John Bytheway: 00:05 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Hank Smith: I’m ready! How about Hyrum Smith? This is not someone we’ve talked about at length in any podcast yet, but someone who deserves to be talked about at length.

Dr. J. B. Haws: Hyrum is is one of these heroes of the Restoration. One thing I’ve noticed, Hank and John, that you do very well as you think about, you know, parents doing Come, Follow Me. And I think one story about Hyrum that every parent should know and every family should know. And, and, and I, I have loved talking to my kids about this Hyrum. So he’s five-years-old and, and Joseph, and thinking back to that episode, when Joseph was suffering his terrible leg infection and surgery, one thing that Lucy Mack Smith remembered when she later writes the history. And I think this must’ve stood out so much because it, it probably was in some ways unexpected for a 12-year-old, but that Hyrum asked to take Lucy’s place to press day and night. She says Joseph’s leg because of that pressure–that sort of rubbing it provided Joseph a little bit of relief. So I love this image of a 12-year-old brother and a seven-year-old brother and Hyrum sitting there rubbing, pressing the leg, to give day after day, to give his little brother some relief. That, that, to me, pretty much encapsulates what I, what I think is true about Hyrum, is his mother used these two great words that he was filled with “tender sympathy.”

Hank Smith: Obviously, we’re going to look more and more at this relationship over the course of this year. And Come, Follow Me. Because Hyrum, definitely, this isn’t the only time we’re going to hear about him. Do we know anything about how Hyrum reacts in the early earliest times to Joseph?

Dr. J.B. Haws: And this is one of our difficulties that I’m sure you’ve talked about, and we’ll continue to continually talk about this year is that we don’t have a lot of primary sources of contemporary sources about how the family reacted.

Dr. J. B. Haws: (01:55) So most of it is reminiscent. But one thing that I think does become clear both by reminiscent accounts and just by their own actions is that the Smiths were Joseph’s earliest converts. And that a . . . and I think we see that with Hyrum too, that they were, they were fully onboard–fully supportive and fully trusting that their son, their brother. And I think we sensed that in Section- You know, kind of reading between the lines and Section 11 of Hyrum’s enthusiasm to be part of this. He comes he comes to Harmony to visit just on the heels of Samuel’s visit in May 1829–that seems when it’s likely that this revelation came. And so I think we get a revelation to Joseph, Sr. Then, we know that Samuel came down and was baptized, and then we have Hyrum coming. So, I think that that speaks to their enthusiasm and their support and wanting to be part of it. So absent the contemporaneous records, I think . . . but everything points to the fact that they were enthusiastic and . . . and convinced believers.

Hank Smith: I don’t think we can’t overemphasize this. You can’t. At least in my experience, you cannot fool your family. It’s just . . . you just can’t. People will come up to my wife and I, you know, people who don’t, who just know me from, from this podcast, or from whatever a talk I gave or something. And they’ll say, “Isn’t it so great living with him. I can’t imagine how great it!” And my wife, my wife is so good. She is, “It is just so great.” But she knows me. She knows me! She’s seen me at my best. She’s seen me at my worst. And yet here Joseph’s family is all in that should, that should tell us something.

Dr. J.B. Haws: (03:35) Right. It should tell us something to that. That is a fact we should never forget. Yeah.

Hank Smith: (03:40) Yeah. These people who knew him intimately. They knew his ups and downs. They believed him. I remember Elder Bednar saying that when he was called to be the President of then Rick’s College. His son, he looked at him and said, “You? You know . . . like . . . don’t . . .they have someone better?” You know, aren’t we grateful for moments like that. Yeah.

Dr. J.B. Haws: (04:02) I think right along those lines, I mean, what you get the sense in Section 11 was that Hyrum is ready to go. I mean, he is so enthusiastic. He, he wants to be sharing this message. And Section 11 is a bit of restraint, a restraining revelation saying there are a few other things that you should be spending your time on right now, in terms of preparation, getting ready, other things that I need you to do before your tongue is loose before you’re sent out to preach. But I think that’s that very fact speaks to higher-ups’ enthusiasm for spreading this, this new message that has come to his brother.

Hank Smith: (04:34) Yeah. And I think there’s . . . there’s often something to be said, and this is something I’m sure we’ll hit later this year, J.B., but the humility of an older brother taking that kind of background role. But that, I don’t know, maybe Hyrum doesn’t have the pride I have. But I being the youngest, I had nothing but older siblings to kind of exert their power over me. The idea that me, the younger brother, I’m going to be in charge. I don’t think any of my siblings would have been totally excited about that idea.

John Bytheway: (05:09) It is a kind of Laman, Lemuel, Nephi thing, and they never bought in for that.

Hank Smith: But then it comes up, right? “You are our younger brother. You will not be our ruler! Our younger brother will not be our ruler!”

John Bytheway: (05:18) See, let’s have a war in Alma. Hey, you know why? Because Laman was older than Nephi. “And that was like 500 years ago, but we’re still irritated by this.”

Dr. J.B. Haws: (05:27) -That fits so well with the human condition. And I think you’re right, Hank, I think that speaks to Hyrum’s goodness. I, you know, and later on, the doctrine comes much later, in Section 124. We have this great tribute to Hyrum in this revelation, that what the Lord says that he loves Hyrum because of the “integrity of his heart.” And because he loves what is right. It’s hard to think a . . . of a higher compliment than to the integrity of your heart. And that you just are someone who loves what is right. And, and that, that seems to be higher than-

John Bytheway (05:58) -that was in my notes. I wanted to make sure we hit that Section 124, verse 15, and what a thing to hear that in scripture about yourself. That’s awesome.

Hank Smith: (06:06) And then the application comes right. And I don’t want to . . . I don’t want anybody walking away from this podcast feeling, “Oh, good. I’m a worthless, terrible person.” But it does make me want to analyze my own life. Do I love what is right? Do I love what is right? You know, it’s, there’s one thing about avoiding evil because it’s bad. Another to, I don’t want evil. Right. I don’t . . . I don’t want it. My heart is, is not after it. I can’t picture of President Nelson in his office. You know, when he sees there’s a movie like, “Oh, please don’t be R! Oh, it’s R! Oh, I think I might go anyway.” Right? This pulling towards that which is not good for us.

John Bytheway: (06:47) -lot of . . . a little bit of advice, like some of the some of these great phrases, like, “Seek not to declare my word, but to obtain it.” I mean, there are some things you want to do first. And it seems like it would have been really wonderful, maybe wonderful, slash terrible, depending on what the Lord said, just to be in Joseph’s presence. “Hey, can I get one of those? Can I get some personal scripture for me?” Didn’t . . . don’t the Whitmer brothers do the same thing and get like exactly the same section? And then I wonder if they came at a time where it was, “You know, just go to Joseph Smith, Sr. and get your patriarchal blessing.”

Dr. J.B. Haws: (07:20) Because there’s such a small group, they’re a very intimate group. And they are all probably where they are because of the kind of hearts they have and the kind of enthusiasm they have. And they’re seekers. It feels like there’s this sense that everybody wants to know, “What role can I play? I’m so excited to see this come forward. What role can I play?” So I, I think they do feel a lot like patriarchal blessing parallels, and that’s become a great legacy for the Church that all of us can kind of have that, that same sort of message from the Lord.

Hank Smith: (07:50) Yeah. I think I’d be overly tempted. I think Joseph would probably get tired of me. “I already gave him . . . you have the- ! But what is it the Lord wanted from me today?” Yeah. Or else I might be like, “Joseph, let’s do this in private. But I want to know what the Lord thinks of me, but don’t tell anybody else.” Because that’s a scary moment. Right? “What does the Lord want for me?” And then the Lord, the Lord doesn’t hold back.

Dr. J.B. Haws: (08:13) It’s a good lesson about timing. Probably many, many of our listeners are familiar with the classic Elder Oaks talk “Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall. And if we’re not familiar, not familiar with that, look that one “Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall.” One of the stories he tells and this is, this is one of those stories that you just, at first you’re like, “Wow, that’s not how I expected this story to end.” So he was saying, “When I was, when I was President of BYU,” this is Elder Oaks. “When I was President of BYU, they were building the Provo Temple. And I said, ‘I distinctly remember a conversation with President Harold B. Lee, who expressed concern that with the proximity of this new temple, that BYU students would become so enthralled with temple work that they wouldn’t neglect their studies.'” And so, presently charged Elder Oaks not to let that happen. And so at first, you think, “Okay, wait, wait, wait. The President of the Church is saying to the President of BYU, ‘Don’t let your students become so enthralled with temple work that they neglect their studies?’ ” And, but I think there was an important point in, in about timing. And this is where Elder Oaks said that “Our strengths can become our downfall,” in that, that if we go to extremes to forget what things the Lord has also wants us to be doing, we may not be the kind of instruments in his hands that he needs us to be. And so BYU students, “You have an important time period to be preparing yourself, to be doing your studies that will make you better instruments in the long run. Don’t let even something good like temple worship overwhelm you because of timing.” And so I, I hear something similar to the Lord saying to Hyrum is that “You are going to be such an instrument in my hands in order to be a better instrument. These are some of the things you need to do to prepare right now. These are some of the things you can be devoting your time to right now, so that you will be the kind of instrument I need you to be, when that time comes.”

John Bytheway: (10:02) One of the things I hear from my students at some, especially they’re, they’re starting a new semester, right home from their missions. And they, they literally say, “I feel so selfish because I’m just working on all my classes all day long and taking tests and stuff.” And, and that’s it. That’s that perfect answer. Hey, this is a timing thing that you are now preparing to become an even better instrument for other people, for your future ward, future family. And, and there is a time for you to, Stephen Covey might say to “sharpen the saw,” you know, “I’m so busy sawing down this tree.”

“Well, why don’t you sharpen the saw?”

“I don’t have time. I’ve got to saw down this tree.”

“Well, you have to stop and, and become a better instrument.”

So yeah, I like the preparation in here I’m looking at like, maybe I’m jumping ahead, but I’m looking at verse 12, “put your trust in that Spirit, which leadeth us to do good–yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit” (D&C 11:12). This is all a preparation-type thing. And we had a wonderful discussion, as you might’ve expected, when we talked about Section 9, about the burning in the bosom-type of revelation to help Oliver Cowdery translate. Look at verse 13, “I will impart into you my Spirit, which shall enlighten your mind, which shall fill your soul with joy” (D&C 11:13). So he’s being taught how he will feel the Spirit. And I think how most of us if I dare say, that as more of an enlightening clarity than we might get rather than a physical burning.

Dr. J. B. Haws: (11:32) Yeah, and what a great connection with Sections 8 and 9. I think all of us should put these Section 11 verses in our, in the, in these early Doctrine and Covenants sections. Because what I love is that Doctrine and Covenants is not just a book of revelations. It’s a book about revelation. It’s a book about how we can each get revelation. And these are some verses that we need to add . . . when we say, “Well, how does the spirit communicate with us?” It enlightens us. It fills us with joy. It prompts us to want to be just and humble and judge righteously. And, and those are the kinds of things we can recognize when we’re feeling. And yeah, I mean, you, you hear the Lord saying Hyrum, “Recognize the spirit, keep learning how revelation works. That’s going to be crucial in your, in your ministry.” And I think that same thing, I mean just could be lifted right off the page for each of us to, we we’ve, we’ve all got to learn that language of the spirit. And these are things we can look for.

Hank Smith: (12:28) Yeah, this is beautiful. It almost says if the Lord knows he has a dual audience here. He has Hyrum, who he’s speaking to, but he also knows how many of us are going to read this and early in the Doctrine and Covenants. And he says, “Yes, this is a book of revelations, but you, you need to understand what the Spirit feels like. So I’m going to kind of give you a little prep work here in the beginning.” You know, when students come to me or a teenager, come to me and say, “Brother Smith, I don’t know if I’ve ever felt the Spirit.” I try not to . . . I try not to make fun of them because that’s not a good thing to do. But I automatically go to this idea of wait, what? What, what I hear, and this is kind of facetious but what I hear is someone in front of me going, “I don’t know if I’ve ever breathed before.” Because I’m like, “Really? You don’t know if you’re standing here. I promise you, you breathe.” Because they just don’t know that they felt the Holy Ghost. So I usually take them to Section 11, verse 12. “Have you ever wanted to do good?”

“Yes.”

“Have you ever wanted to be honest? Just?”

“Yes.”

“Have you ever wanted to be humble and to not judge other people?”

“Yes.”

“Guess what that was? That was the Holy Ghost.”

They’re like, “Wait, I feel that way all the time.”

Shocker! The promise of the sacrament is that they “will always have his Spirit to be with them.”

So for me, this is a great verse to help my children and help my students understand you’re going to feel the Spirit most of the time because the Lord is so good. And you’re you have, you have the gift of the Holy Ghost. “Have there ever been times where you didn’t want to do good? Have there ever been times you didn’t want to be honest? Is there ever been a time you wanted to judge other people? Where you felt like you were okay doing that?”

“But yeah, those are pretty rare moments.”

But those rare times when I don’t have the Spirit. So I think it was Elder Bednar who said, “Don’t try to focus so much on the moment you have the Spirit,” because as if it’s a once in a year type thing, I, you know, EFY girls’ camp or whatever, “it’s the times where I don’t.”

Dr. J.B. Haws: (14:30) I think Hank that that’s, that’s a great approach. I do think this just corresponds so nicely with, you know, the Galatians’ idea of the fruits of the spirit. I mean, there that we see these manifest by what they prompt in us. And the kinds of actions that, that the way we feel, the things we want to do, that the kind of people we want to become. I love what you said. And I love that Lord’s declaration at the end of Verse 12, “This is my spirit.” And then, and then the confidence that, that I think when we start to recognize this, and we start to say, “Oh, okay, I can relate to this.” Then in verse 14, “and then shall you know, or by this shall, you know, all things whatsoever, you desire of me, which are pertaining to things of righteousness in faith, believing in me that you shall receive.” I mean, we start to realize, “I am feeling the language of the spirit. I am here hearing these promptings. This is part of me. I can know truth. I do know truth.” This is . . . I think it builds a lot of confidence.

Hank Smith: (15:25) I love that. “Do you want to do good?” That’s the Holy ghost? “Do you want to be honest? “That’s the Holy ghost. He even says it before, “Trust in that spirit, “which, you know, he fills in the blank, and then he says, “This is my spirit.” I don’t know how much more clear he can be with saying, “This is my spirit, by the way, this is my spirit.”

John Bytheway: Like our friend and colleague, Brad Wilcox, he likes to say, “When does a fish know he’s surrounded by water? And the answer is “When he isn’t.” And it’s like, really, “Whoa, I’ve been surrounded by water all this time?” And I think Elder Glen L. Pace talks about, “Well, for a lot of people, it’s new. For us, we’ve been so used to it. We’re not sure we’re feeling it.” We hear converts come in and are all excited because they had been without it for a time or, or recognize it, perhaps. So that, especially with kids, that it’s a still, small voice. It’s not going to knock you over. It’s not thunder and lightning. It’s subtle. But you know, and you can tell your kids this. My kids during General Conference, I mean, they’ll say, “And now we’re going to hear from Elder Holland,” and I can see my kids look over each other. Like they’re kind of excited. And, and after that talk, “Were you kind of fired up. Did you feel like you just had your mind enlightened? Did itfill you with joy?” And take a minute and say, “Well, what do you, what do you think that is? Why were you so fired up?” And I think King Benjamin’s people, you know, “We have no more disposition to do evil” (Mosiah 5:1). I always asked my students, “Was it permanent?” And no, I don’t think it is because you have to read the next chapter. “Now I’m going to give you a name. I’m going to tell you how you can always have this spirit.” And it’s such a critical discussion. When I think when young people say, “I don’t know if I’ve ever felt the spirit,” it’s good to spend some time on that.

Hank Smith: Absolutely.

Dr. J.B. Haws: (17:17) I love, I love the focus on the very enlightened. And I think you said, John, you used the word that clarity. I mean, this is, this is everywhere. I mean, you think about in every cartoon, an idea is represented by a light bulb goes off and, and with Joseph Smith’s description, that “pure intelligence flowing into us.” Those sudden strokes of ideas. I think those are . . . those are moments. We realized that that clarity, that enlightening, those light bulb moments, that . . .the Spirit can bring those kinds of things that pure those sudden strokes of ideas.

Hank Smith: (17:50) Oh, this is wonderful. I, John, I don’t know about you, but I feel this way after every one of these interviews. I feel like I want to go out and do something good. I want to go out and tell everybody how much I love the Prophet Joseph Smith. And to me, I very clearly that is the presence of the Spirit. So we hope our listeners feel this way, that hopefully they’re not like, “Well, at the end of your episodes, I’m usually quite tired. And just hoping that you’d be quiet sometime soon.”

John Bytheway: (18:19) This verse 9, “Saying nothing but repentance.” I’m afraid I’ve come across missionaries who might make that a little too. Literally, if we take that absolutely literally, then what are we saying at every door? “Repentant, repentance, repentance.” That’s the only thing we say, right? My son, when he was on his mission in Iceland, one of his first letters said, “Dad, I’m going door to door, annoying people.” And that was a difficult moment for me. And we went back into Preach My Gospel together, back to this verse, even. And it’s very helpful to see what the Bible Dictionary definition of repentance is. It is so positive, “a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world.” Go and give people a fresh view about God, about oneself, about the world. Does the Lord really want us to say “repent, repent, repent” in that way? And some have this idea of this elevator theory of I’ve got ten seconds with this person. I’ve got to hit him with everything I’ve got–right now–kind of forgetting Section 4 has the word patience in it.

Dr. J.B. Haws: (19:31) That strikes me as so true, John. And I think your missionary son was lucky to have you as his dad. I also think all of us in the Church are lucky to have President Nelson right now. We all should be paying attention to what President Nelson is saying about repentance–how we should view repentance. This is, I think, one of the great gifts of his ministry is how we should think about repentance. I love that idea, “a fresh view of the world.” It’s re-choosing. It’s turning in a new direction. It’s refreshing. And then that’s I think the spirit of the idea that we want to do it every day and we should be so grateful for it.

Hank Smith: There’s the idea of we can preach repentance without being condemnatory, without coming across . . . I think of Aaron when he first goes to the Lamanites remember, and he tells them that they need to repent, and their response is, “How do you know that that we have need to repent? How do you know that we are not a righteous people? We’ve built sanctuaries to assemble our God.” So, I don’t want to come down on Aaron here because I think he is, you know, a thousand times the prophet-missionary I’ll ever be. But I think his approach was maybe a little more condemnatory. “I’m going to tell you need to repent without kind of understanding of who you are. His brother Ammon was more of, “I’m here to serve. I do know you need to repent, but I’m here to serve. I’m going to win your heart.” Right? There’s an interesting moment that I, that I wonder if it happens between Alma 21 and 22, because Ammon shows up and gets there and get Aaron out of prison. Right. And there’s just gotta be, “How did you do that?”

“Well, I went to the King. I baptized the King.”

“Oh, you baptized the King. How’d you do that?”

“Well, I first decided to serve him, you know? And,then win his heart.”

“You didn’t walk into their church and tell them how bad they were, did you?”

“No, no.”

Because, because the next chapter, Aaron gets a chance to teach Lamoni’s father. And he says, “Oh, King, if you will spare our lives, we will be thy servants.” So I wonder if there was a little brotherly conversation.

John Bytheway: “Aaron, you’re doing it wrong.”

Hank Smith: (21:40) So maybe we have our definition wrong when the Lord says, “Say nothing but repentance.” We think of . . . I’m going to walk in and tell you everything you’re doing wrong, where J.B. is saying, “That’s not what the Lord means by that.”

John Bytheway: (21:51) I keep hearing this phrase from President and now Elder Uchtdorf, “To share the gospel in normal and natural ways.” Somebody in London started a cooking show of how to cook Mexican food on their Facebook page in London–a couple of missionaries. Because they’re in their apartment, you know, during the pandemic. Wow! And the responses they’re getting was, “Oh, you guys are like normal guys.” And I think if we’re walking in with our 15-second repent message every time, we’re not coming across in “normal and natural ways,” to quote President Uchtdorf. So I thought how funny there, “Hey, you guys are normal guys.”

“Yeah. We’re going to show you how to cook Mexican food from our apartment here in London.” How cool is that?

Hank Smith: (22:31) All this discussion, that’s not to say there isn’t a time or a place to call someone to repentance. We see that throughout the scriptures, many prophets coming to “cry repentance” to people. So what do you think, J.B.? Where’s the balance between “I’m going to, I’m going to teach repentance, but I’m not, I’m going to try not to, you know, be condemnatory to people?”

Dr. J.B. Haws: (22:52) That is the $64,000 question, and what I think this is one of the places where I think the Doctrine and Covenants has a lot to offer us. The Doctrine and Covenants has a lot to say about that, about sharing the gospel and how we handle this. And “follow the spirit” can sound kind of trite. And it, and it also can almost sound like we’re dodging the question, but I think that’s what the Lord’s message is to Hyrum. And again, and again, is this idea of “open your mouth, and it will be filled.” “Treasure up the words of life. And I’ll help you meet out the measure that every person needs.” Even to Hyrum in the same section, Section 11, verse 21. “If you seek to obtain my word, then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea the power of God unto the convincing of men.” And so I think, I think all of us whose all this to say, we have, we’ve got to, to be in tune with the spirit. We’ve got to live in such a way that the Spirit is with us. That . . . then we can have the confidence that when we open our mouth, it’ll be filled because we’re the kind of people we’re developing that kind of charity, that pure love of Christ. That’s just who we are naturally and normally, as John said so well.so I think one of the Doctrine and Covenants’ messages over and over again is “treasure up the words of life, and then trust that when you open your mouth, the Spirit can help it be filled.” It can. It can give you the right measure at the right time.

Hank Smith: (24:15) A person who is really seeking to repent daily will be good at teaching repentance because I’m doing it every day in my life. Then I’ve got that Spirit, and I’m . . . I’m going to say the right thing that that person needs because I personally am repenting. So maybe at one point, I probably struggle with this, you two never do, is teaching repentance without . . . without personally repenting. That will lead to a problem.

Dr. J.B. Haws: That’s beautiful . . . I think you’re right because what that personal attitude does is helps us to avoid self-righteousness. Self-righteousness really is probably the thing that just cuts all of this off when there’s a sense of pride or arrogance that we’re coming from. You know, as John said, “a condemnatory place.” I mean, if, if we’re that kind of person, if we’re repenting, daily, if we embrace that, then that helps us avoid that self-righteousness

John Bytheway: (25:13) I don’t know if you remember this, and I won’t mention this professor’s name, but I remember a day in our master’s program one of our professors came in and basically said, “I’m having a hard day.” And kind of told us about something, he, he a judgment or something he said to one of his friends. And boy, I mean, I just remember that day, cause he was like,” I’ve felt . . . I said this to my friend, and I’m really sorry.” And it was just putting his own heart on display for us. And I loved what Hank said there. “I want to tell you all how to repent, but I don’t want to go through it myself.” But bringing it back to two missionary work and what Hyrum’s being told, I think that maybe my weakness is I’m in constant search of The Formula, and maybe that’s what missions are. We all have a little bit of the Law of Moses in our spiritual DNA. Oh, well, if I do this, this, this investigators will do this. And what the Lord saying is, “You, you’ve got to have treasure up my word, seek first to obtain it. And the Spirit will help you.” And, and that is harder. Isn’t it? Instead of “here’s the formula.” It’s harder to say, “You qualify for revelation, and you might say something different to this person than to that person and to this person.” And also, a recognition, and this is some more application, is that Jeremiah 16:16, where the Lord says, “I’ll send forth hunters and fishers.” And one of my responses to my son was that “Hey, I was kind of in a Fisher Mission. We could talk to as many people all day long as we wanted to in the Philippines. It was wonderful. You’re in . . . you’re in a Hunter Mission. It’s a little harder. People aren’t as willing to talk about things like that. And I can’t give you a formula. Neither can Preach My Gospel give you a formula. Except to say, ‘Seek the spirit. And you’ll get those words when you need them.’ ” Which sounds like what Hyrum is being told, “First, obtain the word, seek the Spirit. So that you’ll know in the moment what to do.”

Dr. J.B. Haws: (27:16) John, that’s beautiful. That really speaks to me. Probably many of our listeners notice this in the Book of Mormon, Come, Follow Me curriculum. But, but if any of us missed it or maybe we should read it again. But one of the talks that was mentioned late in the Book of Mormon year was Elder Oaks’ challenge, “The Challenge to Become.” That’s what I think we’re describing is that this is, this is not a, a check the list formula. This is about becoming a certain kind of people. That this is the C.S. Lewis quote that “We may think that God wants obedience to a specific set of rules. What He really wants are people of a particular sort.” And I think that’s a Doctrine and Covenants’ message over and over is how to become people of a particular sort. The challenge to become something, to become this kind of, kind of-

Hank Smith: -It’s not about doing the right thing about becoming the right person.

Dr. J. B. Haws: Yeah.

John Bytheway: (28:04) I always use the evolution of the song _I am a Child of God _by Naomi Randall. First, “Teach me all that I must know.” President Kimball suggested, “Teach me all that I must do.” Then when I heard Elder Oaks his talk, I thought, “Teach me all that I must be.” And remember, Elder Lynn Robbins gave that talk about, “We have is to-do lists, but what we need is to-be lists. And to-be lists are never done. That was a fantastic observation as well. But thank you.

Hank Smith: Let’s look at this principle that towards the end of Section 11. I’m seeing common language. J. B, you called this “a restraining revelation,” and I’m seeing this over and over. He says in verse 15, “You’re not called to preach until you’re called. Wait a little longer.” In verse 16, “Have patience.” In verse 19, “I want you to keep my commandments.” Verse 21, “Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word.” And then verse 22, “Study my word.” I mean, this definitely . . . the Lord’s message over and over is, “Not yet. Not yet. I want you to do some personal work first before we go do this.”

John Bytheway: (29:13) Look at verse 26 too. Look at . . . read 26.

Hank Smith: (29:16) “Therefore, treasure up in your heart until the time, which is my wisdom that you shall go forth.” So there seems to be, there’s obviously the message here to Hyrum, which is, “I know you’re excited. I know you want to get out and teach, but I want you to do some private work first.” Is that really the message to Hyrum and to all of us? There has got to be a personal transformation before we can go do this? Don’t go preach our excitement?

Dr. J.B. Haws: (29:43) Oh yeah. I think that’s well said. I think it does have that, you know, that great Doctrine and Covenants phrase, “What I say into one, I say unto all.” It shows up in several places. And this, this feels a lot like that. This is a very universally applicable revelation . . . sentiment. And, and maybe the specifics are different for us. And we may feel prompted that, you know, we, we hear sudden strokes of ideas that this is what I need at this time. This is what I needed to transform. But I think that principle is all over the place. That, yeah, this is the Lord is asking us, calling us to become instruments in His hands. And there are things we can do to be better at that.

Hank Smith: (30:21) John and I both love Stephen Covey, and this was a common Stephen Covey principle was the idea of “private victories precede public victories.” And so often, I want to move to the public victory point of life. But this revelation seems to be, “Let’s, let’s get that private victory just really solid before we move into the public domain.” I think the Lord said this when he said, “The wise man builds his house upon a rock.” A foundation is kind of the unseen part of the house, but this unseen part is the vital part–that’s going to keep us going. You know, that’s going to keep us standing forever. So work on the unseen parts of life, and those aren’t as fun. Because I’m not up in front and people going, “Wow, you totally . . . that changed my life. Thank you so much.” There is something to be said of, “I want to go teach. I want to go help people,” but before we can really be effective publicly, we must first be sound . . . whatever word you want to fill in there, privately.

John Bytheway: (31:24) He said, “We must warm them before we warn them.” That was like, that sounds like going back to the back to the Ammon thing. But he, I think he’s also said, “I can’t hear what you say cause what you are shouts so loudly in my ears.” And, but I don’t want everybody to pack their bags, we’re going on a guilt trip. It’s just that, yeah, there’s a reminder here. We’ll be able to teach repentance when we are constantly striving to do that. And boy, did Joseph have to go through it there as we’ve, as we’ve talked.

J.B. Haws: (31:53) The thing that I think all of us should realize, and we as readers of the Doctrine and Covenants is . . . is how this was came to be so fulfilled in Hyrum’s life. I mean, he took this to heart. And so I think about just over a year from this moment, he’s going to meet a young Parley P Pratt. And he becomes the first encounter for Parley P. Pratt of the Smith family. Parley P. Pratt records that they stayed up all night, Parley and Hyrum. And he said that Hyrum unfolded the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the Restoration. And then, and then Hyrum hands him a copy of the Book of Mormon as Parley P. Pratt leaves. So he becomes the . . . “the one whose tongue is loosed” in teaching all of this to Parley P. Pratt. And then, and then William McClellan comes to Hyrum, and he has met a few other Elders. And William McClellan says he and Hyrum had a four-hour conversation, after which William McClellan asked Hyrum to baptize him. Two of the original Twelve Apostles in this dispensation–Hyrum becomes their missionary. “The one whose tongue was loosed” to in all of these ways, so that this promise really was fulfilled in Parley P. Pratt and William McClellan’s and others’ cases. One other fulfillment that I just think it’s great to see how this section comes to pass is verse 19. “Cleave unto me with all your heart, that you may assist in bringing to light those things of which has been spoken–yeah, the translation of my work.” In just a matter of months, Joseph’s going to entrust Hyrum with the transporting of the pages to the printer. So Hyrum and Oliver are the ones who stay in Palmyra while the Book of Mormon is being printed, and Hyrum is the one who carries the transcribed pages from all over to the printer and oversees this work. We can’t even overestimate how much trust that required, and Hyrum was the one charged to do this. These promises, these expectations are fulfilled. And then, plus, he becomes one of the Eight Witnesses. So I think that we see what the Lord prophesied in verse-in Section 11, coming to a pass. And Hyrum and lives up to these charges.

Hank Smith: (33:52) I have a question for both of you. Then if I want to become a Hyrum Smith-type individual, I want to become someone who can really be a wonderful instrument in the hands of the Lord; How do I look at verse 21? “Seek not to declare my word, [not yet], but first seek to obtain my word.” And then he says in verse 22, “Study my word.” I want to have this private victory before this . . . before I go out and seek to, you know, be this instrument in the Lord’s hands. How do you, “obtain his word, to treasure up in our hearts?” And then let it kind of blossom naturally out of us?

Dr. J.B. Haws: (34:27) Good, Hank, to focus on that verb obtain and to think about all that goes into that. How do we obtain something? How do we own something? 

John Bytheway: (34:37) It becomes yours. It’s that word? It’s not just the scriptures. It’s my scriptures-

Dr. J.B. Haws: (34:43) -that alone provokes him some really interesting thoughts about, “How do I own this?” So it’s just become so much a part of me. It’s the fabric of my being.

Hank Smith: (34:52) I’m thinking of almost the roots and an, a tree, right, where the roots are the unseen part. And if my roots are strong enough, the tree is going to withstand everything. And Hyrum does, Hyrum withstands, what others seemingly can’t ]–along this road, right along this path. Many people are going to fall away, but higher never does. He is so solid. And I think of that tree with the roots so deep, and those roots growing is the idea of “obtaining my word.” And I want to be that J.B., John, I want to be that. I want to be the guy who can withstand it, withstand it all. But I’ve got to have this private, these private victories, but I, how . . . how did you do it, John? I mean, look at you, John. You can rattle off these, these scriptures, and these references. You obviously own it. How did you, how what’re the private victories you put in to own it?

John Bytheway: (35:40) I told my kids this, that there was a part of me on my mission that I feel like woke up. There was a part of me that got excited about it. And I think that that can be an object of prayer for people, “Help me to crave this. Help me to be excited about this and to feel what Hyrum felt that ‘enlighten your mind and filled you with joy.’ ” So sometimes, when I study, I’m preparing for a class, and I feel like I get the personal benefit, and I also get to teach it. And it’s kind of like, “That’s not fair.” There’s a lot of people who don’t have this for their honorable occupation. And, but I think there’s never been a time on the history of the planet when it’s been easier. When you can tell your phone, “Read me a talk this morning,” or “I want to hear a conference talk today.” And I’ll even put it at a time and a half so that I can listen to it a little bit faster. And so I, I think maybe that’s one of those things where we actually ask the Lord to help us with our desires–to desire, to learn more, and to obtain and to retain.

Hank Smith: (36:49) Well, obtain and retain. I like that retain.

John Bytheway (36:53) Treasures just right there on our phones. Commentaries, lessons, talks everything right at our fingertips. The obtaining it has never been easier. Retaining it, that’s different.

Hank Smith: (37:04) J.B., how did you “Obtain my word?” And again, I don’t want anybody listening going, “Oh man, I’m so far behind.” I don’t even-

John Bytheway: (37:12) -Yeah, so we don’t want to induce a guilt trip to anybody here.

Hank Smith: (37:15) And we do all have the benefit of being able to teach this for our employment. How did you, you know, come to “obtain the word” because J.B., I would describe you as Hyrum. “The power of God under the convincing of men.” You have that, and many other people do. They have the “Power of God unto the convincing of men,” but that only comes from obtaining. I wrote a quote in my scriptures here a long time ago, President Harold B. Lee. “You cannot light a fire in another soul unless it is burning in your own soul.” And that’s for me as a parent. If I want the fire of the gospel to burn in my children’s soul, it must first be burning in my soul.

Dr. J.B. Haws: I’m moved. I’m really moved by what you both are saying. I thought just popped into my head that-

Hank Smith: -that enlightened your mind?

Dr. J.B. Haws: Well, we’ll see, we’ll see if this if this wasn’t an enlightening moment, but this is the president Hinckley quote. This is a rough paraphrase, but at least a couple of the words that just always stood out to me. He was encouraging a daily scripture study. And, and I think there’s something about just frequency and consistency. And then he said, you know, “I encourage, you strongly encourage you to, to make scriptures a daily part of your life.” And then he said, this line, “What might start out as tedious will grow into a love affair with the word of God.” And I love President Hinckley–just how real he is about everything. It’s his recognition that we might be at the tedious stage. And so, if I’m at the tedious stage, keep going. Keep going. If this is just a matter of, of me still having to say, You know, I’ve got to set the alarm on my phone to remind myself to read the scripture. So I . . . I’m getting this daily habit. To trust that it’s going to turn into a love affair with the word of God. And, and I think what I love what John said about praying for these desires. I mean, this is this to me, is that Alma 32 experience, you know, try the experiment. Don’t neglect the seed. Just keep watering it. Keep feeding it. Keep fertilizing it and see what happens. And naturally, almost imperceptibly, it’s going to grow into something that’s going to “Spring forth with the fruit of eternal life.” And it will become a love affair. And so if I’m at the tedious stage, just keep going, just keep going.

John Bytheway: We had a lady in our testimony meeting a few weeks ago who said: “that it is the nature of my job to listen to the news” while she works on her laptop. And the news can be depressing. And she started to be affected by things that were going on. And one day, she was kind of praying without ceasing to the Lord, “I feel rotten, you know?” And, and she felt that the Lord whispered to her, “Okay. You know, what all of them think are, are you ready to listen to what I think?” And she said, “I started putting on conference talks during the time I was on my laptop.” And she testified to the whole congregation via Zoom (and some of us were there). What a difference it had made in her life to surround herself with that. And I mean, I was taking notes. I thought, “Yeah, I, the, the Lord saying, ‘Well, you’ve heard all of that now, but here’s all of this right here. Maybe it’s tedious at first, but it’ll grow on you. It’ll grow in you. And it’ll change you.’ ” Yeah.

Hank Smith: John, isn’t that your principal, the principal of the marinade?

John Bytheway: Yeah, Dallyn Bayless, who has played Hyrum Smith many times, and Joseph Smith, too, in the Nauvoo Pageant and stuff. I was at a Timeout for Women with him, and we got on a plane to go home. And I mean, he sang Bring Him Home and just brought the house down to all these women in Rochester. And we are on the plane home. “What are you doing now? I’m teaching seminary.” And he said, “My mentor told me,” and it was just one of those moments I had to reach for a pen, “regardless of your original intention, you will eventually become what you surround yourself with.” And I was like, “I’ve got to write that.” And that, that became a whole talk. Thank you, Hank, for even remembering that, but we become what we surround ourselves with. Well, wouldn’t it be wonderful to surround ourselves to a greater degree, even if tedious at first with these beautiful, powerful, affirming words. What we’ll know will automatically and naturally begin to happen in us?

Speaker 3: (41:43) Yeah. And there’s . . . I like what you said, John. There’s no better time in the history of the world, no easier time to surround yourself. I mean, I turned my car, because I spent a lot of time at, well . . . I used to spend a lot of time in my car before the world shut down last year. But I turned it into a university–at gospel university. I can throw on a BYU Devotional or General Conference talk, or listen to the scriptures themselves or listen to a podcast like . . . like this one. And we can, we can marinate our lives in the gospel. That to me, that’s gotta be part of obtaining my word. Then, you’ll have that power of God unto the convincing-

John Bytheway 42:19 And what did the Lord tell Hyrum here? Verse 13, “Fill your soul with joy.” Yeah, that’s a fruit that J.B. mentioned.

Hank Smith: 42:28 You guys are going to laugh at this, but there was one time I was, I was out mowing the lawn, and I was listening to Sperry Symposium talks. J.B., you know what those those are. I put it in the put it in the headphones and, and I felt so uplifted. And so edified as I’m moving along, I am crying. I am just crying as I was listening to a talk by Mike McKay, who we’ve had on the podcast. And he was talking about Joseph Smith, and I was so filled with joy and just goodness that I just started crying, and it had to look so odd. Here’s me on the lawn–just loving my yard, apparently. Because I was just crying with joy over it. I think we’ve got; I hope we’ve got to the essence of this section-

Dr. J.B. Haws: (43:07) This is very thought-provoking, Hank and John. I mean, as I’m just thinking, I also think that one of the blessings we’re probably all feeling to a greater degree than we maybe even were a year ago is how important it is to have conversations about these things. And I hope all of us are seeking out conversation partners. For many of us, that’s in our own home might be with extended family. It might be with a trusted friend through social media. I just think there’s something powerful about sharing these insights. I also think that’s another way to obtain it, to own it, is to have the power of being uplifted by another person and to share something that’s hit us. I mean, this is one of the, I think the miracles of Come, Follow Me is it’s, it’s getting all of us to think more about how can we have these kinds of conversations that really, really matter. And I think we’ll have this communal lifting of each other up and feeling that we’re becoming this way as a people.

John Bytheway: (44:08) We’ll marinate in this spirit. So J.B., you were in our class with Joseph Fielding McConkie and people, and if you haven’t heard that name, they’re probably wondering, “Gee, was he a member of the Church?” One of the things that’s intriguing about so many of the ancient scriptures anyway, our names and their meanings, and sometimes a name seems to indicate a mission. As with names like Israel, “let God prevail.” Isaiah “Jehovah is salvation.” Well, I remember Joseph McConkie one day saying, “Joseph, the name Joseph means ‘he who adds.’ ” And then he said, “The name Hyrum means, ‘My brother is exalted.’ ” Wow!

Hank Smith: (44:51) Someone has told me, John, they said, “I watched the video of your podcast, and I only see your eyelids so much.” And it’s because I’m always writing. I’m always, “Oh, that’s good. I’m gonna write that down. I’m gonna write that down.” And I want to say to, to J.B., “When you said these conversations, you know, my favorite Come, Follow Me conversations have not happened during our official Come, Follow Me time.” So I would say to everybody out there that it’s okay to be–I’m mostly frustrated during our family Come, Follow Me time. It’s mostly just, “Oh, he’s breathing my air.” Can you please just . . . can we spend 20 minutes just getting everybody on the right place. But then the conversations that maybe happen on the car ride to school you know. Or the conversation that happens, you know, we’re going on a walk or something. It comes back to what we had talked about previously. And to me, that’s that’s one of the more beautiful parts of what this program has done, at least for our family. And please don’t think it’s perfect. I know there are some families listening, going, “Oh, we can’t even get it going.” Well, sometimes we can’t either. Sometimes it just doesn’t happen. I’d probably bet for the Bytheways and the Haws–it happens every night, perfectly.

John Bytheway: (46:05) We call it, “Come and sit down and be quiet.” That’s what-

Hank Smith: (46:10) Come, listen to me!

Dr. J.B. Haws: (46:11)Oh, that is right. You know, I have, I have seven fantastic sisters, younger sisters, no brothers. So I grew up in a home with seven sisters.

Hank Smith: (46:21)No wonder you are so well behaved.

Dr. J.B. Haws: (46:25)

I don’t know if they would always, always agree with you, but they’ve, they’ve shaped me, you know, try to, they’ve done their best on me. My sister, one of my sisters, just sent a text to the family just yesterday with something that struck her from Joseph Smith History. And I mean, it was just, it, it was just the boost that, that we all needed. And so little things like that. It can happen in so many ways, as you’re saying, “Hey, just, it’s just part of our lives. And we just make this. We just make us who we are.” And it’s such a blessing for me. I mean, it was, it was great for our whole family. I want, I want us all to be doing more of that.

Hank Smith: (46:54) Well, J.B., I have a question for you, and this is going to be our last question. So there’s a myth out there that the more you know about Church History, you want to stay away from it because, “Man, once you get into that rabbit hole, you’ll never come out. You’ll . . . you’ll lose your testimony.” But yet here you are. You know a lot about Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, the history of the Church. What has it done for you in your life? Why are you faithful? Why do you stay?

Dr. J.B. Haws: (47:22) One thing I appreciate about institutionally . . . that we’re seeing these signals from the Church is . . .is a fearlessness about the Church History. That there . . . that there is nothing to be afraid of, and there’s nothing to hide. And that the Church is modeling this kind of openness and transparency by all of the resources putting out there. And, and, and I think we ought to embrace that fearlessness. I mean, there is nothing we need to worry about. Because we all know that life is real, and that life is complex, and that people are complex, and that we all know that life is so multilayered, and so it’s thrilling, and it’s exciting to see that history is the same way. And in the midst of all of that, to see miraculous things happen, undeniably miraculous things happen. To see goodness and accomplishments and things that we just cannot . . . cannot do on our own. We just have to point to say that we were enabled by . . .by a power higher than our own. We see that again and again and again. And I see that again and again, and again. to quote Richard Bushman, “I believe more than ever.” I think the more we study, the more we learn about these great saints and the way God worked with them; I believe more than ever that he can work with me. And that He can do for me what he has done for them. And that is to make them more than they would be on their own.”

Hank Smith: (48:57) Oh, see, this is one of those moments where I feel: I want to do good. I want to do justly. I want to walk humbly. I feel like my mind is enlightened, and I’m filled with joy. Right, right. Out of Section 11, the Lord has, has told us what, you know, what that feels like, what that is.

John Bytheway: (49:15) I love the phrase in verse 26, about “treasure up in your heart.” And it’s not just store it; treasure it because it’s treasure. It is a treasure. It’s valuable above, beyond anything, this knowledge of God. And who we are and of all of His children and how He loves them. So thank you, it has been a great discussion.

Hank Smith: (49:39) In my career as a gospel teacher, the more I learn about Joseph Smith and his contemporaries, I always think to myself, “I can’t be more impressed. I can’t be more impressed.” And then I find myself, “I’m more impressed.” I hope that we, as a podcast, there is a fulfillment of evil being spoken about Joseph Smith. There’s no doubt about that, but we need to be the fulfillment of good being spoken about Joseph Smith. And I know J.B., you line up with Joseph.

Dr. J.B. Haws: (50:13) Most assuredly and, and happily. So, and I feel so grateful for that. I feel the Brigham Young Hallelujah. Since that to think that we have the Restoration is everything to me. What I know about the kind of being that God is, and his son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and what kind of potential and what kind of beings we are and our relationship to them. It’s the Restoration that opens that to all of us. And I feel like shouting, “Hallelujah.”

Hank Smith: (50:43) Thank you so much, J.B. and John, thank you. Of course, for being here as well. Thank you to our listeners for spending the time with us today, and a big thank you to our Producer, Steve Sorenson, and our production crew, David Perry and Lisa Spice. We will be back with another episode of followHIM. So we’ll see you again.