John Bytheway: 00:02 Welcome to part two of Dr. Tony Sweat, the books of Haggai and Zechariah.

Hank Smith: 00:09 Tony, how do you want to approach Zechariah?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:11 So, the Come, Follow Me manual has delineated chapters 1 to 3 and 7 to 14. But if you want just a big picture overview, this is right out of the Bible Dictionary, the book of Zechariah has two divisions, Zechariah 1 to 8, a series of visions sketching the future of the people of God, and Zechariah 9 to 14, prophecies about the Messiah and events preceding His “second coming”. That’s a good division. I might give another breakdown to it. Again, remember that Zechariah is a companion to Haggai. They’re preaching at the same time. As a matter of fact, Zechariah 1:1 specifically says that he’s preaching two months after Haggai starts to prophesy. So, they literally are preaching at the same time. So, take all the context we just talked about with Haggai, and put it on Zechariah as we’re studying that. But I might break it down a little bit more.

  01:10 In Zechariah 1 to 6, he’s going to have eight dreams. And, these eight dreams are somewhat bizarre, a lot of them are. But they’re symbolic dreams. They seem to be revelatory dreams. I’m going to paraphrase a little bit of how these eight dreams are organized. There’s a great little video from The Bible Project that’s only like five minutes long that summarizes the book of Zechariah and puts them in these dreams. And I think they did a great job. They say, and I agree as I read them, the dreams kind of act as parallel. So you have the first and the eighth dream that go together, the second and the seventh dream that go together, the third and the sixth dream, and the fourth and the fifth. And it almost acts as a chiasmus, because the fourth and the fifth dream are the pinnacle.

  01:59 The first and the eighth dream, they’re each about four horsemen who are bringing peace to Jerusalem, some of these promises. The second and the seventh dreams are all about the reflections on Israel’s sins and their shortcomings that are brought about, their problems and being taken captive into Babylon. And this is where you get, some of these visions are four horns that arose, and then he’s going to bring in four carpenters to help fix them. The third and the sixth vision or dream are all about the rebuilding of Jerusalem. In the third one, the person comes with like a measuring stick and shows how great Jerusalem is going to become, and the sixth dream is where you see the great flying roll, or the scroll that goes around and condemns everybody for their wickedness. And then the fourth and the fifth dream are kind of the pinnacle of this chiasmus, and they’re about Joshua, the high priest, and Zerubbabel, the governor.

  02:56 I actually think spending some time in Zechariah 3, with this vision particularly of Joshua the high priest, is meaningful, so can we go there?

Hank Smith: 03:05 Sure, absolutely. And we can link that video in our show notes. Everyone just needs to go over to followhim.co. followhim.co, and go to the show notes for this episode and you can watch the video Tony just referenced.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 03:18 Yeah. It’s really, really well done.

  03:20 So back to kind of this pinnacle. It’s the pinnacle because it’s going to be Zerubbabel and Joshua the high priest who help really guide, direct, motivate the people to rebuild the temple and Jerusalem. But I really love chapter 3 of Zechariah. So, go to verse 1.

  03:37 “And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, ‘The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that had chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?’ Now, Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, ‘Take away the filthy garments from him.’ And unto him he said, ‘Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with a change of raiment.’ And I said, ‘Let him set a fair mitre,'” or that’s a cap, a new priestly cap, “‘upon his head.’ So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.”

  04:41 And then in verse 8, “And hear now, oh Joshua high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee,” I interpret that as other priests that are part of this priestly group with him, “for they are men wondered at.” The symbolism there is so evident. You see quickly as I’m reading that why I wanted to read chapter three and this vision of Joshua. You have somebody who Satan is trying to stop and thwart. He has on filthy garments that are likely symbolic of maybe his weakness or shortcoming or sin. And then you have the Lord coming and literally giving him new clothing to cover his sins and weakness. And their temple clothing, it’s reminiscent of temple clothing. We all know, and we’ve heard many times, that the atonement, some of the root words get at to cloth or to cover, to cover our sins.

  05:41 Just beautiful metaphors there for what, not only the Lord does for us in taking away our sins and casting out the effects of the adversary in our lives, but again, wonderful temple connections, that through the temple, we can become clean. There’s references here, obviously, implications, speaking of holy things in holy ways, to becoming part of an anointed people of the Lord, who then bear and wear literal garment that covers our nakedness, that reminds us of our covenants and acts as a protection against sin and temptation, as the prophets have taught about the holy garment, which is why it’s so important. Obviously too, a reference to them being priests and people wondering at them, a different set of people. You’ve been cleansed and blessed and set apart and clothed to be people that are different, people that may even be wondered at. Just beautiful verses in there.

Hank Smith: 06:46 That really is. So you have Satan wanting to take down Joshua, and so the Lord reclothes Joshua. He takes away his filthy garments, puts him in new garments, very similar to what we would say are the clothing used in the temple. And now Joshua, what does he say? I will bring forth my servant the branch.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 07:09 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 07:09 Reminds me a little bit of the calling of Isaiah.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 07:12 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 07:13 Where he says, “I have my unclean lips,” and an angel comes and takes the uncleanliness out of his lips, and now he’s ready to serve.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 07:20 Yeah. Maybe for those who have yet to enter the temple for the endowment, or if there’s anybody listening who’s not of the Latter-day Saint faith, it’s just so important to understand that when we go to the holy temple, we are washed and anointed. We are clothed with sacred, priestly clothing and garments that remind us that we’re to be a set apart people, a holy nation, a royal people. And that purification, that clothing, that covering is all symbolic of and actuated through the atonement of Jesus Christ and Him saving us, in the same way here that Joshua is being cleansed and purified. It’s really beautiful.

Hank Smith: 08:06 The clothing itself representing the atonement covers me. Is that what you’re saying, Tony?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 08:12 Yeah, exactly.

Hank Smith: 08:14 We’re lucky to have you here, Tony, to show us this.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 08:16 Well, this is just good stuff from Zechariah. And Zechariah 3 is where the Come, Follow Me manual stops. Understand that these visions, they carry all the way through to chapter 6. And then in chapter 7 and 8 of Zechariah, this is where the manual picks back up, which is a great place for us to pick up because, if you look at verse 3, so now he’s going to quit talking about his dreams. And in chapter 7 and 8 in particular, he’s going to give some exhortations to live holy lives, to live sanctified dedicated lives. So if you look at verse 3 of Zechariah 7, “Speak unto the priests which were in the house of the Lord of hosts, and to the prophets.”

  08:59 And, let me just make a pause here again, as has been taught multiple times publicly by our church leaders today, in the latter days, the Lord is trying to create a holy nation of priests and priestesses to Him. And that’s what the temple is doing. So I think there’s some direct application to us here as Latter-day Saints who are trying to live priestly, sanctified, holy set apart lives. So jump to verse 9 now. “Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, ‘Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassion every man to his brother, and oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor. And let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.'” This sounds very similar to some of the covenants that we make in the holy temple.

Hank Smith: 09:54 Absolutely.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 09:55 Covenants to live holy lives, to consecrate, to help others, to be obedient, to be chaste, to be pure, to be compassionate.

Hank Smith: 10:04 Watch the way we speak.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 10:06 Watch the way we speak about others. Just really, really great things there.

  10:11 And then if you go to chapter 8 verse 3, “I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.” Again, this is the promise of the temple, going all the way back to Moses. The glory of the Lord will be there. His presence will be there. A cloud will be over the tabernacle. And now He’s giving that same promise like, “I’m going to be with you in Jerusalem, in this temple, and you need to be prepared.” Then He says in verse 8, He’s talking about those who have been scattered and taken away. Verse 8, “I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem, and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.”

  10:58 And then He’s going to give some more directions of laws to live. Look at verse 16. “These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbor; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates.” Verse 17, “Let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbor.” He’s reiterating these. “‘Let no false oath, for all these are things that I hate,’ saith the Lord.” He even goes on to say in verse 19, and he talks about fasting in the fourth month and the fifth month. So, these calls to repeatedly fast.

  11:37 And then in verse 21, he tells them to, “Pray to the Lord and seek the Lord of hosts.” So you’re seeing again a pattern. When I was on here with you guys before and I did section 88, and I said that, in section 88, you see the Lord begin to lay out a pattern, a holy way to live, to help us become endowed with His power. And in section 88, the Lord says things like, be consecrated, be chaste, be obedient. Don’t be idle. Don’t speak evil. Don’t find faults. He teaches them to pray. He teaches them to fast, and they do that in the Kirtland Temple. That’s how they come into it. They call holy meetings. They get rid of their light mindedness. They pray to the Lord. They come fasting. They make covenants that they’re going to live in sacred ways. And then the Lord promises them this Pentecostal outpouring of His spirit and His power.

Hank Smith: 12:34 Tony, I remember that, because you were saying that He was laying the foundation for them to then have the presentation of the endowment later, later. But it was the beginning. So you’re saying the same thing is happening here, or something similar?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 12:47 All I’m seeing is echoes is what I’m saying. It’s similar echoes of, live these holy laws, execute judgment, don’t speak evil, pray, care for your neighbor, have compassion, fast. It’s just echoes of the same idea of what a covenant people who strive to follow Jesus do.

Hank Smith: 13:07 We talked about Zechariah being at the same time as Haggai, so they’re in the midst of, let’s build the temple.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 13:14 Yeah. This is the exact same context as Haggai. This is them trying to rebuild the temple, reestablish themselves in Jerusalem.

Hank Smith: 13:21 So it’s almost as if Haggai is build the temple, and Zechariah is build the people.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 13:27 Yeah. You could think of it that way.

Hank Smith: 13:29 All right. Where do you want to go next?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 13:32 After kind of this call to holiness in chapter 7 to 8. The rest of 9 to 14, Zechariah is really going to try to prepare the people to receive the Messiah, and he’s going to make a lot of Messianic prophecies. And this is where we are going to see a lot of these prophecies of Zechariah that end up being cited in the New Testament by the Gospel writers, because Zechariah is going to prophesy so clearly of the coming of the Messiah. And he seems to be speaking to prepare the people for both His first coming and His ultimate second coming. That Come, Follow Me manual has a great little chart, I recommend you look at that, where they have these prophecies, and then their linked fulfillment or their linked reference in other scriptures. So I thought it would be good just to kind of look at those and talk about those.

  14:26 So the first one they reference is Zechariah 9:9-11, and this is where Zechariah is going to give the prophecy about riding in on the donkey. “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.” We see this fulfillment when Jesus rides triumphant into Jerusalem that’s talked about in Matthew chapter 21. And Matthew makes a direct allusion to this Zechariah prophecy.

Hank Smith: 15:06 We’ll talk about this more next year, but Matthew is our guy to use the Old Testament to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. He knows his Old Testament very well. He knows his Hebrew Bible. And in this one, he sees an absolute fulfillment, with the Savior riding into Jerusalem in that triumphal entry. He sees that and then directly quotes Zechariah.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 15:29 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 15:30 I’ve always wondered about that, just a quick question. If they received him so triumphantly because they were expecting more of a political Messiah, than one to save them from sin and death, what do you think about that?

Hank Smith: 15:43 Oh, I think so.

John Bytheway: 15:44 I’ve always wondered what Jesus was thinking when they’re all celebrating and he’s like, “Yeah, well, you’re misunderstanding. I’m not that kind of Messiah. I’m not the one who’s going to throw off the Romans.” But I’ve always just wondered, because yeah, “Thank you for the welcome, but when you find out I’ve actually come to deliver you from tougher enemies called sin and death, then some of you may not feel the same, but-“

Hank Smith: 16:04 What’s fascinating is, in Zechariah, just a couple of verses later, it talks about the blood of the covenant.

John Bytheway: 16:10 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 16:10 Where maybe they missed that part of it. Sorry, Tony, what were you going to say?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 16:15 I was just going to say, John, I think you’re right on. I mean, one writer has said that Jesus seems to have a different set of priorities than we sometimes like. And, when Jesus rides triumphant into Jerusalem, I think there are hints and indications they wanted freedom from political oppression. They wanted their automatic breadmaker. They wanted their body healer, and they weren’t necessarily focusing in on their souls being healed. And ironically, the first thing Jesus does after He rides in triumphant is He cleanses the temple. He doesn’t cleanse the Romans, He cleanses the temple. That just goes to show that, even sometimes in our own lives, we rightly so, we want the Garden of Eden, and we want these different challenges to be taken out of our lives, our temporal lives, and Jesus is here to say, “I’m here to heal your soul. I’m here to redeem you from sin.” And, it won’t be until the millennium that we’re completely redeemed from the temporal aspects of the fall. And we need to make sure we don’t get those out of whack and lose our faith in the work of the Messiah either.

Hank Smith: 17:20 We want the Garden of Eden and we get the Garden of Gethsemane, it sounds like.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 17:24 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 17:25 So you think that people generally, when Jesus came riding in, probably had this Zechariah 9:9 in mind, at least some of them did?

Hank Smith: 17:34 Yeah. Well, at least, they have the Psalms in mind too, because they sing the Psalms of the messiahship. I’ve heard it said before that they wanted to bring Jesus in after the triumphal entry and crown Him king. They didn’t realize which crown He was going to get. He is going to be crowned, and He is going to be king, but it’s just going to look different than what they thought.

John Bytheway: 17:55 And I love what you said Tony, He didn’t go to the Antonia Fortress, He went to the temple. That’s a really good point.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 18:03 That’s right. Which shows His priorities for us.

  18:06 Well, the next prophecy they mention is in Zechariah 11:12-13, again, Zechariah is speaking about the future Messiah. And, in chapter 11, verse 12 to 13, verse 12, “I said unto them, ‘If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear.’ So they weighed for my price 30 pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, ‘Cast it unto the potter’: a goodly price that I was priced at of them. And I took the 30 pieces of silver and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.” Obviously, there could be multiple layers of interpretation of that particular prophecy, but it’s difficult to not see Judas betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, and then those 30 pieces of silver after his regret being cast into what’s considered, isn’t it called potters field? If I’m remembering right. So, I know those are different potters, or I assume so, but you see a direct connection there as well.

John Bytheway: 19:05 I’m looking here in the Old Testament Study Guide. Tom Valletta was the general editor here. He actually taught seminary at Highland Seminary when I was there. And, Richard Draper wrote an essay called The Book of Zechariah. He said, “In chapter 11, Zechariah presented the allegory of the good shepherd who tries to save the sheep, but because of opposition, he cannot do it. Finally, he quits in anger, breaks his two staffs and demands his wages. He has paid the sum of 30 pieces of silver. These he throws down before the potter inside the Lord’s house, in testimony before Jehovah of his wrongs and rejection. This allegory reflects the rejection of the true shepherd who was sold for 30 pieces of silver, and delivered over to false brethren. The betrayer’s ransom later bought a potter’s field. See Matthew 27:7-10.”

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 19:56 Yep. Oh, that’s great. It’s hard to miss that.

  20:00 If we want to jump over to Zechariah 12:10, there is another direct. Again, Zechariah continues to speak about a people preparing for the Messiah. He says in verse 10, “I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” And then, the manual references to the Gospel of John chapter 19 verse 37, and also Revelation chapter 1 verse 7. Hard to miss that connection there as well.

  20:50 And it kind of ties into the next one in Zechariah chapter 13 verses 6 to 7, “And one shall say to him, ‘What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Then he shall answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'” And, John, you mentioned in the introduction when we were starting this episode, Doctrine & Covenants section 45, verses 47 to 53 will directly reference those and give a modern day interpretation of them. I’ll read that section 45, and this is speaking of prior to the second coming. So obviously, the piercing of Jesus, you see that metaphor of the piercing of Christ for His crucifixion that we just read in Zechariah chapter 12, and then, in Zechariah 13, them asking, “What are these wounds?” And section 45 of the Doctrine & Covenants, the Lord puts those together, speaking of the second coming, verse 48, “And then shall the Lord set his foot upon this mount,” which is the Mount of Olives, “and it shall cleave in twain, and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro, and the heavens also shall shake.” There’s a little Haggai reference.

  22:03 “And the Lord shall utter His voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly. And calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed; and they that have watched for iniquity shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.” Now, here’s the direct Zechariah connection. “And then shall the Jews look upon me and say, ‘What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet?’ Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them, ‘These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.’ And then shall they weep because of their iniquities and lament because they persecuted their king.” So, speaking of the eventual recognition and redemption of the house of Judah, as well there at the second coming.

John Bytheway: 23:00 The fact that the Savior himself would use that in that revelation, and that He would add some extra detail, “What are those wounds in thine hands and in thy feet?”, and that Zechariah would say, “They’ll look upon me whom they have pierced his hands and feet, also his side.” It reminds me, going back to Isaiah, when we did Isaiah 49, where it says, “They may forget, but I will not forget thee. I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands.” The footnote there is to Zechariah 13:6. I always like to show my students, because it’s such a visual way of thinking of it. The sign language for Jesus, have you seen it before, the American Sign Language for Jesus? It’s touching the palm of the hands, one after the other. And if you do Jesus Christ, you’d make kind of a letter C and go down. But, that visual of his hands being pierced with “I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands” is just, that’s really powerful to me from Isaiah.

  24:00 And I know there was custom of tattooing things on hands, but the fact that that footnote is there tells us, yeah, there could be another level there of those wounds in his hands, which, another fascinating topic that my students have brought up, “Hey, I thought when we’re resurrected, those wounds were all healed. Why does Jesus still have wounds?” And Elder Holland has addressed this and so forth, but I think it’s to fulfill this prophecy here in Zechariah 13 and in section 45, so that they’ll know who he is, so that when he went to the Nephites, they could know who he was and he could have them come up one by one and be witnesses of that. What do you guys think about that?

Hank Smith: 24:41 Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 24:42 Well, and the Nephites, when they see him and see the wounds and are able to interact with him, they say that they know that this is the Messiah. And that seems to be the prophecy as well, that in the latter days, these wonderful Jews who are awaiting the Messiah, they’ll recognize him when he returns.

Hank Smith: 25:01 I like the connection between these two sections. The first half of Zechariah is preparing a people for the Messiah. I remember, last year, talking about the second coming and building Zion, and that in order for the king to come, there must be a kingdom for him to come to and a people for him to come to. So I like the connection you’ve made. These aren’t two distinct, just here’s Zechariah saying be a covenant people, here’s Zechariah talking about the Messiah. These two are connected.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 25:31 They are. That’s a good connection you made here. I’m not sure I made that overtly, but I like how you just made that explicit. Hank, that’s a good insight.

  25:40 And maybe this would be a good time to tie in, even though it’s not a direct Messianic prophecy, this connection between preparing for the Messiah and having a people prepared to receive him, a king for the kingdom. Go to Zechariah chapter 14, the last one. And in Zechariah 14, there’s some great things in here. But look at verse, famous one in verse 20, “In that day shall there be unto the bells of the horses, holiness unto the Lord, and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord.” Obviously, that phrase, when we go to the temple, back to a place for a people and a kingdom for a king, when we go to the holy temple, often the temples will have written holiness to the Lord, the house of the Lord. And they’re taking that… That’s referenced earlier in the Old Testament. But again, that phrase, that it will be such a holy place, and people that, even on the bells of the horses will be written holiness to the Lord.

  26:57 I don’t know how that applies today. I don’t know what the rims on your car should look like or the bumper stickers. This phrase in Zechariah, Joseph Smith will reference when he is trying to establish Zion and prepare the new Jerusalem to receive Jesus. Listen to what Joseph says, “In speaking of the gathering, we mean to be understood according to scripture, the gathering of the elect of the Lord, out of every nation on earth, and bringing them to the place of the Lord of hosts, where the city of righteousness shall be built, and where the people shall be of one heart and of one mind when the Savior comes. Yea, where the people shall walk with God like Enoch and be free from sin, the word of the Lord is precious. And when we read that the veil spread over all nations will be destroyed, and the pure in heart see God, and live with him a thousand years on earth. We want all honest men should have a chance to gather and build up a city of righteousness, where even upon the bells of the horses shall be written holiness to the Lord.”

  28:09 So, yeah, Hank, that idea, it’s undoubted to see this connection of a people who are not only preparing a place for the Savior, but they’re preparing themselves, that Zion can only be built on principles of righteousness, and the purpose of Zion is to gather people around the temple, so they can know the Lord, they can know his ways, they can follow him, and be a people prepared to receive him. That’s what our prophets today are calling us to do. We are the modern-day people of Haggai and Zechariah. And instead of Haggai and Zechariah, like I said, we have President Nelson and President Oaks and President Eyring, and the Lord’s servants calling upon us to center our lives in Jesus. Be a covenant people. Go to the temple. Commit to him. Find peace and rest. Sanctify ourselves. Come unto him. Love and serve others, and be the people who are prepared to receive him. I just can’t help but see a repeat of history and direct application today for us.

John Bytheway: 29:18 Ever since we talked about the Exodus, and I saw some of the beautiful visuals of the temple being in the center of them that they all camped around, I just thought it was the coolest visual of God wants to be at the center of your life, and wants to be with you. And you’ll take that with you as you travel that God will always be with you, that that’s what he wants. And, to that list you just gave of everything that we’ve been asked, I love that President Nelson has asked us to learn to hear Him. The youth, all of us need to learn to hear Him. And, we can see that in the new For The Strength Of Youth pamphlet is so much more of an effort to, don’t look for a list in here of do’s and don’ts, but you get on your knees based on these principles, and hear Him to figure out how to govern your life and to live your life. And, it’s putting a lot on all of us.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 30:16 But, maybe connecting Haggai back too. I just love where the Lord says, “I’ll be with you. I’ll strengthen you. I’ll help you. Don’t have fear. The Lord is going to accomplish his work.” To me, Haggai and Zechariah, again, they’re hopeful books. They’re hopeful that the Lord will guide us, be with us, direct us, and we can be a people prepared to receive Him as a whole.

John Bytheway: 30:43 We talked in the beginning about taking it wrong, taking it like a guilt trip that we might, but instead, taking it as, it’s time to realign ourselves, to get our bearings again.

Hank Smith: 30:54 Tony, John, I wanted to ask you something. You’re both incredible fathers. I was looking back at these verses that Tony showed us in Zechariah 7 and Zechariah 8. Look at Zechariah 7 verses 9 and 10. “The Lord is asking his people to execute true judgment, to show mercy and compassion. Every man to his brother. Don’t oppress the widow, the fatherless, the stranger, the poor. Don’t imagine evil against your brother and his heart.” And then over there in verse 8, “Speak ye every man the truth. Execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates.” I’m taking that to mean in your home. “Don’t imagine evil in your heart against his neighbor.” There it is again. “Love no false oath.” To me, these are all wonderful principles to live by.

  31:40 I’m wondering how you teach your children to do these things, to be honest. How do you teach your children to show mercy and compassion on other people, and to not imagine evil in their heart against anyone? I find that that’s a difficult thing to do for most parents. I think there’s parents listening saying, “Yeah, how do I do that? I want to do that, but I just don’t know exactly how.” What are your thoughts? I know you’re not perfect parents, but you are pretty great parents. What do you both think?

John Bytheway: 32:05 I find myself repenting to my kids a lot. And, you’ve probably heard the phrase, I can’t hear what you say because what you are shouts so loudly in my ears. And those kind of messages for kids are so much stronger when we’re trying to live what we’re talking about.

Hank Smith: 32:24 Yeah. What do you mean by that, John, repenting to your kids? What do you mean by that? I love that phrase.

John Bytheway: 32:28 “Hey, I’m sorry I blew up about that mess in the kitchen. You guys, I shouldn’t have said that the way I did.” And, the very things we’re talking about, loving our neighbor and not judging harshly, and letting them know I got to realign my life all the time too. And I also thought about… Hank, you kind of opened up my understanding to how great gems there are in the Bible Dictionary. You were telling me about some of them, and it’s a fun place just to read. But one of them talks about the temple, and it says, only the home can compare to the temple in sacredness. And the thing that was interesting about that, it doesn’t say only the chapel or the meeting house, it says the home. And trying to make our home like a temple, where we speak to each other the way we speak to each other.

  33:18 And that’s a tall order. I’m not good at that. But, it helps me to think about what choices do we make with what we watch or listen to. But I think going back to the other part, I just have to let my children know I’m trying to live the Gospel too, and sometimes, I’m messing up. And maybe that gives them permission to also know that we’re all going to stumble and make mistakes, but let’s get up and keep trying, and let’s kneel down for family prayer at night and forgive each other and try to do better tomorrow.

Hank Smith: 33:50 Yeah, I think we can all be a little more careful about the way we talk about other people around our children, when the Lord says, don’t imagine evil against your brother.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 34:02 Shew mercy and compassion.

John Bytheway: 34:04 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 34:05 We can be careful, especially the way we talk about our neighbors, the way we talk about our bishop. We’re teaching in those moments.

John Bytheway: 34:12 And I love Elder Holland saying, “Well, so be kind, and be grateful that the Lord is kind.” It’s a happier way to live, and we treat each other that way and let our children see us do that. Hopefully that helps.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 34:24 Oh, I think both of you are wiser than I am. And you said some excellent things. I love what you have both said, because it reminds me, there’s a saying attributed to the Buddha, where it says, “He who sees me sees the teaching,” and that puts a lot of pressure on parents. But obviously, back to parenting, it’s such a challenge. But I do think it’s important to maybe push back against… We have to recognize all part of certain cultural influences and factors and traditions, and it’s good to push back against some things like, “Just be your kids’ friends. They just need you to be friends.” As a parent, I fundamentally reject that.

  35:09 My kids can get friends anywhere. They can’t get a mom and a dad anywhere. And, the role of a mom and a dad isn’t just to be a friend. Of course, we need to have loving, deep relationships, but that’s different than just being a friend, a buddy. A parent is a leader. And a leader often is, number one, showing an example and, number two, not letting you… Sometimes I’ll hear kids say, “Oh, I love these friends because they just let me. They don’t ever give me any grief about…” And I often say, “Well, they’re not very good friends,” because your best friends and the best parents and the best leaders are ones who help elevate us to become who we should be and to live ways that we should.

John Bytheway: 35:54 Yeah. These prophets are inviting us to higher ground. They’re not saying, “You’re great just the way you are today.” They’re inviting us to examine ourselves, consider our ways, and do a little better.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 36:05 They’re making things like, what’s going on in your heart? Again, back to Haggai and Zechariah, what’s going on in your heart? Quit chasing these bags with holes. Quit trying to find food and drink and things that never fill. And if we’re not careful as modern-day parents, we can be as guilty of that as anything, where we compliment and push our kids in a million directions, trying to have self-fulfillment, when the question we should be complimenting and talking and analyzing like, “Hey, I am more proud of your integrity or your sportsmanship, than the fact that you’re a great athlete.”

John Bytheway: 36:44 Or that you won the election or something. Yeah.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 36:47 Yeah, exactly. I love that… “I just want to compliment you for how kind you are. I just want to tell you I love you and thank you for serving someone else.” I think those kinds of things, back to helping them shew mercy and not speak poorly of others and to sanctify their hearts, those are often the discussions and the compliments that stick with kids maybe a little bit more, and have more effect on them than trying to have them become the best. But, let’s make sure we’re not, as parents, doing what Haggai told us not to do, and quit chasing the things with our kids that don’t really satisfy.

Hank Smith: 37:25 I remember once, my son, he’s going to hear this and think, “I am pretty great,” and he is, but once when he was just young, he saw that his older sister was having a really hard day. Something had happened at school with some friends, and then a coach, and just had one of those days where kind of the world came crashing down. I saw him jump on his bike and he rode the mile or mile and a half down to the gas station, bought a couple of treats for her and slipped them under her door with a note that said, “Just thinking of you today. I know you had a hard day.” And here he is, just a 12- or 13-year-old, and I think those are the moments, Tony, that we say, that’s what we’re looking for, my friend.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 38:08 I love that.

Hank Smith: 38:09 Instead of the moments where maybe he wins a swim tournament, you think, “Yeah, first place. That’s what we’re after.” No, we’re after mercy and compassion. That’s what we’re all about as a family. And, for all those people listening who are like, “Oh man, that doesn’t sound like my house,” don’t worry, that’s a rare occasion in my house. He insulted her the next day, just like every brother.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 38:32 And being real. I mean, in the Sweat household, we have seven children now. Three of them are now young adults and out of the house. But of the four who remain, it is not uncommon to hear just siblings just railing on each other, being so harsh with each other. They’re great kids, don’t get me wrong. They’re great kids. But, the other day, we did sit down. We were doing our family home evening together, and we were reviewing some of the stuff in the new Strength Of Youth pamphlet. And we were like, “What are some ways that we can be better at?” And it had to do with language and how we talk about it. And they were talking about stuff at school and with their friends, and I said, “How about we talk about not telling each other that we’re all a bunch of idiots, and that we’re as dumb as rocks. Maybe we can start there.”

Hank Smith: 39:19 Start here at the house.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 39:21 “Start right here in the home. How about we practice?” And they’re like, “That’s a good idea, Dad.”

Hank Smith: 39:25 “Dad, I never thought of that. You’re brilliant.”

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 39:27 Never thought about that. These are real. Let’s not have any listeners have any false ideas that things are perfect.

Hank Smith: 39:35 We’re trying just like everybody else. But the trying is important. When your children do speak evil of other people, especially those of their own family, that mom and dad say something, so that it’s time to step up. I might even get this in vinyl. Zechariah 7:9, “Show mercy and compassion every man to his brother.”

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 39:57 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 39:58 Use brother literally there in the family.

Hank Smith: 40:01 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 40:03 Hank, we had, almost 10 years ago now, a house fire. And, it was interesting how that trial made our family closer, because we knew we had each other when we couldn’t even stay in our house. And sometimes, those trials can help us see, my brother’s here, my sister’s here, my wife’s… I just think that’s sometimes another beauty for ashes thing. The Lord can turn something that’s hard into… No matter what happens to me at school, I can come home and I’ve got my brothers and sisters. If we can help them to look at each other that way. I’ve got the support of my brothers and sisters. Easier said than done, that’s what we’re going for though. Loving our neighbors should start at home and go out, not the other way around.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 40:50 Well, as you’re saying that, it makes me think of the young men’s theme that says that, “I will serve others beginning in my own home.”

John Bytheway: 40:58 Beginning. They’re not ending there.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 41:00 I love that concept, and we’ve talked about that a number of times, that the home is where we practice and try to learn to implement these holy ways of living, and it’s because it’s the best laboratory to figure them out together.

Hank Smith: 41:14 Tony, Dr. Sweat, it has been just a treat to have you with us today. And we would encourage all of our listeners to go listen to the other episodes. If you’ve liked this episode with Tony, go back to last year. We had him here three times. It was phenomenal each time. In fact, he was our very first guest.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 41:33 I did. I got to be the first one.

Hank Smith: 41:35 On followHIM. Go back and listen to that opening. You’ll say, “Wow, these guys have gotten a lot better.”

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 41:41 That was my claim to fame. I tell my kids, that’s where I peaked. Everything’s downhill.

Hank Smith: 41:45 The first guest to followHIM.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 41:47 First guest to followHIM.

Hank Smith: 41:48 We had no idea what we were doing then. Tony, we’ve had you, bear your testimony and teach us in all those episodes last year. So I’m thinking, with this episode, what do you want our listeners to come away with this learning? What do you feel like would be a good final message for them?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 42:03 Yeah. That’s a great question. We kind of kicked off this episode talking about how, at least in my view of it, Haggai and Zechariah are hopeful books, because there’s a lot of promises of the Lord. There’s a lot of future things to look forward to. I would maybe just end there. To every one of these great people out there who are listening, no matter where you’re coming from, there’s always reasons to have hope because of the Savior. His promises are sure. As the Book of Mormon repeatedly emphasizes, that’s what he seems to be saying here in Haggai and Zechariah to me. These promises will find fulfillment. And, when President Nelson recently, I’m just going to paraphrase him, I can’t remember the exact phrase, but he basically said, the greatest events that have ever happened are yet to come. That is awesome. You contemplate all the marvelous works of God, in the past that we study, as we look at the Old Testament, the Book of Mormon, and even in church history. And the greatest things are yet to come.

  43:15 As we prepare ourselves to receive the Messiah for his second coming, like these people were trying to prepare themselves for his first coming, I just hope that nobody out there loses hope. I sometimes, in my position as a religion teacher, I see people who sometimes get a little frustrated or they find flaws and what they perceive to be weaknesses or missteps or fallen aspects of the restoration, answers we don’t know, things that are unresolved. And sometimes, I just want to say to them, have hope. The arc of the world is bending toward restoration. Just like how Jerusalem and the temple was restored here, the world is going to be restored. Jesus will overcome all the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve. He is a complete redeemer, from sin and death, but injustice also, unfairness, ignorance, pain, suffering. All the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve of this telestial mortal sphere will be conquered.

  44:24 Now, the time is not yet. And the time won’t even be when Jesus returns. We’re going to have a thousand years of him ruling and reigning, for him to make all things right. And then, at the end of his millennial thousand-year period, then he will present this kingdom to the Father, perfected, purified, and ready to receive the presence of God the Father. Then it will become a celestial kingdom. So don’t lose faith right now, simply because we’re currently… Excuse me. Simply because we’re currently in a telestial kingdom. Think if the people of Haggai had lost their animus. Think if they had lost their hope, simply because they couldn’t see it yet, and things were difficult and unknown and challenging. That’s part of having faith and of continuing in the ongoing restoration is having hope that Jesus will fulfill these promises.

  45:38 And as you can see, I get emotional all the time. I apologize for that. It’s the closest thing that I’ll be to likening myself to President Eyring is, I excuse myself because he gets emotional, so can I sometimes. But, it’s just because it’s so deep in my soul that I have hope and faith and charity, those great gifts. God has given those to me of the restoration that he will work his work. He is able to do his work. But let’s not become impatient. Let’s not lose that hope, as we’re letting him work his work of restoration, as we keep having hope. Maybe that would be my just call to anybody out there who is on that verge right now. Jesus’s promises are sure, and one day we’ll see the fulfillment of all that he has promised, just like he promised these great people of the past.

Hank Smith: 46:32 Beautiful. We want to thank you for being here with us. We love having you on followHIM. Thank you, Dr. Sweat.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 46:41 I love being with you, my dear friends. I love you both. Thanks for all you do.

John Bytheway: 46:45 Thank you.

Hank Smith: 46:46 We want to thank Dr. Anthony Sweat for being with us today. What a treat. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. We hope all of you will join us next week. We have another episode coming up of followHIM.

  47:04 We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.