Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their come follow me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together we follow him.

Hank Smith: 00:00:20 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my co-host John Bytheway, who I will describe as one who refuses evil and chooses good. John, you refuse evil and choose good. When I read Isaiah seven, I thought of you. You refuse evil and choose good. And one of the things you chose good was to be a co-host on this podcast.

John Bytheway: 00:00:43 Thanks. That was a great invitation. I appreciated it.

Hank Smith: 00:00:46 Yes. Please keep doing that, John, keep doing that.

John Bytheway: 00:00:49 So I chose the good, I didn’t refuse the invitation.

Hank Smith: 00:00:52 Hey, speaking of choosing the good, we are starting a brand new section, five weeks of Isaiah coming up. And we chose not just a good Bible scholar, we chose a great Bible scholar to join us. John, tell everyone who’s with us.

John Bytheway: 00:01:08 We’re delighted to have Dr. Jason Combs with us today. He’s an assistant professor of ancient scripture at BYU. He joined the BYU faculty in 2016 after working as a lecturer at High Point University, Guilford College and University of North Carolina Greensboro in North Carolina, UNC Greensboro. He earned his bachelor’s degree in Near Eastern Studies from BYU, has a master’s degree in biblical studies from Yale Divinity School, and in classics from Columbia University. He earned his PhD in religious studies with an emphasis on the history of early Christianity from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:01:51 Thanks. I’m super excited to be here. I was really grateful when Hank reached out to me, and grateful that he let me talk a little about the one part of the Old Testament I know something about. I really specialize in New Testament and the period after that, but I’ve written a little bit on Isaiah six and a little bit on part of Isaiah seven. So really excited to talk about that today.

Hank Smith: 00:02:13 Jason is one of the kindest people you will ever meet. He and I have been friends for years now. We got hired at BYU around the same time. And you think someone this smart shouldn’t be this humble and kind, but he is. He’s everything you’d hope him to be.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:02:32 I appreciate that.

Hank Smith: 00:02:33 Jason, I know there’s a book coming out this fall with your name on it out of the Maxwell Institute. Tell us a little bit more about that. I know you’ve been working on it for a while.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:02:42 Yeah. Not only my name, I’m co-editing this book with Mark Ellison who’s also an ancient scripture as well as with two colleagues over at the Maxwell Institute, Kristian Heal and Catherine Taylor. It’s going to be a beautiful book, both Mark Ellison and Catherine Taylor specialize in early Christian art. And we have incorporated so much of that rich artistic history of early Christians into this book.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:03:07 We are covering all sorts of topics that would be of interest to Latter-day Saints. The history of the Canon, how we got the New Testament. We’re talking about church organization, how the church developed into a hierarchy with bishops and elders and deacons and all of that. We’re talking about rituals and worship, and how that evolved over time and developed beautiful, rich traditions. I have a chapter in it on the nature of God, on the Trinity, something that I think we often misunderstand as Latter-day Saints. And because of that, we often enter into disagreements with other Christians that we don’t have to have. We agree on a lot of things.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:03:52 Oftentimes when we Latter-day Saints talk about the history of Christianity after the New Testament, we tend to approach it from the perspective of the apostasy. So we look at it looking for problems. We look at it looking for differences from the church today.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:04:08 In this book, we’re taking a different approach in this book. We’re turning our hearts to our ancient Christian fathers and mothers, and asking what can we learn from them? And I think they have a lot of beautiful, rich insights to offer us to help us appreciate our own beliefs today and all that we’ve inherited from ancient Christians.

Hank Smith: 00:04:31 I think we have a tendency, Jason, if it’s post New Testament, but before Joseph Smith, we maybe just have a tendency to look over it like, “Oh! We don’t need that. That’s during the apostasy.” But I’ve heard you talk about a principle called holy envy. What is that?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:04:44 That term actually comes from Krister Stendahl, an ordained minister, also a famous New Testament scholar, who taught at Harvard University for years. But then when the church was trying to build a temple and there was a lot of protests, he actually intervened in order to help our church build a temple. And part of his intervention was using this principle that he called holy envy, where he said, I can look at another religion, one that is not my own, and find things in it that I wish were in my own religious tradition, things that I am envious of, but in a holy way. So he called it holy envy.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:05:27 I think it’s a beautiful principle, and one that we should value as well as Latter-day Saints. I think we can look at the beliefs of others and the practices and teachings of others and find things that we can have some holy envy for. It’s titled Ancient Christians: An Introduction for Latter-day Saints. It should be out by the end of the year, and it should be up on BYU’s Maxwell Institute pretty soon, on their publication page.

Hank Smith: 00:05:55 That’s exciting. Jason, John, this is the beginning of five weeks covering the book of Isaiah. So before we jump in, Jason, what would you tell our listeners on how they approach the next five weeks? I know some are going to be tempted to just, “I can’t do this. I’m going to skip it.” But don’t do that. Don’t do that. How would you start?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:06:16 Yeah. Well, that’s what you do when you read the Book of Mormon. You skip over the Isaiah chapters. Now you’re actually required to read them. It’s part of our Come Follow Me lessons. So let’s just start a little with what we know about Isaiah. And the truth is we don’t know much. We have his writings, but the writings don’t give us a whole lot about who this man Isaiah was.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:06:38 They give us a little bit, we can sort of pin down a date of when he lived. At the beginning of Isaiah six, he tells us that he has this amazing vision of God. And he says that this is in the year that King Uzziah died. And so we know that’s right around 740 BC. In the very first verse of Isaiah, we have maybe some editor or something introduce the book in this first paragraph where it just summarizes everything we’re about to read as the vision of Isaiah, the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, Kings of Judah.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:07:23 And so we know he continues preaching up to the time of King Hezekiah. King Hezekiah, his reign ends shortly after the siege of Jerusalem. So the Assyrian King Sennacherib will come down and lay siege to Jerusalem. I’m sure you’ve already covered this a little bit in Second Kings. So that’s right around 701 BC.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:07:46 And so he continues to reign a couple years after that. And then Manasseh, Hezekiah’s son, takes over from there. We can roughly estimate that Isaiah is preaching from 740 to about 701, but we don’t know how long he lived before then or how long he lived after. We get a couple of other hints about Isaiah’s life. We know that he has children. He takes one of them along to deliver a message at the beginning of Isaiah seven. And another one is mentioned in Isaiah eight. So we know he is married. He has children.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:08:24 There’s a legend about his death. There’s a legend that he is killed, that he dies as a martyr, under King Manasseh. That legend might be hinted at in the book of Hebrews in the New Testament. Hebrews chapter 11 is a list of all these different heroes of the Old Testament who exemplify living a life of faith. And it mentions that some were sawed in two. And that might be a reference to Isaiah because we know from a later tradition, both in Christianity and in Judaism, that there’s a tradition that Isaiah was killed under king Manasseh, and that he was sawed in half. Sounds like a horrible way to die. So I hope that legend is false.

Hank Smith: 00:09:07 Hebrews 11. I’m looking for that verse. What is that? I want to know that.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:09:11 It’s Hebrews chapter 11, verse 37, is the one that mentions-

Hank Smith: 00:09:16 Sawn asunder, there it is.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:09:18 Sawn asunder.

Hank Smith: 00:09:20 I’ve said that to my students before that sometimes in Christian art, Isaiah will be seen holding a saw. That goes with that tradition.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:09:27 There’s a Christian apocrypha text called the Ascension of Isaiah, definitely written by Christians, maybe second century or later, that sort of reimagines some of Isaiah’s prophecies as being even more direct about who Jesus Christ was, and what Jesus Christ did in his lifetime. And then it ends, he has that all sealed up, and then it ends with this story of him being sawn asunder, cut in half with a saw.

John Bytheway: 00:09:57 Placed inside of a hollow log first or something like that.

Hank Smith: 00:10:02 Not the peaceful death that anybody’s hoping for. Jason, tell me this, so 740 to 700 BC. That’s a pretty exciting time for the history of Israel. There’s a lot happening in that 40 year chunk.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:10:16 Right in the middle of that 722 is when Assyria comes and captures the Northern Kingdom of Israel, carries them away captive, and those become the lost 10 tribes of Israel. So Isaiah is the prophet of the scattering and gathering of Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:10:33 I like that.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:10:33 He witnesses the scattering and most of his prophecies throughout the book are about the future gathering of Israel. So he is an incredibly important prophet for that reason. So it really shouldn’t surprise us that the Book of Mormon encourages us to read Isaiah, that modern day prophets have encouraged us to read Isaiah, given that the gathering of Israel is such an important part of the restoration of the church.

Hank Smith: 00:10:59 Wow! I love that. The prophet of the scattering and gathering of Israel. He lives to see the scattering, and he prophesies of the future gathering. No wonder Nephi loves him so much because Nephi is living that scattering.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:11:15 And it’s important to realize that people can be scattered for different reasons. Nephi is part of a righteous kind of scattering. God scattered Lehi’s family in order to preserve that righteous line at the time when Babylon was about to invade and take the Southern Kingdom of Judah captive. So scattering can happen for a variety of reasons. And according to Isaiah, always part of God’s plan.

Hank Smith: 00:11:42 This is fascinating. He is living during a time of dramatic change in Israel. And he sees it coming, and then sees what’s going to happen after all this scattering. I should bring this up, John Bytheway, you wrote Isaiah for Airheads.

John Bytheway: 00:11:58 I did. It’s just the Book of Mormon chapters.

Hank Smith: 00:12:02 John, I always say that people can buy our books at DI. We have our own shelf right next to each other.

John Bytheway: 00:12:07 That’s where I get them.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:12:08 That’s nice.

John Bytheway: 00:12:09 And then I take the tags off and give them out as gifts.

Hank Smith: 00:12:13 Let’s keep going. Give us an overview of Isaiah. How should we approach this 60-what, 66 chapters.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:12:20 Very long book. It can be broken down roughly into three parts. The chapters one through 35 are Isaiah’s woes to Judah primarily, though he does have some warnings to other nations in there as well. But woes to Judah, they faced the looming threat of Assyria, who is already on the border of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, ready to invade. As we just mentioned 722, they do.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:12:48 Then 36 through 39 is a narrative. It breaks from Isaiah’s prophecies, I’ll say more about the nature of Isaiah’s prophecies in just a minute, and we get this narrative about the threat of the Assyrian king, Sennacherib. We learn a little about the Judahite king, Hezekiah, as he’s being guided by Isaiah to deal with the threat of Sennacherib. Then those sections end with the warning about future Babylonian exile.

Hank Smith: 00:13:15 If this sounds familiar, we’ve already covered this story in Second Kings. So if everybody’s going, “Hey, wait. I thought we already covered this.” We did with Dr. Josh Sears. We looked at the story of Hezekiah and Isaiah.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:13:28 And as you get to those chapters again, 36 through 39, and start reading them, you’re going to think, “Not only does this story sound familiar, but the way the story is told sounds very familiar,” because it is literally word for word the same as Second Kings chapters 18 through 20. Now there are some parts that are missing. There are some parts that have been changed slightly. But somebody is copying somebody here because this is word for word the same.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:13:56 Then after chapter 39, suddenly the tone shifts, and chapters 40 through 66 are dealing with the return of Israel, the return of a scattered Israel, and the return of Judah from Babylonian exile. And they are prophecies addressed to the people at that time.

John Bytheway: 00:14:16 Let’s emphasize that. It’s not the return from the Assyrian captivity. It’s the return from the Babylonian captivity, which hasn’t even happened. That was what Lehi was prophesying about. And actually, he mentions King Cyrus in there who hadn’t been born yet, unless he was really old.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:14:37 That’s right. Now organization, that is just a very simple way of describing the organization of these chapters. It may be more complicated. Some think that Isaiah gave these prophecies and then later the disciples of Isaiah were the ones that organize them. And there are some hints in the text that may very well be what happened.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:14:57 Take a look for instance, Isaiah 8, verse 16, Isaiah commands his disciples. He says, “Bind up my testimony, seal the law among my disciples.” Isaiah has disciples who are following him. He has another word for disciples is student or mentee or something like that. Apprentice might be good too. It could be that it was later disciples who organized the book of Isaiah as we have it today. So the organization is a little more complicated. Some think for instance that maybe Isaiah chapters 24 to 27 might belong to a later period. And so some of it is more complicated than the way I just laid it out. But that is a rough way of understanding the basic organization.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:15:42 The part we’re looking at today is just chapters one through 12. And that can be broken down roughly into three parts as well. Chapters one through five are primarily Isaiah’s prophecies against God’s people. So more woes. And after this section, beginning in Isaiah 13, you’ll see some prophecies against other nations.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:16:02 But in this section, Isaiah 1 through 5 prophecies against God’s own people. Isaiah 6 through 11 are prophecies that deal directly with the Syro-Ephraimite War. And we’ll talk a little more about that when we get there. And then Isaiah 12 concludes this section of Isaiah with praise to God. And it’s a beautiful, beautiful section. That’s the section we’ll be looking at today. Before we get into that though, it might be helpful to talk about some tips and tricks or tools for understanding Isaiah.

Hank Smith: 00:16:38 Because I think many Latter-day Saints hear Isaiah and they automatically go into I won’t understand mode where we don’t need to do that. You can understand this.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:16:50 That’s right. Let’s turn to the Book of Mormon real quick. I think this is the traditional way we approach finding our tools for Isaiah because Nephi gives us some. So if we turn to 2 Nephi 25 and we actually get some tools for understanding Isaiah here. And when I say I think that we make it worse, I mean that because I think we focus too much on one of the very first things Nephi says. He says in 2 Nephi 25, verse 4 that they’re not plain unto some people, not plain unto you. Nevertheless, they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:17:32 And so when we open up Isaiah and we start to read it and we don’t understand it, we think, “Oh! I’m just not filled with the spirit of prophecy. I’m not spiritual enough.” But Nephi doesn’t stop there. In fact, in just a couple more verses, he is going to talk about how the Jews understand, the Jews back in Jerusalem in his time, the Jews that elsewhere he calls wicked people. He says they understand it perfectly. So the spirit of prophecy is important. It is important to be righteous and to be open to God’s promptings as we read Isaiah. That is really important. But that’s not the only way to understand Isaiah. There are other tools that Nephi gives us.

Hank Smith: 00:18:13 He talks about the manner of which they speak, the manner of prophesying. He talks about knowing concerning the regions, knowing the geography and the history.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:18:24 Perfect. So let’s start with manner of prophesying.

Hank Smith: 00:18:30 That comes from 25, verse one, where Nephi says, “My people don’t understand because they know not concerning the manner of prophesying among the Jews.” What’s he talking about there, Jason?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:18:43 Well, I think Nephi characterizes his own way of prophesying, as he often uses terms like plain and precious. He’s trying to speak in a way that they cannot misunderstand. Isaiah has a different way of speaking, as do other prophets in the Old Testament. Their way of speaking is poetic. It uses a lot of imagery. There’s a lot of metaphor and simile. And in Hebrew poetry, there’s also a lot of repetition. Let’s take a look at how that works. Let’s turn to Isaiah chapter one.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:19:19 Quick pet peeve here while we’re turning to Isaiah one. My current ward has some great gospel doctrine teachers. This is not a critique of my current ward’s gospel doctrine teachers. But I have seen gospel doctrine classes before where you get to the Isaiah chapters of the Book of Mormon, and the entire lesson is on how to read Isaiah, and you never actually read Isaiah. So as we go through and talk about these different tools, I want to take each one straight into Isaiah and actually put it into practice so we can see how it works here.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:19:53 So let’s start with Isaiah chapter one, verse two. It says, hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for the Lord hath spoken. I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. So already you see the imagery at play here. God is calling upon heavens and earth to witness. And he is talking about Israel as his children, and how he’s nourished them and raised them up, but they’ve rebelled against him.

Hank Smith: 00:20:23 That’s not too tough to understand.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:20:26 Now in the next verses, you’re going to start to see the use of poetic repetition. The ox knoweth his owner. There’s one example. Here’s the next example.

Hank Smith: 00:20:36 Kind of like a family pet knows the family.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:20:39 That’s right. The ass his master’s crib. Crib is just a fancy old King James English term for a feeding trough. So those are in parallel. The ox knoweth his owner, the ass knoweth his master’s crib. Master is another word for owner, an ox and an ass are different animals. But it’s both the idea an animal knows their owner. So it’s the same sort of imagery, same sort of metaphor work. And he repeats it twice. Then we get another repetition. But Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. So Israel is God’s people.

Hank Smith: 00:21:17 The animal gets this. Why can’t you guys get this?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:21:22 That’s right. Continuing on. Ah sinful nation. What’s another name for sin, iniquity. People laden with iniquity.

Hank Smith: 00:21:34 A seed of evil doers,

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:21:36 The seed, meaning offspring, of evil doers. What’s another word for offspring or seed? Children. Children that are corruptors.

Hank Smith: 00:21:43 So it’s the repetition.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:21:44 You see what’s happening here?

Hank Smith: 00:21:45 Yeah.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:21:45 You get this constant repetition. They have forsaken the Lord. They have provoked the holy one of Israel into anger. So I think oftentimes, we expect to find … Because we’re used to reading the Book of Mormon more than any other scripture, we expect to find unique meaning in every sentence and that’s not true with Isaiah. Isaiah is painting a picture for us. Everything we’ve read is just trying to help us to see that Israel is rebellious. That’s his whole point. But he’s taken a lot of words, a lot of poetic imagery, to say that.

Hank Smith: 00:22:24 John, that reminds me of you and I. You’ve taken a lot of words to say something very simple. That was a lot of talking for one very simple point. But still, that’s the way he talks, right Jason? This is the manner of prophesying among the Jews.

John Bytheway: 00:22:38 I think we’ve already talked about the kind of parallelism as we’ve looked at Psalms and as we’ve looked at some of the Proverbs too. Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? Let’s say it again. Who shall stand in his holy place? And we’ve seen that before. So I like that you said Isaiah’s a poet and he’s not going to talk in a plain precious way. He’s going to wax eloquent. He took humanities Hebrew class instead of business writing.

John Bytheway: 00:23:07 That’s what I tell my students. I had business writing. We had a paper we had to write. He said, “If I find one typo, you get an F.” And it was the whole semester. But we really had to work hard on that. I want you to deny the listener the right to misunderstand, be clear, be concise. And I tell my students Isaiah did not take that class. He took humanities writing. Say it lots of different ways. Say it poetically. Make your meaning hard to understand. Go in and out of past tense, future tense, go everywhere and make people go and have to think about it.

Hank Smith: 00:23:45 But it does, it makes you think, the idea that an animal knows his owner and that the animal knows his way around the house, but Israel doesn’t know. They figured it out.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:23:54 So the real advantage of this for our listeners here is if you are starting into Isaiah for the first time and you read a verse and you don’t understand it, that’s okay. Try reading the next verse or the verse after that.

Hank Smith: 00:24:09 Because he’s probably going to repeat himself.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:24:11 Because he’s going to be repeating it. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:24:14 I’ve told my students before, Jason and John, I’d say, “You and I would say the sun went down. Isaiah wouldn’t say it that way. He’d say the mother of the earth has made our bed in the tops of the mountains. And then he’d say it again. The light of the earth has descended into darkness. If you read carefully, it’s not that difficult.” Those three verses you read, Jason, those aren’t difficult to understand. If you were reading slowly and carefully, you’d be like, “Oh, I get that.”

John Bytheway: 00:24:43 Hank, we’ve talked about Joseph Fielding McConkie on here before. And he changed my life in one sentence once in class. He just said, “We read scriptures too fast.” And seriously, slowing down is huge.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:25:00 Just slow down, especially in Isaiah. That’s one of the tools for the next five weeks. Slow down. And that may mean that you are not going to get through the assigned 12 chapters. But that’s okay. If you’re getting meaning out of Isaiah, that should be your goal.

Hank Smith: 00:25:21 That’s exactly right. That should be our goal, get something out of this, understand the portions that you can cover, understand those.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:25:27 All right. Let’s go onto our next tip. So next tool for understanding Isaiah, Nephi recommends that we know something about, or that his people should know something about the things of the Jews and the regions roundabout Israel, roundabout Jerusalem. And so we can see some examples of how that would be helpful in Isaiah chapter one as well.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:25:49 For instance, take a look at verse 9 and 10. If you don’t know anything, if you’ve never heard of Sodom and Gomorrah, then these passages probably aren’t going to make a whole lot of sense to you. But if you know the story from Genesis about how the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were wicked, and about how those cities were destroyed completely, then suddenly these two verses make a little more sense.

Hank Smith: 00:26:13 Jason, in verses 9 and 10, isn’t this kind of an … I shouldn’t say an insult. But it’s a condemnation. Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom. Give ear under the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah. I mean, he’s basically saying, “You’re as bad as they were.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:26:28 And in verse nine, it’s saying that they almost were destroyed as Sodom and Gomorrah. God allowed the remnant to remain. Otherwise, they would’ve been just like those cities and completely wiped out.

Hank Smith: 00:26:41 I’ve asked my students before, “How many of you know what point of the mountain is?” And they’ll raise their hand. And I’ll say, “How many of you are not from Utah?” And they’ll automatically switch hands, because if you’re from Utah, you know the geography. My students from North Carolina, they’re thinking point of the mountain? That’s the top, right?” “No, no. It’s the far side of the mountain.” “What? Why’d you call it the point of the mountain then?” “Because it’s at the far end.” It just doesn’t make sense to someone who hasn’t been there.

John Bytheway: 00:27:08 Growing up in Salt Lake, it’s also a synonym for prison. Hey, they’re going to send you to point of the mountain.

Hank Smith: 00:27:16 You might not know that. All right. Let’s keep going, Jason.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:27:20 So there are some other examples we could see of that just in chapter one. If you were to look at chapter one verses 11 through 15, that’s all about ancient Israelite worship practices. And if you don’t know anything about how ancient Israelites worshiped, especially their temple practices and their holy days, then it’s not going to make a whole lot of sense to you that God who commanded those worship practices and holy days is now saying he would rather have them not do those things if they’re going to continue to act the way they are. If they’re going to continue to live wickedly, those worship practices are not serving them well.

Hank Smith: 00:27:58 He says bring no more vain oblations, meaningless sacrifices. And if you don’t understand, that’s what they’re supposed to be doing is going to the temple, making these sacrifices. Then you won’t understand that verse. But if you do, that’s quite a condemnation. Don’t come to the temple anymore and bring your meaningless sacrifice.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:28:20 When we get to chapter seven in a few minutes, we’re going to see how important it is to know something about not only geography, but the history, the Syro-Ephraimite War and the Kings who are involved in it.

John Bytheway: 00:28:33 Pekah, son of Remaliah, Rezin.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:28:35 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:28:36 I love it.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:28:37 So all of those things are important. Next tool. So sometimes prophets foretell the future. But mostly, prophets preach God’s word. If we are reading the New Testament, I’d say mostly they preach the gospel. Prophecy can be about the future, but prophecy can also address the present. What I’m saying here is if you’re reading Isaiah expecting everything to be about Isaiah foreseeing the time of Jesus, or Isaiah foreseeing the time of the restoration, then you’re going to miss a lot of what Isaiah’s saying.

Hank Smith: 00:29:16 Because he was talking to his present audience.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:29:19 A modern day example of this would be imagine us attending general conference and listening to every word every prophet and apostle says, trying to find the secret clue in what they’re saying about what’s going to happen right before the second coming of Jesus. Well, most of what they’re saying is not about the second coming of Jesus. Most of what they’re saying is the message we need to hear in our present, in our here and now. And their message is about faith, about repentance, about redemption. And believe it or not, Isaiah’s messages are roughly the same. They’re about faith. They’re about repentance. They’re about redemption. So let’s look at a couple of examples of that still in chapter one.

Hank Smith: 00:30:05 So Jason, you’re telling us to hesitate before we just automatically jump to, “Oh, he’s seeing Jesus here. Oh, he’s seeing the millennium here.” That yeah, he could be, but there is going to be a present day, 700 BC application we need to see.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:30:21 And sometimes we make Isaiah harder for ourselves by looking in every verse for what is the future prophecy. What is the foretelling here? Rather than what is his message about how I should live faithfully? So there are some beautiful passages in here that if you’re only reading it for descriptions of stuff in the future, you’re going to totally miss.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:30:45 Take a look at Isaiah chapter one, verses 16 and 17. Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes. Cease to do evil, learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. A beautiful passage calling upon Israel to turn from their wickedness and to repent.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:31:11 And that’s followed just after by a promise of redemption. Now in verse 18 of chapter one, come now, let us reason together, saith the Lord. Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow. Though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Hank Smith: 00:31:29 There’s the repetition

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:31:30 And again, beautiful, beautiful message of hope, of healing, and one that we would read right over if we are only looking for prophecies about the future.

Hank Smith: 00:31:41 Future events. And especially since he just compared them to Sodom and Gomorrah to now have this promise of you can be clean. Your sins, though they’re dark red, they can be as white as snow. We don’t want to miss that too, that he was telling them like it is. But he’s also offering repentance.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:32:00 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:32:02 I just love when we hear echoes in the Doctrine and Covenants or other scriptures, because look at verse 19. What is it section 64? The Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind and the willing and obedient will eat the good of the land in the latter-days. Look at verse 19, If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land. And I don’t know why the footnote committee didn’t say, “Hey, let’s stick section 64 reference in there.” I think it’s 64, isn’t it?

Hank Smith: 00:32:26 I like it. What do you want to do next, Jason? I like this. Don’t automatically jump to future prophecy. Even if it’s about Jesus, stay in Isaiah’s day, stay in 722 BC.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:32:40 For our last tool, let’s jump to future prophecy, because Isaiah absolutely does talk about the future. And so there are instances of that all over the place. In fact, we’re going to read one in Isaiah seven where he is predicting the future to King Ahaz. So we will see that.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:33:00 When we think about prophecy and fulfillment though, fulfillment of prophecy, I think we need to be really careful because I think we have unnecessarily limited ourselves in our understanding of how prophecy can be fulfilled. Meaning that too often, we think that fulfillment of prophecy works something like this, a prophet, at some point in the past, had a vision, saw the future exactly as it would happen, and when that thing happens exactly in that way, that is fulfillment of a prophecy. That is one type of fulfillment of a prophecy. But there are other ways in which prophecy can be fulfilled.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:33:44 And we’re going to see example of that when we get to Isaiah 7, because of course Matthew talks a lot about prophecies being fulfilled, in the gospel Matthew, in the first two chapters, especially. And so we’ll see that Matthew actually has a whole range of meanings. The word for fulfilled that Matthew uses is the same word that in other places is translated as to fill something, as in to fill a jar, or to fill a room with smoke. It can mean not only to fill up, it can also mean to complete. So something is started in the past and now it is completed. It can mean to complete more fully. So to full fill, to fill up fully.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:34:27 So there’s this variety of meanings for fulfillment. And so that should make us a little hesitant to always assume that prophecy fulfillment means a prophet saw something exactly as it happened, and then it happened in exactly that way. That is one possibility, but it’s not the only one.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:34:46 So here’s the tool. When you’re reading Isaiah, when you’re thinking about prophecy fulfillment, Nephi, when he is explaining the meaning of these Isaiah chapters to his people, before he ever starts, he uses the word likening to describe what he’s going to do, back in 2 Nephi 11. Another word he uses in that same chapter is typifying. He talks about how things in the past can be a type of things in the future.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:35:15 And when you’re likening something, you’re comparing one thing that’s not the same as another thing, to that other thing. You’re comparing two different things. So Nephi likens Isaiah to his people. So when Nephi gives us an explanation of what these chapters mean, it’s important to keep an open mind and realize that Nephi is not providing the end all explanation of what Isaiah means. There may be additional future fulfillments that work in other ways, other than the way Nephi describes the fulfillment of Isaiah for his people in his time.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:35:53 Jesus said it much better than I did. But let me tell you how Jesus said it. This is in 3 Nephi chapter 23, verses 1-3. Here’s what Jesus says as he’s describing the importance of us searching the writings of Isaiah. He says, “And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.” Let me pause there. Notice that whole searching diligently thing? I think that goes back to what John was saying earlier that he learned from Joseph Fielding McConkie.

Hank Smith: 00:36:31 Slow down.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:36:34 A speed read is not diligent. So we need to search these things diligently for great are the words of Isaiah. Jesus continues here, “For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel.” That’s another clue to reading Isaiah. We should be reading it as a description of God’s people, the House of Israel. “Therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.” And I think I’ll leave whoever’s going to talk with you about the final chapters in the book of Isaiah to talk about that, because that’s when Isaiah really turns to talking about the importance of Gentiles.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:37:09 But here’s Jesus’ final point that I think is so important for understanding prophecy in Isaiah. And all things that he, Isaiah, spake have been and shall be, even according to the words which he spake. Notice that Jesus doesn’t say some of the things that Isaiah said have been, and other things that Isaiah said shall be. He doesn’t say that. He said all things that Isaiah said have been and shall be. In other words, everything we’re reading in Isaiah refers to Isaiah’s time, refers to things in the past, and refers to things in the future. So Elder Uchtdorf has this great quote about how prophets speak to people in their time, but their voices echo through time.

Hank Smith: 00:37:53 I have that right here, Jason. I’m glad you brought that up. This is March, 2012 Ensign. “Prophets speak not only to the people of their time, but they also speak to people throughout all time. Their voices echo through the centuries as a Testament of God’s will to his children.” That is good. Their voices echo.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:38:15 So I think that’s one way of thinking about how Isaiah’s prophecies work. They’re addressed to people in his time, and yet they echo through time. And in those echoes, we can find new meaning. Let’s just take an example. Isaiah chapter two, we’re finally out of Isaiah one, Isaiah chapter two, right at the beginning, verses two and three. So this is a new prophecy. Chapter two introduces it as a new prophecy here.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:38:41 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. Verses two and three here, and it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains. Right away we know this is a future prophecy because he tells us. This is about the last days. The mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the tops of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, “Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, and he will teach us of his ways and we will walk in his paths, for out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:39:22 Now I think we love that passage because of course the church headquarters is in a place surrounded by mountains. And certainly modern day prophets have seen certain events that happen here in Utah as fulfillment or partial fulfillment of this prophecy. I’m thinking right now of Elder Robert D. Hales. He gave a talk back in April, 2002, general conference. This was around the time of the Olympics. And here’s what he said, “Isaiah, a great prophet of the Old Testament prophecies, and it shall come to pass in the last days at the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the tops of the mountains.” This is the prophecy we just read. And all nations shall flow onto it.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:40:06 He then continues, “As Salt Lake has hosted the 2002 Winter Olympics and Paralympic Games, we have seen a partial fulfillment of many prophecies. The nations of the earth, and many of their leaders, have come, and have seen us serving alongside our friends in this community and our neighbors of other faiths. And they have seen the light in our eyes, and felt the clasp of our hands. The mountain of the house of the Lord with its brightly lit spires has been witnessed by 3.5 billion people around the world.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:40:39 So I think Elder Hales gives a wonderful example of how we can see partial fulfillments or echoes of Isaiah’s words resonating through time. I think Elder Hales does well using the term partial fulfillment there to make it clear that is not the fulfillment. It’s only a partial one. I have another example that we can look at the end of Isaiah five, a passage that we often assume means only one thing because of a quote from Elder LeGrand Richards, but likely has a broader meaning.

John Bytheway: 00:41:12 Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote a book called A New Witness For The Articles Of Faith. And speaking of these opening verses of Isaiah two, he said, “This has specific reference to the Salt Lake temple and to other temples built in the top of the Rocky Mountains. And it has a general reference to the temple yet to be built in the new Jerusalem in Jackson County, Missouri. Those in all nations be it noted shall flow to the houses of the Lord in the tops of the mountains there to make covenants out of which eternal life comes.” So there’s a specific reference, but a general reference, it sounds like, to all temples, because a nickname for a temple is mountain of the Lord.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:41:54 And Elder Hales does something similar when he refers to this as a partial fulfillment. He’s not saying this is the end all. This is the only thing that Isaiah saw and talked about. He’s saying this is a partial fulfillment. So back to Elder Uchtdorf’s concept of the words of prophets echoing through times, I think we can see this as one of those echoes.

Hank Smith: 00:42:14 I like this approach. It’s a safe way of not saying, “Here, I know exactly what Isaiah saw.” It’s he saw things like this. I like that.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:42:23 And remembering the quote we read from Jesus in 3 Nephi, that the things of Isaiah have been and shall be, should function as a caution to us, not to assume that we have the end all interpretation, that it can refer to things in Isaiah’s time and to future things. And we can certainly see how it echoes in our own day.

John Bytheway: 00:42:45 When I teach Isaiah, I like to use four C words. I’m going to add. I’m going to have five. Now one of them is Combs. But I have four C words. So I joke. I looked out the window and what did I see? Four kinds of trees that all begin with C. I talk about Isaiah as a forest. And sometimes we don’t see the forest for the trees.

John Bytheway: 00:43:08 But the four C words are covenants, covenant Israel, Christ, which Isaiah doesn’t use the word Christ, but he talks about the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah, and then current events to Isaiah’s day and coming events. And sometimes the current events foreshadow coming events. But sometimes the current events are just current events. And there are dual and sometimes it even looks like multiple fulfillments of those.

John Bytheway: 00:43:34 So I like what you’re saying. Don’t say that’s the fulfillment right there. No, it could be there’s an echo, as President Uchtdorf put it. And we don’t limit it. We think there could be … He’s going to be talking to Hezekiah’s people, but it applies to us too. So a current event might foreshadow a coming event, or it might just be a current event to his day.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:43:57 That’s right. And I think there’s an example of an instance where we have limited the meaning of Isaiah, where we have thought we know the interpretation. It comes at the end of Isaiah chapter five. So we’re skipping a bit ahead now. But end of Isaiah five, verses 26 through 30, Isaiah gives us this description that begins in verse 26 by lifting up an ensign to nations from afar.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:44:24 And then as we skip down into the verses, by verse 28, it’s describing these nations coming in a way that using language of arrows and bows and horses hoofs counted like flint. I’ll just read the verse as is. Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind. Continuing on to verse 29. Their roaring shall be like a lion, and they’ll roar like a young lion. And it continues to describe this roar a little bit more.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:44:59 And I think we’ve limited ourselves by choosing one thing that Elder LeGrand Richards once said about this passage, and that not a whole lot of people have said about it since, and said this is the only meaning. Here’s the quote from Elder LeGrand Richards. He says, “Since there were no such things as trains and airplanes in that day, Isaiah could hardly have mentioned them by name. But he seems to have described them in unmistakable words. How better could their horses’ hoofs be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind than in the modern train? How better could their roaring be like a lion than in the roar of an airplane?”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:45:45 And so I think with quotations like that, we’ve limited ourselves and said, “Oh! Well, this must be describing latter-day gathering of Israel. It’s missionaries going forth in planes and trains. And that is what this prophecy is about.” And because Elder LeGrand Richards said it and we revere him as an apostle, I think sometimes we assume that must mean that this is his prophetic interpretation.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:46:11 But the truth is Elder LeGrand Richards is not the only one who said that. In fact, after World War I, a lot of Americans turned to Isaiah and other parts of the Bible trying to make sense of the great war, and found in the writings of Isaiah prophecies that they thought were about airplanes, airplanes specifically involved in attacks during World War I. So that was a common Christian interpretation that made it into books like William Barnes’ Business in the Bible, later in Wilson’s Dictionary of Bible Types published in 1957. The Barnes’ Business in the Bible, that’s in 1926.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:46:54 So already both those books are saying that Isaiah 5:26-30 is about airplanes. And the idea about it being about trains, that goes back even earlier. Elder Matthias Cowley, in his talks on doctrine, his chapter on gathering of Israel, talks about Isaiah five as gathering of Israel by means of trains. But he seems to be getting that from people who were writing in the late 1800s at the time when railway tracks stretching across all the countries of the earth and other Christians are also speculating that this has to do with the gathering of Israel. As one particular train track was getting closer and closer to the land of Israel, they’re speculating this will have to do with the gathering of Israel.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:47:36 And so there are some common Christian interpretations that we have sort of inherited. And then because a prophet or apostle repeated them, we think, “Oh! Well, it must be a prophecy by a Latter-day prophet and apostle.” And then we have then limited ourselves and said, “This must be the only meaning of Isaiah chapter five.”

Hank Smith: 00:47:55 Excellent. Jason, when I read this, knowing the history now like I do, I think to myself, “Here comes Assyria to take over, or here comes Babylon to take over.” So we’re not saying that Elder Richards is wrong here. We’re just saying that don’t limit it to just that single interpretation.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:48:13 There’s certainly a way that we can see Isaiah’s words echoing in our time, and read this, especially with words like ensign to the nations that we have in the Doctrine and Covenants as a call to the gathering of Israel. And so when we read this within the larger context of our standard works, absolutely, we can read into this, a story about us going forth and serving as missionaries.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:48:39 But in Isaiah’s time, in its original context, it likely has to do with the war, and people coming with horses and chariots, their wheels spinning like a whirlwind and their arrows and bows ready to attack. And so it seems to describe that. And in fact, the end of Isaiah five here is describing war and destruction as a punishment for them neglecting the poor. If you go back a little bit, all of these Isaiah two through five are all about the sins of Israel and Judah at this time, and how they’ve neglected the poor.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:49:19 Take a look at verse 14 and 15. And that war is part of the judgment for how they have mistreated people. Isaiah 3:14 and 15. The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof, for ye have eaten up the vineyard and the spoil of the poor is in your houses. What mean ye that you beat my people to pieces and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord God of hosts.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:49:49 And that’s a message that absolutely should resonate with us today as well. Elder Holland gave a great talk back in 2014 titled Are We Not All Beggars where he quotes this very passage and says down through history, poverty has been one of humankind’s greatest and most widespread challenges. It’s obvious toll is usually physical, but the spiritual and emotional damage it can bring may be even more debilitating. In any case, the great Redeemer has issued no more persistent call than for us to join him in lifting this burden from the people. As Jehovah, he said he would judge the house of Israel harshly because, “The spoil of the needy is in your houses. What mean ye?” He cried, “That ye beat my people to pieces and grind the faces of the poor.” That’s another way in which the prophet Isaiah’s words echo through time. They are a message to us today that the same sins of the house of Israel-

Hank Smith: 00:50:51 We may be guilty of.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:50:51 Are repeating, and that we need to be aware of.

Hank Smith: 00:50:54 If we don’t realize that this, the end of chapter five, could be about a destruction that comes when you don’t care for the poor, we’ve missed that entirely, because we’re thinking, “Oh! This is about the gathering.” So which goes back to that tool you gave us to not automatically jump to some future event that Isaiah is very likely talking about something that’s happening in his, what’d you call it John, his current day?

John Bytheway: 00:51:16 Current event or a coming event.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:51:20 So the tools we’ve talked about are knowing something about the manner of prophesying. So recognize that Isaiah’s poetic. So expect imagery, simile, metaphor, expect repetition. Second tip, expect Isaiah to talk about the things of the Jews. That is the things of the people of Judah, the southern kingdom. And to know something about the regions roundabout. So know something about the history of all of that.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:51:50 The third tool was expect Isaiah to preach. So expect him to talk about faith and repentance and redemption and healing. All those things are part of Isaiah’s message. And then the fourth one was when Isaiah does foretell the future, expect multiple fulfillments and don’t limit yourself in saying this only has one meaning, the meaning to us today.

Hank Smith: 00:52:14 This is fantastic. I’ve got my toolbox open, and you’ve given me some great examples. What chapter do you want to do next?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:52:21 Why don’t we move on to chapter six? Chapter six is Isaiah’s call as prophet. Let’s just start reading right at the beginning in Isaiah chapter six, verse one, so we have the setting and then we can talk a little about what’s going on here. It starts by introducing us to the time and place that this is happening.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:52:43 And in the year that King Uzziah died, that’s right around 740 BC. So we’re still just under 20 years away from Assyria capturing the northern kingdom. So in the year that King Uzziah died, I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. There’s our setting. Everything he’s going to describe here is going to sound like the temple.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:53:10 Some have speculated that maybe Isaiah was a priest because he describes the temple. I don’t think that’s necessary. And I don’t think everybody accepts that because remember that the temple is a mirror of a heavenly temple. That’s how ancient Israel understood it. When it’s describing God in his house, in his temple, it very well could be a vision of heaven as well.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:53:36 His train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims, each had six wings, with twain, he covered his face, with twain, he covered his feet, and with twain, he did fly. And one cried unto another and said, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory.” And the post of the door moved at the voice of him that cried and the house was filled with smoke. Then I said, “Woe is me.” Now here’s Isaiah speaking. Then I, Isaiah, said, “Woe is me for I am undone because I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips, for mine eyes have seen the king, the Lord of hosts.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:54:19 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar. So this is the altar of incense that is right before the Holy of Holies. That’s what we’re supposed to be imagining here. And the smoke going up from the coals on the altar. So one of these seraphims have now taken the coal off this incense alter. Having the live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from off the altar, onto verse seven, he laid it upon my mouth, and said, “Lo, this hath touched thy lips, thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:54:56 And I also heard the voice of Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I, send me.” So this is a description of this vision Isaiah has. It’s similar to visions that other prophets have had, both in the Book of Mormon, we can think of Lehi’s vision right at the beginning of the Book of Mormon, in first Nephi chapter one, as well as other prophets in the Old Testament.

Hank Smith: 00:55:22 Jason, I’m going to use some of the tools you gave me here. I’m going to go slow. I see some repetition. Holy, holy, holy, three times, the emphasis there. When he says he saw the Lord with a train that filled the temple, what would train be?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:55:40 This is his clothing, his robes.

Hank Smith: 00:55:42 And maybe his clothes represent his power, his authority in his following?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:55:49 And oftentimes in these visions, prophets describe gods as being larger than life. That is one way to describe magnificence. One way to describe grandeur or glory is to describe that in terms of height or size. And so gods are often described as being enormous. I say gods because I’m talking not only in Israelite tradition, but even if you were to imagine in Greek tradition or Roman tradition, much later. Gods are described as being giants. And that is one way to describe their magnificence, their power. And so this is describing God as larger than life, as we would say it.

Hank Smith: 00:56:28 Tell me, a seraphim, is that an angel?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:56:30 Yeah, that’s an angel. So there are these different angelic beings we encounter in the Old Testament. We sometimes encounter the Cherubim and other times the seraphim. And we don’t really know a lot about these creatures because we don’t get much of a description other than things like this that describe them as having multiple wings. So we can look to other ancient Near Eastern traditions to try and get an idea. We might think of something like how in Egyptian tradition, there’s the Sphinx that guards the way, and it’s got the face of a lion and these wings. There are these guardian creatures that are God’s guard dog, might be a way of thinking of it, that’s protecting the sanctuary, protecting the holiness of the sanctuary.

Hank Smith: 00:57:19 It sounds like these angels have assignments. They’re talking with one another. And when Isaiah feels unclean, one of them comes to him and fixes his unclean lips by burning them off, which sounds like kind of a painful experience.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:57:33 Which sounds horrifying.

John Bytheway: 00:57:35 I enjoy noticing that for whatever reason, the King James translators added an S to a word that was already plural, the seraphims. So it’s really fun to notice in the Book of Mormon, when you go to second Nephi 16, it just says seraphim. But here, it’s seraphims, which is like saying geeses. And for our listeners, it’s kind of fun to know that if you see an I-M at the end of a word, it makes it plural like Cherubim, like seraphim, like Urim and Thummim are plural, which is kind of fun. The Book of Mormon reference companion says that the word seraphim was translated from a Hebrew word that means burning ones.

Hank Smith: 00:58:21 Interesting.

John Bytheway: 00:58:22 They’re bright and glorious, whoever they are.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:58:25 Yeah, exactly. That’s another way to describe glory. We just talked a minute ago about how height or size is one way to describe grandeur and glory. Light or fire is another way that’s used frequently to describe that.

Hank Smith: 00:58:38 Then as you read that section of Isaiah, am I supposed to pick up on Isaiah feels unworthy? He says, “I am a man of unclean lips. I am undone. I don’t deserve to be here maybe.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:58:49 Which is so common a reaction in the face of the glory of God. We can think time and again of prophets having that experience, and feeling unworthy.

Hank Smith: 00:59:00 Let’s see if I’m getting this right. I’m using the tools you gave me. Am I supposed to see kind of a symbolic way of his repentance in this live coal going on his mouth?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:59:09 Right. So fire can be used to purge things to clean them. And so that seems to be the imagery that is being used here, that the fire is burning away the iniquity of his mouth, or transforming his mouth into something that now can speak on behalf of God.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:59:31 Let me give you an example of how this passage, everything we just read from Isaiah 6:1 down to 6:8, was read by some ancient Christians. Your listeners are getting a preview here. This is the first time this has been heard publicly. This comes from that book I mentioned at the beginning.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:59:48 This from ancient Christians, an introduction for Latter-day Saints. This comes from Mark Ellison’s chapter. His chapter is titled Connecting with Christ, Rituals and Worship. And he talks about ancient Christian worship. He has a box in this chapter titled a personal reflection on ancient Christian ritual and Latter-day Saint worship.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:00:10 And he begins this box in this chapter with a quotation of this passage from Isaiah. And then he goes on and says this, and I absolutely love this. He says, “In the fourth century, some Christians were comparing the Eucharist, that’s the sacrament, the sacrament bread to the coal that the seraph touched to Isaiah’s cleaned lips with the word, “This has touched your lips. Your iniquity is taken away and your sin is purged. By the sixth century, liturgies made frequent reference to the details in Isaiah six.” Liturgy is a fancy term that means sort of the practices of the worship service. So what happens in a sacrament meeting service? What is step one? What is step two? That’s a liturgy.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:00:58 By the sixth century, liturgies made frequent reference to the details in Isaiah six, and liturgical vessels and spaces were decorated with images of the seraphim and cherubim that surrounded God’s throne. These ritual elements encouraged worshipers to imagine themselves in the role of Isaiah approaching the throne of God as they approached the church altar, receiving forgiveness and purification anew through the Eucharist, again that’s the sacrament, and being transformed into people who could like Isaiah go forth with newfound confidence to bear testimony of God’s word to the world.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:01:36 Then after that, Mark shares a personal reflection on this. And I’ll just read the end of his reflection. He says, “As I sit in my relatively simple Latter-day Saint sacrament meeting, and take the small piece of bread, I feel led to recall the angelic words. This has touched your lips, your iniquity is taken away and your sin purged. I think of the many ways the Lord has changed my life. And as I consider the good that God wants me to do in the world, I feel myself renewed to say in my heart, “Here, my Lord, send me.”” I just think that’s beautiful. And it goes to show some of the beautiful insights we can gain from our ancient Christian brothers and sisters who also read these texts and reflected on what they mean to them in their time.

Hank Smith: 01:02:25 So they saw the sacrament here, the Lord saying, “I can take those unclean lips of yours, and I can transform them into the lips that give powerful messages,” which Isaiah does. He ends up giving for the rest of his life. That’s fantastic.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:02:41 Isn’t that beautiful?

Hank Smith: 01:02:42 We’ll bring Mark on for our New Testament year, for sure.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:02:45 Yeah, absolutely.

Hank Smith: 01:02:47 I like when Isaiah gets his calling, and go and tell the people. And he asks what I usually ask when I get a calling, “How long is this going to be?” Verse 11. “Lord, how long?” And the response he gets is usually different than the one I got. Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant and the houses without man and the land be utterly desolate. Can you imagine that’s going to be the end of your calling?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:03:10 It’s worth spending some time on that part because Isaiah’s mission is so unlike the missions that we receive today, when you actually look at what he is asked to teach. Let’s take a look at that real quick. So Isaiah says, “Here am I, send me.” And then in verse nine, God says, “Go and tell this people, hear ye indeed, but understand not, see ye indeed, but perceive not.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:03:35 And Isaiah has to be thinking, “What? What kind of mission is that where I go and teach the people so that they won’t understand? That makes no sense at all.” And it continues in verse 10, make the heart of this people fat, make their ears heavy, and their eyes shut, lest they see with their eyes and hear what their ears and understand what their heart and convert and be healed. “Wait, what? You want me to teach so that they won’t convert and be healed? That makes no sense.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:04:03 And so Isaiah asked the question that … Isaiah is a little less forward than I think I am being right now in saying, “Why would you even ask me that Lord?” Isaiah instead just asks, “How long do I have to teach the people in a way that they won’t understand? Certainly that can’t be the end goal, heavenly father. Certainly there must be some other plan in place here.” And then God’s response, of course, is not very hopeful. Until cities be wasted without inhabitant. And until the Lord has removed men far away. There will be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. This is a very different kind of call.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:04:44 One way that we might make sense of it is just by saying that the people must have been in a state where they weren’t ready to hear the message. And so they would’ve been condemned further for the message. And so Isaiah is preaching to the people in that time in a way that they won’t understand, but later on, we will see or later people in that time will see that the message was delivered and that people didn’t understand.

John Bytheway: 01:05:09 So I love verse 10 right there.

Hank Smith: 01:05:12 Is that, do you think, a reference to the scattering that’s coming?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:05:15 Absolutely. And just to give an example of what we’ve been talking about from the beginning, the way that a prophet’s words can echo, I think that this prophet’s words also echo in the Book of Mormon. This passage of course is quoted in the Book of Mormon as well.

John Bytheway: 01:05:30 Second Nephi 16. Just add 10 and you get the Book of Mormon chapter.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:05:36 And so I wrote an article a couple of years ago that was published in The Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, where I suggested that Mormon read this passage as fulfilled in the history of the Nephites. If you look later on in the Book of Mormon, if you look at third Nephi 11, we have a time when there is a great desolation in the land, a desolation that seems to match the sort of desolation that God tells Isaiah, “This is what’s going to happen.” When Isaiah says, “How long?” And he says, “There’s going to be a great wasting and great desolation.” It matches that.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:06:12 And then just as Isaiah was told, “Make the heart of this people fat, make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears and understand with their hearts and convert and be healed.” Well, what happens right after that desolation in the land that happens at the time of Christ’s crucifixion? Well, Christ is resurrected. And then he comes to the Nephites.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:06:33 And right at the beginning of third Nephi 11, and again, this is third Nephi 11, verses five and six. And again, the third time they did hear the voice and they did open their ears to hear it. And their eyes were toward the sound thereof and they did looks steadfastly towards heaven whence the sound came, and behold the third time they did understand the voice they heard. And then what happens next? Christ appears where he heals them. So I think Mormon intentionally wove into his description of what happened among the Nephites in that time the language of Isaiah to suggest one of the ways in which Isaiah is echoing in that time.

John Bytheway: 01:07:19 I love it.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:07:19 That was verses five and six. So it’s a reversal in a sense of what Isaiah was commanded to do. Now, their ears do hear. Their eyes are open and fixed on the sight. And now they understand and are converted and healed.

John Bytheway: 01:07:33 The idea of the prophet making their ears stopped up and the prophet making, it doesn’t feel right to me. It feels like he was telling them that’s where they were. And in third Nephi, they did open their ears. They did something differently. They focused a little more, or did something on their part that allowed them to hear the Lord differently. Makes more sense to me that it’s something they had to do to open their ears to hear it.

Hank Smith: 01:08:03 This entire chapter of Isaiah chapter six, there’s a message here, to me personally, of you might see yourself one way. Isaiah says, “Woe is me. I am undone. I am a man of unclean lips. I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips.” And then the Lord sees something else. The Lord sees a prophet that is going to go and preach.

Hank Smith: 01:08:26 This is Joseph B. Wirthlin, October, 2007. “We see ourselves in terms of yesterday and today. That’s how we see. We look in the mirror. We see ourselves in terms of yesterday and today. Our heavenly father sees us in terms of forever. Although we might settle for less, heavenly father won’t, for he sees us as the glorious beings we are capable of becoming.”

Hank Smith: 01:08:50 And then you mentioned this, Jason. You said this live coal is this transforming power. Listen to Elder Wirthlin here. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of transformation. It takes us, as men and women of the earth, and refines us into the men and women for the eternities. Do you feel like that could be a message I get from Isaiah six?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:09:12 Isaiah is transformed in this experience and prepared for a very difficult mission.

Hank Smith: 01:09:18 Is it safe to say that I can apply this to myself here, Jason? I mean, I’m on safe ground here to say, “The Lord can transform me for my mission.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:09:26 And I love the connection Mark Ellison made with the sacrament. The sacrament itself can be a transformative power in our lives as we participate in that ordinance sincerely with the attitude Isaiah has, as of, “Here am I, send me.” And of recognizing his own unworthiness, his own lack of preparation and being open to the Lord to transform him to make him ready for that.

Hank Smith: 01:09:50 And just to anyone listening, wouldn’t you want to say, John, something like God has a work for you, and that he can transform you. And you might not see you in the way he does, but he sees you as the glorious being you are capable of becoming.

John Bytheway: 01:10:06 The new Aaronic priesthood theme that uses that phrase that I guess Moroni used with Joseph Smith that I am a beloved son of God, and he has a work for me to do. Not just coming here and see if you can endure to the end, and try to go to church on Sunday. But that he’s got a work for you to do. There’s a reason you’re here.

John Bytheway: 01:10:24 And that reminds me of the verse eight, I feel like, verse nine, because it sounds like Isaiah is echoing another episode in the premortal existence. Here am I, send me. And I feel like we also said, “Here am I, send me,” in the premortal existence. And now we have opportunities on earth. Whenever we are given a calling that makes us feel undone and makes us feel like we can’t do it to voice our own, “I’ll do my best. Here I am, send me. But I’m undone. I’m falling apart. But here am I, send me. I’ll try.”

Hank Smith: 01:10:59 That’s awesome. That, combined with the sacrament, this could be a life changing chapter where you might skip it. It’s Isaiah. It’s Isaiah. I won’t understand this.

John Bytheway: 01:11:07 And I feel like it’s tough because we get to the end and it’s that this isn’t going to be easy. And how long? That’s another thing I love to talk about is the how long. Who else said how long in our standard works? Joseph Smith, Liberty Jail, Alma Amulek in prison. I think Job says how long. It’s not doubting that God lives. It’s just how long do I have to go through this type of a thing?

John Bytheway: 01:11:37 So here he’s saying how long and the answer’s not that positive. Until the land is wasted and everything’s … So have a nice mission, Isaiah. And then finally that only kind of positive note there is verse 13. I mean, Jason, what do you see in 13 there? That’s much more positive.

John Bytheway: 01:11:58 I’m curious to the teil and the oak, our friend and colleague Terry Ball, who is an archaeobotanist, how many archaeobotanists do you know? He said that the oak and the teil tree can have their leaves eaten off, and even be chopped down, but they’ll regenerate because the sap or the substance is still in them, which it says, “They can that cast their leaves, but a remnant will return because the substance is still in there.” I think that’s pretty cool.

Hank Smith: 01:12:28 So when he says the whole house is filled with smoke, you feel like smoke in the temple, the ancient temple, was that the presence of God?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:12:35 So it was traditional to put incense on that incense altar to fill the house with smoke before entering into the Holy of Holies, the most holy place, so that you are protected from the glory of the Lord in a sense. So I think it can be both symbolic of glory, cloud by day, pillar fire by night, but also in practice serve as a shield.

John Bytheway: 01:13:00 And I think too it helps us remember that Sinai shook and smoked when God was there. It’s kind of this presence of the Lord type reference of what happened on Sinai, it’s happening here. God is here.

Hank Smith: 01:13:13 Chapter six to me can be one that a gospel doctrine teacher can really focus in on and have a great experience.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:13:20 Yeah. There’s so much in there.

John Bytheway: 01:13:22 And Jason, you talked about this. Here’s a prophet receives his call starting by having a theophany by seeing God.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:13:29 Yeah. It’s certainly something that we see, not only in the Bible with other prophetic calls, but in the Book of Mormon as well.

John Bytheway: 01:13:36 Why isn’t this chapter the first chapter of Isaiah when he receives his call?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:13:40 That’s a good question. There’s some debate about that. As I mentioned earlier, some think that Isaiah’s disciples are the ones that organized the book, and therefore chose to organize it by theme rather than chronologically. So that could explain it. This is really what we’d expect to be chapter one, because this is the call.

John Bytheway: 01:14:00 Well, Robert J. Matthews said Isaiah’s not a continuous story. He said it’s like he took all of President Monson’s talks and mixed them up and just stuck them in a book. But they’re not chronological, in that Isaiah’s prophecies are that way.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:14:14 And certainly we have modern parallels to this. For years, our Priesthood, Relief Society manuals were teachings of the prophets. And every year, we’d get a new prophet. And if you open up those manuals, it took the words of prophets given in different sermons at different times and sort of mix them up and organized them by theme. We’d have a theme of faith, and we’d get everything that prophet said about faith. And we’d move on from there.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:14:40 So we just reviewed the collection of Isaiah’s teachings of his warnings against Israel concerning their pride, concerning their oppression of the poor and the warning of devastation. Now we just read Isaiah’s call, and in chapter seven, we’re about to get into the beginning of Isaiah’s message during Syro-Ephraimite War.

John Bytheway: 01:15:03 Please join us for part two of this podcast.