Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to FollowHIM. A weekly podcast, dedicated to helping individuals and families with their come follow me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together, we follow him.

Hank Smith: 00:00:20 Hello, my friends, welcome to another episode of FollowHIM. My name is Hank Smith, I am your host. I am here with my co-host the four score years old, John Bytheway. John, have you read the book of Exodus chapter 7? It says that Moses was four score years old. So I figured maybe that would be a compliment to Moses. Do you feel complimented?

John Bytheway: 00:00:43 Yeah, what is this score again?

Hank Smith: 00:00:44 It’s a four score years old. It’s 28 points. Yeah, touchdown time. John, we are studying Exodus 7 through 13 today. A lot of chapters in Exodus. We needed a brilliant mind and we got one. Tell everybody who’s with us.

John Bytheway: 00:01:03 We have Dr. Andrew Skinner with us today and so excited to have him. I have so many books of his on my shelf. One of my favorites of all time is this Gethsemane book that he wrote, which I use in New Testament class sometimes. But our audience probably would love to know there’s a two volume Verse By Verse commentary on the Old Testament written by Dr. Ogden and Dr. Skinner. I’m going to use the bio that’s here. Andrew C Skinner is a professor of ancient scripture New Eastern studies. A Richard L. Evans professor of religious understanding of BYU, where he served as the Dean of Religious Education. Is the first executive director of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship. A member of the International Editorial Group that translated the Dead Sea Scrolls. How cool is this? An author or co-author of more than 200 articles and books on religious and historical topics. Dr. Skinner taught at the BYU Jerusalem Center and was its associate director. He has served in the church as a bishop, a counselor in a district presidency in Israel. A member of the Correlation Evaluation committee and a member of the Sunday School general board. He and his wife, Janet Corbridge Skinner are the parents of six children and have 10 grandchildren.

John Bytheway: 00:02:20 We call him Andy because we’ve known him for years and we just love this man and what he’s contributed. Brother Skinner thank you for being with us today.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:02:30 Well, thank you. Thanks for your hospitality. It’s a great privilege.

Hank Smith: 00:02:34 John, you probably know this but BYU religious education has a YouTube channel. I think Dr. Skinner is maybe the star of that YouTube channel. He probably doesn’t even know it but he is. I think almost every other video. Let’s jump in, Exodus, chapter 7.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:02:53 We really need to go back to chapter six or even the very end of chapter five, to understand the nature of the signs and wonders that the Lord will bring to Pharaoh, King of Egypt. But before we do that, could I make just a couple of introductory comments about this section?

Hank Smith: 00:03:09 Please do.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:03:10 In graduate school we call it a pericope. It’s spelled pericope but if you want to sound really intelligent in theological circles, you can use the word pericope. The pericope, Exodus 7 through 13 is really the story of Israel’s deliverance and the institution of the Passover commemoration. I guess the first point to make is that it would be hard to overstate the importance of this section of scripture. Not just for the Old Testament but for all of scripture. Exodus 7 through 13 is the core of the Exodus story, which as our listeners will know reverberates throughout all of scripture. In the Old Testament, in the New Testament, in the Book of Mormon. In fact, this central event in the lives of the Israelites is a core event along with a couple of others.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:04:08 When you think about how the story of the Exodus has influenced the lives of Israelites today, namely our Jewish brothers and sisters, we come to appreciate the fact that this really is one of the key events in all of scripture. Has had such a significant impact on Israel, on who they are, on whose they are. Their relationship to Jehovah, on Jehovah’s power to bring about his purposes. So again, to reiterate, it would be hard to overstate the importance of Exodus. It’s huge in terms of the influence that it’s had on scripture, the standard works, not just the Bible.

Hank Smith: 00:04:49 In section eight, in the Doctrine and Covenants, this is the spirit of revelation. This is the spirit which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:04:59 Yeah and it’s assumed that you and understand that, it’s assumed that that story. It is so prominent and powerful. Consider for a minute, how many times the Exodus story is recounted every year at springtime around the world. By our Jewish brothers and sisters, by Jewish families, as they participate in the Passover meal, which is also called the Seder meal. Seder is a Semitic word, a Hebrew/Aramaic word that means ordered or arranged. When you look at the preparations that go into a Passover meal, that’s literally true. It is one of the most scripted of all of the commemorations of celebrations in the Jewish liturgical calendar. That’s one point. A second point is to emphasize Exodus 7 through 13 is a foundational, if not the foundational story of deliverance in the Old Testament. It’s the prototypical story of divine deliverance. It serves as the foundation for the kind of deliverance that we see in the atonement of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:06:09 If I can maybe just emphasize that the Passover that we’re going to be looking at today is one of two unparalleled occurrences of deliverance, both performed by Jesus Christ. The deliverance in Exodus 7 through 13 is performed by the premortal Christ, who is Jehovah. Jesus was God before he came to this earth. So that significant act of deliverance as a core, if not the core event of the Pentateuch. Then, of course, the deliverance provided by Jesus Christ in his atoning sacrifice. But interestingly enough, the Passover meal was the foundation of the institution of the sacrament of the Lord’s supper. Jesus as a good, Jewish covenant Israelite, kept the Passover every year as was required. That last night of Jesus’s mortal life, then we see that the evening begins as a Passover or a Seder meal. But by the end of the time that the apostles leave the upper room with Jesus, that Passover meal has been transformed into the sacrament of the Lord’s supper. The universe is never the same in again.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:07:39 So that’s a second point that I would like to make before we dive into the actual text. Then a third point if you wanted to pick a passage in the Old Testament that foreshadows the atonement of Jesus Christ, just a single passage. I think you’d have to go to Exodus Chapter 12 and that’s part of our discussion today. The symbolism in Exodus Chapter 12, pointing to the future Jesus Christ seems to me to be without parallel in many ways in the Old Testament. As a single episode in the story of salvation history, Exodus Chapter 12 is hard to beat. So thank you for indulging me but I think it’s important that we understand ahead of time what we’re looking at today in these few chapters. Just the core of deliverance in the Old Testament and the foundation of deliverance by Jesus Christ. We’ll talk more about the symbolism specifically in Exodus Chapter 12. But this really is pretty significant.

Hank Smith: 00:08:53 Andy, so as our listeners are going into this, they should be kind of in the back of their minds have, obviously, the Savior’s atoning sacrifice in the back of their mind as they read about this story. Also, their own maybe sacrament experience that they have every Sunday. If we were to keep those at the back of our mind, we’d probably get more out of this.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:09:12 I think you were absolutely right. This provides a spring board for our own personal devotions, that center on the sacrament every week. We think about Passover in the springtime of the year but it’s a one time event per year. But we think about the sacrament, it is, as far as I understand, the ordinance that we get to participate in for ourselves. Not have to be a proxy for somebody else, all the other ordinances, especially temple ordinances. When we go to the temple, we do it one time for ourselves and then we become proxies further. Not so with the ordinance of the sacrament and it happens every week, which is an amazing reflection of our father in heaven’s love for us. The Savior’s, not just weekly concern but daily continual concern for members of covenant Israel. So you’re absolutely right. It provides the springboard for our reflections on deliverance, on substitutionary atonement, on the love of God that’s demonstrated in the salvation history of covenant Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:10:29 I love that, this idea that we worship God with all of our heart, mind, and strength. So as we’re listening, let’s not just engage our mind but let’s engage our hearts here. This is information that we can learn, we can worship God with our mind. But we also just need to be feeling and thinking how can I use this? If you have a sense of the Passover, your sacrament experience really does become better.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:10:53 Let’s start at the end of chapter five of Exodus for some background information. The end of chapter five, we understand that Moses and Aaron have been to Pharaoh already. The word Pharaoh is an Egyptian word Pharaoh, which literally means great house, signifying the royal palace. It’s the great house where the great man lives in. So that’s the connection between the Egyptian word and Pharaoh himself. Of course, Moses and Aaron have asked Pharaoh to let God’s people go into the wilderness, so that they can worship God. In chapter five, verses 22 and 23 we see that Moses returns to the Lord because Pharaoh has rebuffed them quite significantly. In fact, he has made life even more difficult for the Israelites that are in bondage. So Moses and understand that Moses is one of the greatest men who has ever lived on the earth. Certainly one of the greatest prophets.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:12:04 But we see a little bit of his human side come through in his protestations to Jehovah. He says in effect, “Why have you brought trouble upon your own people? In fact, why did you send me to Pharaoh? Ever since I went to Pharaoh to speak your name, he has done evil things to this people.” Meaning the Israelites. “You have not rescued or delivered your people at all.”

Hank Smith: 00:12:31 This is not working the way I thought it would.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:12:35 That’s exactly right. “Why did you have me go through this exercise if it was going to turn out this badly? Not for me but for your own people.” The Lord responds to Moses very, very patiently in chapter six. He says, basically, “Now you will see what I will do to Pharaoh.” In other words, Moses, buckle your seatbelt because you haven’t seen anything like what you’re going to see.

Hank Smith: 00:13:07 Andy, I’m so glad you pointed that out. How often do we as people do the same thing? We feel like we have a prompting, we’re going to move forward. It’s going to work out and it doesn’t. We go back to the Lord saying where did that prompting come from? I can see it in Nephi, I can see why Nephi taps into this story.

John Bytheway: 00:13:26 The reason I really appreciate this discussion is I think a lot of us are familiar with these amazing, beautiful stories because of the 10 Commandments and Prince of Egypt, a couple of movies. There’s not the emphasis of Christ that I love that I’m hearing right now. That’s why I’m glad all of our listeners who may be familiar with those movies can look at this with these kind of eyes. Where we’re focusing on look at the Passover meal, look at the symbolism of Christ. Then we can appreciate that go into actual text. I love those movies and I’m grateful for them but now we get to look for the Savior and all these verses. So thank you for bringing that in and let’s continue to do that today.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:14:11 Wonderful, thank you. The part that I like to focus on in my old age is the patience that the Lord has with Moses. He says in effect, “Now, calm down, wait and see what I’m going to do to Pharaoh because of my strong hand. Because of my strong hand, he will eventually drive the Israelites out of his land. Things will be that powerful that he will in effect want them to go. He won’t want them to keep around.”

Hank Smith: 00:14:50 In Moses’ mind, Andy, it’s got to be like what? There’s no way that Pharaoh’s ever going to want us to leave.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:14:58 That’s right and we see that throughout the first nine plagues where Pharaoh even at one point says, “Okay, if you’ll stop this plague of frogs, then I think we can let you go out, and worship your God.” But then he has a change of heart and we’ll talk more about Pharaoh’s hardened heart. There are a couple of things to say. So notice then in chapter six, the Lord reintroduces himself to Moses in verse three of chapter six. He reminds Moses that he’s the one that appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob. Notice that they’re listed separately because each one is important to God and each one has a separate experience with the great Jehovah. So the Lord wants Moses to understand that Jehovah is capable of bringing about his purposes. Then he says according to the King James Version, “By the name of Almighty God but my name Jehovah was I not known to them.”

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:15:59 I think it’s okay if we admit that the King James translators misread this passage. It’s clarified for us in the JST addition at the bottom of the page, where the Lord’s statement is a question rather than a statement. He says and was not my name known unto them? In other words, the name Jehovah was known by the patriarchs, and it was known all the way back before that. I just want to say as a student of Hebrew, that this is a perfectly legitimate translation from the construction. There were no question marks in ancient Hebrew writings. The way that you asked a question was you made a comment in the form of a statement but you inflected it as a question. That’s I think what Jehovah’s doing. He’s saying I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, El Shaddai in Hebrew and by my name Jehovah was I not known unto them?

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:17:01 So the key word in verse three is the word but and interestingly in the way Hebrew works, this is one consonant in the Hebrew text. It’s called the vav. Vav then is the way that you insert a conjunction. The point is that rather than translating as but it really is to be translated as and, and by my name Jehovah was I not known unto them?

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:17:29 So we have the JST evidence and we actually have the Hebrew that can be translated appropriately as a question. I’ve always appreciated the fact that the Joseph Smith Translation helps us to appreciate points that we may miss in the text. Then he says and the Lord says, “I have remembered my covenant.” Thankfully, the Lord does remember the covenant that he made with Adam and then reconfirmed to Abraham. Abraham was such a powerful follower of truth and a powerful follower of Jehovah that it becomes known as the Abrahamic Covenant. We all remember that there are four main subheadings to the Abrahamic Covenant. Four main categories of promised land, numerable posterity, priesthood authority, and ultimately exaltation. In this case, we’re going to focus on the land part of it.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:18:25 I have made my covenant and I remember my covenant, and I’ve got us a land, a promised land prepared for the Israelites, who have been groaning under Egyptian for the last several hundred years. It’s all again about redemption. It’s all about the things that the Lord will do to bring about the fulfillment of his covenant with covenant to Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:18:50 If I’m the intended audience of these books, isn’t the idea to be my family history, where I… If I’m living just after the time of Moses and I pick up my five books of Moses. This is the idea of I’m supposed to get from this, that I’m part of this covenant as well and that I have a role to play?

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:19:15 One of the all time great to Hebrew scholars, Professor R.K. Harrison talks about the beginning of the Old Testament, the Book of Genesis. He says it’s nothing more or less than a family history. It’s written so that all Israel feels a part of that family history. We’ll get to this later. But interestingly enough, when our Jewish brothers and sisters celebrate the Passover every springtime of the year, they are obligated. They’re required to consider themselves as part of the Israelites who came out of Egyptian bondage. This is not abstract. They themselves are required to consider themselves as though they were part of the original Israelites. If they don’t do that, then they’re not fulfilling the requirement of the Passover. That’s true even to this very day. There’s a special part in the Passover, where we’re told, our Jewish friends are told you must consider yourself as though you were part of the original Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:20:19 Chapter six, verse five, I remember.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:20:22 So important to keep that in mind that we ourselves are part of this story. We may be removed by however many years, maybe. But the point is that we’re part of this story. We’re part of this Israelite community. This is us we’re talking about here.

John Bytheway: 00:20:42 I had a student once, it was such a great moment. She was a Jewish convert, one of my students. I asked my class, “Somebody willing to explain the Passover a little bit and the Exodus?” As we’re talking about this. She raised her hand, she said, “That is when the Lord brought us out of bondage.” She didn’t say them, it was her family. I had to stop and say, “Did you hear the way that she said that?” That is when the Lord protected us and brought us out of bondage. I just loved the way that she put that and had to stop and have the whole class remember that.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:21:28 She was well taught by her parents because that is the requirement of the Passover. If you haven’t had a chance to participate in a simulated Passover or even in a regular Passover. If you have a Jewish family or Jewish friends, take the opportunity to do that. You then begin to sense that this really is our story, it’s not their story. It’s our story, absolutely.

John Bytheway: 00:21:56 It’s our covenant, we are children of Abraham. This is our family this is talking about.

Hank Smith: 00:22:03 If you read these next few verses, Andy, it feels like the intended audience or a modern day reader can sense the Lord speaking to them. I will bring you out of bondage, I will be your God. Just like I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I am the Lord. I swear it to you.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:22:22 Well, and you point out these verses, verses six through eight as very important verses. They foreshadow the four aspects of redemption that are commemorated in the Passover or Seder meal. You just articulated them. I am Lord, I will bring you out from under the burden of Egypt. I will rid you out of their bondage, I will redeem you. I will take you me. So these four aspects of redemption are recounted in the Passover, even in modern times. It wasn’t just for them. So again, this draws all of us into this important family history.

Hank Smith: 00:23:04 Someone listening today might think, well, I’m not in to the Egyptians but we are in bonded to the monsters of sin and death, as Jacob would say. The Lord saying I will release you from this bondage of sin and death.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:23:18 Not to put too fine a point on the times in which we’re living. But there are people on the opposite side of the world that are living in bondage. No political comment intended but there are all kinds of bondages that people groan under in our day. We’re so grateful then that we have this model that reassures us, that Jehovah in ancient times had enough power to bring about his purposes. Jesus Christ in our day has enough power to bring about his purposes. If we extend that, the real lesson is Jesus Christ at our Father in Heaven have enough power to answer our prayers. No matter what our challenges, we have to be patient. Sometimes the Lord for wise purposes allows these conditions to go on and we wonder why. Then we start wondering, well, maybe I’m supposed to learn some different lessons from this. But yeah, bondage is alive and well in 2022.

Hank Smith: 00:24:23 Whatever your own personal struggles are, the Lord says I can bring you out from under that burden.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:24:30 Exactly.

Hank Smith: 00:24:31 Beautiful.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:24:32 We then have Moses that goes to speak the children of Israel in verse nine. But they’re not listening to his voice because of the discouragement brought about by the cruel bondage that they’re experiencing. So the Lord says to Moses, “Go and speak unto Pharaoh that he let the children of Israel go.” Moses says, “Well, they didn’t listen to me before. Why are they going to listen to me again?” He puts up this protestation that he has already expressed way back in chapter four of Exodus. He says, “Pharaoh’s not going to listen to me, a person of uncircumcised lips.” This is a curious phrase, it’s a Hebrew idiom. Circumcision versus the uncircumcised suggests the demarcation between those that are covenant Israel. Those that are known as opposed to those that are foreigners. So what we might discern from this is that what Moses is really saying is that I have problems in a foreign tongue and we naturally think, well, yeah he doesn’t understand Egyptian. But that’s actually not true.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:26:00 If we take a look back or forward in the New Testament, go to Acts chapter 7, verse 22. This is the great disciple, Stephen, who is bearing his testimony about Christianity and about Jesus as the Messiah. But he does it by teaching the history of Israel. So Acts chapter 7 is Stephen’s defense of Christianity and his defense of Jesus as the Messiah but he does it by teaching history. Notice what Stephen says about Moses. Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was mighty in words and in deeds. So, well, wait a minute. Moses says, “I’m slow of speech and I’ve answered. So what’s going on here? I think the answer, at least part of the answer is that what Moses is saying is my native tongue, I was raised in Egypt. My native tongue is Egyptian. I don’t speak so good the Hebrew lingo. I don’t speak Northwest Semitic. As a result, I’m not viewed by either the Israelites or Pharaoh and his court as an eloquent and polished ambassador. Not just for my people but a competent ambassador for my very God.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:27:41 He repeats that by the way, in verse 30. He says, “I am of uncircumcised lips, how shall Pharaoh hearken unto me?” Yeah, he speaks Egyptian but he doesn’t speak the language of his own people. So he is not regarded as competent, as a worthy ambassador of this. That’s a little bit different twist I think than we sometimes think of as what’s Moses’ problem with language. No, I don’t think he stutters. No, I don’t think he has a speech impediment. I think he’s telling us that because he was raised in Pharaoh’s court as a young man, he speaks Egyptian. That’s his mother tongue and he’s trying to learn Hebrew or a form of Hebrew, Northwest Semitic.

Hank Smith: 00:28:33 So that he can represent Israel.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:28:35 So that he can appropriately represent Israel. Now, this takes us to another important point. We see this upcoming with the plagues. It is true that the signs and wonders that Jehovah will do through Moses are intended to have Pharaoh let the Israelites go. But the target audience really isn’t Pharaoh or the Egyptian Nobles in Pharaoh’s court. The target audience for all of these signs and wonders is Israel itself. That’s who Jehovah really has in mind. Yes, he’s going to use these signs and wonders to make Pharaoh let the Israelites go. But the real intended audience, the audience that Jehovah is most interested in is Israel itself. I think that we get a sense of that in much of this narrative.

Hank Smith: 00:29:38 Andy, that makes such perfect sense. It reminds me of maybe some people who are new to the church that I’ve met. Who will start talking and they’ll say, “You’ll have to forgive me, I don’t speak the lingo yet. I don’t know the doctrine yet. I’m sorry.” There’s always this apology of I don’t know it as well as I should, I’m sorry. You’re thinking, no, the Lord can speak through you even if you don’t have the background of maybe someone who was born in the church and raised in the church. I have students like that, who come up after class. I don’t know who this person is or this person is. I don’t know what BYC is. I don’t know what some of these acronyms mean and they feel uncomfortable. You’re saying yeah if it was just Moses, the Israelites would go hey, you don’t know what you’re talking about. But with the Lord speaking, they’re going to go this really is the Lord.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:30:38 Well, and think about the blessing it is to have the New Testament. Specifically, this great disciple, Stephen, who puts us on to this train of thought. Who clues us into the way things are really working so that we don’t make assumptions that are wrong. If it wasn’t for Stephen’s recounting of history before the Sanhedrin. I think about how bold he is in doing that. What’s funny is so a lot of my students they have the assignment to read the section in Acts. A lot of them skip over Acts chapter 7 because it’s the history of Israel and they say it’s boring. Well, it isn’t boring if you want to understand the way that the world was working in Moses’ day and in all of those periods, up to the time that we see Jesus born on the earth.

Hank Smith: 00:31:34 John, this reminds me of a story you used to tell about a guy who gets called as a Sunday school teacher and he doesn’t even know how to read.

John Bytheway: 00:31:44 Yeah, I was leaving the mall downtown in Salt Lake City and saw a man standing by a table, signing copies of his book. Nobody was talking to him, people were walking right past him. My heart ached because I have been in that spot before. Why am I here? This is crazy. People look at your book and walk away and don’t want to make eye contact. He had this book, Mafia to Mormon. He was in mafia in Michigan, I think it was. He-

Hank Smith: 00:32:19 You say that so casually, he was in the mafia in Michigan.

John Bytheway: 00:32:23 Yeah. He came home from work one day, whatever you call it. His wife said, “I let a couple of young men in the house today. They were missionaries.” He was like, “You should never let anybody in the house. They’re not missionaries, that’s their cover story. Those are federal agents. We got to get out of here and everything.” It causes this big fight and she says, “Well, they’re coming back tomorrow.” “What? They’re coming back tomorrow?” She convinces him to wait and he’s watching them come down the street and said, “One of them looked like he was about 12 and the other was maybe 18.” He said, “A cop will never let you get behind him.” So he opened the door and said, “Come in.” To see if they would walk past him, let him be behind them. They did, they just walked right in.

John Bytheway: 00:33:08 So he settled down and they had this big discussion. A long story short, he unloads on all these questions he’s got, religious questions now that he knows they’re really missionaries. The missionaries end up calling the mission president, hey, we’ve got this man. He has all these questions but it’s 9:30. The mission president says, “Well, you can stay until 10:30 but let me talk to your investigator.” So here’s a mission president with this mafia guy, “Will you follow these young men home and make sure they get home safely? There are some shady characters out there.” He says, “Yeah, I’ll take care of them.” So at 1:30 in the morning he takes them home but he ends up joining the church. Finally, the Bishop with great discernment told him you’re in but you need to be all the way in.

John Bytheway: 00:34:04 At the parallel of his life, he’s able to get out of the mafia. The great part of the story is what kind of a calling do you give a former mafia guy? Obviously, you have him teach the 10-year-olds. So as the Bishop extended the call and I love this story. He said, “Bishop, I can’t read. I’ve been conning people my whole life, I skipped kindergarten. I can’t read.” I can just feel the Bishop having been inspired to extend this call and then the guy says I can’t read. The Bishop just kind of said, “You’ll be fine. Here’s the manual.” He says, “I walk into some 10-year-old boys in my class.” He says, “Boys, I’m supposed to…” Imagine the tenderness here, the humility. “I’m supposed to be your teacher but boys, I can’t read.” The boys said, “We’ll help you.” They were up on the chairs, on their knees surrounding a lesson manual. He said, “Those 10-year-old boys read me the lesson manual. Those boys taught me the gospel.” Not just by what they read but by how they treated him, I think. “If you get the book Mafia to Mormon, it’s dedicated to my 10-year-old primary class, these 10-year-old boys.”

John Bytheway: 00:35:18 But that’s a short version of the story that’s so wonderful. But in another way, as you are kind of paralleling this, I don’t speak the language. I am so new at this. I’m supposed to be your teacher. I can’t read. Here’s these boys, we’ll help you. I like to illustrate when I tell that story, this is the pure love of Christ, love for Christ, love like Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:35:42 Yeah. Well, just the idea of I get what Andy’s telling us here, is that Moses does not feel like the guy. Think of a missionary, right, Andy, out there? I am not the representative you want, I promise.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:35:52 That you need. I was going to tell a personal story about empathy that I gained for Moses. The first time we went to Israel to teach at the BYU Jerusalem Center. This was in 1990 and the Gulf War was looming large on the horizon. So President Hinckley was a counselor in the first presidency. He and his brother made the decision that they would let the students come to Jerusalem. But they had to go to Greece for six weeks to make sure that things were settled enough. That Saddam Hussein wasn’t going to start launching his missiles while the students were trying to make their way to Jerusalem. So the point is that my family and I got to Israel on a Thursday. By I think Sunday, the decision had been made to have the students go to Greece. But the families of the teachers would stay in Israel.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:36:53 That meant that I had to leave my family in Israel by themselves, while I went to Greece to greet the students. My wife didn’t speak Hebrew and my children didn’t speak Hebrew. They had to start school and they had to figure out the bus system. My wife says, “You mean it’s not safe enough for the students but it’s safe enough for family with children?” That kind of a situation. So the point is that I went, I was for six weeks with the students in Greece. Everything kind of calmed down, Saddam Hussein did attack Israel but that wasn’t until January. So I got back to Jerusalem and to my family at the end of September.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:37:37 The first morning that I was back, sat down for breakfast, and wanted a piece of toast. Janet put this slab of stuff on the table. I thought this looks awfully white for butter. But I thought, well, I’ll try it. I tried it, slathered my toast with this stuff and it tasted weird. I said, “What did you buy?” Well, she showed me the package and because she didn’t speak Hebrew, she had bought lard instead of butter. I thought you know what? This is the way that Moses must have felt. He is fluent in the language of the Egyptians but he’s not fluent in the language of the Israelites, the Hebrews. So he’s slathering his toast with lard instead of butter.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:38:27 We joke about that but the real punchline is that we went out and bought butter and that the lard actually tasted better. So we used the lard from then on. But the point is we need to have empathy for those that haven’t had exposure to the language that we use. That’s kind of a side lesson from Moses’ experience. Before we move on, our readers will notice that in the midst of all of this. Before we read about the Lord’s solution to Moses’ problem in chapter seven, verse one, we get this section of family history dropped right in the middle of the narrative, verses 14 through 25.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:39:16 We’re reading along, talking about Moses going back to Pharaoh and how he’s protesting. I don’t have the qualifications credentials. All of a sudden, the narrative changes, and we start talking about family history. Notice that the history that’s been talked about is Moses’ history. The author of this wants us to understand why Moses is chosen of the Lord. That is because he is the authentic, legitimate representative of the Israelites. He is a member of the tribe of Levi and only the first three sons of Israel are mentioned here. To get to the point that Moses and Aaron are legitimate, designated representatives, and they are representing their own people. It’s done by the insertion of family history, that they really do have the Lord’s approval. That they are the very ones whose family they are representing and whose families they’re going to save.

Hank Smith: 00:40:28 I was going to say, Andy, that’s where we get Moses’ parents name.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:40:32 Exactly, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:40:33 Right here, we wouldn’t have them if it weren’t for this.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:40:36 We’ve got this interesting understanding of the way that Moses and the Israelites taught and were taught. It’s using the examples of family history to justify their legitimate call. Of course, the other reason that this put in is that Moses and Aaron being Levites will be in charge of the priesthood when the Melchizedek priesthood is taken away at the time of the great apostacy. With the golden calves in Exodus chapter 32. What will be left is the Levitical priesthood. Aaron will be put in charge of Levitical priesthood.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:41:18 So that helps readers as well as the family of Israel understand that this is the reason why Aaron will be in charge of the Levitical priesthood. Is because he’s legitimate representative of one of the first four tribes of the family.

Hank Smith: 00:41:36 How would you say Moses’ mother’s name? Is it-

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:41:40 Jochebed or Jochebel.

Hank Smith: 00:41:44 Jochebel. I just think of her tossing that basket into the river.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:41:46 We do come to appreciate her strength of character and her faith. Trusting that the Lord will take care of this baby boy and guide his life to become the powerful prophet that he did. By the way, some of our readers who know their ancient history will recognize that this is a kind of a pattern or a theme story that applies to other ancient kings. For example, there was a king in Mesopotamia named Sargon The Great. His story is remarkably like Moses’ story, where he has put into a… That very well may be with those traditions, those historical traditions floating about that. May be the source of Moses’ mother’s inspiration to put him to a reed basket. It was done earlier for other mighty leaders of nations and it worked out fine. So it might very well work out fine now.

Hank Smith: 00:42:46 You used the word floating there, that was a good little insert. Yeah, that was a good pun. So Moses feels out of place.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:42:56 I don’t think he ever quite recovers from that self-recognition. That he has some work to do too, in order to be the consummate leader of the Israelite people that the Lord needs him to be. But he didn’t start out that way, that’s a lesson for us. Is that the Lord takes us where we’re at and whoever he calls, he qualifies. It may take a few years for us to ramp up and become fully the kinds of leaders that we think the Lord needs and that he does need. But he guides us and he nurtures us and he mentors us along, all of us. Moses is a great example of that.

John Bytheway: 00:43:38 One of the things I love about this story is Moses expressing his inadequacy here and there. Who am I to do this? I love that the Lord doesn’t answer the way that we might with you’re great, you’re awesome. You’re wonderful, you’re special. The Lord just says I will be with thee, I love that answer. It’s you’re right, Moses, and to all of us, you all have weakness. But I will be with thee and in me is where your strength is going to come. I love that message to Moses. I think it teaches us to help our children and those we teach have not just conf in themselves but confidence in God and that he can help them. That he’ll be with them.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:44:21 The fourth article there, you have faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ means that you trust that he has enough power to bring about his purposes using you. In you he will manifest his power and his glory. Little old me, I do love President Monson’s, I guess what we would call it paraphrase of the principle that you articulated. Whom the Lord calls, he qualifies. He doesn’t leave people to themselves, he is always with us. That’s one of the great lessons that we derive from Moses.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:44:56 So Moses and Aaron, they go to Pharaoh’s court but the Lord has told them that he wants them to do something when they first arrive again back in Pharaoh’s court. I can direct our attention to chapter seven verses eight through 12. The Lord speaks to Moses and to Aaron and says, “When Pharaoh shall speak to you saying show a miracle, what are you going to do?” Well, the Lord says, “What you’re going to do is you’re going to take the rod that’s in your hand and throw it down and it will become a serpent.” Of course, they do that, and the magicians of Pharaoh’s court are able to duplicate that miracle.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:45:42 But what happens in verse 12 is maybe the summary of the message that we need to derive. That is to say the serpent that came from Moses and Aaron’s rod swallows up all of the other serpents. That is to say God’s mastery over Pharaoh and over the gods of Egypt are one of the first things that Moses and Aaron do in Pharaoh’s court. There’s an important side note, a footnote to this particular episode. It centers on snakes, on serpents. In almost every culture of the Mediterranean world, anciently, the serpent or the snake was a dual symbol. On the one hand, it represented the ultimate goodness of God. On the other hand, it represented the ultimate evil of demons that also inhabit the world. Of course, that’s true in the Judeo-Christian culture. On the one hand, the serpent represents Satan, Lucifer in the garden. On the other hand, the serpent represents the Messiah, Jesus Christ as acknowledged by Jesus in John chapter 3. He was the very one as Jehovah who commanded Moses to raise the brazen serpent. So we live in this world where serpents symbolize so very much good and sometimes evil.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:47:11 That was true in ancient Egypt, that the ultimate beneficent deity in the Egyptian Pantheon was represented by a serpent. Also, the ultimate malevolent demon in the Egyptian Pantheon was represented by a serpent, Apophis. That is demonstrated by Pharaoh himself. As you and many others will remember at this point in history, Pharaoh wears the double crown of upper and lower Egypt.

Hank Smith: 00:47:43 The snake, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:47:44 The serpent, the cobra, the Ureus as it is called, is the symbol. Right in the front of Pharaoh’s crown, the symbol of his power, and the symbol of his authority. Every Pharaoh in Egypt was regarded as a living god on earth. So we have Moses representing the true and living God to one who was regarded by his people, Pharaoh as a living god on earth. In fact, he has the serpent as his symbol. This is his power, this is his authority. What happens? The serpent of the true and living God swallows up the serpents of the false god that are produced. The snakes that are produced by the magicians in Pharaoh’s court.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:48:31 So there isn’t very much in this section from chapter seven to chapter 13. That doesn’t have tremendous symbolism as the backstory of why it is included in the text. I hope I explained that clearly enough but serpents place such an important role in the ancient world. For the Egyptians, the serpent represented Pharaoh, who was the living god on earth. He was Horus, the son of Osiris. Who was the great original god of the Egyptian Pantheon, the god of resurrection. That’s why Osiris is always portrayed in papyrus documents in the color green because he represents life, verdancy, and so on. So that’s the backstory here. I think it’s a fascinating one and I think it’s a powerful one. It also helps us to appreciate that this image of the serpent was [inaudible 00:49:30] by Lucifer. So that he could come in the guise of the Messiah. He wasn’t the Messiah but he comes in the guise of the Messiah. What does he do? He promises, Lucifer promises things that only the true Messiah can promise. You shall not surely die but you’ll be as the gods. Well, he doesn’t have the power or the authority to bring that about but he’s trying to demonstrate to Adam and Eve that he really does have the power and authority that’s represented by the image of the serpent, which is a true image of the Messiah. We see that at even in Christianity as well.

Hank Smith: 00:50:14 There’s a great verse in Revelation. There’s a dragon that looks like a lamb, that speaks like a dragon. Where it’s I’m trying to maybe pretend that I can say things like the Lord.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:50:30 I think that’s what Lucifer is trying to do in the garden. He’s trying to make people think because he is a liar from the beginning. He’s trying to make people think that he has this messianic qualification. That he’s the Messiah, he’s teaching the truth. Well, not really. So we see the image of the serpent being a powerful one.

Hank Smith: 00:50:53 I wanted to say that when Pharaoh saw that serpent eat the other serpent, he maybe should have picked up on the message. This is really big foreshadowing of what’s about to happen.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:51:09 Yeah. Well, how many times are we presented with messages from the Lord and we either ignore them because we don’t want the information? Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up, which is certainly true for Pharaoh. But you’re right. What must have been going through his mind is he sees the very image of his own power and authority as a living God on earth. Being overcome by this God whom he is earlier said, “Who is this Lord that I should pay any attention to him?” Well, he’s going to start paying attention to the true and living God

John Bytheway: 00:51:50 Do the scriptures differentiate between serpents and vipers? Jesus used the phrase a generation of vipers. I know that in that series, The Chosen, they made a comment about. He said we were vipers, the Pharisees said. Do you know?

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:52:07 Yeah, there are different words, both in Hebrew and in Greek that are used. In fact, in this part of the Exodus narrative, there are two different words that are used. Both are translated as snakes and I suppose that there are fine distinctions to be made. I don’t off the top of my head what word it is that’s used in the New Testament but it would’ve been a Greek word. Since the original text of the New Testament was written in Greek.

John Bytheway: 00:52:35 Yeah, I’ve heard that vipers were poisonous. Snakes are not necessarily poisonous but vipers are. That maybe the Savior when he called them a generation of vipers was you’re, for sure, the bad kind of snake, I don’t know.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:52:47 Yeah. Just from my personal experience, living over in the land, I can say that many, if not most of the snakes are poisonous. We constantly remind our students if you see a snake, leave it alone. You have no idea-

John Bytheway: 00:53:04 You don’t know.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:53:05 That’s exactly right. Certainly, the Uraeus, the cobra symbol that the Pharaoh war was poisonous. We could have a discussion about why the serpent becomes a symbol of deity on the one hand or ultimate evil on the other hand. Why is the serpent associated with the concept of resurrection? When the serpent encounters a human, the serpent has to make an instantaneous decision whether to strike and inflict punishment or to slither away. So that idea of instantaneous judgment, which is the purview of the gods. Also, the snakes, they shed their skin every year and they’re renewed. So the idea of resurrection immediately comes to mind with the idea of the snake renewing itself or being “resurrected” if you will, on a yearly basis. A lot of reasons why serpents played such an important role in the ancient world. With that then, the Lord is ready to unleash the different plagues on Pharaoh and on the Egyptian kingdom. The first plague, of course, has to do with the River Nile.

Hank Smith: 00:54:22 Now, Andy, as we go through these 10 plagues here, I know that listeners are going to say I don’t like the Lord dishing out these plagues. But I think it’s important that you started out the way you did because one, Pharaoh is choosing these plagues. God says, “I’m going to remember my covenant. I am going to keep my covenant and no one’s going to stop me.” I know that some people get uncomfortable with the Lord sending plagues on these people. But I like that the Lord keeps his covenants.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:54:54 I do too. Lest we start blaming the Lord for things that Pharaoh himself is responsible for. We can look at a verse like verse three of chapter seven. This is an important passage because we see this theme throughout the next chapters. Where the Lord speaking, “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.” Well, first of all, notice that there’s a footnote to verse three of chapter seven, in which we get this marvelous JST correction. Where Pharaoh hardens his heart, Pharaoh hardens his own heart. That JST correction then follows through the rest of the chapters. But even more important than that, in chapter eight, verse 32 and in chapter 10, verse one of Exodus. We have Pharaoh saying, “I will harden my heart.” I think that was originally the correct reading of the text and somehow transcribers or translators got confused, got mixed up. Thought that it was the Lord who was hardening Pharaoh’s heart when it’s really Pharaoh.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:56:08 But even more important than that, chapter eight, verse 32 and in chapter 10, verse one. The word in Hebrew that’s used that’s translated as harden. I will harden my heart or he hardens his own heart is the word for heavy. Kaved is the Hebrew word, kaved or kaved. So what the text is really having Pharaoh say is I will make my heart heavy. This plays directly into an ancient Egyptian religious practice, which is known as the weighing of the heart. Some of our listeners may be familiar with that. The most common judgment scene that tourists buy that are painted on papyrus pieces is called the Hunefer judgment scene.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:57:01 What we see is a candidate who wants to enjoy the afterlife. Wants to become a god himself or herself and live in the realm of the gods. In order to do that, the person on their deathbed has to pass different tests. One of the tests is the judgment that they must pass through.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:57:25 So we see this person being brought to the god, Anubis, who’s the god of the dead. He’s the jackal-headed god. We see another Egyptian god, who’s got a slate in his hand and a stylist and he’s taking notes. That’s the god Thoth, who is the god of scribes. Then we see the balance scales, where the candidate for eternal life’s heart is being weighed against the feather of the goddess Maat.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:58:00 It’s a very famous scene, a lot of people will recognize it. I have a copy of it right here. Where you can see that there is a person that desires to live life like the gods in the afterlife. He’s brought to the balance scales, his heart. Don’t get too caught up in the scientific mechanics of how a candidate can stand there but have his heart weighed on the balance scales. They viewed the world differently than we do. So he wants to enjoy eternal life with the gods, his heart is weighed. If his heart weighs heavier than the feather of Maat, it means that the accumulated deeds of his life have been evil. So things are out of balance.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:58:47 If his heart weighs heavier than the feather of Maat, then he’s turned over to what’s called the Ammit monster. The Ammit monster is represented as a creature with the head of a crocodile, the chest and pause of a lion, and the rear end of a hippopotamus. These are the three largest man-eating animals in Egypt, in the ancient world as they are today. So you stay away from those three. So he’s cooked, he’s done. He won’t get eternal life. But if your heart weighs as light as the feather of Maat, then you are brought into the next realm, where you stand before Osiris. You go through a series of, I guess what we would call ordinances is too strong a word. We would use that word but the ancient Egyptians would say he goes through a series of in enthronement tasks. Then he’s anointed for eternal life. The ankh is poured out on his head, he’s robed with the robe of the gods. Then he’s ushered into the presence of Osiris to live his life.

Dr. Andrew Skinner: 00:59:58 All of that is to say that the Hebrew text, at least in two passages, recognizes the significance of making your heart heavy. That’s probably the way that all of the passages in this section of Exodus read. That Pharaoh made his heart heavy because it reflects the actual judgment scene that every Egyptian knew about in ancient times. That’s an amazing correspondence there. So remember in chapter 8, verse 32, and in chapter 10, verse one, it isn’t Pharaoh or isn’t the Lord saying I will make his heart hard. It’s Pharaoh saying I will make my heart heavy, which is in perfect harmony with the judgment scene of ancient Egypt. I think that’s a remarkable correspondence, frankly. So those who have traveled to Egypt and who have maybe a papyrus representation of the judgment scene can look at it with new eyes. This is, in fact, what’s happening with Pharaoh in these chapters as we go through the plagues,

John Bytheway: 01:01:12 Please join us for part two of this podcast.