Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together, we follow Him.

Hank Smith: 00:00:20 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith and I am your host. I am here with a co-host, I will describe as a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress and a refuge from the storm. John, when I read Isaiah 25:4, I thought of you. Now, you’re going to say, “Oh, that’s not me.” But John, think of how many people who have been driving with their kids, they got their kids stuck in the car on the freeway and they throw in a John Bytheway talk. And it becomes a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy, and a refuge from the storm. So John, take it as a compliment. I don’t know if Isaiah specifically was talking about you, but I’m going to interpret that scripture.

John Bytheway: 00:01:08 I thought you were going to say they throw in a John Bytheway tape, because that’s how far back we’re going now.

Hank Smith: 00:01:16 Yes, the eight track.

John Bytheway: 00:01:17 Yeah, the eight track. I can’t possibly live up to these adjectives, but for those who have cassette players in their cars.

Hank Smith: 00:01:26 Yep. I do my own talks on CD, John and my kids like yours.

John Bytheway: 00:01:32 And my kids like yours more than mine. We listen to yours. So we need a third party to say good things to our kids.

Hank Smith: 00:01:40 That’s how it works. We are back in Isaiah this week. We had a great first week in Isaiah and we’ve got a couple more to go. I think Isaiah is opening up to us and our listeners, John. We have someone gifted with this book. Tell everybody who’s joining us.

John Bytheway: 00:01:57 Yeah, I think that our listeners will be excited that we have Dr. Kerry Muhlestein back again. I’ve had half a dozen people come into me about previous podcasts that we did with Kerry. So we’re really excited to have him back. He received his bachelors from BYU in psychology with Hebrew minor. As an undergraduate, he spent time at the BYU Jerusalem center for near Eastern studies in the intensive Hebrew program, received an MA in ancient near Eastern studies from BYU and a PhD from UCLA in Egyptology where in his final year he was named the UCLA affiliates graduate student of the year.

Hank Smith: 00:02:35 Wow.

John Bytheway: 00:02:35 He’s the director of the BYU Egypt Excavation Project. And in association with this works on understanding the pyramid excavated there as well as their Greco Roman culture represented at the site in the advent of Christianity in Egypt. And for today, I wanted to mention his book, Learning to Love Isaiah: A Guide and Commentary has been helpful to so many. I just love the title, Learning to Love Isaiah. And that’s why we’re here today. And Kerry, we’re really happy to have you back. Thanks for coming again.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:03:07 Well, thanks for having me back. I’m so grateful. I do have to say this is a very true story that when we really want our kids to get a gospel principle, I know they won’t listen to me, but the two people, they will listen to, the two people they’re fans of are Hank and John. That’s the ones that we use. We can get them to listen to. And I’ll tell you another story. My daughter, as a freshman took Hank’s Book of Mormon class. And one day someone was asking her, “Well, why don’t you take your dad’s religion class?” And she said, “Well, unlike my dad, Hank Smith actually is funny.” That’s just funny. So you are on the eight track in our car.

Hank Smith: 00:03:44 Hey, I’ll take it. I’ll take it. My own daughter starts at BYU this fall and I’m interested to see the religion classes she chooses to take. And I doubt it’ll be mine.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:04:00 You’re never a prophet in your own family. Yep.

Hank Smith: 00:04:05 Hey Kerry, we want to give all the time to Isaiah today. We’re in our second section. I think there’s five lessons in the Come, Follow Me manual about Isaiah. And this is our second one. Starts around Isaiah 13, but I’m sure you’re going to want to do a little bit of background, help our listeners approach the book of Isaiah in a way that now they can go in and it doesn’t read like, “I don’t understand a word that he’s saying. He might as well be writing in a different language.” What do we need to know in order to go in and at least glean some things out of these chapters?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:04:39 That’s a great question. I love helping people understand Isaiah. It just makes me happy. I know you got some great guidance from Dr. Combs last week. He’s just so brilliant at this kind of thing. So I don’t want to repeat the same things, but I will say that one of the main keys and he did touch on this and we’ll end up touching on it today is to look for how Isaiah is fulfilled in more than one way. It’s so often we see the chapter heading that says like millennial Christ or meridian of time Christ. And that’s true, but that doesn’t mean that’s the only interpretation.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:05:09 They weren’t giving us the comprehensive commentary in those chapter headings. In almost everything there is an original context. And when we understand the original context and the way it’s fulfilled in Isaiah’s day, we can better understand how it’s fulfilled in Christ’s day or how it’s fulfilled in our day. So that would be one of the things I would suggest. I know you’ve already talked about that a bit. Maybe I have just two other suggestions, although, we’ll do three. I know there are lots more we could give. The first one is just quick and that’s just to slow down.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:05:38 When we’re going to read Isaiah, it’s not like the narrative chapters that we were reading when we were doing the stories of the Exodus or Abraham going down into Egypt or something like that. This is deep stuff. Isaiah is, I think, probably the most gifted writer in the history of the world. You’ll probably agree he’s at least in the top 10. He packed a lot of material into his words and you just have to take some time to do it right. And if you can’t get through the whole reading, I’d say it’s better to do five chapters well than 10 chapters poorly.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:06:07 So slow down and take some time and look for symbols. Isaiah is a master at painting pictures with his words. So he has images he wants us to feel. I think often that’s what we should do is ask what is Isaiah intending for me to feel here? But he usually conveys those images by symbols. So slow down. When you find a symbol, when you find him talking about, say planting, and he says, “I plant this kind of seed this way and this kind this way,” learn about the seeds. You can just get online.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:06:37 I mean, you could use a commentary, but you can also just get online. And so when you learn the literal symbol, then you’re better prepared to ask yourself, “Well, how would they have perceived this in Isaiah’s day? How might that apply in my day?” But too often, we skip that first part about the literal symbol.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:06:52 So I think that’s an important strategy. I’ll give you one last one and then we can find out what strategies have worked for you guys. But I would say another real key is to make sure you understand and look for the Abrahamic covenant. Isaiah writes about the Abrahamic covenant, probably more than anything else. And in fact, often when he is talking about Christ, he’s talking about how Christ fulfills the covenant.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:07:15 Christ makes it possible for us to be redeemed, which is a promise in the covenant. So if you know the promises of the covenant that you’ll have a land or that you’ll be protected, or that you’ll be blessed, or that you’ll have a righteous ruler, then you can see when he says that these are being fulfilled or when he says the opposite of them are happening. So if he says that all of your people have been killed in war, one of the things he’s saying is you’ve broken the covenant, so you’re not getting the blessings of the covenant. But if he says, “No, now you have so many children that there’s not room in your tent,” so you need to make your tent bigger. You need to then make your cords longer and strengthen your stakes, what he’s saying is, “Well, yeah, you’ve got this posterity that was a promise of the covenant.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:07:53 So really what he’s saying is you’re getting all of the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant. And when you key into that covenant, you’ll find it is everywhere in Isaiah and you understand Isaiah much better when you recognize he’s talking about the covenant.

Hank Smith: 00:08:06 Fantastic.

John Bytheway: 00:08:07 That is great. I feel like President Nelson, I too remember a talk that Elder Bednar gave where he said going on a mission isn’t something you do, it’s something you are because you are the children of Abraham. Just, I think there’s a greater… To quote Robert Millet, a greater covenant consciousness the past dozen or so years. And I love that we’re talking more about the Abrahamic covenant. So I’m really glad you mentioned that, but let me go back to what’s worked for us. I just want to agree with you and looking for symbols, I think it was Victor Ludlow who said Jesus taught in simple parables, Isaiah taught in complex symbols.

John Bytheway: 00:08:46 I feel like the process of trying to understand those is part of the joy of studying Isaiah because you learn so much in trying to, “What does this mean?” And discovering what those symbols are. So totally amen to what you just said there.

Hank Smith: 00:09:00 Yeah. I think for me understanding the political history, really all of a sudden opened up Isaiah for me. Just the things we’ve been going through in previous episodes about coming into the promised land and then deciding we wanted a king and how we had our three kings and things fell apart. Here comes Isaiah right before… Correct me if I’m wrong here, Kerry, but just a couple of decades before the fall of the northern kingdom he’s coming in and he’s saying, “You’re going to fall.” And when you understand that, you can see it in his writings. You’re like, I get what he’s talking about. And then turning around and speaking to the southern kingdom saying, “You’re not far behind.”

Hank Smith: 00:09:45 He’s speaking to both of these kingdoms. Had I not known that history and what had happened, I would’ve been lost. And then to see where the Book of Mormon fits exactly just before the fall of that southern kingdom. It’s a testimony builder for the Book of Mormon. But I can see why Nephi loves Isaiah so much. He is the prophet saying there’s going to be a gathering. There’s going to be a gathering. And if you’re Nephi’s family, you got to rely on that promise that you’re not just lost and forgotten. One day there’s going to be a gathering and they are set on that promise. All of a sudden it clicked. This is why Nephi loves Isaiah so much.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:10:24 Yeah. Because they need that promise to come true for them because they have been scattered. I have to say amen to what you’re saying. That’s the other great key is to know the history and the politics. And as you said, Isaiah prophesied warning that the northern kingdom will be scattered and destroyed. During his ministry, while he is still prophesying, they are destroyed and scattered. And the southern kingdom is nearly destroyed. And the only reason they aren’t is because Hezekiah listens to Isaiah and gets his people to repent. We read that in 2 King 17 and 18.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:10:56 It’s also in Isaiah 36 and 37 which the Come, Follow Me curriculum doesn’t have us read because we’ve already read it. But I would review those chapters in your reading for next time. It happens in the middle of that. If you don’t remember that that’s what’s happening, you don’t understand most of what Isaiah’s talking about. This is his immediate context that he’s trying to get them to not be destroyed and he fails with the Northern kingdom, but he succeeds with Jerusalem. Most southern kingdom destroyed, but Jerusalem is spared because they listen to Isaiah.

Hank Smith: 00:11:25 I think that’s our episode with Josh Sears. So I would encourage everyone go back just a couple of episodes, if you haven’t heard that one and listen to it with Josh Sears, because he goes through this. Here comes the northern kingdom of Assyria. It takes out the northern kingdom and is heading straight to the southern kingdom. And basically Isaiah and King Hezekiah stand alone between the vast Assyrian army and Jerusalem. It’s an epic tale.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:11:56 Yeah. And that episode with Josh was masterful. I listen to you guys’ podcast while I make breakfast in the morning. Josh was so good at painting that picture of Rabshakeh there with Isaiah’s representative up on the wall and Rabshakeh down below yelling to him. He just made that applied to my life. I’ve taught that a hundred times and he helped me apply it to my life better than I ever had before.

Hank Smith: 00:12:17 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:12:18 Yeah. Kerry, can you say that again and explain to everybody just, if you can remember Assyrian captivity this, Babylonian captivity this and tie that with northern, southern kingdoms and because I think that would help people.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:12:32 Yeah. So during Isaiah’s ministry, he starts prophesying warning the northern kingdom that Assyria is going to come and they need to repent. They don’t and they are destroyed and scattered by the Assyrian kingdom. Then the Southern kingdom is also nearly destroyed by Assyria still during the reign of Hezekiah and during Isaiah’s ministry. And the only reason they’re spared from the Assyrians is because they listen to Isaiah. But immediately after that and you get this shift in Isaiah then about chapter 40 where… Well, really about chapter 39 where he starts to say, “Okay, your next big problem is Babylon.” He gives them all the warning they would have needed to avoid being destroyed by Babylon.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:13:14 I love Jeremiah. I absolutely loved Jeremiah, but to be honest, if they’d listened to Isaiah, they wouldn’t have needed Jeremiah. They wouldn’t have been having those problems, but they didn’t listen to Isaiah. So Jeremiah comes and Ezekiel and they don’t listen to them either, and so they do get destroyed by the Babylonians. It’s about a hundred years after they’re nearly destroyed by the Assyrians. They are about 115 years. They’re destroyed by the Babylonians and they didn’t need to be. That’s the tragedy.

John Bytheway: 00:13:39 And I feel like it helps us understand the Book of Mormon to say the Babylonian captivity is coming. “Lehi, get your family, get out of there.” And also perhaps it helps us to understand why Lehi had a tough sell because Jerusalem was so miraculously protected during the Assyrian siege. And so, “Come on, Jerusalem is going to be destroyed.” And they’re going, “Well, probably not because last time the Lord protected us.” I feel like that makes a big, “Oh, I see why perhaps people weren’t believing Lehi because it didn’t happen that way. Last time they reached even onto the neck, doesn’t it say? But they never entered Jerusalem. So maybe they’re thinking, “Oh, we’re going to be saved.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:14:23 I think that’s exactly why Laman and Lemuel said, “Oh, this great city Jerusalem can’t be destroyed.” Like, “Oh, we’ve seen this before. It’s fine. God takes care of us.” Kind of forgetting, well, you have to be obedient to the covenant to get the blessing of the covenant part. Right?

Hank Smith: 00:14:36 The Book of Mormon, I remember years and years ago, all of a sudden the history clicked and it was finding the perfect puzzle piece that you’re missing in a puzzle to see how well the Book of Mormon fits right here in history. It’s a testament to the book.

John Bytheway: 00:14:53 And the idea that Lehi wasn’t scattered because of wickedness, but to preserve a part of the family of Joseph. And I love that idea. I’m going to scatter you. I’m going to move you out of there. And like you said, Hank, and so here’s Nephi saying, “We’ve got a different area code now, but we are still house of Israel. We still have to keep the covenant and the promises. The covenant still applies to us.” And it’s kind of like, “Oh, this is why Nephi is so interested in Isaiah.” I’m glad you said that, Hank.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:15:22 Yeah. And it’s so profound. I mean, the reason Isaiah is so interested in the gathering of Israel is because he’s witnessing the scattering. And put yourself in his prophetic shoes. He is one of the greatest prophets ever. And yet he’s going to completely fail in getting the northern kingdom to repent. But his comfort in that, he’s like Mormon where he knows, “Okay, I did my best. I did exactly what God asked me to do. It’s not my fault, but I still would’ve liked for these people to not be destroyed.” But his comfort for it is, “I know they will be gathered.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:15:55 And one of the things he prophesied frequently about that is he says, “Well, a remnant will be preserved.” So you’ll have remnants of those tribes from the north that will be preserved. But one of the fulfillments of that is the remnant that’s preserved by Lehi, as you said, and I think Josh explained it well in that episode you referred to. Josh Sears talks about them being scattered because of their righteousness, but that’s God’s method for preserving another remnant that then can be gathered. They become wicked, obviously, but they’re also in the midst of being gathered.

Hank Smith: 00:16:26 Perfect. So when we jump into these chapters today, when in that history has Assyria already taken the northern kingdom or are we pre that moment?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:16:36 Well really, for the most part before that moment, but that brings up another important point. Isaiah’s book isn’t fully arranged chronologically. Largely chronologically, but not completely. Chapter 1 is after that. It’s after Jerusalem has been miraculously spared. We don’t know that for sure, but he seems to be describing when he talks about a cottage in a vineyard. That’s Jerusalem, the only city left after everything else has been destroyed. So chapter 1 seems to have been written later, but it’s put at the beginning as a preface much like section one of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:17:09 This is the preface because it kind of captures the theme of the whole book. So at some point whoever’s arranging that, I don’t know if it’s Isaiah or someone later, but someone puts that chapter at the beginning. Then you get mostly chronological, but actually some of our chapters that we read for today and some that are in that section, but we’re not assigned to read them. So say chapters 13 through 20 are often called the chapters to the nations. So they’re grouped together by category.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:17:36 These are where Isaiah prophesied to Moab, the Philistines, the Arabs, Assyria, Babylon and Israel and Judah and tells them all that because they’re not repenting, they’re going to be destroyed. But because they’ve been categorized and as these chapters to nations, some of them aren’t fitting in the chronological order that you would expect where they’re placed in the book. Some of them to Moab, or actually you can tell after or about the same time that Israel is being destroyed.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:18:02 But that doesn’t happen until later chronologically in the rest of the book. You get a little bit of jumping around in there. But most of our reading, say chapter 21 through the rest is pre destruction of Israel. Although, we can’t tell exactly when that happens. It probably happens somewhere in the gap between this times reading and next time, but it’s somewhere in there. And then what you’ll cover for next week is that period where Judah is almost destroyed.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:18:35 But most of ours is the last moments before Israel is being scattered. And we also have to remember that Israel is scattered in stages. So Shalmaneser the third comes down and conquers them and scatters a bunch of them and 732 BC. And then they rebel. And so then you get both Sargon and Shalmaneser. Sargon and Shalmaneser come down and destroy them even more and scatter them even more. So you’ve got two time periods. So some of what we’re reading today is probably in between those time periods, where they’re in the midst of being scattered.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:19:07 I would guess Isaiah is feeling desperate about that. So we’re going to see in some of the chapters, we read his strong warning to the fact that they’re following bad leaders and it’s causing them a problem. And also his promise that at some point God comes and relieves them from those who are oppressing them. And those are themes that are heavy on his mind because of what’s going on around him.

Hank Smith: 00:19:29 Wow. All those kings you spoke of, those are Assyrian kings.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:19:33 They are Assyrian kings, yeah. They have tough sounding names, right? I mean, Shalmaneser, Tiglath-Pileser, they sound like they might come and beat you up. Right?

John Bytheway: 00:19:42 I’m glad you put it that way because that makes me think of Isaiah as a person to think he’s seeing this happen all around him and how heartbreaking that must have been and would affect the way he described things because he’s watching the destruction, he’s trying to warn them about it. It’s happening anyway. That makes you feel for Isaiah a little bit. Watching this happen and that’s why I’m saying this right now.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:20:06 In fact, in some of the readings that we’re not assigned to read, but they’re in this kind of section in those prophecies to the nation, so chapter 15 and 16 where he is prophesying about the destruction that’s coming to Moab. And remember Moab is just across the river Jordan from them. He probably knows Moabites. I would be shocked if he doesn’t know Moabites. And as he talks about the vision, he sees the destruction coming to Moab, he says, “I’m undone. I’m weak in the knees. I feel sick about this.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:20:33 You can imagine, I mean, it almost makes it emotional to think about Isaiah saying, “I know those people and I’m seeing…” Before it’s happening, “I see what’s going to happen to them and it’s killing me. It reminds me of Nephi who says I saw, envision what happens to my people and it’s terrible. It’s just heartbreaking.” There are a couple of times in our reading for today if you include even the chapters we’re not assigned to read, but also in some of the chapters we’re assigned to read where Isaiah does give us that personal touch and he says, “This is hard for me. I don’t like seeing this stuff. I don’t like knowing about this sorrow.”

Hank Smith: 00:21:08 It’s the Book of Mormon which tells us he’s doing this scattering to save the tree, right? That’s Jacob 5. “I have to scatter this tree or the whole thing is going to go bad.” All of a sudden I got the message of Jacob 5. “It grieveth me that I lose this tree.” Over and over and over. Sometimes as I read Isaiah, I think, “Oh man, they’re being punished, but really they’re being saved.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:21:34 They’re being saved and they’re being humbled. This is one of the major messages I think of Isaiah and really the Old Testament in general. And when you get to Hosea, look for this, I think Hosea teaches this message better than any other book. But Isaiah is really powerful in this, that God humbles these people when they’re not keeping the covenant in an effort to get them to keep the covenant again.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:21:54 I think this is one of the reasons. I know this seems strange to people, but for me, no book of scripture conveys the mercy of God like the Old Testament does. And it’s because no matter how many times they mess up, he keeps giving them a chance. So I want you to think about this scattering of Israel that happens during Isaiah’s day and it’s so pertinent to our reading because it’s happening as Isaiah is making these prophecies.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:22:15 But think about what it does and what it says about God. He scatters Israel because they haven’t been keeping the covenant. He’s trying to humble them and bring them back to him. And he will succeed in bringing them back to him. But this is a 2,500 year cycle. The scatterings in about 730 BC and the gathering begins in 1820 AD. That’s 2,500 years. That’s a patient God, but he’s going to keep working with Israel if it takes 2,500 years. He’s going to keep working with Israel. And the beauty is now that they’ve been scattered throughout all the world when they come back to him, they can bring the whole world with them. It’s just such a beautiful plan.

Hank Smith: 00:22:56 It is. And within that 2,500 years, you have work in the spirit world then that can happen to gather Israel. On the other side of the veil, he hasn’t forgotten about them either.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:23:08 Yeah. I have to say as an Israelite individual, I try and liken myself to Israel as a whole thinking that Israel messed up countless times and God is going to keep working with them even if it takes 2,500 years, gives me some comfort that it might take 2,500 years for me, but if it takes 2,500 years, fine. That’s good with God. He’ll be as patient as he needs to with me. As a covenant individual, that’s comforting.

Hank Smith: 00:23:33 Yeah. It’s helpful for parents and grandparents who think that they’ve got to get their child or grandchild to turn it around by next week.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:23:42 Then yet at the same time, when you say that, it also gives me a glimpse of how God must feel because I think that about either some of my kids or some of my nieces and nephews and cousins and so on, I think they’ll get it turned around eventually, but I sure hate to see the misery they’re going through now. I hate to see the suffering they’re bringing upon themselves. And I would guess God feels that way exponentially.

Hank Smith: 00:24:04 Yeah.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:24:06 I think that the Old Testament teaches us about God’s mercy more than any other book because we keep seeing how often his covenant people break the covenant and how he always gives them another chance. No matter how hard it is, no matter how much work it takes or how long it takes, God always gives them another chance and he will succeed in bringing them back. And that’s incredible mercy.

John Bytheway: 00:24:30 I’m so glad you said that because I know that probably all of us hear this idea of the Old Testament God seems like angry and the New Testament God seems like this. And so for you to say that helps people to look for that. Recently, I was reading about Corianton and how Alma talks to him and he says, “I know more the justice of God, and don’t excuse yourself, but let the justice of God and his mercy and his long suffering.” You’re missing those parts, Corianton. You’re only seeing this. And then he said, “Let them have full sway in your heart.” What an interesting phrase that God has all of those in a perfect harmony, his justice, his mercy, and his patience, his long suffering. And let all of that have full sway in your heart if you want to have a picture of what God is really like.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:25:22 It’s a theme that moves me and is very important to me. In fact, the first thing I ever wrote was really on this topic because I’m so moved by it. It speaks to me.

Hank Smith: 00:25:33 Yeah. The manual talks about this right in the opening part of the lesson, it says that, “Here’s Isaiah’s assignment to go tell these powerful rulers of these mighty kingdoms that they must repent or be destroyed. It was a dangerous task, but Isaiah was fearless in his warnings to the kingdoms of his day, including Israel and Judah were bold.” And then the next paragraph, John, this is what you just said, “However, Isaiah also had a message of hope, even though the prophesied destructions eventually did come upon these kingdoms, Isaiah foresaw a chance for restoration and renewal. The Lord would invite his people to return to him. He would make the parched ground to become a pool and the thirsty land spring of water. He would perform a marvelous work and wonder restoring to Israel, the blessings he had promised them.”

Hank Smith: 00:26:28 Don’t forget both sides. You’re seeing, yes, there’s a destruction that’s coming because of disobedience and breaking covenants, but there’s also always that chance at renewal and restoration.

John Bytheway: 00:26:42 Wonderful.

Hank Smith: 00:26:43 All right. Kerry, you ready to jump into these chapters?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:26:47 Yeah. And there’s more to cover than we could possibly cover. So let’s just pick a couple of verses with maybe sometimes a whole chapter of it, but sometimes a couple verses within a chapter to highlight things and see what we can talk about. One thing maybe we’ll just touch on, we won’t maybe even read much from it, but if we’re going to talk about these kind of multiple fulfillments, I think a good example of that is in Isaiah chapter 13 and 14 when it’s talking about Babylon, but it’s also clear that it’s talking about Satan at the exact same time.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:27:20 So this is a prophecy that Babylon who will destroy Judah at some point. And Isaiah has seen this in vision. It’s going to destroy Judah, but it will be destroyed. And all these nations that it humbled. It’s actually fairly short-lived empire. Really big and powerful and less than a hundred years, and it’s gone. He compares that really to Satan who is powerful, but Satan’s day really is short. At some point, just like all the nations that have been conquered by Babylon and they say, “We’re still here and you’re gone. That’s kind of weird.” One day we’re all going to say that to Satan.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:27:59 So that’s just a great example of him writing something, crafting it so carefully and so well that it fits perfectly both situations. And as a result, in many ways, Babylon becomes the symbol and still is used today as the symbol for Satan and world, and worldliness because of the way that Isaiah so carefully equates the two.

Hank Smith: 00:28:22 The northern kingdom of Israel is going to be destroyed by Assyria around 722, 721 BC. And Isaiah is going to have a message for both of those kingdoms. The southern kingdom of Judah, which Lehi was a part of, is going to fall around 587, 586 BC by Babylon. And the Lord has a message, not only to Judah, but also to the destroyers, Babylon, as if Babylon is coming in going, “Look how powerful we are,” and the Lord is saying, “Hold on a second, I have a message for you.” And then this same message can apply to the adversary and his kingdom.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:29:03 That’s exactly right. I don’t want to complicate things too much, but I think we won’t understand a few things if we don’t remember that in the middle of those, in between those at about 701 BC, Judah is nearly destroyed by Assyria as well. And so some of the prophecies about Assyria are about what they’re doing to Judah while some of them are about what they’re doing to the kingdom of Israel. And then some of the prophecies are about what Babylon will do to Judah. All three of those time periods are addressed by Isaiah and he lives through two of them.

Hank Smith: 00:29:33 I don’t know. I find this just ironic that here comes Babylon thinking they’re all tough and amazing and they destroy Judah, and there’s a message. “Oh, by the way, you are a tool in God’s hand.” Or is it Assyria that he tells that to? “You are a tool in God’s hand. Don’t be thinking you’re high and mighty just because you took this kingdom.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:29:57 And all of this is so transient when they think that they’re so powerful and yet in comparison with God, it’s just a blip in time. I was actually thinking about this just before I came here. I met a person who knew my dad and he was talking about a guy who was a big bully there, and so on. And then how he was tough enough to beat this bully and so on. This is a guy who at this point is 87 years old and was having a hard time walking over to meet me. So these guys who were all so tough in their day are having a hard time moving along. And that’s my future too, right? I mean, we’re all going to get to…

John Bytheway: 00:30:29 Yeah.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:30:30 It’s the same thing with empires. We all think we’re so big and bad at some point and Satan is the [inaudible 00:30:38] version of this. He really thinks he’s big and bad, but the day is coming where he is just gone and the only thing that’s going to last are things that are connected with God.

John Bytheway: 00:30:46 I saw a T-shirt in Jerusalem. It was a list of all of the kingdoms that attacked Israel and failed. Have you seen that one?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:30:55 Yeah, I love that T-shirt.

John Bytheway: 00:30:56 Yeah. And there’s my favorite description of the different Jewish feast many of which still practice today was, “They tried to kill us. They failed. Let’s eat.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:31:08 And that T-shirt you had, if I remember at the summary at the bottom, it’s something like nations that fight against God or Israel or God’s covenant people, or something like that, nations that fight against God, zero God, 14 or something.

John Bytheway: 00:31:21 Yeah, something like that.

Hank Smith: 00:31:21 What chapter do you want to start with?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:31:25 I’d like to start with one that again is in the range of chapters we cover this week, but it’s not actually in the assigned reading, but it has some things in it that are just important enough that I think it’s key to understand a couple of things. So if we went to chapter 22, we won’t look at every verse in here, but I want to look at a couple of verses that I think are really important. And we can also see just some of Isaiah’s amazing poetic abilities.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:31:48 So it starts out in 22:1, he says, “The burden of the valley of vision. What aileth thee now that thou art wholly gone up to the housetops? Thou art full of stirs, a tumultuous city, joyous city, thy slain men are not slain with the sword nor dead in battle.” So let’s think about that, the valley of vision. We typically think of this as the Kidron Valley. And the reason for this to some degree is because there are a number of visions where you see Jerusalem is seen. They know about what’s going to happen in the future in Jerusalem. So there are a lot of visions that surround that area that people have had about what will happen there, but it’s also a play on words because these are people who should have a vision.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:32:28 Remember this phrase from Moses where there is no vision the people perish. They should have a vision, but they’ve lost their vision. So now all they care about is going up on top of their roofs and having a party. They’re no longer having the kind of eternal vision or a long term perspective that all they care about is partying and God lets them know that actually they are going to have people who die with a sword and so on.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:32:50 But both when Assyria comes, when Babylon comes later, when Rome comes against Jerusalem, the majority of people that die, die from famine because they lay siege to the city. They’re not slain by the sword or in battle. They’re slain because they’re starving. And these are the same people who are actually up there having a big banquet on their rooftop. And they’re about to starve to death because they don’t have the kind of vision that they should. Wonderful poetic stuff.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:33:15 Let’s continue with that idea just a little bit by skipping over to verse 7 where he says, “It shall come to pass at that thy choicest valleys shall be full of chariots, and the horsemen shall set themselves array at the gate.” So he is continuing this play on words with the valley of vision. But what’s the vision that Isaiah’s seen? He’s seen the Assyrian army and he probably sees the Babylonian army too, coming against them.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:33:39 And in the verse before it, he talks about Elam and Kir who we know were countries that both of those countries had conquered and they forced them in their army and they came to battle against them. Specifically we know with Babylon that those two countries were there laying siege to Jerusalem. He’s saying, “You want to talk about a vision. Now it’s a nightmare. And the nightmare is that you wake up and you look out and you’re surrounded by the biggest armies in the world. And you’ve got a problem.” And then he goes on to warn them.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:34:06 I think this is so important because this is one of the places where he gives a warning to Jerusalem and Hezekiah that makes a difference. So let’s read this. This makes a huge difference. We’re going to go to verse 9. You’ve seen also the breaches in the city of David that are many, and you gather together the waters of the lower pool. And you have numbered the houses of Jerusalem and the houses have you broken down to fortify the wall. You also made a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:34:35 Now, we’re going to pause there. We’re going to read the second part of that verse in a second, but he’s talking about what Hezekiah has done. So historically when the northern kingdom was conquered and destroyed, it was partially because of what you talked about last time with Jason Combs and what’s happening in Isaiah chapter 7 through 9, where, A, has this problem that the northern kingdom and Syria want them to join them in battle against Assyria and Isaiah warns him. He says, “Don’t do that. Don’t go to Assyria either. Just do nothing, repent and let God take care of it.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:35:06 But he chooses to listen to the world instead. So he goes to Assyria and says, “Come help me.” Assyria helps him. But as a result, the kingdom of Judah becomes a vassal to Assyria. And now they have to send huge amounts of taxes and they have to send men and women to be their servants and their slaves and to be in their army. So their children, their teenagers are going to tribute every year. And after a while, this becomes too burdensome. They just can’t keep doing it.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:35:32 So Hezekiah is going to rebel. He’s going to withhold that tribute. That’s the form of the rebellion. He’s withholding the tribute. So as he’s getting ready to do this, he says, “Okay. Well, I know Assyria will come against me. What do I need to do to get ready?” So he does a number of things. One of them is he’s going to make an alliance with Egypt. Isaiah is going to get after him for that. We’re going to come back to that in a minute. But the other thing is he’s going to prepare Jerusalem. He’s going to get Jerusalem ready for a siege.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:35:59 Now, he’s had a lot of people move into Jerusalem because they were refugees from the northern kingdom. So he has to expand the city and the wall anyway. So he’s going to repair the breaches in the wall of the city of David. So the city of David is not Bethlehem. Luke is the only person that refers to it. Bethlehem is the city of David. And that’s just because Luke was a Greek or didn’t know anything about what was going on there.

Hank Smith: 00:36:18 Okay.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:36:20 Every other time you read city of David, it’s Jerusalem, all right? But I don’t want to ruin your Christmas sims. They’re still nice. But he’s talking about Jerusalem here, the city of David. Hezekiah has seen the breaches in the wall and he’s going to fix them. And he also is going to build a huge wall to encompass the new inhabitants of the city that there wasn’t room for them in the city, so they built outside of the city. He’s going to encompass them behind this huge wall and archeologically we found this wall. It’s called the broad wall because it is so wide. It’s also really tall, but it is so wide.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:36:50 And note this part where he said, “The houses you’ve broken down to fortify the wall.” You can go into Jerusalem today. If you’re out by the Hurva Synagogue and just behind there, you’ll see where they’ve got this place, where you can still see the remains of the wall. And you can see, it’s one of the places where it’s built on top of a house. It goes right through a house. It’s got to be one of the houses that Isaiah’s talking about in this verse.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:37:11 Isaiah is a little unhappy about it. He says, “You’re tearing stuff down and doing all these things to try and fortify the city on your own.” And he also talks about gathering the water so that the Assyrians won’t have it, but they can have water inside themselves. This is when they built what’s called Hezekiah’s tunnel. It was probably started by his father, Ahaz. Archeologically it seems we’ve recently been uncovering clues that it was started by Ahaz, but it’s finished in Hezekiah’s day and he probably does most of the work. We don’t know for sure, but it’s probably mostly in Hezekiah’s day.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:37:37 So we call it Hezekiah’s tunnel where they build this tunnel to take it from the spring of Gihon. And instead of having it go outside the city like it had up to that point, he’s going to tunnel all the way underneath the city and bring it down to the bottom of the city where they’ll create the pool of Siloam that later Jesus will send a blind man to wash his eyes at.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:37:54 So that’s the tunnel and that he’s talking about there. So all of those are things that Hezekiah is doing to get ready for this battle. But I want you to now look at the last part of verse 11. After he says, you’ve built this ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool, that’s Hezekiah’s tunnel we’re talking about, but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect under him that fashioned it long ago.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:38:20 See, initially, Hezekiah is following in his father’s footsteps. He’s trusting in the power of man and the world, aligning himself with Egypt, building up these fortifications and he’s not turning to God. He’s not trusting in God. Isaiah is warning him here, and thank goodness Hezekiah listens. Now tradition holds it that Hezekiah, Ahaz, and it might be Isaiah, and one of the kings is a cousin with Isaiah and that actually Hezekiah may have married Isaiah’s daughter, so Isaiah might be his father-in-law.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:38:52 That’s all tradition. We don’t know if it’s true or not, but if so, then it’s nice that Hezekiah he can get access to Hezekiah And he listens to him. But one way or the other, Hezekiah listens and he repents. Now, it doesn’t mean he stops doing these things or that these things are a problem if you’re turning to God. In fact, an Egyptian army does come and that’s what draws the Assyrian army away from Jerusalem. And then God smites that army. But the Egyptian army did play a role in the saving of Jerusalem, but it wouldn’t have, or at least it wouldn’t have been successful if they hadn’t started turning to God. These walls in this water help them, but they wouldn’t have, and they wouldn’t have been enough if they hadn’t turned to God.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:39:30 And that’s the message that Isaiah is trying to get to Ahaz, Hezekiah and everyone who would ever listen to him start trusting in God. Forget about what the world is teaching you and trust in God. I’m so glad Hezekiah listened.

Hank Smith: 00:39:46 It reminds me of President Hinckley used to say, “I pray as if everything relies on God. I work as though everything relies on me.” So yeah, build your tunnels. Go get the water the way you want to get it. But you better be putting just as much effort into your reliance and relationship with God.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:40:04 And if they hadn’t repented and gotten rid of their idolatry, all of these things wouldn’t have worked.

Hank Smith: 00:40:10 Wouldn’t have mattered.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:40:10 But because they did get rid of the idolatry and they renewed the covenant and kept it, they worked.

John Bytheway: 00:40:14 And in the war chapters, in the Book of Mormon, Captain Moroni does this. It’s get your spiritual act together. Now, that we’ve done that let’s build fortifications and make swords and stuff like that. It’s really interesting to me that even in a war, you don’t make your spiritual life a back burner thing. Well, we’re too busy for that right now. We got to make our swords and our fortifications. No, no, no. That’s job. You got to get your act together, job one spiritually. And then don’t leave the other undone, but get your act together first. And then we’ll see that here.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:40:46 In fact, as you say that, it reminds me of Moroni’s son, Moronihah, who, after they lose a whole bunch of land to the Lamanites works on getting everyone to repent. And then it says, once they had repented, he felt like he could start to go from city to city and start to retake cities. And he only gets half of them, but he wouldn’t even try until he’d gotten the people to get their spiritual lives in order.

John Bytheway: 00:41:07 Yeah, job one.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:41:08 Let’s keep going in chapter 22, if it’s all right. We’ll just jump forward a couple of verses, but we get some really interesting stuff happening just after this. Verse 15 is where we want to start. After God is warning them that they need to repent, that they’re relying on the wrong kinds of things, they’re so worried about what the world is telling them. He gives us an example of this and he is going to do something specifically about it. So let’s go to verse 15, “Thus saith the Lord God of hosts, ‘Go get thee under this treasurer, even unto Shebna, which is over the house.'”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:41:40 So Shebna is a person who holds a very important position. He’s the steward of the king’s house and the treasurer. Being steward of the king’s house basically means he is the one who does everything the king wants to have done. So he is like the chancellor or something like this. He’s the guy who actually gets it done. Very important, very powerful.

John Bytheway: 00:42:00 Kind of like an executive secretary.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:42:03 Yeah, that’s exactly right. I’m with you on that. Verse 16 is what he says. “What hast thou here? And whom hast though here that that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock?” So his complaint is what are you doing? You’re putting all your wealth into a huge sepulcher that you’re carving out for yourself. And interestingly, we’ve actually found the lentil over a big sepulcher that says that Shebna so-and-so. I mean, we’ve found the sepulcher he’s talking about, and that lentil is now in a museum.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:42:35 But you see his point here. What you’re doing is ridiculous in two ways. One, you’re so concerned with having a big sumptuous tomb. You’re spending all of your time and your resources and your wealth on that when you’re about to be destroyed. And two, who cares about the tomb, right? It’s transient. Your body’s there for a little while. It molders and you’ll never really enjoy it. What are you thinking? He’s all concerned. He’s so concerned with all the wrong things, with transient unimportant things that the world has told him to be concerned about.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:43:04 So this is what Isaiah says is going to happen to him as a result, verse 17 and 18. “Behold, the Lord will carry thee away with a mighty captivity and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country. There shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy Lord’s house. And I will drive thee from thy station and from thy state shall he pull thee down?”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:43:30 So he’s basically saying when Assyria comes, because you haven’t gotten them to repent, you’ve been spending your time on the world’s ideas instead of my ideas, you’re going to go into captivity in Assyria and you’re going to die there. You’re not going to get to use this tomb anyway. And so as a result, I’m going to remove you from your station right now, because you’re not doing what you should be doing. You’re spending your time on the wrong things.

Hank Smith: 00:43:52 Talk about being caught up in the thick of thin things. I mean-

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:43:56 That’s exactly right.

Hank Smith: 00:43:57 You’ve got bigger problems and you’re focused on, “Well, I want to make sure my grave is pretty.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:44:03 Yeah. And the irony, okay, go ahead, but you’re not going to get use it anyway.

Hank Smith: 00:44:09 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:44:11 I just like the phrase violently turn and tossing like a ball into a large country. There’s a sports sound to that thing right there.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:44:19 Yeah, that’s right. He’s just going to bounce, pass him over into Assyria, right?

Hank Smith: 00:44:24 There’s a lot of application there, Kerry, don’t you think?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:44:27 Oh, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:44:27 Why are you spending your time on this for? There are real battles out there. Your children, your grandchildren are fighting real battles and here you are concerned with whatever you’re concerned with, what your Instagram feed looks like.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:44:41 And I think we can all take a moment right now and ask ourselves, what is it that I’m spending so much of my time and energy on because the world has told me that this is important and I really should be putting my time and resources into something else. There’s got to be some way for all of us that that’s happening right now. It’s not an if question, it is a how question? How is it happening for us? As we’re talking, I’m thinking of some things I can do differently.

Hank Smith: 00:45:07 Yeah, me too.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:45:09 Now, we have an unspoken principle in the transition that’s going to happen here, but I think it’s worth talking about. You may probably remember chapter one and right before the famous verses, verse 18, where he says, “Though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be white as snow.” You get verse 16 where he says, “You’ve got to quit doing the evil stuff.” And verse 17 where he says, “You’ve got to start doing the good stuff.” And the transition between them, the last little line of verse 16 and the first line of verse 17 is cease to do evil. That’s the end of 16. And then first line of 17, learn to do well.

Hank Smith: 00:45:43 That’s in Isaiah 1.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:45:45 This is a principle… Yeah, Isaiah 1:16 and 17. And then right after that, he’s going to say repent and we can get you all cleaned up here. Though it’s red, it can become white. I can’t tell you how many times as a bishop I’ve used that phrase that cease to do evil, learn to do well because when you’re trying to stop a bad behavior, you have to replace it with a good one. If not, you’ve got this vacuum and you slip back into the bad behavior. You’ve got to replace it with a good one. So that cease to do evil, learn to do well is profound. And that’s what he’s going to do for Judah here. He’s going to get rid of Shebna and he’s going to put in someone really good in his place.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:46:21 So let’s read what he does, verse 20, “And it shall come to pass in that day that I will call my servant, Eliakim the son of Hilkiah.” This is the same Eliakim that when you were talking with Josh Sears and Rabshakeh came to the wall and was yelling up there, Isaiah’s major representative as Eliakim. This is the guy. This is how he got into that position, that he would be doing that. And I will clothe him with thy robes. So he is talking to Shebna and he’s saying, “I’m taking away your robe. I will clothe him with thy robe and strengthen him with thy girdle. I will commit thy government into his hand. And he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem to the house of Judah and the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder, so he shall open and none shall shut and he shall shut and none shall open.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:47:09 So let’s think about that. He’s going to give him the robes of office that Shebna wears. The description of his robes are very similar to the description of the robes that Aaron would receive. And you went over that with Matt Gray, I remember where you’ve got this priestly robe and then a girdle. And then he’s got the brass ephod. But coming up from that, that on the shoulders are insignias of power or authority. And that’s what he’s describing is there’s some kind of way that this person in this very important position dresses where he has the robe and the girdle that is close to a priestly robe and girdle. And there’s an insignia that goes on his shoulder that says that he has the key to the whole government.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:47:49 Underneath the king, he does everything. By the way, this is the kind of image that Isaiah must have been referring to when back in chapter 9, when he said, “And the government will I lay upon his shoulders.” And you can probably hear Handel’s Messiah singing that. But that’s the image that they’re drawing on. And we see the sealing imagery in verse 22, where he says, “He’ll open and none shall shut and shut none shall open.” That’s again, drawing on priesthood power allegory. But what he’s saying is he’ll be so powerful that besides the king, if he says something is going to happen, no one can make it not happen. And if he says something shouldn’t happen, no one can make it happen.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:48:23 So you see these are illusions to Christ. This is about Eliakim, but these are illusions to Christ. And that’s strengthened when we get to verse 23. “And I will Fasten him as a nail in a sure place, and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father’s house. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:48:52 So in the original context, this is still talking about Eliakim and there are a couple of symbols, I think with this nail in a sure place. One is that I’m giving him this office so securely it’s like, I fastened this with a nail that can’t come out. That’s how much I’m putting him in this office and no one is taking him from it. He’s going to fulfill this office so well that it will make his father’s house glorious. It gives glory to his father and his family name, and he’s going to be the most glorious of any of his family because of this.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:49:23 So that’s one of the fulfillments or one of the symbols. But there’s a second symbol. In at least in Mesopotamia. And so this is a near eastern neighbor culture with which Israel would be very familiar, and they may have done this in Israelite places as well, and we just maybe haven’t found the archeological examples, but in Mesopotamia, in a temple or in some of the palaces and a couple really important houses, they would symbolically take a big clay nail and they would write the terms of the treaty or the covenant. So the agreement with God that you would serve the God of that temple or the agreement with this king, you would write it on that clay nail and you would then sink it into that temple or that house. And that symbolically says this temple functions and is built upon this covenant agreement.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:50:10 That’s a nail in a sure place. So I think there’s some symbolism here as well, that the covenant with the house of David, this Davidic Covenant is going to function here. I will save you like I promised I would because of what Eliakim will do. And what does Eliakim do? He works with Hezekiah when Hezekiah gets his people to get rid of their idolatry, repent, renew their covenant and serve God so that they’ll be miraculously spared.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:50:37 That’s the original context. But when I think of that, it helps me understand all the better how this applies to Christ because Christ is also a fulfillment of someone who brings glory to his father’s throne and has the government upon his shoulders and has the key to the house of David and is fastened with a nail in a sure place.

Hank Smith: 00:50:58 Wow.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:50:58 And gets us to get rid of our idolatry and repent, and renew our covenant so that we can serve God and thus be saved. I understand that better about Christ because I see what’s happening with Eliakim came here.

John Bytheway: 00:51:13 So good.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:51:14 I should also note that verse 25, the last verse in the chapter is a little hard to understand. First of all, the Hebrew of it is a little bit weird and secondly, Joseph Smith tells us no one understands this verse. So I’m okay that I don’t understand it. I fit in that category of the no one. I don’t have a lot to say about that verse, but the verses before that, I feel like we can understand fairly well.

John Bytheway: 00:51:34 There’s a footnote for our listeners, footnote 20A, it says Eliakim shall replace Shebna. Moreover, the symbolic name Eliakim in ensuing versus becomes representative of the Messiah, the Savior, especially verse 23 through 25. The name means God shall cause to arise. So that’s one of those where I want to mark the footnote as well as the verses.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:51:58 Agreed.

John Bytheway: 00:51:59 When we did Ezra chapter 9, verse 8 says this, “And now for a little space, grace has been showed from the Lord, our God to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes and give us a little reviving in our bondage.” That’s an interesting phrase, a nail in his holy place, but the footnote 8B takes us to Isaiah 22 verses 23 and 25, which we just read. So that was ones I wanted to tie together.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:52:39 And it makes me think that they may have done this in the same way we were talking about with those Mesopotamian temples, that they may have had a nail in the temple. And it’s not a real nail that holds things together, because it’s made of clay, but there may have been something that had the terms of the covenant on it that is placed in the temple because the temple is so much about the covenant with the house of Israel today and in their day.

Hank Smith: 00:53:02 So I just want to make sure I understand that correctly, Kerry. There’s a symbolic nail placed into the temple with the terms of the covenant and that would be this nail in the sure place.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:53:13 And it’s the nail that makes everything sure. The covenant is what makes it sure. And that’s because Christ makes it possible for the covenant to be fulfilled. And so you can see the symbolism going back and forth between the covenant and Christ and the nail and what Christ suffers and so on. I think it’s just a beautiful interweaving of language and symbols.

Hank Smith: 00:53:34 Yeah. Definitely one of those connect the Old and New Testaments together.

John Bytheway: 00:53:39 This is why Isaiah was brilliant. There could be a present fulfillment and there could be a future fulfillment of so many of the things he said, or maybe even multiple fulfillments.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:53:53 Yeah, for sure. Multiple fulfillments. And again, I think if you understand the original context, usually you understand the other fulfillments all the better. Like I said when you understand a symbol, you need to look at the literal symbol first and then you can understand all of the ways it can be applied. If you understand the original context, you understand better all of the other ways it can be applied.

Hank Smith: 00:54:15 Right. Don’t jump automatically to the second level or third level. Stay in his time and his time period. The things they are dealing with in their day because they’re amazing.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:54:30 Yeah. I mean, that’s one of the reasons why I wrote the commentary I did. I love all the commentaries that our friends and colleagues have written and they’re wonderful. And so I thought, “Well, do I really need another one?” But one of the things that I felt like is that we so often, even in all those commentaries jumped to the latter-day fulfillment and don’t spend much time on the original context and that hampers our ability to really understand it. So I tried to spend a lot of time, not as much time as we could and not in every verse, but a lot of time on the original context to help us understand the history, the geography and the culture and how they would’ve taken it. And then we can take that next step.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:55:06 So I try and do that, have the next step as well. I don’t do it for every verse because the book would be too big, but I feel like that’s something as members of the church, we can do better this year than ever before because we’ve paid the price to understand the history better this year than ever before. So we should be able to get more out of that original context so that we can then get more out of how it applies to us.

Hank Smith: 00:55:28 That’s wonderful.

John Bytheway: 00:55:29 Well, I think this is one of the reasons that Jesus would say great are the words of Isaiah, because he pulls this off. He speaks of things in one time and it applies in another time. And you’re like, “Whoa, how did he do that?” I’ve had students, “Well, I still don’t understand why great are the words of Isaiah?” Well look, what he was able to do here. I think for me, the one that is amazing is he can describe the coming Assyrian army with a army type intent and a future army of missionaries in the latter-days. And he uses the same words and it works both ways and you’re like, “How did he do that?”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:56:11 He’s impressive. I can’t tell you how many times. I mean I’ve studied Isaiah a lot. I mean I’ve written about every single verse. I’ve studied him intensely. I’ve taught classes in Isaiah for quite a while now. And still every time I read him, I’ll think, “Oh, I never noticed that. Well, that’s good. That’s really good.”

Hank Smith: 00:56:30 That’s why Jesus, whenever he sees Isaiah, I’m sure he says, “Love your book.” Whenever it seems like Jesus wants to quote scripture, he quotes Isaiah.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:56:39 Yeah. Isaiah and Psalms are where he goes the most and then do them.

Hank Smith: 00:56:42 Yeah, right.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:56:44 Well, what if we jump ahead and we’re just going to kind of summarize one of the things I think can be helpful in understanding Isaiah is understanding sections or chunks of Isaiah that work together. In fact, that’s another clue I’d love to give all your audience. Often. I can’t tell you how often in my commentary I wrote this. At the first verse of one chapter, I would say this just continues the thought that was in the last chapter, but we see a chapter heading and-

Hank Smith: 00:57:08 We do a memory wipe.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:57:10 Yeah. But so often it’s like say, six, chapters that are really all one thought. They just go together. Right?

John Bytheway: 00:57:17 Yeah.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:57:18 And if you can see those kind of chunks and realize, “Okay, these go together and here’s really a break and then these go together.” I think that’s really useful. So I would say chapters 24 through 27 are a cohesive unit or

John Bytheway: 00:57:29 One thought, oh wow.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:57:31 Yeah. It’s worth looking at in that way. So Isaiah’s finished prophesying to all of the nations and now he’s going to start to really focus on Judah again. We get this unit that ties together where some people actually think that 24th or 27 was so cohesive. They feel like it’s written by a different person at a later time period and that someone just stuck it in here. Theologically, I don’t have a problem with that. I’m fine if there was some other inspired writer that people said, “Oh, this is like Isaiah. I put it in Isaiah’s book. If it’s inspired, fine with me.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:58:02 I’m not convinced by that because it seems so like Isaiah, the themes work with Isaiah. I think it’s just a really cohesive unit. So to me it’s probably more likely like that at some point in time, probably, maybe just as Israel’s starting to be scattered or something like that, and he’s almost maybe panicked about Judah and wanting to save Judah, something like that. He writes either a sermon or a couple of sermons together in his mind and they become these chapters.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:58:28 I don’t know if that’s how it really worked, but I would guess it’s something like that. And the major theme here is that while Judah will need to be humbled, they can be rescued and will be rescued by God and be able to rejoice as a result. So these in many ways are “I know you’re going to be humbled, but there’s reason to rejoice because God will deliver you” section of chapters. Now, that’s a theme that’s all throughout Isaiah and we get it again and again, but it’s particularly tied in these sections.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:59:03 In fact, I would say covenant and redemption are the two most prevalent themes in the Book of Isaiah. And of course redemption comes because of God’s servant who is primarily Christ, but also other servants. But Christ primarily is the servant that gives us redemption. And so covenant and redemption are what are so important to him. And that’s really strong in this area. These chapters, 24 through 27, they’re sometimes called the little apocalypse because they’re about this idea of you will have bad things happen to you, but don’t worry, God will relieve the oppression and you’ll be delivered and have joy. This actually has some really important latter-day fulfillments, right? Apocalyptic fulfillments. We know it’s going to happen at the end of time.

Hank Smith: 00:59:45 Kerry, so if I’m placing this in my timeline, this is when Assyria has taken the Northern kingdom and is coming into the southern kingdom and you’re thinking it’s over for us.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:59:58 Yeah. I don’t know how precisely we can place it. I think it’s likely either in between 730 and 720 when Israel has started to be scattered, but it’s not completely scattered, but Isaiah can see, “Oh, Judah’s next.” Or it might be in between 720 and say 700 when the northern kingdom has been scattered and Isaiah see that Judah is next. So it’s somewhere in there. I really get the sense that he says, “All right. We’re starting to see what this looks like when it happens. I don’t like it and I really want my people to miss it.” But he knows it’s going to happen and he wants to give them reason to rejoice nonetheless. Right?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:00:38 Like Nephi who says, “Okay, I know my people get destroyed, but Isaiah gives me reason to have comfort.” Eventually it gets good. As bad as it is, eventually it gets good.

Hank Smith: 01:00:49 That’s just a lesson in itself right there. Sermon in a sentence as bad as it is, eventually it gets good.

John Bytheway: 01:00:57 I was going to ask you before who divided these into chapters? When did that actually happen when a cohesive thought was broken up into chapters that we use today?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:01:06 For some prophets, we don’t know how their word gets put into writing. Someone like Amos who was out working behind the flock and so on probably wasn’t even literate. And what he prophesied, someone else probably had to write down. Jeremiah was literate, but we know he had a scribe that wrote his words down. With Isaiah, I suspect Isaiah did his own writing because it’s probably too complex for anyone else to do and do well. He makes up words. He does all sorts of stuff.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:01:35 I’m not exaggerating. He does make up words, making plays on words and he just kind of makes stuff up. In fact, we’ll look at some examples in a minute. I don’t think anyone else could probably pull off writing the stuff that Isaiah writes. He probably has to put his own words down because no one else was like, “Wait, how did he say that again?”

Hank Smith: 01:01:50 Elder Maxwell.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:01:52 Yeah. That’s exactly right. Yeah. How would you like to try and get all of Elder Maxwell’s phrases down just perfectly if he does it all orally and it’s your job to get it in a book. Right? Good luck. The question you’re asking is after it’s written down, how is it divided? And I don’t know. Did Isaiah do some of that himself? Maybe. Or is it some people later who have just collected all of his writings and they’re putting it to…? And the answer is, we don’t know. We really don’t know.

John Bytheway: 01:02:16 What about when we found the dead sea scrolls and Isaiah was there? Were they divided?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:02:21 Yeah, they’re pretty much how we have them. But I mean that’s 200 BC, so that’s 500 years after this. So that great Isaiah scroll is one of the oldest scrolls that they had in the dead sea scrolls. So 500 years later, at least it was already pretty close to the same forum we have it in.

Hank Smith: 01:02:40 Fascinating.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:02:41 So let’s just start out on chapter 25 and just read a few of these verses and then we can talk about it. We’ll start in verse 1. “O Lord, thou art my God.” Now I’m just going to stop right here and say, I talked about Abrahamic covenant language. One of the phrases that is so much about the Abrahamic covenant is that God is our God and we are his people, right? That’s just said to Abraham. It’s a consistent part of it. So really anytime you see the phrase, my people or the phrase my God, it should be a little clue we’re dealing with covenant language. So that’s how this starts out. “O Lord, that art my God.” This is a covenant keeper who’s saying this.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:03:22 It’s Isaiah of course, but it’s also Isaiah I think speaking for anyone who’s really keeping the covenant. “O Lord, thou art my God. I will exalt thee. I will praise thy name for thou hast done wonderful things thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.” We’re going to acknowledge how amazing and wonderful God is. It’s almost Psalmlike that verse.

Hank Smith: 01:03:43 It is, yeah.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:03:45 “For thou hast made of a city and heap of a defensed city a ruin. A palace of strangers to be no city. It shall never be built.” Now when I think of praising God, the first thing I think of is not, “Man, you destroyed a lot of cities. That was so cool.” But for someone who is being attacked by foreign armies again and again, and again-

John Bytheway: 01:04:10 Good point.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:04:11 … this is what you think of. You can take whole cities and lay them waste. By this point, maybe Isaiah’s thinking about cities in the northern kingdom that have been destroyed. Verse 3, “Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.” I think he’s saying, “We’re going to glorify you and Assyria should be afraid.” But of course this is going to have applications in all sorts of ways. It’s not just in his own day. We should think, “Okay. Well, the way Nephi would put this if he’s thinking of his vision that he has in 1 Nephi 14 is that the children of the lamb of God, the church of the lamb of God and the great and abominable church, he’s going to see it in those terms.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:04:52 There are all sorts of ways we can see it. Now, verse four is beautiful, I think. “For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress.” This sounds like something I heard in the introduction. “A refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall. Thou shall bring down the noise of strangers as the heat in a dry place. Even the heat with the shadow of a cloud, the branch of the terrible one shall be brought down low.” So those who oppress us are going to be brought down just like you can see heat falling. “In this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:05:33 So note how he keeps contrasting these images. You’re getting rid of our oppressors and you’re taking care of us, which is exactly what the covenant promises will happen. So verse 5 is the getting rid of the oppressors. Verse 6, and the mountain that’s typically referring, not always, but typically referring to the temple or at least the temple mount. So there, the Lord will make a feast of fat things, the feast of wines on the lees, fat things full of marrow of wines on the lees well refined, right? So he is saying, “You’re giving us the best of the best. We are going to have a fantastic feast here.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:06:04 And now we’re getting to the part, I really want to focus on, verse 7 and 8. “And he will destroy in this mountain, the face of the covering cast over all people and the veil that is spread over all nations.” That’s probably supposed to be read a bunch of ways, but at least one of the important ways I read this is the thing that separates us from God is going to be destroyed.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:06:22 Again, it’s in this mountain, that’s the temple. And so there’s a veil that’s spread over all nations, but it’s covering us and separating us from God. So I think that’s one of the interpretations. I’m sure there are others, but one of the interpretations would be here when we have this great feast, when God has really taken care of us, there’s not going to be something that separates us.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:06:42 Now, look at verse 8. “He will swallow up death in victory and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces.” That is one of my favorite lines in all of scripture. “He will swallow up death in victory and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth for the Lord hath spoken it.” That is just so wonderful to think of God wiping our tears away.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:07:13 Death is conquered. So it’s not just Assyria that’s conquered. In this case, Assyria is standing as a symbol for death itself and Christ or Jehovah is defeating death and wiping tears away from us. Verse 9. “And it shall be said in that day lo, this is our God.” There’s that covenant imagery again. “We have waited for him and he will save us. This is the Lord. We have waited for him. We will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.” Just beautiful images of how all oppression, every kind of oppression will be ended and God will save us and wipe away our tears.

John Bytheway: 01:08:00 Please join us for part two of this podcast.