 3 Nephi 11, “He invited them one by one to come look at my hands, look at my side.” He invited them to touch His side, “and the wounds in my feet.” And you mentioned Zechariah 13:6. That’s the one, “What are those wounds in your hands?” And then I invite our listeners to Section 45, gives even more detail, “My hands and in my feet.” And these are terrific moments that have been prophesied about coming to… oh, thank you for saying that. I love trying to imagine that as more of a tender 3 Nephi 17 moment. Yeah. I like thinking of it that way.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 37:13 Yeah. And of course He splits the mountain just by landing there, if you will, and creates that valley of safety in a river that runs from underneath the temple Mount to the Dead Sea. And you think of is Ezekiel’s metaphor about that, how everything that the water touches it heals and restores.

John Bytheway: 37:34 And restore the Dead Sea.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 37:35 Yeah. Yeah. And so it’s doing the same thing there that Jesus does. He restores the people in 3 Nephi 17. All the people who are ill, or whatever, are restored. And so you’ve got these two really awesome, tender moments that are happening before He comes to the whole world. But the house of Israel is really… you just have to be making… keep covenants.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 38:03 It’s such a strong, long argument about what it means to be a descendant of any tribe or whatever. But the idea is, is that it’s this invitation that He’s saying both in the preface one and the appendix 133, that I’m talking to all of you. “Come in, you’re all my children. I want you all to have these great experiences that I have not seen, ear have not heard, hasn’t even entered into your heart,” before the other stuff happens. You know? And I just really love that. I just think it’s so powerful and so awesome.

Hank Smith: 38:40 I wanted to bring up something really quick. Verses 18 and 19, you have some language here that’s very Old Testament, and John, hopefully our podcast is going to keep going into the Old Testament, so we can talk about this. Also, very New Testament is this idea of having the Father’s name written on your forehead. So the idea here, and you guys can help me out, is the idea of ownership. Who do you belong to? And in the Book of revelation, you have two choices. You can get the mark of the Beast, or the mark of Babylon, or you can get the ark of the Father. So those are your two choices, which team are you on? That’s really what that is.

Hank Smith: 39:21 And then verse 19, when it talks about the Savior being the Groom, do you guys want to expand on that? The idea is that Israel, His family, is going to be a bride and He is the groom and we’ve made covenants. And you can see this throughout the Old Testament, especially Isaiah. This woman, the whole church, all of Israel who just can’t be faithful to her husband and He’s always inviting her back, inviting her back, saying, “Come back and let’s re-covenant, and be married again.” Any thoughts on either of those is before we keep going?

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 39:57 I love… it’s another beautiful thing. And we get so many male role-models, that I love this, that the Church is a woman, right? In Revelation, “Being arrayed in this beautiful white linen,” which is the righteousness of the Saints. And, of course, it’s not because of our righteousness, is because of His righteousness and His Atonement that’s changing us. There’s a band I love, a Christian band called Casting Crowns. And they have a song called, “Wedding Day, “which is just a beautiful analogy of combining this idea of Christ returning with the Church, with us as individuals, individual brides. And our history, like you were talking about, Hank, of not being the best, being sinners, and the idea that He looks at her and all of that melts away.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 40:57 It’s just so beautiful and inspiring to me. And of course, it’s the end of the gospel as well. The whole idea of creating this beautiful relationship that goes on forever between a husband and wife. And it’s the central symbol, it seems, of His Second coming. And so there’s just this amazing beauty to it that we can all step into that role and think about that idea of being sealed to Christ. Of being married to Him in righteousness… not the usual way of marriage, but you get the point I’m trying to make. And it’s just so personal and beautiful and full of love, that idea. And so, again, just awesome.

Hank Smith: 41:44 And we take His name upon us in our covenants. We’re the bride and we’re taking His name on us. In fact, the only chapter of Isaiah the Savior quotes to the Nephites. John, you can help me with what chapter this is, 3 Nephi, where He quotes Isaiah 54, and it is the most beautiful chapter on this woman who is distraught and lonely and feeling outcast. And He goes and gets her and takes her home. It’s a beautiful idea that’s all throughout scripture. Derek, you are just blowing us away today.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 42:24 So the ending of that song, the last part of the last verse is, and He takes her hand as the clouds roll back and walks her through the gate. “Forever we will reign.” Which also comes out of Revelation and two times in this section and in verse 45, that again, He’s done all the work and yet we’re going to reign with Him. And, again, it’s just this beautiful for me. It just is so powerful.

Hank Smith: 42:57 It is. I remember Dr. Alonzo Gaskill teaching me once, even about Adam and Eve, you can see this relationship. That Eve is the Church, all of us and Adam can represent Christ and she leaves the presence of God and he goes with her. It’s all throughout the Old Testament and it is really an overpowering idea. Yeah, it’s something we can all identify with. It’s just beautiful.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 43:26 The Third Coming is going to be later. And there’s this middle section here where in verse 21, it says that, “He utters His voice from Zion and from Jerusalem.” This idea that there’s a capital in both places and, “His voice shall be heard among all people ,and then shall be a voice,” as is described in other places, “Like water and thunder, which shall break down the mountains and the valley shall not be found.” Now for these next several scriptures, early Latter-day Saints, prophets, and others since then, have interpreted everything here literally. And I don’t have a problem with that at all. I believe that can be the case, but as with all scripture, there’s always, for me at least, often more powerful thoughts in the symbolism of what’s going on. Because that’s the way that those that wrote the scriptures were from that kind of a culture.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 44:26 They’re writing poems and telling stories as opposed to our logical adding up words to deal with something. So what I’m going to say now, I’m not discounting the fact that these things could happen in a literal way, but I think there’s more power to them, for me right now, in the symbolism of what they’re teaching. So mountains in the ancient world, as used in the Old Testament, were symbols of great nations, great powers. “And when He comes, He shall break down the mountains.” So all of those kingdoms are gone and then valleys would be just…

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 45:02 And then valleys would be just the opposite, right? Those kingdoms or those peoples who are just the opposite. They’re not even flat, they’re valleys and he’s going to raise them up. So this whole idea of this flattening of the nations, of the peoples, that there’s just him. There’s no more superpowers, there’s no more nations that are being exploited. There’s just him. And he shall command the great deep and it shall be driven back into the north countries and the island shall become one land. So in the Old Testament, water is often a symbol for the nations of the world. Particularly the wickedness of nations of the world. And land is more about the good people of the world or Israel. And so he’s pushing away all the wicked, right?

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 45:53 What he’s doing here is he’s pushing away all the wicked and then taking all of humanity. And in the next verse, verse 24, all coming back together in one place, right? Pangea, if you want to look at it literally. But the idea that we’ve been scattered since Babel and as people in different languages, different tongues, different cultures. And with his return, all those earthly governments die, or gone or collapse. And everything comes back together in the millennium and everyone comes back together in the millennium. And then that’s followed by verse 25 where he says, “I will stand in your midst and shall reign over all flesh.” So I just love that. Again, that that thought that we’re all children of God, we’ve all been divided from one another because of humanity, because of sin, because of whatever you want to call it. But that the great cause of Zion leading into the Millennium is to do just the opposite, to gather us all back. Taking the best from each culture and gathering us all back. So I think that’s beautiful that way.

Hank Smith: 47:06 In the Great Intercessory Prayer, Jesus’s central request is be one. “Be one, no division. No division, be one,” and here it is.

John Bytheway: 47:15 He’s Zion.

Hank Smith: 47:15 The earth will come together again before it was divided. And you think of Satan as the Great Divider.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 47:21 Right.

Hank Smith: 47:22 Right? Any way we can divide people, let’s divide them and create contention and division.

John Bytheway: 47:27 I feel like sometimes the scriptures are pretty plain and sometimes they’re written in a genre called Apocalyptic. I had Dr. Richard Draper, my Book of Revelation professor, that was so great in helping us understand. When you’re reading Daniel, when you’re reading Revelation, when you’re reading Ezekiel, it’s a different genre and it’s heavily symbolic. And you gave a beautiful meaning to that there. Yeah, maybe some of these things are literal, maybe they’re apocalyptic and you can see a symbolic meaning in the people coming together. I’m really glad you said it that way. And even some of the commentaries I’ve read have said, “We don’t know everything about this, but look for the Lord to reveal more and look for the symbolic meanings here.” Do either of you have a comment about Apocalyptic versus a more straightforward way of writing?

Hank Smith: 48:21 Oh, yeah. John, I do this all the time. My central example I use with my students is the moon will be turned to blood. I said, “Do you think that’s literal?”

John Bytheway: 48:29 Is that a metaphor? Is that…

Hank Smith: 48:31 And it could be. God could turn the moon into a big old blob of B+, right? But it could also be figurative in which the moon is like God. It’s looking at the earth and it’s angry or embarrassed and so it’s red, right? And so you can definitely. Figurative and literal is a scripture study skill that everyone needs to have if you’re going to get the most out of the scriptures. I think Derek gave us a great example of that right there.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 48:57 And I think from 26 to verse 34 is the return of the Lost Tribes. And I mean, the commentary on this as you said John is all over the place. They’re on a planet, they’re in the center of the earth, they’re underneath some icebergs-

John Bytheway: 49:14 Polar ice cap.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 49:16 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 49:16 Bermuda Triangle, my favorite Bermuda Triangle.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 49:20 Yeah, Bermuda Triangle. So there’s all these things. And again, I’m not discounting that anything could be possible but even again here, the symbolism is just beautiful. The north country. So in Hebrew, north is hidden or concealed. And so they’re lost, right? The tribes went north out of Nineveh and they’re lost. And this is all about the Lord remembering them and them coming back, right? And instead of mountains flowing down, ice is flowing down. And ice is only used that I could find at least, very few times in the Old Testament. And the one time that it’s used, in Job 6: 16 it says hiis friends come to comfort him and they’re really not comforting him. They’re really making it worse.

Hank Smith: 50:07 Yeah.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 50:09 He says that they are blackish, which means one of the few times black is used in the scriptures to mean you’re bringing me down, right? You’re putting on sackcloth and ashes. That they are blackish by reason of the ice. You’re so cold or wherein the snow is hid. And there’s this idea that the Lost Ten Tribes are lost. They don’t know their identity and they’re stuck, like someone can be stuck in ice. And when the Lord remembers them, the ice starts to flow down and they’re able to smite the rocks that are keeping them in the way, right? So we’re going back to that whole mountain analogy. Of course, there’s the Moses stuff with smite the rocks too. But then a highway is lifted up for them to be able to get to their temple blessings. And so again, Latter-day prophets in our time period have interpreted the Lost Tribes of being more mixed among the nations.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 51:15 And if you look at it that way then this is beautiful, right? They’ve been stuck in their spiritual progression because they don’t know who they really are. And in that way, you can even talk about the Book of Mormon as being the highway that leads them past the ice and to Zion, where they can receive those temple blessings. And where they, “Sng songs of joy, “right? Where they get to be a part of those beautiful things. And so again, that’s just another example where I’d rather feel that than try and wonder if they’re at the center of the earth.

John Bytheway: 51:49 I love that because I have always felt like lost is not geographic as much as personal identity. And the Jews never lost their identity as House of Israel, but I’m reminded of one of the early talks where President and Sister Nelson spoke together and she talked about being with a group of a hundred women in Russia… Or under a hundred women she said, and they were 11 of the 12 tribes were in that group. And then someone called her, “We found Levi,” because they didn’t have Levi there. And we’re lost in that we don’t know who we are. And a Patriarch helps us get found and tells us, “This is your identity.”

Hank Smith: 52:34 This is who you are.

John Bytheway: 52:35 Yeah, So instead of geographically lost, I’ve always felt like it means more of a identity type lost.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 52:43 And for them, getting lost was always going north, right? So the Syrians came down, took them north, Babylon didn’t come across the desert, they went through the Mesopotamian Crescent and took them from the north. The Nephites are always escaping further and further north to try and get away from the Lamanites. And so yeah, I’m with you that again, the beautiful symmetry, the beautiful symbolism, the Apocalyptic symbolism that can be both things, right?

John Bytheway: 53:15 Yeah. And when they’re found, they’re coming out of the north. Well, maybe not north geographically, but out of this place where they were initially lost. That’s what I tell my students.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 53:26 So in verse 32, just to kind of wrap up our talk here is that they, “Fall down and are crowned with glory in Zion.” And this has been interpreted by the prophets as temple blessings. And if I could just pause for a second, it kind of takes us back to the things we were talking about earlier. In the ancient temples, the ancient temples were places for priests and kings and prophets to be anointed, right? In fact, the word Christ is the same word Messiah, which means, “The Anointed One.” And those were the three groups of people and Jesus Christ has often talked about as our prophet, priest and king, which are these anointed offices. So again, the idea here is that at baptism, we’re washed clean and then with the laying on of hands, we are anointed with the Holy Ghost just as Jesus was anointed at his baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 54:21 And so we become prophets, lowercase P. He’s the capital P Prophet. But as the Book of Revelation teaches us that, “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, “right? The gift of prophecy, that that begins our walk with him to become like Him and the full restoration of temple blessings that the tribes are getting here. And that we’ll get to a little bit later when we’re talking about actually Section 1:34 of all things bring in those other two, right? That the idea of priest and king. And for females, priestess and queen. And so there’s just this powerful idea that temples are what it’s all about and that becoming… Because we’re going to see him a little bit later talk about his redeemed. And we’re not just redeemed, we’re transformed. We become what he is in a sense, right? And so I just love that idea of again, that we are anointed ones with lower case A’s right? We’re not the Anointed One, but we are anointed ones. Noble and Great Ones ,if you want to, from the very beginning.

Hank Smith: 55:41 Yeah. This is just fantastic stuff. If you look at the chapters of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon and Nephi and Jacob and so many others, Jesus in third Nephi, they’re all looking forward to this day of gathering. This day of let’s bring everybody home and they know who they are and the way you’ve described it is not just an administrative, “Yeah, let’s get everybody here.” There’s a spiritual beauty of love, of let’s gather everybody. Let’s get them back home and get them feeling good again.

John Bytheway: 56:13 We are a family. We are one big family.

Hank Smith: 56:17 Yeah.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 56:18 I love a line that LDS Historian, Richard Bushman writes in one of his books where he talks about the idea that’s in the Section 1 and it’s in Section 1:33 here that we create Zion, missionaries go from Zion out to the world, out to Babylon, gather people back to Zion. Those people then have children and have missionaries and stuff. And the line he writes is that Zion will bring about world renewal, right? That the Millennium is really not timewise, but the idea of what the Millennium is begins with Zion. That when Jesus comes, he’ll already find a Zion–millennial people, and that will play into our Section 1:34 discussion as well.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 57:04 But that idea that it’s more than just gathering. It’s more than doing these rituals in the temple. It is about gathering the family as you said John, of God back together to renew the earth. And it starts with our own individual renewals and renewals of relationships. And in Zion, we’re literally building not just the Millennium, but Heaven, right? We’re building those relationships with the Savior and with each other. And so I’ve just always loved that line that Zion begins the process of world renewal.

Hank Smith: 57:39 World renewal. And I’ve heard it said before that the King can’t come here until there’s a Kingdom.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury: 57:45 Right.

Hank Smith: 57:45 Right? We’ve got to build a Kingdom for the King to come to. We can’t just sit around and wait for him to come.

John Bytheway: 57:54 Please join us for Part II of this podcast.