Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together, we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:00:19 Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my burning bush cohost, John Bytheway.

John Bytheway: 00:00:29 Is it hot in here or is it just me?

Hank Smith: 00:00:32 That’s how we all see you, John. You’re just a burning bush of our lives. You really are. John, we get to start a new book, Come, Follow Me Exodus. I am sure the views of Prince of Egypt and The Ten Commandments is going to skyrocket this week as everyone goes back to the old movies for this week. We couldn’t bring in Cecil B. DeMille. So, we had to bring in a different type of expert. Who’s with us today?

John Bytheway: 00:01:02 We have Anthony Rivera with us today. He’s a scholar of Ancient Scripture. And listen to this background. Prior to coming to BYU, Anthony worked with the Hebrew University’s Israel Institute of Biblical Studies teaching courses in Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic since 2010. He has also taught with the Seminaries and Institutes for many years.

John Bytheway: 00:01:22 Anthony has a Master’s Degree from Harvard Divinity School in Hebrew Scripture and Interpretation and a Bachelor’s Degree in Near Eastern Studies from BYU. He’s also the founder of HebrewBible.Info, a customized online learning resource for curious and serious students of the Biblical Hebrew and the Ancient Scriptures. I’m excited to look at that, Hank.

John Bytheway: 00:01:45 Anthony loves to teach, and his research focuses on issues relating to Ancient Near Eastern languages and cultures, Hebrew Bible Jewish writings and religion, and ancient scriptures, Anthony and his wife, Jill, have three daughters. He is passionate about traveling the world and is also an influential Native American leader. And I asked him before; he’s of the Acjachemen Nation. Did I say that right, Anthony?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:02:12 That’s correct. That’s correct. Thank you.

John Bytheway: 00:02:14 Thank you for being with us today. I’m very excited to look at these. Like Hank said, I’ve had music from Prince of Egypt going through my mind all night.

Hank Smith: 00:02:22 Yes.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:02:22 Thank you for having me. I’m very excited to be on the program. So, this is really exciting for not only myself but for all folks throughout the church and those studying this.

Hank Smith: 00:02:35 For me personally, this is going to be the most “I’ve ever studied these six chapters, I’m sure.” We’ll hand it over to you, Anthony. John and I are here for the ride. We have the best seats in the house.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:02:44 This is going to get very exciting very quickly. It’s like a roller-coaster ride. And we’re going to be heading down the roller coaster in our study of these introductory Books of Moses so it’s very exciting. The end of Genesis is connected directly to the next scroll which is the Exodus scroll. And the story line actually doesn’t stop at the end of Genesis with the death of Joseph, it actually continues immediately in the first chapter. We’re going to see the mention of Joseph three times in the first chapter.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:03:27 So, we see this continuation but in a different way, that’s for sure.

Hank Smith: 00:03:32 I wrote this down years ago, the Exodus can be put in three stages. First, a nation enslaved. Second, a nation redeemed. And then third, a nation set apart. It helps me to see a flow, be prepared for that kind of flow, enslaved, redeemed, set apart.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:03:51 And you can think about it that way on a scriptural or even a national way. But also try to think of that also in an individual way.

Hank Smith: 00:04:02 In our own lives, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:04:04 We’re enslaved by sin, then we’re redeemed and we’re set apart. I like that.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:04:09 Yes, exactly. We often see the Exodus as this monumental national movement of the large house of Israel with so many people and diversity and all housed there. Again, like Joseph in the background, there’s this underlying feature that connects directly to you. I like how you organize that because that’s a perfect example of how the reading of the scripture in Exodus can also pertain and apply directly to us. It’s so great.

Hank Smith: 00:04:50 Yeah. That is a macro-look and a micro-look, right?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:04:54 Yes, exactly. And Moses is the perfect representative for all of us, if you will. We often think of Moses as this great prophet parting the Red Sea and doing all these miraculous things.

Hank Smith: 00:05:09 The red robe. Yeah, most people have that look, right?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:05:13 Right, that the best part of the movie is when he’s standing there parting the Red Sea. But we need to take a step back from Moses, the great prophet. And we need to really start at the beginning and see how Moses, the very humble and confused person who is trying to discover not only who he is but also who God is, and how they interact together to move through those stages, like you said, Hank. Enslavement, redemption …

Hank Smith: 00:05:57 Being set apart, being made holy, yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:05:59 Setting apart, right? So, he’s a great representative. And we need to start off at his humble beginnings. I mean, even as a child, he should be dead. People are out to kill him as an infant. Can you imagine starting life that way?

Hank Smith: 00:06:15 Being tossed into a river but his mother knew well enough to put him in a basket, right?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:06:22 Yes. I’d like to walk together with Moses as modern-day house of Israel, as individuals walk together with Moses through this exodus of life, this journey of discovery and redemption and salvation. Walk together with him through these initial chapters to see how it sets off.

Hank Smith: 00:06:46 Anthony, the original audience is these Israelites, a little bit later in the Promised Land and they’re reading this and this is going to tell them their story. This is going to give them purpose and meaning and why they’re going to be different than the rest of the world.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:06:59 Yeah. And not just after the Exodus but throughout the history of Israel, even unto the time of Jesus and his teachings and ministry draws directly from the Exodus teachings to teach these very things about salvation and redemption and God’s direct relationship and love for his people to deliver them to the Promised Land.

Hank Smith: 00:07:34 Yeah. I’ve noticed as I’ve read the Book of Mormon, John, I’m sure you can comment on this that this story is important to Nephi. He’s frequently referring back to the story of Moses. So, it’s not something they’d forgotten, what’s that, 600 B.C. They definitely had not forgotten then. And yeah, you’re right. In Jesus’s life, 600 years later, still talking about the same story.

John Bytheway: 00:07:56 The Exodus and Moses are referred to more than like anything else in the New Testament that I heard somebody say that once. The more I started looking for it, the more I thought, “Yeah, they do talk a lot about Moses.” I don’t know if that’s really true but the more I read the New Testament, the more I see them referring back to Moses and the Law of Moses. I mean, Moses is what a central figure he is for the rest of the Bible.

Hank Smith: 00:08:20 Even in Isaiah, John. Isaiah is frequently saying, “This is the same God who parted the Red Sea, who struck down Pharaoh.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:08:28 And even carrying on not only throughout later prophetic scripture and the New Testament and other scripture like the Book of Mormon, as an important feature of the plan of salvation. It really is. It’s acting out the plan of salvation and its importance and meaning.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:08:47 But also, even to this day, we continue this. For example, what I mean by that is Jesus in his last supper is in the middle of the ceremony of Passover which is an exodus. There it is, right? And he’s acting it out like they have for thousands of years.

John Bytheway: 00:09:10 For millennia, yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:09:12 For millennia. And here he is, in his final hours, going through it with his apostles. And this time, explaining the reasons why and the fulfillment of this initial Passover, and that the Blood of the Lamb which will protect and save is going to happen within a few moments. And every week, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints partake of the same emblem, the bread and the water, which represents this Last Supper of Christ which represents the Passover in Exodus where we internalize it to this day on a weekly basis.

Hank Smith: 00:10:06 We don’t realize how much the book of Exodus affects our weekly service.

John Bytheway: 00:10:10 Yeah. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland said that once, “Do we see the sacrament as our Passover and connect those?”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:10:17 So true. So true.

John Bytheway: 00:10:18 The Passover became the Last Supper. And they’re all remembering this Passover Lamb. And then Jesus says, “This is me. This is my body.” Whoa, everything, Passover was pointing to that Last Supper with Jesus. Whoa, I mean, that must have been a moment when Jesus said some of those things during the Passover meal.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:10:38 Yeah. So, we’re going to see Moses as a representative, if you will, of one who is working out his salvation. And I think we can all relate to that. I think we can relate to our humble upbringings to cultural impacts, to being alone in the desert, meeting a mentor or having some sort of a fatherly figure, marriage, family, meeting God, getting close to him, asking questions, and going on various different life missions, if you will, in service of God. I think we can relate to Moses that way.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:11:20 Now, the Passover episode, and the actual Exodus episode comes later.

John Bytheway: 00:11:26 It’s not coming for a while.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:11:28 It’s not coming for a while. Let me ask you this. When do you first think of Exodus, who usually comes to mind? I know this is very general and sometimes even basic question. You might say, “Come on, Anthony, it’s all about Moses. He is the man.” When I think of Exodus, I think of two other people. Of course, don’t get me wrong. Moses is the key figure here, but there are two other people that I want to make note of that get me thinking.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:12:01 Number one is Joseph because Joseph carries on from the end of Genesis throughout the Exodus. And he’s mentioned three times by name in Chapter 1 of Exodus.

John Bytheway: 00:12:15 Verse 5, 6 and 8, yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:12:18 They mentioned him specifically by name. That’s not a coincidence and we shouldn’t gloss over that. The second name I think about which is very influential and critical to Chapters 1 through 6 is Jethro, Joseph and Jethro. Jethro is so important. I’ve done a lot of research. As a matter of fact, I’ve written chapters and have done research, eBooks on this, on Jethro himself.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:12:50 Jethro is a key factor. And I want to talk about him because we meet him as the main priesthood holder and the first one that Moses runs into or actually meets. So, he’s very critical in the training of Moses and pointing Moses toward the Mountain of God. Moses, once he learns this from his father-in-law, the priest of the God of the Mountain, he never turns from that. Moses never turns. He’s focused on it. And it’s quite awesome.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:13:28 So, I want to also address those two names and persons because we see them named by name in these first six chapters of Exodus.

John Bytheway: 00:13:41 I’m delighted to talk about Jethro because I’ve always wondered where he got the priesthood and what priesthood order he was in. Doesn’t he have another name in here, too, Jethro?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:13:52 He does. He has actually three names that they refer to him. He’s first introduced as Jethro, the priest of Midian. Afterwards, they call him Reuel which is another name referring to the man that may be more of a clan-like name that may have some significance.

John Bytheway: 00:14:11 Something of God.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:14:13 The friend of God, what a great, great name to have. He’s also called Yeter which may be a derivation of Yitro which in Hebrew, his name is Yitro. Yitro in Hebrew means something like his abundance, meaning he has been blessed. He may have been blessed for various different reasons which we’ll look at when we get to Chapter 3 when we’re introduced to him.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:14:43 I think most members of the Church have seen the movies, right? Or they’re seeing them now, right?

Hank Smith: 00:14:50 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:14:50 So, they know the storyline and they know the exciting key events and factors. Everybody knows the parting of the Red Sea and Moses in Egypt and, “Let my people go,” and the plagues and all that good stuff. Everyone knows the storyline.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:15:07 But what I’d like to do is walk through some of the storylines we don’t often get to focus on because I think they have some significant meaning. Not only that, but I also want to look at the language which is steering us towards a greater understanding than just, “Hey, this is a great story.” There are key things that are happening in the first six chapters that are pointing us towards that same mountain and the introduction of relationship with God.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:15:43 Let me just give a quick summary, if I can, of the six chapters. And then I want to zero in on just certain verses and some of the language there that I think you’ll enjoy. Now, remember, the Hebrew Bible, the first five books, if you will, were originally scrolls. And the first five books are in English, we call them after certain events like Genesis, the beginning, Exodus, the Exodus, the exit, Leviticus, and Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:16:18 But in Hebrew, they’re not called by these names. As a matter of fact, each scroll is called or named by the first word that appears on the scroll. Bereshith means in beginning of. What’s interesting is the second scroll. It’s not called Exodus by the Israelites or the Jews today. The second scroll is called Shemot. Shemot means names.

John Bytheway: 00:16:47 Because it starts by naming the family of Jacob.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:16:51 That’s correct. It starts by listing names. And names is an important theme throughout this book, because not only are we going to reiterate the names of the House of Israel, with the highlight of Yosef, Joseph, but it’s also going to give us other names. And we need to pay attention to these names and why are they there, including most of all, which we will learn in these first six chapters, the name of God as he reveals it, as he reveals it to Moses on the mountain.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:17:32 The scroll starts off by saying, “velleh shemot bene Yisrael-these are the names of the sons of Israel.” Isn’t that a great way to start? It’s a reminder. It’s connecting Genesis to Exodus. And then it goes through the names of the sons of Israel. And it categorizes them by family which is interesting. So, you have the sons of Leah listed together.

Hank Smith: 00:18:04 Is that verse 2, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:18:08 That’s right. These are the sons of Leah. These are the oldest of the sons. Then you have Issachar and Zebulun which are other sons of Leah.

Hank Smith: 00:18:21 Yeah, she had six.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:18:23 In verse 3. But you also have Benjamin. Isn’t that interesting? Benjamin’s in there, the son of Rachel. But notice they don’t list Yosef here. They don’t list Joseph here, they just list Benjamin. Curious. That’s because we’re going to single out Joseph for another visit.

Hank Smith: 00:18:41 Yeah, he’s going to be highlighted.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:18:43 And then you get the sons of Zilpah and Bilhah in verse 4, the other wives of Jacob. You get Dan and Naphtali and Gad and Asher. And then in verse 5, here it is, it says the total number of persons that were of Jacob’s children came to 70. And Joseph was already in Egypt.

Hank Smith: 00:19:09 This idea of 70 is when they came to Egypt to be saved from the famine. They had 70 of them.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:19:15 That’s the families coming in.

John Bytheway: 00:19:16 Yes.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:19:17 And their wives, their children and so forth.

John Bytheway: 00:19:20 Joseph was already there waiting for him.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:19:22 He was already there.

Hank Smith: 00:19:23 He was already there waiting.

John Bytheway: 00:19:25 I knew you would come eventually.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:19:26 The connection of Joseph, Egypt and the storyline, this continuation with Egypt is very interesting. Joseph’s world, you see Joseph as a Semite or an Israelite, a Hebrew rising to the highest levels in the Egyptian royal court.

Hank Smith: 00:19:46 Basically the prime minister of Egypt. He’s running the show in the name of the king. Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:19:50 Scholars believe that this is during a period when the Native Egyptians were in a low point and it is possible that Semitic folks are running the show, cousins of the Israelites, if you will. Sometimes they refer to them as the Hyksos. But before we get there, something interesting happens in verse 7. Sometimes we gloss over this in English just because in English, we’re just reading.

Hank Smith: 00:20:19 Yeah, just the story.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:20:21 We’re reading a narrative. In Hebrew, it’s providing data. Let’s see, John, can you read verse 7 first just so that we know what it says? And then listen to it in Hebrew, if you will, please.

John Bytheway: 00:20:32 “And the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty, and the land was filled with them.”

Hank Smith: 00:20:42 That’s good job, John.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:20:43 Good job, John. Well done.

John Bytheway: 00:20:45 That’s in English. I just did the English first.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:20:47 You speak English really well.

John Bytheway: 00:20:48 Thank you.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:20:49 Now, let me ask you this. In that verse, did you recognize any words that you have heard before at the beginning of the other scroll?

John Bytheway: 00:21:00 Yeah. In the Garden of Eden. Be fruitful and multiply.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:21:04 Fruitful and multiply. And one more.

John Bytheway: 00:21:07 And fill the land, yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:21:08 And fill, that’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:21:11 So, this is Eden language.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:21:13 This is what I call Creation language that is scattered throughout the Old Testament. And what it is doing is it’s pointing us back to the Creation because when we’re pointed back to the Creation, we’re pointed back to God.

Hank Smith: 00:21:30 The Who and the Why, yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:21:31 Now, Moses is going to go through this. When he is on the mountain and God introduces himself, the first thing that he shows Moses is what? The Creation.

Hank Smith: 00:21:43 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:21:44 And this is where we get into the Book of Moses or the revelation of Moses in the Joseph Smith’s Translation which fits in right in these chapters. The Israelites, as they’re reading Exodus, they’re hearing things and they’re thinking, “Aha, I should be thinking about Creation, new creations. What is God trying to tell me about what is being created here?” He’s created a nation, first of all, as he promised, as he covenanted with Abraham. This is the fulfillment of the covenant.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:22:20 So, in verse 8, here we are. Here’s the situation and here’s the setting. And this is that famous line. Hank, could you read that one verse, verse 8.

Hank Smith: 00:22:30 “There arose up a new king over Egypt which knew not Joseph.”

John Bytheway: 00:22:34 Just politically speaking, is that the Hyksos were overthrown and this is a different person or is that just one school of thought on it?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:22:43 It’s one school of thought, yes. Now, notice it says, “There arose up a new king.” Notice, they’re not saying Pharaoh. Tells us that, okay, there is a new administration, a new government, if you will. The history of Egypt is really volatile. And here, we know around this time, it appears that this is the rise of the great what they call the New Kingdom, the 18th and 19th dynasty. These are the famous kings of Egypt that you all know and love in pictures and movies. Moses the Third, Seti the First, Ramses the great, these are all kings. Remember, they’re kings of Egypt.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:23:31 So, it appears that here, we’re getting rise of these kings. Now, these are Native Egyptians. These are not foreign Egyptians. And somehow, some way, they were able to recoup the Native Egyptian government.

Hank Smith: 00:23:45 So, it’s not just a new pharaoh, it’s a whole new system.

John Bytheway: 00:23:49 A beginning of a new dynasty.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:23:51 Yes. And it’s connecting it to an old one that we learn from Abraham, the Book of Abraham. We really should be broadcasting today from Karnak temple in Egypt, in Thebes. And maybe one day, we can do that.

Hank Smith: 00:24:07 I have to talk to our executive producers and say, “Hey, we really need to move our studios to Egypt so we can really get the feel of this.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:24:17 Yes, because there we can walk around, I can just point to actual inscriptions dating to this time that depict a lot of these things. So, it’s a new administration. And this New Kingdom, this new king does not know or care about Yosef. Now, remember, the kings of Egypt especially during these dynasties, this new great kingdom, remember, they thought and presented themselves as the son of god. In their royal names, they call themselves after the son of the Egyptian god Amun who was the great father of all the gods, Amun.

John Bytheway: 00:25:00 So, that’s King Tut’s name.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:25:02 Amun, that’s right. Tutankhamun, going back to the great father. Well done.

Hank Smith: 00:25:08 Well done, John. You get an A for the day.

John Bytheway: 00:25:10 I’m looking at those little cartoon shows, I read about King Tut and how they liked to put the name of god in their name and we do it, too. Israel, prevails with God or let God prevail.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:25:21 So, we’re setting up a whole new system that is trying to present themselves as the representatives of god. Now, this is going to become in great conflict with actual real God. That’s what this is really coming down to. So, the king on Earth was represented as the incarnate son of god Horus ruling the land on Earth. Isn’t that interesting? We’re going to see it is going to be a very clear conflict between Horus the son of god of Amun, the father god Amun, and the Son of God who we are going to learn his name, Yehovah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:26:10 So, this is setting the stage. Verse 8 is setting that stage. And Yosef, they’re trying to erase his name. It goes on in verses 9 and 10. The king says, “Look, the Israelite people are growing. They’re getting bigger.” He doesn’t know about the covenant made with Abraham.

Hank Smith: 00:26:28 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:26:29 Nobody filled him in on that. He doesn’t care. He’s starting to get paranoid of what just happened. And that is, “Well, what if these guys get too big? And somebody else comes in from the east allies with them, some more Semitic cousins, and it happens again?” What does he try to do to prevent that from happening? First, he says, “Let’s make their life so miserable.”

Hank Smith: 00:26:54 Taskmasters to afflict them.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:26:56 Let’s pile burdens upon them.

Hank Smith: 00:26:59 My children are going to use this against me. I can already see it. You’re a taskmaster that afflicts me with burdens.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:27:08 Yeah. Just don’t share with them verse 13.

John Bytheway: 00:27:11 “And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigor.”

Hank Smith: 00:27:16 Put that in vinyl and put it in your kitchen. Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:27:19 Yeah. That’s the nice way of saying it.

Hank Smith: 00:27:22 Make the children serve with rigor.

John Bytheway: 00:27:25 Rigor.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:27:26 Which really means to ruthlessly impose these tasks on them. I mean, they’re trying to work Israel to death. And then, the king has an idea. He says, “If we can’t work them to death, then we must put them to death.” And he does something interesting. Now, this is curious and we don’t always talk about this in our classes or discussions. And that is verse 15. Let’s read this. This is an interesting intersection that we need to ask some questions.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:28:01 So, John, verse 15.

John Bytheway: 00:28:03 “And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, the name of the other Puah.” They have similar definitions, don’t they? I read this somewhere.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:28:15 Yes, they do. And Hebrew, meyalledot, feminine plural noun coming from the word yeled which means a child. It’s also, in verb form, it means to give birth. So, these are the women who have the knowledge on how to deliver children healthy and safely. They are the life-givers. Now, what does that remind you of? Back to the Garden, right?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:28:46 Because when the woman, the first woman is presented who’s very special, by the way, presented to Adam or Adam and God says, “What do you think Adam?” Adam says, “She should be named Hava,” or in English, we say Eve. Hava is a very standard word which means the life-giver. She is the one who gives life. They’re the ones who are fulfilling Eve’s role and that is bringing children forth healthy and alive. They’re giving life.

John Bytheway: 00:29:26 What was kind of their standing in society? I would think they’re pretty important like doctors.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:29:31 Yeah, very important.

Hank Smith: 00:29:33 Enough for the king to speak to them, right?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:29:36 The king could have gone to the elders of Israel, the princes of the house of Israel which are still there. Moses even says, “I need to go to the elders of Israel,” the heads of the leaders. They’re still there. Why doesn’t he call them in? Why doesn’t he call the princes in, the direct descendants from the sons of Israel? “Why does he call them,” is the question. Because these midwives, you know what this reminds me of?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:30:06 When Adam calls Eve Hava because she is the mother of all living, there is an immediate attack on her. Remember this in the garden? Remember when the serpent who becomes Satan says, “I’m coming after her children. In order to stop this plan, I’m coming after her children.”

Hank Smith: 00:30:26 You have this very similar thing happening here. Pharaoh, the serpent in this case is coming after the children, her children.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:30:34 Yes. God says, remember to Eve, he tells the serpent, in the garden story, he tells him, “I will place enmity,” which is hatred. “I will place a natural hatred between her children and you. They will be born hating you.” Remember, the name of the second scroll is Shemot, names.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:31:01 So, here in verse 15, we get more names, the names of two of the midwives, Shiphrah and Puah. Shiphrah means brightness. And Puah, it literally means to glitter, light, stars. They’re symbols of creation. The word Shiphrah pops up again later on in Job. This is in Job 26:13. The same word is used. He says Shiphrah, by His Spirit, the heavens were made brightness, Shiphrah. He’s specifically referring to creation.

John Bytheway: 00:31:44 And that’s not in our footnote. So, we have to make that, Job 26.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:31:48 26:13 should be a footnote. So, Shiphrah and Puah, in my thoughts are representatives of Hava, of Eve. This is the same garden story that is translating throughout time.

Hank Smith: 00:32:04 I hope I have some granddaughters named brightness and glitter.

John Bytheway: 00:32:07 Shiphrah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:32:10 Beautiful people, strong women standing before Pharaoh, even before Moses’s.

John Bytheway: 00:32:18 One of the things I was hoping to learn today was things that the movies don’t cover. And this is one of those. I don’t remember the 10 Commandments or Prince of Egypt talking about the midwives and their importance. I know that Camille Fronk Olson has written about them a little bit. So, I was excited to talk about this.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:32:38 Yeah. They are important. I mean, why aren’t these two women who are named specifically standing in front of Pharaoh. And they don’t even call him Pharaoh at this point. They call him the king which is emphasizing his new role. They said a new king. John, keep going. John’s our expert English narrator.

Hank Smith: 00:32:59 Reader, by far.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:32:59 He’ll be our narrator.

John Bytheway: 00:33:00 “And he said, ‘When you do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools, if it be a son, then you shall kill him, but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.'”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:33:13 Isn’t that interesting that they specifically say a son or a daughter? These are family names. It didn’t say a boy or girl. It doesn’t say it in Hebrew. It says ben for a son or bat for a daughter. It doesn’t say a boy or a girl. He’s trying to destroy families.

John Bytheway: 00:33:34 Shiphrah and Puah are mentioned, but they never tell us the name of the king or the pharaoh.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:33:41 Isn’t that interesting? In a scroll, that’s called the names.

John Bytheway: 00:33:44 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:33:46 They never once mentioned the name of the king or the pharaoh.

Hank Smith: 00:33:51 Well, 17 says they won’t do it. The midwives feared God, did not.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:33:56 That’s right. Now, verse 17, you should put a little star by because this is the first time in this scroll that we see the word God. This is it. In Hebrew, it says, “And the midwives feared,” and then it says, “ha Elohim.” So, it specifically says in Hebrew that the midwives fear, respect, reverence Elohim, this is their God.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:34:29 Now, notice, it doesn’t say that they fear the king of Egypt from this New Kingdom who were pretty ruthless. Most of the images of these kings, of these dynasties, to Moses the Third, Seti the First, Ramses the Second, always depicts them huge especially there at the Temple of Karnak which is dedicated to Seti the First who is probably the king at this time. It always shows him with his hand raised with something in his hand, his other hand holding his enemies and him destroying them with his hand raised. That’s how they depict the king.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:35:10 And it was all over Egypt. The Israelites were building these temples and they’re thinking, “Oh, boy, did you see that picture we just put up the other day?” They should fear these guys.

John Bytheway: 00:35:20 Yeah. But these women don’t.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:35:23 These women don’t. Remember what God told Eve, “I will place hatred between you and the serpent.” They’re fulfilling and referring back to Eve.

Hank Smith: 00:35:38 In our Latter-day Saints’ storyline, we have Eve as kind of the hero of the Eden story. She’s going to figure out what she’s supposed to do here. And so, you have these same women doing that. They defied that serpent.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:35:52 Yes. They’re defying the king.

Hank Smith: 00:35:55 It says, “And did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:36:01 It says in Hebrew, the boys. Here, it uses a different word. It doesn’t use sons, it uses the boys. The King finds out and he summons the midwives back. And look what he says in verse 18.

John Bytheway: 00:36:18 “And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, ‘Why have you done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?'”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:36:26 This question that he asks is almost the same question that God asked Eve. Remember, when he partakes of the fruit, he first asked Adam, “Adam, where are you?” The second question is to the woman, remember? And he says something, “What is this you have done?” It’s almost the identical words.

John Bytheway: 00:36:51 It’s so cool.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:36:53 Here, the Pharaoh is asking these women again, the life-givers, “Why have you done this thing?” It’s almost ironic that here, the king who thinks he’s God is asking the question. And he says, “You’re letting these boys live,” but he’s asking a creation question, a garden question.

Hank Smith: 00:37:13 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:37:13 Okay. So, again, we’re pointed back there. Let’s see what they say, John.

John Bytheway: 00:37:17 I’m excited to hear it because I don’t know what this means. “And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, ‘Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.'” Did they deliver before we can get there? Does lively mean full of life? Does it mean quick?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:37:37 Let me tell you what it says in Hebrew. It clearly says, “The Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women.” It says kiy-chayot.” Chayot is the word for life. It’s very close to the word Hava which is the name of Eve. And it’s very close to the word Haya which means to be, which we’re going to learn very soon is the root of the name of God.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:38:07 What it’s trying to say here is they’re not like Egyptian women because they are living or alive. It says that, chayot, full of life is what they’re trying to say. And again, this is pointing us back to Hava who is Eve, the mother of all living. It’s their job, it is their purpose, it is their blessing to keep the commandments of God. Remember, “Be fruitful. Be great. Fill the earth.” Those were the first commandments ever given. And only the women can do that.

John Bytheway: 00:38:48 Our Jewish friends probably study these scrolls all the time. And is this something they clearly see that connection and have always seen it?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:38:56 Yeah, the answer is yes, they do this weekly. And they know it because they can hear it. They’re hearing the similarities. We don’t get that in English because we’re reading translations. The Hebrew Bible in Ancient Israel was meant to be heard. It wasn’t meant to be read. The Hebrews don’t read Scripture, they listen to Scripture.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:39:20 This is why we’re going to see later on in Deuteronomy, Moses with his great saying to Israel. That every day, that’s right, “Sh’ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad,” he says. “Hear, O Israel: the God that I introduced you to, he is the only One.” The scriptures were meant to be heard. So, you can hear these things. When we read them, sometimes we don’t listen and we don’t necessarily hear and we don’t necessarily study. It’s very rare you see the Lord say, “I command you therefore to read the scriptures.”

Hank Smith: 00:40:04 So, it seems like these women don’t follow through on the commandment because they fear God. But when the king says, “Why didn’t you do it,” they almost slight the Egyptians by saying, “Listen, the Hebrews are smarter than the Egyptians. They’re smarter than you think. They’re better on this than you think.” Seems almost like a slight to the Egyptians.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:40:24 Yeah. I don’t know if this is an excuse or a fact. What they don’t say is this, “Pharaoh or king of Egypt, our Hebrew sisters have been blessed with this covenant of Abraham a long time ago, which God promised that this nation needs to grow. So, before we even get there, sometimes the child is delivered, we just make sure it’s healthy and stays alive.”

John Bytheway: 00:40:51 That’s what I was wondering, when you were saying lively and comparing that to Eve full of life, I also thought, “Hey, this is part of the covenant, they’re going to have posterity. And Jacob will have posterity that’s huge.” And so, they’re lively that way perhaps.

Hank Smith: 00:41:06 Yeah, they’re smart.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:41:09 And the king has no idea what birth is about. He doesn’t really argue with them.

Hank Smith: 00:41:14 That sounded a lot like my wife talking to me just right there, “He thinks he knows what birth’s all about but he doesn’t.”

John Bytheway: 00:41:22 I was reading in another Bible translation which is let’s see what it’s called, the Living Bible. And the way that it put this verse, “The Hebrew women have their baby so quickly, we can’t get there in time. They are not slow like the Egyptian women.” We don’t use that translation but I was curious that it says that line, “They’re delivered err the midwives come.”

Hank Smith: 00:41:48 Yeah. I read another translation, John. They said, “They’re almost midwives themselves, these Hebrew women.” They’re very skillful.

John Bytheway: 00:41:55 They know what they’re doing.

Hank Smith: 00:41:55 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:41:56 Sisters out there know a lot more about this than we do brothers but …

Hank Smith: 00:42:00 Yeah. Here’s three guys talking about childbirth like we know.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:42:03 Yeah, I know. I know. I’m basically in Pharaoh’s seat right now saying, “Okay, whatever you say.”

John Bytheway: 00:42:11 Well, I was going to ask you about this because the Pharaoh instead of just off with their heads or whatever, he said, “Why did you do that?” And I thought Pharaoh being big powerful would just, if they didn’t obey his commandments, I thought he’d totally punish them but instead, he just asked them, “Why are you doing this?”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:42:28 Well, again, if we equate it to the question God asked Eve, there’s a consequence there in God’s questions to Eve. He says to Eve, “Mah zot asit.” It doesn’t ask Adam, “Why have you done this?” He asked the woman that, which is so interesting. This is a question of action, asit. He says, “Mah zot asit.” “What is this you are doing,” which is a question of action. But there’s consequence to it.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:43:01 He’s giving her an opportunity to speak and she does speak. She says, “Hey, listen, that serpent came in here and is telling half-truths. As a matter of fact, he’s lying to me.” Notice that we shifted from verse 18 to 19, we shifted from the king of Egypt to pharaoh.

Hank Smith: 00:43:21 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:43:22 Now, it’s pharaoh. Now, pharaoh is an Egyptian word which means a large house. And it’s usually referring to the house of the king or the palace, but God also has a large house we call the temple. It’s referring to the greatness of the House of God. Okay. In Hebrew, the word for temple is the same word, large house or palace, if you will.

John Bytheway: 00:43:51 I’m thinking of these houses you’re mentioning, pharaoh the large house, the temple is large house. And then it says in verse 21, “because the midwives feared God, that he,” I think he means God, “made them houses.” So, is that the same word or is this house like a family like House of Israel, you’re going to be prosperous in your posterity.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:44:14 It’s the same word. So, this is in contrast to the pharaoh, the large house. He thinks he has a sustainable house. The house was also a representative of the family, the kings of Egypt during these dynasties are families, father, son, father, son, father, son. And so, the House of Pharaoh means his posterity. But really, it’s God who shows you what a great house looks like by blessing these midwives with households for them it says. It says batim, houses for them. And I think it’s referring to their posterity.

John Bytheway: 00:44:56 Yeah. It sounds like then in the movies, we go right to cast the children in the river and we skip, that was the Pharaoh’s Plan B because the midwives wouldn’t do what he asked them to.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:45:06 That’s right. That’s right. If he cannot destroy the families of Israel from inside, then he is going to take action himself.

Hank Smith: 00:45:17 Okay. So, this was supposed to be the secret plan. This was supposed to be the not-so public plan and it didn’t work.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:45:25 That’s right. This is what the serpent is trying to do with the woman. Notice, the woman’s alone in the garden. The man’s not there. He tries to separate them and break them apart from the inside. Okay. The secret plan, if you will. Well, luckily, these sisters, the daughters of Eve are faithful. Okay. And don’t buy that.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:45:52 So here, the serpent has to take action into his own hands, “I will destroy her children then.” And here, Pharaoh says the same thing. So, our last verse in Chapter 1 is this. John, please.

John Bytheway: 00:46:06 “And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, ‘Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.'”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:46:16 There it is. There’s the decree.

John Bytheway: 00:46:17 You mentioned that you have some eBooks and things. I would just love to see this side by side with Genesis. Or is there one of your publications that covers this beautiful parallel here?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:46:29 There’s a couple on my website. This is what I use the HebrewBible.Info website for is to post some of these things so that folks who are studying this can use that as a resource because we don’t always have time in Gospel doctrine or even in other places to really get into this kind of stuff. So, I use that as kind of a library resource where people can have access to this.

John Bytheway: 00:46:56 It doesn’t just increase my testimony of the story or the characters, but it increases my testimony of the ancient scriptures. This is not random. These are not just words. This isn’t just somebody reporting it, this is crafted. This is revelation. To have that parallel so closely to the creation story, I did not know I’d be getting this today. So, thank you.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:47:18 So here, we have the decree from the Pharaoh, the sons must die, infant sons must die. And he doesn’t just tell it to his guards, he tells it to all his people.

John Bytheway: 00:47:31 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:47:33 This is a foreshadow where the sons are ordered to be slaughtered, a type of shot at Moses.

Hank Smith: 00:47:41 Matthew is going to use this story to present Christ as another Moses, another Redeemer, as another Deliverer.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:47:49 Chapter 2 focuses now, now we’re going to focus on one family. So, let’s do that. And in Chapter 2:1, we get introduced to this family. Let’s see what it says.

Hank Smith: 00:48:05 “And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:48:10 There’s that word again, “daughter of Levi.” This is a motif, daughter. They keep repeating this word. So, when I’m reading the text in Hebrew, I often think why do they keep saying that word? Moses is writing this? Why does he keep using daughter and not a woman? Because they say, a man from the house of Levi it says, Levi in Hebrew or Levi we say in English. It says a man. But then it says that he took a daughter of Levi because remember, the verse before the end of Chapter 1, they ended with the daughter.

Hank Smith: 00:48:46 Yeah, “the daughter ye shall save alive.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:48:49 That’s right. And now in Chapter 2, they’re beginning with the daughter. Here’s one of those daughters that was saved alive.

Hank Smith: 00:48:57 It’s almost as if Pharaoh sealed his own fate by saving those daughters.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:49:02 Yes, because here she is, this daughter of Levi who is going to bring forth the deliverer, the savior of Israel. She’s so good. We learn later on what her name is. Verse 2, there’s no doubt that Moses wants the creation connection here.

John Bytheway: 00:49:25 “And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:49:32 We read that all the time and it sounds, “Okay. All right, I got it. Let’s keep going.” Did you notice …

John Bytheway: 00:49:36 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:49:36 Did you notice …

John Bytheway: 00:49:38 Saw that it was good.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:49:40 This is almost word for word what God says in Genesis Chapter 1:4 when it says, “And God saw the light that it was good.” Hebrew says, “Watere oto kiy-tov.” And God says in Hebrew in Genesis 1:4, he says, “Wayar,” the same verb, “Elohim ha’or,” the light, “kiy-tov,” that it was good. It’s the same word. It’s the same phrase.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:50:14 So here, we’re getting another. With the new creation of this son, we are connecting it directly to God and the creation.

Hank Smith: 00:50:25 Yeah, that’s the idea that God did this. God saw that this was good. Here comes God’s plan. God is inserting himself into the story.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:50:34 That’s right, through the daughter, that she is acting like God as a creator.

Hank Smith: 00:50:41 That even comes through in the English, “She saw that he was good.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:50:44 Underline that and there should be a footnote below. I don’t know if there is. There should be a footnote that says, “Genesis Chapter 1:4.”

John Bytheway: 00:50:52 There is now.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:50:52 And then, verse 3, verse 3 is that famous event. This is where the movie starts.

John Bytheway: 00:51:01 “And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river’s brink.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:51:14 That’s a fancy way of saying she put him in some kind of a basket-type vessel. In Hebrew, it’s a little more specific on how it’s made. But the translation there is spot on. They call the little vessel an ark.

Hank Smith: 00:51:30 There’s got to be some harkening back to Genesis there, right?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:51:33 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:51:33 That saving thing.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:51:36 It’s a saving vessel, right?

Hank Smith: 00:51:39 Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:51:39 It’s the same word as Noah’s ark, tevah, except Noah’s tevah or ark was this huge thing that was saving all of God’s creations, right? The flood is just a reversal of creation. It’s the same words as creation but it’s a reversal. Remember, in the creation, God separates the waters above and beneath. The flood is the windows are open and the plugs are unplugged. And all the water, the primordial water comes back in and then it comes back out, and we have this new creation.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:52:16 The only thing that survives is the tevah, the ark. And remember, an ark is an interesting vessel. It has no steering, there’s no rudder. And the plans that God gave Noah, it goes with the flow, right? Wherever it is being led, God guides it.

Hank Smith: 00:52:34 There’s a lot of book of Ether there, too.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:52:37 God is guiding these vessels. It has no steering, the baby is not going to steer it. But God guides it down the river to where it needs to go. We know the story, right?

John Bytheway: 00:52:49 “And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river side; and when she saw the ark among the flags, she sent her maid to fetch it.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:53:00 There is that word ark again. She sees the tevah. We have daughter of Pharaoh now and we have the ark. We have her maidens. In Hebrew, it’s naarot which is young women. So, these are all females who are fashioning the progress of this plan. Isn’t that interesting? And so here, she takes the ark and she says something interesting in verse 6.

Hank Smith: 00:53:32 “And when she opened it, she saw the child: and behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him and said, ‘This is one of the Hebrews’ children.'”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:53:41 It could be translated, “This is one of the Hebrew boys,” probably knows of her father’s decree.

Hank Smith: 00:53:50 Right. He told all the people.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:53:52 He told all the people. And here, she’s saying, “This is one of the Hebrew boys.” Later on, we learn that she has Moses’s sister who is watching all of this. And Moses’s sister approaches the daughter of Pharaoh and says, “The child is crying because it’s probably hungry and needs to be fed.” So, the sister arranges to bring in Moses’s mother to nurse him.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:54:26 And then in verse 10, a number of years or months have gone by and here, the mother of Moses and the family of Moses, she brings him back to the daughter of Pharaoh. Imagine these two parents, this family, this Hebrew family has to make these decisions, life-and-death situations and decisions, the saving of this child. And here, in order to save him, the mother brings him back to the daughter of Pharaoh. This is really precious time.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:55:03 In verse 10, we learned what is his name. Now, remember, the scroll is called Shemot, the names. This is going to be important.

John Bytheway: 00:55:14 “And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, ‘Because I drew him out of the water.'”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:55:24 Okay. In Hebrew, it says that she called his name Mosheh in Hebrew. She called his name Mosheh because she drew him out of the water. Now, the word for drawing out of the water is the same word, mashah. So, it says, “I called him Mosheh because mashah, I drew him out of the water.” Now, that’s the Hebrew perspective because we know him as Moses, not Mosheh. In the Christian world or in the English Bible, they translated it Moses, not Mosheh, which is interesting.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:56:01 Now, where are we getting that name? The children of the pharaoh especially the kings had to be born of a certain god in order to be the son of god. So, you have different gods. You have the god Tut, the god Amun, the god Ra. So, they would name the kings after these gods, begotten of Ra, Ra-Moses. Moses means begotten of. Tut-Moses, begotten of Tut, the god Tut. Ah-Moses, begotten of Amun. So, Moses means begotten of.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:56:41 And so, the Egyptian kings have all these son of god name, Ra-Moses, Tut-Moses, Ah-Moses, Ka-Moses and so on and so forth. They don’t know where this one came from. So, instead of saying that he was begotten of a god, the daughter of Pharaoh an Egyptian just called him Moses, begotten of question mark. He’s the Nile baby, the mystery baby.

Hank Smith: 00:57:06 Begotten of question mark, I like that.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:57:07 Question mark, Moses. And that’s where we’re getting the English version. Moses is from the Egyptian and not the Hebrew. But Jews today, everybody knows Mosheh. They don’t call him Moses, they call him Mosheh all day long.

John Bytheway: 00:57:23 I love that you’re talking about this because I had heard this before. And it just changed Moses Chapter 1 for me where the Lord repeats three times, “Thou art my son,” because his name implies son of nobody, drew out of the water, I guess. And to have the Lord say, “You’re not Ra-Moses, you’re my son, you’re not son of Ra,” which is just how he repeats it.

John Bytheway: 00:57:52 And then, Satan comes along and Son of Man, but that idea of identity is … And him learning that from God in Moses Chapter 1 makes this part of the story really wonderful.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:58:04 So good. Now, remember, Moses grows up in this Egyptian house, the house of the daughter of Pharaoh and Pharaoh. And he’s inundated with the Egyptian culture. So, he’s surrounded by all these Ra-Moses, Tut-Moses, Ka-Moses and so forth. This is why on the mountain, when he is discovering who he really is, that’s why what you’re saying, John, in the book of Moses is so significant.

Hank Smith: 00:58:35 Yeah, he’s going to have to unlearn some things.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:58:38 He has to unlearn everything. You see how we can relate this to ourselves. Sometimes, we come from backgrounds or families that have to make difficult decisions that are living in times that are challenging. And sometimes we feel like we’re being sent down the Nile.

Hank Smith: 00:59:02 We can’t steer.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:59:03 Randomly, we can’t steer and we end up somewhere.

Hank Smith: 00:59:06 I find myself in denial all the time.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:59:11 I was waiting. I’ve been waiting for someone to do that …

John Bytheway: 00:59:15 And getting away from this pyramid scheme. Yeah.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:59:18 There you go. There you go. It feels that way sometimes and we grow up in a culture that may not be telling us exactly who we are. Something needs to happen. And God is usually, of course, watching and officiating over each one of our lives. Something needs to happen where we need to be led to this discovery of who we really are. And this is what’s going to happen next with Mosheh. And fast forward to him leaving Egypt.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 00:59:52 In verse 11, immediately the next verse, it says that Moses grows up and he starts to witness this inequality between the Hebrews and the Egyptian. John, can you read 11?

John Bytheway: 01:00:06 Okay. Verse 11 of Exodus 2. “And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens; and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:00:21 Do you notice this word brothers now?

John Bytheway: 01:00:24 Yeah. And I’ve always wanted to know, in the movies, it’s like he discovered it. He didn’t know. Did he know growing up that he was a Hebrew?

Hank Smith: 01:00:34 There’s no way to know, is there?

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:00:35 It doesn’t appear that he knows at this point because remember, we learn from other writings like Josephus. Josephus expounds, the Jewish historian expounds a little bit on the story. And he tells us that Pharaoh sends Moses on all kinds of other missions. He’s a great military leader. He’s a general. He’s a great warrior, it says. And he’s distracted. He’s going the opposite direction of where he should be going. Okay. That’s Pharaoh’s plan for Him.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:01:09 God’s plan is a little bit different. At some point, it looks like he’s realizing he’s not Egyptian. “You know what? I’m really tired of people calling me Moses, begotten of nobody. Why am I so different than Ra-Moses over there, my brother and Tut-Moses over there, the great king of there? Why am I different?” And I think the Lord is prompting him. He’s preparing him for this great discovery of who he really is. Okay.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:01:41 So, he gets a sense. And in the text, it says that he calls the Egyptians his brothers. And he starts calling the Hebrews his brothers which is curious. It looks like he’s starting to understand. But he notices that the Egyptian is beating the Hebrew, it says. Now, these words are going to start being important. So, this word is he’s beating. In the next verse, this is when Moses looks around.

John Bytheway: 01:02:12 I like this. “And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:02:20 We get the connotation that Moses is angry or upset. He is killing this guy. Well, it says in Hebrew, it uses a specific word because there are specific words for killing. There’s multiple words. And they’re specifically used throughout the book of Exodus and in Genesis to tell you what kind of a death it is. Here, it says that Moses struck the Egyptian. It doesn’t say that he killed him. I don’t think he’s trying to kill this Egyptian. I think he’s trying to get him off of that Hebrew.

Hank Smith: 01:02:57 He’s trying to say, “Back off.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:02:59 It says that he struck him. So, I would translate it, “He struck the Egyptian.” Then he realizes, “Oops, I forgot I’m really good at the striking stuff.”

John Bytheway: 01:03:10 I don’t know my own strength.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:03:12 I killed the guy. That’s right. So, he buries him in the sand, it says.

Hank Smith: 01:03:16 So, almost as if it’s an accident.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:03:19 Almost. It’s just an interesting word. Why aren’t they using the word to kill?

John Bytheway: 01:03:24 Because that was not his intent.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:03:27 I think so. That’s what I’m getting. Now, remember, in the garden or just outside of the garden scene, in Chapter 4 of Genesis. Remember, Cain, he doesn’t do this word. They don’t say that he did this word, naka. Naka, it says, to Abel. The word they used for Cain is this word, harag. Harag doesn’t mean just to kill, it means to slaughter. It’s not the word for kill.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:03:58 For example, later on in the 10 Commandments that we’ll see in the next episode, that’s a different word. That’s ratzach. Ratzach means to murder somebody. Harag means to slaughter somebody. Okay. It’s what you do to an animal. That’s what Cain did to Abel. This is not what Moses is doing to the Egyptian. And it’s not the word ratzach that says, “Thou shalt not kill,” it’s not that word either.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:04:28 So, some folks might think, “Well, Moses, there was the Ten Commandments that’s coming that says, ‘Thou shalt not kill,’ and Moses is killing. How do you justify this?” Well, Hebrew already justified it. It says not the same, it’s a different word. Now, what happens which is curious in verse 14, Moses comes upon some other Hebrews. And the Hebrew says, “Ha, there’s the guy over there that killed the Egyptian.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:04:56 Now, the word they used there is harag. The perception of the Hebrews towards this Egyptian is he slaughtered that guy. It’s very bad. But he didn’t because that’s not the word they use. It’s naka. So, this might be semantics. But I do know that Hebrew is very specific in the words they’re using. So, this is why Moses gets nervous and he says, “These guys are going to start spreading the word that I killed this Egyptian.” And sure enough, that happens. And they’re using the word harag. Pharaoh finds out about it, he hears.

Hank Smith: 01:05:31 “Now, when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh and dwelt in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well.”

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:05:41 Okay. Now, the word that it says for Pharaoh, what Pharaoh is going to do to Moses is harag. It’s the same word that they’re accusing Moses of. It’s the same word that Cain does to Abel. That’s what Pharaoh is going to do to Moses.

Hank Smith: 01:06:01 That’s his intention, okay.

Anthony Riveras Jr.: 01:06:03 That’s his intention. He’s not going to throw him in jail. He’s not going to beat him up. He’s not going to cut off his hand. He’s not going to banish him. He is going to slaughter him. Moses fled, it literally says from before the face of Pharaoh, he says. And he dwelled in the land of Midian. So, here we are. Moses’s journey of discovery has begun.

Hank Smith: 01:06:35 Please join us for Part II of this podcast.