Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:10 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together, we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:00:20 Welcome everyone to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I am here with my amazing technicolor co-host, John Bytheway. John Bytheway.

John Bytheway: 00:00:36 I grew up in the black and white era of the Andy Griffith Show. So technicolor was a big deal when I was a kid. They used to say in color on TV.

Hank Smith: 00:00:45 Yeah.

Lili Anderson: 00:00:46 There were a lot of good life lessons out of Andy Griffith, by the way.

John Bytheway: 00:00:49 Oh, best show ever.

Lili Anderson: 00:00:51 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:00:52 John knows every episode. I’ve heard most of them. I’ve never seen them, but I’ve watched them from John. Yeah. John, you’re amazing technicolor because we are talking about one of the most famous stories ever. So we wanted to bring on a guest who could help us understand this incredible story even better. Tell us who’s with us.

John Bytheway: 00:01:12 Absolutely. And she is back. We’ve had Sister Anderson before. Lili de Hoyos Anderson is a first generation American. Her mother is French and her father is Mexican. She grew up in Indiana, but when she started high school, both her parents began teaching at BYU. So the family moved to Provo and she graduated from Provo High School, graduated from BYU in sociology and married Chris Anderson. They had eight children in 12 years. They are affectionately referred to as the alphabet kids, I love this, because their names are Adam, Bethany, Caitlin, Dominic, Eden, Faith, Grayden, and Harper. After almost 20 years of being a full-time homemaker, Sister Anderson decided to return to school, complete a master’s in social work from UNLV and a PhD in marriage, family, and human development from BYU, where she taught for several years in the School of Family Life. She’s a licensed clinical social worker, has a private practice in individual, marriage, and family counseling. And she has a new podcast called Choosing Glory. Do you want to tell us more about that, Lili?

Lili Anderson: 00:02:18 Well, it’s all because I was a guest on followHIM. This was not on my radar. I just thought I would have a fun time being a guest with you guys last year. I got a lot of feedback from people who encouraged me to consider this and particularly my children-in-law, which was really, really a great compliment, that they were like, “It’s good to have another voice out there.” I finally took the plunge, did a lot of praying about it, but felt like it would be something to try. So I have really enjoyed that.

John Bytheway: 00:02:50 I like what you said, Lili, another voice out there. And that’s how we look at it. We are so thankful that there are so many other voices out there defending-

Hank Smith: 00:02:59 Absolutely.

John Bytheway: 00:02:59 Truth and defending Joseph Smith and things like that. So that’s great.

Hank Smith: 00:03:03 Lili, let’s jump in. Tell us about Joseph and his family, what he did.

Lili Anderson: 00:03:07 Most of us have had this soundtrack of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream going through our heads as we’ve read about Joseph. And it is a delightful little production piece, not always exactly accurate, but we forgive it because it’s so clever. And it does highlight, in really quite a generous and lovely way, this amazing, amazing prophet. So really a privilege to talk about Joseph. I wanted to start with just a kind of a perspective, and maybe you’ve discussed this before. Genesis particularly is a very brief sketch of this history. And I think it’s good for people to remember, give it a little latitude. When there’s something that we don’t fully understand, we can speculate about some things, but the record is pretty scanty. I mean, I looked up some things when I started again on the Old Testament this year. The entire book covers about 4,000 years, right? And it’s in just under 1,200 pages.

Hank Smith: 00:04:00 You may miss something along the way.

Lili Anderson: 00:04:04 Even more extreme is that Genesis covers over half of those 4,000 years. It covers about 2,200 years. The estimates vary a little bit, but it’s pretty close to that. So we’re talking about 55% of the time period covered by the Old Testament is covered in 6.5% of the total length of the book. And as you said, it’s not exactly proportionate because we do spend more time on Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. So there are a few more chapters devoted to that, but nevertheless, we’re talking about 78 pages in Genesis that have 50 chapters and we’re covering 2,200 years. So I just want people to appreciate that. If there are things that they feel are not fully fleshed out, well, that’s right. That’s right. This is a pretty brief record of these marvelous and amazing events. And nevertheless, we have this record preserved so that we can learn from these amazing people who lived at the beginning of the world and established these believers.

Lili Anderson: 00:05:06 We have strong believers, these patriarchs that came down and the women that were with them. So just be patient. As we read this book, I hope everybody can be a little patient and understand that there’s much more to be revealed to flesh out these stories, but the themes are clear. The themes are clear and the gospel has been revealed in every dispensation and they had all they needed, as we have all that we need. But we do live in a very generous time. To think that we live in a dispensation, where all these materials are available and on our phones, I hope we’d be a little grateful for that. And further, I wanted to mention too, that we’ve read these past chapters and so on and we see that there was so much wickedness, especially prior to the flood, but even after the flood. It’s not a large group of people who are true believers.

Lili Anderson: 00:05:55 And I think, again, how great a blessing it is to live in a dispensation where there are so many believers and we can connect so easily with believers worldwide. And we have a worldwide connection with other people who, not just of our faith, but many Christians in the world who do believe the Bible and study the Bible and believe in Jesus Christ. So that really struck me too this year again, as I started reviewing the Old Testament, because I thought it must have been a lonely time. It must have been a lonely time and I think there’s evidence that Joseph went through periods of real loneliness, on his own. And we don’t usually have to be that lonely. So really an impressive time, an impressive time that these people on their own with very few people to support them could choose to believe and to be so incredibly faithful and idol worship is all around.

Lili Anderson: 00:06:48 So here we have Joseph come into this family and what a family it is! Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, who becomes Israel, and then this tenth son, Joseph, who is the birthright son because of his righteousness, but okay, I’m a counselor. So I have to say there was a lot of family dysfunction. We have some really good evidence of intergenerational family dysfunction.

Hank Smith: 00:07:15 I love that you said that. Lili, I’ve noticed, something I’ve probably never noticed before, I probably should have, but Genesis seems to set up a problem and what’s the answer is this family. The answer to the wickedness on the earth is a family and they’re a very imperfect family yet, they’re still the family.

Lili Anderson: 00:07:37 Well, let me share a little moment that I had when I was probably 11 or 12 years old. My mother was a counselor who later got a PhD in sociology, but she did have a master’s in social work also. So she was talking about maladjustment, people who are not functioning in a completely healthy way. And generally because they’ve been hurt, something was hurtful or painful or traumatic in their lives and their response to that wasn’t maybe as healthy or complete because our resources are limited, especially when we’re young. So I’m listening to my mother talk about this. I’m still pretty young and I said, “Well, mom, how many people are maladjusted?” And she said, “Well, Lili, everyone’s maladjusted.”

Hank Smith: 00:08:18 That’s what I thought.

Lili Anderson: 00:08:19 You saw that one coming, didn’t you? And I was shocked. I’m like, “Ah!” It was such a valuable message, such a valuable message because, of course, she didn’t stop there, but she talked about the hope that exists for us to overcome our weaknesses and make them into strengths through Jesus Christ. And that’s really the goal. But to add to that, my husband had this brilliant insight. One time he was reading through Ether 12:27 again, where it says that God is saying, “I give unto men weakness that they may be humble and my grace is sufficient for all men who humble themselves and have faith in me and I can make your weakness strong.” It’s this amazing promise. That really is so much of what we’re going to talk about today. But my husband was sitting there reading that and pondering on it and he looked up and he said, “Did you know, instead of saying, “I give unto men weakness,” God could just as accurately have said, “I give unto men families.” “I give unto men parents.”

Lili Anderson: 00:09:11 And again, we had our eight children by then and I was like, wait, “That has the resonance of truth, the piercing resonance of truth,” because none of us get perfect parents and none of us are perfect parents. And that is the plan. Now let me be clear, this is not a free pass to be a lousy parent. We are asked by God to be diligent in trying to become good parents. I’ve said before that the product of parenting is not really the child, it’s the parent because this is a journey. This is a journey. And it’s a fabulous, refining journey, if we allow it to be because in our efforts to become better parents, we become better people. And we can, if we’re doing it right, become much more like the savior Jesus Christ. And it is a journey. But there’s a balance in there.

Hank Smith: 00:10:03 Lili, I used to tell my dad, “You sure got a lot nicer as you got older.”

Lili Anderson: 00:10:10 Surprise.

Hank Smith: 00:10:12 I remember thinking, just before he passed away, “That’s not my father. That is a really nice old man. Who is that?” Right? And I think that was-

Lili Anderson: 00:10:23 Who did you become?

Hank Smith: 00:10:25 Yeah, like you said, it was part of the process.

Lili Anderson: 00:10:27 So let’s just make a quick review, okay. So we’re going back to Abraham’s father Terah, and think how disturbing this can be for a child. He worships Jehovah sometimes, but then he goes back to the idols. That’s very confusing to children sometimes, that bounce, sometimes a fervent believer and other times a fervent pagan. And then of course, culminating with his offering and taking Abraham to be sacrificed to this false God. And if it hadn’t been for the angel coming, it would’ve happened. And then, of course, it’s still not safe for Abraham. So the spirit tells him, “Get out of Dodge. You’re just going to have to leave.”

Hank Smith: 00:11:05 You’ve got to leave.

Lili Anderson: 00:11:06 “Because this is not a safe place.” And then look what it says in Abraham chapter one, and this is so beautiful. Let me just turn to that for a second. This was pointed out… I don’t even remember the lady who was talking about this once, but I remember just being really impressed by it. Abraham says in chapter one, and this is before he gets these promises or callings from the Lord, verse two, “He was a follower of righteousness.” This is kind of halfway through, “Desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge and to be a great follower of righteousness and to possess a greater knowledge,” and then look at this, “And to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, desiring to receive…” The king wanted to be the father and think how this makes sense.

Lili Anderson: 00:11:48 If you think of it kind of from a counseling perspective, he had father issues. His father was a jerk in a really unstable, very dangerous, couldn’t have been someone that Abraham felt really comfortable with or had a great experience with. He has to leave, but he wants to be a good father. He wants to fulfill this opportunity that God gives us, if we are able to marry and have children, to be a father that is a good father and a father of many nations. He wants us to go on and to have a posterity that can be different from what he grew up with. So what happens? Well, his wife can’t have a child. So you’re like, “Wow, wow. God’s not kidding around.” They are tests in life. And then finally we have the handmaiden in Hagar there who is able to bear a son to him, Ishmael.

Lili Anderson: 00:12:42 So we don’t know how old Ishmael was, but finally, when Sarah conceives a child, God tells Abraham, “Send Ishmael away.” Can you imagine how that felt to him? “Are you kidding? I want to be a good father. Not like the father I had, I want to be a good father. And now you want me to be a bad father. You want me to reject this child?” It must have been such an amazing test, maybe part of that Abrahamic test even started there. And then God makes him a promise, “Don’t worry. I’m going to take care of him and his mother and he’ll become a great nation.” So then he has this child of promise, Isaac. Must have been so filled with joy. Now he didn’t get a lot of children, but okay, he has this child of promise and Isaac is a righteous man now. And Isaac’s about 35-ish probably. Then God says, “Okay, now sacrifice… Do to Isaac what your father tried to do to you, but don’t worry because I’m the real God.”

Lili Anderson: 00:13:39 I mean, are we aware of what an Abrahamic test really is? It gets us right in our hangups, God wants us to overcome.

Hank Smith: 00:13:48 That’s his trauma from his childhood.

Lili Anderson: 00:13:50 That’s his trauma, that’s his trauma. And God’s like-

John Bytheway: 00:13:54 I tried a long time to forget this.

Lili Anderson: 00:13:56 That’s right. That’s right. And he is like, “No, I can make your weaknesses strong. We can overcome all of this. We can overcome all of this.” And you know what? It says so beautifully that Abraham got up early the next morning to comply with that. I mean, some of us would’ve slept in. I mean, maybe I’m not in a hurry to go and do this, but Abraham has such an amazing trust in God and is so, so fixed in his righteousness that, “I will do what the Lord commands,” even though this is hitting right on his soft spot.

Lili Anderson: 00:14:31 So he goes, and of course we know that he is not required that he fulfill that. But he passes the test. Isaac also must have had a pretty traumatic test there because he probably easily could have wrestled that knife away from his aged father, but he was willing to submit because he also has this great testimony and becomes the next great patriarch. But look at the next hangup, he has twins and he favors one, never a great dynamic. Never a great dynamic, but he just has this sort of kinship with Esau, who’s an outdoors guy, who’s kind of a match for him. Isaac kind of connects.

Lili Anderson: 00:15:09 And Jacob’s a great guy, really a great guy because he is righteous and Esau really isn’t and he marries outside the covenant. Rebekah has to use some subterfuge to get the birthright blessing to Jacob. Now, I’ve mentioned this and I’m sure this has been talked about, but I just want to review that obviously you can’t steal a birthright. I mean, God would not endorse a stolen birthright. Isaac was a little weak in this particular place. It just hit on his soft spot, I suppose. But he gets it. And when Esau comes and says, “So you’re not going to bless me?” I mean, “And have you nothing left for me?” And Isaac could have said, “No, your brother stole it. I’m giving you the real birthright.”

Lili Anderson: 00:15:48 I mean, there would’ve been nothing to stop him from conferring a birthright on Esau, had Esau deserved it and been worthy and righteous. But the trick there just kind of brought Isaac’s awareness again to the forefront that, “No, Jacob is the birthright son.” But now Esau wants to kill Jacob so Jacob has to also leave town. So we’re still seeing a lot of trauma here.

Hank Smith: 00:16:12 Yeah. This is a fun… What is the fun in dysfunctional? This is wow.

Lili Anderson: 00:16:17 It’s a fun in dysfunctional. Wow.

Hank Smith: 00:16:19 Goodness.

Lili Anderson: 00:16:20 Okay. I’m going to make some conclusions here in a moment, but we see him now go to his uncle Laban and Laban’s a son of  God. So he loves Rachel. He worked seven years and gets Leah and look at the dysfunction that comes between those two sisters. Because even though, “Okay, well I’ll stay with Leah for a week. And then I’ll let you marry Rachel,” who was really the love of Jacob. And now Leah is jealous, but now Rachel’s jealous too, because Leah can have children and she can’t. So there’s a lot of competition and this goes on through the chapters. We read about that, right? Even that one time that Leah’s son comes back with mandrakes and Rachel’s like, “Hey, can I have some?” ” No, you already have my husband. I’m not going to give you my mandrakes, too.”

Lili Anderson: 00:17:04 And she says, “Well, okay, I’ll just switch this and Jacob can sleep with you tonight.” It’s pretty bizarre stuff. Now it is a sketchy record, but we see this, we see this. And it even says of Leah that she was hated, that she was hated. You think the sons didn’t know that? So these sons of Jacob that are born to Leah, and then to Bilhah and Zilpah competing to have children, because that’s why Rachel says, “Well here, maybe my handmaid can give you children for me.” And then Leah does the same and then Leah has a couple more. And you know what it says of Leah? It’s so sad. It says, “Maybe now my husband will love me because I’ve given him six sons.” I mean, all these years later, she’s still like, “Maybe now he’ll stay with me.”

Lili Anderson: 00:17:48 So there’s a lot of pain here. Trouble continues. Now we have Joseph who comes in and he’s hated by his older brothers because not only is he the child of Jacob’s old age, but he’s the child of Rachel. And let’s give him credit where credit’s due, Joseph is good. Joseph is righteous. The other brothers are not. I mean, they represent the 12 tribes of Israel, but that doesn’t mean they were righteous. Reuben has defiled his father’s bed with Bilhah and they all have their issues and they don’t like Jacob. And maybe they just saw how much pain that their mothers went through, particularly Leah for being the non-favored wife.

Hank Smith: 00:18:34 I’m feeling a little bit better about the drama in my family, both the family I grew up in and the family I have now. I’m like, “Okay, maybe it’s to be expected, a little drama, a little jealousy, some problems, some hatred.”

John Bytheway: 00:18:48 Yeah. I was going to say I think I’ve used that word and you used it a few times here, dysfunction, and maybe we ought to define it because I’ve used it because I think I know what it means. It’s like not functioning right. But what is dysfunction?

Lili Anderson: 00:19:01 Well, it means unhealthy ways of responding. So we talk about hangups, from decades ago we used that word hangups, everybody has hangups, and that really is the same thing. It means that I was hurt in a certain area and my response to it wasn’t that great. And how could it have been? Especially because a lot of these traumas happen when we’re young and they may not be full blown traumas, but they’re hurt and there’s jealousies within families or parents have their own stuff.

Lili Anderson: 00:19:29 And if we go back a generation, like we are just talking about this generation after generation of pain, we can understand why people don’t handle things perfectly. Because things weren’t handled perfectly for them either. So they end up with these hangups and then they pass them along, not because they’re bad people. I do want to mention specifically, and I think this is really important that we find a sweet spot in the middle of all this. Meaning that we need to make some decisions. For instance, it’s not okay to just say, “Well, then I have a free pass to be a crummy parent.” No, we don’t, we don’t, we are responsible.

John Bytheway: 00:20:05 I can blame my behavior on my past.

Lili Anderson: 00:20:09 We are responsible and there are, again, some amazing examples of people, like these people we’re talking about, who did have injuries in their youth or in their lives, but didn’t let that give them an excuse for becoming slugs or terrible people or angry people or vicious breakers of their covenant. No, I want to be good, I still want to be good, and I’m going to allow that healing process to continue in me and trust in the Lord that he can make my weaknesses into strengths if I pursue this path. So no free pass on being a lousy parent, I hope we are all diligent in those efforts. But again, the sweet spot is not expecting ourselves to be perfect and recognizing that, okay, our kids may end up with a few hams that we developed.

Lili Anderson: 00:20:55 Well, we need to be as supportive and accepting of that as we can. But that doesn’t mean that we condone sin, doesn’t mean that we just throw out the rules and say that like, “Well, because life is hard, doesn’t matter if you’re good.” Yes, it does. It absolutely matters. Again, that’s the point, is can we through all the tribulation of this life continue to choose Christ, to continue to come to Christ and be saved? There is this sweet spot. Like you said, we don’t want to blame, we don’t want to act like that gives me a free pass to be a jerk myself or to be unkind or messed up. We should be working toward the functional life that God wants, that he invites us all to have.

Lili Anderson: 00:21:35 Another point though however, is to not deny that we’re hurt. It helps to recognize those things and to process them through prayer, through some cathartic writing perhaps. But anyway, there are lots of things and there are other resources that can help us to process that pain. But denying it is not a good idea. Every once in a while I’ll see clients who maybe have a toxic mother or a toxic father, an abusive parent, one of them or both, maybe somebody who was incredibly critical and really did a lot of damage when they were growing up because it really affected their self image and created some serious insecurities. And they’ll say, “But my parents are really wonderful people and I need to honor my father and mother.” So they keep going to visit a lot and they spend a lot of time with parents who are still hurtful. And I’m like, “Hang on, that’s not required either. Honoring your father and mother doesn’t mean that you have to put yourself in harm’s way.”

Lili Anderson: 00:22:27 So if you have an unhealthy relationship where there really is abuse, I’m not talking about imperfection here, but I’m talking about toxic stuff, somebody who is really cruel or unkind or degrading or demeaning are dangerous in some way, then don’t put yourself in their path. Abraham left because his father was toxic and that’s not a bad pattern. It didn’t mean that he didn’t honor his father, but honoring our father and mother doesn’t mean that we’re going to agree with them, that we’re going to ignore things that aren’t correct or that are dangerous. So there’s that sweet spot. Like I said, I think we can find it, I know we can find it. And if we need help, we should get help. But we can find that space where we’re safe.

Lili Anderson: 00:23:12 And I would say that honoring our father and mother means that we can always be grateful for life. They gave us life, they were the instruments through which we come to the earth. If we’ve made it to adulthood, that’s a blessing, that’s a blessing. And our parents probably taught us some things that were valuable. I remember talking to a guy, his father was really abusive, but he said, “You know what, he was such a hard worker and I learned to work from my dad. And I’ll always be grateful for that.” And we can have compassion for the fact that they were hurt too. Because what do we say? Hurt people hurt people. So we can have some compassion and we don’t have to try to condemn, we don’t know enough to condemn. God’s going to take all of the right stuff into consideration, he sees everything perfectly in the heart, in the mind, and all the circumstances. So we don’t have to worry about that.

Lili Anderson: 00:23:58 And it’s not our business to make a final judgment about our parents, but we need to make an intermediate judgment and say, is it safe for me to continue to have a relationship with them or not? And I don’t have to believe everything that they believe. I need to believe what the Lord tells me to believe. That’s what Abraham did. Great example of that, by the way. And these men all chose to follow God in spite of whatever hurt. So that’s the takeaway, find that sweet spot. Too often we have a victim mentality in our world where, as you were saying, John, it’s just like, “Well, it’s my mother’s fault, my father’s fault, or the devil made me do it.”

Hank Smith: 00:24:31 Therefore I give up.

Lili Anderson: 00:24:33 Yeah, I give up, I’m not responsible.

John Bytheway: 00:24:35 The free pass you say.

Lili Anderson: 00:24:35 The free pass. And then don’t give up on the goal because we are in a dispensation now where we have the opportunity to try  to build Zion families. We can choose that path and teach the principles of Zion and yes, encourage our children. They’ll choose for themselves as children do, but we can give them a good start. And this is the time, this is the time. We are invited now to establish Zion individually. We’re not called as a group yet, the prophet will call when the time is right. But individually, we have everything we need, we have the covenants of the temple, we have access to the priesthood powers, we can work to be Zion. So don’t give up just because life is hard, so find that sweet spot.

Lili Anderson: 00:25:19 Harold B. Lee used to say, “The gospel of Jesus Christ is to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable.” And so let’s find that sweet spot. Be comforted in our imperfection and the imperfections of our families, the dysfunctions, but let’s not get too comfortable with that. Let’s keep working on improvement. The Lord can heal, he can heal all our wounds. What an amazing gift that is. And we sell ourselves short and we sell the Lord short if we don’t work to receive that great gift of healing. It’s available, it’s totally available. So don’t settle, don’t be a victim.

Hank Smith: 00:25:57 I really like this. It’s like we live in a fallen world and families are going to have problems. Make sure you’re inserting compassion and repentance into the equation every day. Compassion for others, for yourself. Try to repent, turn it around. Just every day I think for me as a parent, if I can keep inserting compassion and repentance, I can have access to that healing power.

John Bytheway: 00:26:24 I like too, that Lili said that it comes to a point where if it’s toxic, you got to go. And Abraham just left and Nephi after Lehi died, just, “I have to go.” I like that idea of a sweet spot. If it gets toxic, you don’t have to stay. But everything you just said, Hank, about compassion and everything. Where is that spot exactly? That’s the challenge, finding the sweet spot.

Hank Smith: 00:26:51 John, I tell my kids that all the time when they’re, “So and so hurt me, so and so hurt me.” Try to remember hurt people, hurt people.

John Bytheway: 00:26:58 There’s something going on with them.

Lili Anderson: 00:27:00 Another thing I say is that healthy people never attack. And that’s a good one for your kids too and for all of us. But kids need to know that, that people aren’t in a good place when they’re attacking. So let’s again know what’s going on here. And that’s incredibly helpful if we realize that the only one who can really define us is God. So if we can go to God and let him reveal to us who we really are, we’re safe. The other voice is, however well intended they are, are not going to give us a perfect idea of who we are anyway as who sees us clearly but God. But don’t let ourselves get defined by other people.

Lili Anderson: 00:27:38 And I really believe that’s what happens here in this dynasty, is that these people, they let themselves be defined by God. Which doesn’t mean there weren’t still these hangups that show up every once in a while. And then we talk about Joseph comes into a tough situation. His mother is the loved one, but there’s been all this tension in the family. And he’s already got these 10 brothers who are just poised to hate him. The one thing they’ve got going is that Rachel doesn’t have children and then she has a son. He didn’t even have to do anything to be a hiss a by-word in the family. And then he’s righteous and Jacob loves him. It says he loved him because he was a child at his old age. But that’s not the only reason, he loves him because he’s a child of promise, because he’s willing to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and to live it. So Jacob has all these other sons who are really not interested in that.

Lili Anderson: 00:28:28 And think about it, they’re surrounded by idolatry. This is a lonely path, not like today where we have lots of good people if we choose to seek them out. But they were on their own, even Laban, Rachel’s and Leah’s father had his little images. Remember he has his idols. And when he comes chasing after Jacob, he wants them back. And you’re like, “Wait a minute, you knew better.” And he did know better, but anyway. So they’re surrounded by this stuff all the time. And the brothers all cave into it at one level or another. And then they all hate Joseph, who then let’s be clear, he’s about 17 by the time he’s sold into slavery. But he’s not super mature or wise about handling those dreams.

Hank Smith: 00:29:14 He has not read “How to win friends and influence people”.

Lili Anderson: 00:29:17 Could he had been a little diplomatic and maybe just told that to his father? Who didn’t even like the second dream where the sun and the moon bowed to his star as well, they’re his mother and father. And even Jacob was a little bit tweaked at that and he is like, “Really, should my mother and I bow down to thee?” But then it says that he remembered those things, he kept them. So he knew that there was a prophecy coming in those dreams. And he knew that Joseph was this child of promise. He’s a little irritated perhaps by the blunt nature of the dream and Joseph’s not very wise. I remember I was talking about this with my son and daughter-in-law and some of their kids and my son to his kids and he goes, “See now, I talk about that don’t I? You don’t have to tell people everything.” That’s actually good advice. Sometimes we should keep our own counsel and not… I’m a talker, so I’m sympathetic to Joseph.

Hank Smith: 00:30:13 I’ve always thought that Lili, that this is probably a bad move on his part. But it doesn’t warrant the response that he gets.

Lili Anderson: 00:30:19 Fair enough.

Hank Smith: 00:30:20 Right.

Lili Anderson: 00:30:20 That’s fair enough.

Hank Smith: 00:30:22 Telling someone your dreams and being a little unwise does not warrant we need to kill you, sell you whatever, get rid of you.

Lili Anderson: 00:30:33 Let’s kill him, yeah, it’s a big response. And then you even wonder, at least I did, I’m like, “Was it a good idea for Jacob to send him to go check on his brothers? Was he really that unaware that…” Anyway, whatever the case is, there is prophecy to be fulfilled and God did have a plan. I want to mention this too, that God works through everybody, righteous and unrighteous. He uses the brothers to accomplish an amazing salvation of Israel. And these tribes that become the covenant people of the Lord. It’s pretty amazing how all of this is God’s economy, he’s so economical. We just accomplish it this way, even though, as it says, and this is in Matthew 18 that it says, “There must be offenses. But woe unto him by whom the offense cometh.” The Lord will use our behaviors, good or bad, to accomplish his purposes. But there will be an accountability for people who sin.

Lili Anderson: 00:31:28 Joseph is sold into slavery and thus begins 13 years give or take of real trouble for Joseph. There are tender mercies in the trouble, but this is real trouble. Let’s mention the coat for a moment. I’m just going to say that, of course, the coat was a mark of Jacob’s not just love, but acceptance of Joseph as the birthright son. Hugh Nibley makes an interesting statement about this in some of his writings, he says, “This was not just a coat of many colors.” In fact, he says in the original text and so on, it doesn’t really mention colors not to ruin the musical for anybody.

Lili Anderson: 00:32:07 But he said it was the priesthood garment that had been handed down in the family and it had marks in it. And he said, instead of colors, it really is extra threads, extra embroidery that created the marks of the garment. So interesting. And they say that when the brothers bring the garment to Jacob stained with blood that Jacob was blind by then. And what he felt were the marks of the garment. And that’s why he knew it was Joseph’s. It was a very powerful symbol to everybody that Joseph was the child of promise in this family and was worthy of that birthright.

Hank Smith: 00:32:48 You bring up Hugh Nibley and it made me think of Alma chapter 46, where there’s this really almost random story that if you read Genesis, you don’t get this in Genesis. But Captain Moroni, it seems to have a story about Joseph’s coat. He says, this is Alma 46:23. “Moroni said unto them, ‘Behold, we are a remnant of the seed of Jacob, we are a remnant of the seed of Joseph, whose coat was rent by his brethren into many pieces. Now behold, let us remember to keep the commandments of God or our garments shall be rent by our brethren.'” And then he talks about this prophecy that’s not in Genesis anywhere, this is verse 24, “Let’s remember the words of Jacob before his death for behold he saw that a part of the remnant of the coat of Joseph was preserved and had not decayed.” And he felt that that was a sign that a remnant of the seed of Joseph would be preserved by the hand of God.

Hank Smith: 00:33:48 And then all of a sudden you brought up Hugh Nibley and I thought, “Oh, Hugh Nibley talked about this very thing.” He said that, “In the 10th century AD,” I have no idea how to say this, “Mohamed Ibraham Atta,” I’m sure I did not do that right, “A Muslim scholar gathered legends about many ancient biblical figures. He preserved one account, not found anywhere else about the coat of Joseph telling how it was torn and how it remained undecayed and what that meant. That lore,” Hugh Nibley says, “Is preserved nowhere else, except our Alma 46. Nibley described it as a quote, “A test no forgery could pass.” Anyway, a little shout out to the Book of Mormon and just a side tangent. So maybe some of our listeners might find that interesting.

Lili Anderson: 00:34:47 I like it, I like it. And I think there is great symbolism and all that. The Lord speaks through those symbols. That’s a beautiful connection. I want to just talk about, now, why bad things happen to good people as we talk about this next stage of Joseph’s life. He’s really a good guy.

John Bytheway: 00:35:01 And he’s so young too.

Lili Anderson: 00:35:03 He’s young.

Hank Smith: 00:35:06 You feel so bad for him. And completely rejected by your family, I’m sure you had clients like this, Lili. Do you get over that ever, this rejection of your siblings?

Lili Anderson: 00:35:21 Yes, but it’s not easy. If it were easy, everybody would get better. So it’s a journey. But again, there’s healing in Christ. I know who the healer is. People are so kind they want to give credit to the counselor sometimes and I’m like, “I know who the healer is and you did the work. I’m happy to be a facilitator of that. It is such a privilege to do that, but I know who the healer is. And I know who can heal.” I know that ultimate healing comes in the resurrection. So we also need not to be impatient about it because it’s a journey. We really can do a lot of healing. So don’t give up, there needs to be this hope in Christ that is hope, of course, for a glorious resurrection, but also hope that our wounds will be healed. And I want to talk more about that as we wrap up in a way because there’s some really, really wonderful culminating messages of hope that we should all take away from this story, right?

Hank Smith: 00:36:16 Growing up with this story and watching the musical, it makes it just so fun. I don’t know how old I was before I realized, “Wait, that would be really traumatic.”

Lili Anderson: 00:36:28 Probably no fun.

Hank Smith: 00:36:28 You wouldn’t sing your way through that.

Lili Anderson: 00:36:31 There’s the one song in the musical where there is a nod to that pain, where he’s alone in the prison.

John Bytheway: 00:36:40 Close every door to me. I love that too. Listening to it in the song, it comes to that point, “Children of Israel are never alone. I have been promised a land of my own.” I saw Donny Osmond in Chicago do that and it was fun to see somebody who-

Lili Anderson: 00:36:53 Was a believer.

Hank Smith: 00:36:55 A member of the church.

John Bytheway: 00:36:57 They’re singing that and it was a great moment. I thought there’s a little bit of testimony in the way he’s belting that out right now.

Hank Smith: 00:37:06 Continue here with why bad things happen to good people. I’m sure there’s nobody listening who has ever had a bad thing happen to them. I can’t imagine this is relevant, but let’s go forward anyway.

Lili Anderson: 00:37:16 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:37:18 I was at a fireside the other night and I asked, it was a youth fireside but a lot of parents were there and I said, “Look around the room at the adults. Raise your hand, adults, if things in your life turned out exactly the way you planned.” And nobody raised their hand.

Lili Anderson: 00:37:31 Isn’t that the truth?

John Bytheway: 00:37:31 Did you notice that? Yeah, bad things happen.

Lili Anderson: 00:37:36 It’s an untender look. Well, they do, they do. Now, I think this is super important to understand that this is not a mistake, this is the plan. And that’s so incredibly important. And I’m sure you’ve all heard this question of students or people that you’ve counseled with as priest, as leaders, and friends that come and say like, “Why” Why?? And they really get stuck in asking, ” Why would this happen to me? Why would God allow this to happen to me?”

Lili Anderson: 00:38:00 And this is incredibly important to understand, because otherwise, it can really lead to bitterness. And sometimes we do see people that get bitter. I remember talking to a woman who went as a non-member to BYU. This was many years ago. And she joined the Church, while she was there. Married a guy that she met there, in the temple, worthily, had two children. And her husband that she’d married in the temple, had multiple affairs. And was finally excommunicated and she ended up divorced.

Lili Anderson: 00:38:30 So she came to see me at a bad stage of her life. And she said, “I’ve only tried to do the right things. I loved the church. I loved the gospel. I joined. My family didn’t want me to. I made sacrifices in obedience. I’ve filled callings. I’ve stayed worthy. I’ve attended the temple. What does the Lord want? And then my life just fell apart.” And she was so bereft. And she was just really at this quandary of like, “Why? Why would this happen? Why does the Lord not…” She said, “All I ever heard…” Oh, I forgot to say this. “All I ever heard when I joined this church, if you do what’s right, you’ll be blessed. If you obey the commandments, you’ll be blessed. If you follow Christ, you’ll be blessed.” And she said, “That’s not my life.” And I said, “Yeah, it is. It is. But let’s talk about that, because you really need to reframe.” I’ve talked about this before. Reframing is one of our most powerful psychological tools. Look again, and see more clearly. Let it be opened unto you, with eyes that see, ears that hear, what it is.

Lili Anderson: 00:39:36 So I want to share this idea that is so powerful to me. I really love it. It comes from a book called Antifragile, which I’ve read most of, but not all of. But I did read the book that first acquainted me with that Antifragile book, called The Coddling of the American Mind. And it was written by Jonathan Haidt, and another guy I forget. But anyway, they’re talking about how some of our generation seem to be becoming weaker, and more entitled, and so on. But let’s talk about something that they say, and I’m going to read from that book. “Nassim Taleb explains how systems and people can survive the inevitable difficulties of life. And like the immune system, grow stronger in response.” So he’s talking about the introduction of a problem, but like our immune system, we can respond in ways that can actually strengthen us. Recognize that some things are antifragile.

Lili Anderson: 00:40:34 Now, I’m going to pause here and explain that he gives some examples. He talks about china, which is made to be fragile. If you drop it on a hard surface, it’s going to break. And other things are made to be more resilient, like plastic. So if you drop it on a hard surface, it probably won’t break. It’s not great for the structural integrity of the plastic to be dropped on hard surfaces, but it’s designed to resist breaking. And it probably won’t. If you do it enough, it might, but definitely made differently from china or glass.

Lili Anderson: 00:41:03 And then he says, “There are some things that are made to be antifragile.” Which, as he says, “Means that they require stresses and challenges in order to learn, adapt, and grow.” He says, “There are three examples here of things that are antifragile. They are created to optimize under stress.” That’s his point, that they don’t fully optimize unless they are stressed. Muscle, he mentions, use it or lose it with muscle. If you don’t use your muscles, they atrophy. Bone, and as we get older, they keep telling us, “You need to do weight-bearing exercise.” Walk and jog, putting some stress on those bones so that they can maintain their strength. His third example, muscle, bone, children. Now, that’s a powerful thought. I love that thought. And really, it’s not just children. It’s the human creature. The child of God is made antifragile. We are created to grow under stress. And we don’t optimize, if we’re not stressed. We just don’t. We become weak.

Lili Anderson: 00:42:14 And going on here with the quote from the book, “Systems that are antifragile become rigid, weak, and inefficient, when nothing challenges them or pushes them to respond vigorously. The modern obsession with protecting young people from feeling unsafe is, we believe, one of the several causes of the rapid rise in the rates of adolescent depression, anxiety, and suicide.” That’s some powerful thinking right there. And I believe it. Because God set up the world to be a big spiritual weight room. That’s what it is. Are we going to build spiritual muscle?

Hank Smith: 00:42:56 Big spiritual weight room.

Lili Anderson: 00:42:56 That’s what it is. And you’re not going to grow that muscle unless you lift some weight, unless you resist. There’s that famous thing from C.S. Lewis about resisting temptation. He said, “None of us know the ultimate strength that it takes because all of us has given in at some point to temptation. Because we are imperfect and all fall short of the glory of God.” And then we, hopefully, get in that path of repentance and stay in it. But Christ understood the full weight of it because he never gave in. Because he was lifting that weight, he was resisting. It’s resistance training. We know this. We understand how this works, that’s how the muscle grows.

Lili Anderson: 00:43:28 Well, how do we think spiritual muscle grows? If we’re wrapped in bubble wrap, if we’re on some Deseret cruise? Where everything’s fine, we’re healthy. There are no problems. Our family is totally functional. And we never get hurt. We never deal with disappointment, or loss, or disaster, or injustice. Because that is a giant test in this life, is how unfair it is. Joseph, prime example. What did he ever do? Like you said, okay, maybe, he could have kept those dreams to himself, but it did not warrant the response. Just as you said, Hank. This is not commensurate with the offense, 13 years as a slave. No, I’m sorry, that’s not fair. It’s not fair. He’s the good one. Why does all this happen? Because God knows we are made antifragile.

Lili Anderson: 00:44:19 Now, this is a hard sell sometimes for me as a counselor. Because I have a lot of people who come in and they have been brainwashed by our society that they’re weak. Although, I recognize that some people struggle. This is not about invalidating people’s pain because there certainly can be chronic depression. There can be chronic anxiety. I understand that. Life is hard. But we can learn from those things and we can become stronger. We are meant to become stronger. That’s the design of the plan.

Lili Anderson: 00:44:51 Joseph, in these years, becomes powerful. And I don’t mean just politically, which also happens to him. He becomes spiritually amazing. How do we see this? Because the Lord favors Joseph. Remember how many times it says that in chapter 39? It keeps saying how people notice that about him. Like Potiphar notices that everything he puts under Joseph’s hand prospers. Because the Lord was with Joseph. That’s the phrase I think, the Lord was with Joseph. And why was he with Joseph? Because Joseph was obedient, in spite of the unfairness of his life.

Lili Anderson: 00:45:27 And that’s the key. That’s the key, is that we not let it knock us off our course, and say, “Well, why should I bother being good? Because my life isn’t fair.” No, it’s because my life isn’t fair, and I choose to be good, that the Lord can be with me. And consecrate my affliction for my good, that’s the promise. That’s the plan. It’s not to avoid affliction. And again, not that we should be looking for trouble. Never look for trouble. There will be enough. But as trouble comes, it’s like, okay, now what am I going to do? Am I going to cave and just say, “Okay, forget it. I’m going to go out and get a drink.” Or am I going to say, “No. No, I’m going to get down on my knees more. I’m going to read, study, pray, ponder. I’m going to reach for that confirming spirit that the Lord is with me, especially when it looks like he isn’t.”

Hank Smith: 00:46:16 Do you remember this? There’s a biosphere in which there is a protected environment to grow trees and bushes and things, and keep it protected and isolated. And then the trees died. And it was because, and they didn’t realize this before, there was no wind.

Lili Anderson: 00:46:34 There was no resistance, that’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:46:36 They didn’t develop what they called the stress, the stress of wood, and the flexibility, to deal with the wind. And they died. So I keep thinking of what you said there, is that some things are designed, they’re made to grow under stress and pressure. And they’ll actually thrive that way. But you’re right. As a parent, I want to protect my kids from those things. If you would ask Jacob, he doesn’t want this to happen to Joseph.

Lili Anderson: 00:47:06 That’s right. And let’s find the sweet spot again. There’s a balance in here. So find the sweet spot, which is not that we throw our kids under the bus or-

Hank Smith: 00:47:16 You got to deal with it.

Lili Anderson: 00:47:17 That’s not necessary. But what is necessary is that we not run interference every time something wrong happens, or unfair. And that doesn’t mean we don’t talk. We support, we validate. But then we… Like, okay, therefore what? Remember that speech by Elder Oaks? Where he gave it to one of his brethren in the 12, and they came back with the question, “Therefore, what?” What’s the takeaway from your message here? I love that because that’s how we can talk with our children, and ourselves about, okay, now what? It is unfair. And I grieve with you about that, and I’m supportive, and we love you, and we’re sorry that you’re hurt. But now what? What is this to help you learn? How is this supposed to help you optimize, to grow, to become, to stretch your faith?

Lili Anderson: 00:47:59 Faith only grows in the dark. And if you can see how it all turns out, there would be no need for faith. But faith is the power by which the worlds were created. So is our beginning faith the same as the faith at the end? Look at Enoch’s faith that we talked about a while ago, where it was so great that mountains could be moved and rivers could change course. And the lions roared in the wilderness because of how great his faith was. So is our faith there yet? Well, guess what? It’s going to take a little more time in the valley of the shadow. And if we respond correctly, our faith can become that faith by which worlds were created. And that’s the journey, to stretch our faith. And that only can happen in the dark.

John Bytheway: 00:48:37 The letters from Mormon to his son Moroni, where he recounts everything that’s going on. Talk about dysfunction. And they’re worrying among themselves. And then this great line, he says, “Not withstanding their hardness, let us continue faithful.” And it’s notwithstanding all of that out there, all of that bad stuff that’s going on. Therefore, what? Let us continue faithful. Yeah, that’s all going on. Yep, you’re right, uh-huh (affirmative), it is. What are you going to do about it? I will continue faithful. Son, let’s continue faithful. I love that letter. And that reminds me of Joseph. Not withstanding all this going on, Joseph, what are you going to do? And he continues faithful at 17-years-old.

Hank Smith: 00:49:24 Because I know the end of Joseph’s story, I don’t feel so bad for him. Because I’m like, “Oh, it’s going to work out. Don’t worry. It’s going to work out. Just wait until chapter 45. It’s going to work out great.”

Lili Anderson: 00:49:35 That’s right. It’s going to be good.

Hank Smith: 00:49:36 But he doesn’t know that. He doesn’t know his future. He just knows that he’s been through serious pain, and it just keeps happening. It just keeps coming. Not knowing the chapter is coming where the healing comes.

Lili Anderson: 00:49:52 And as you say, he starts to rise at the top of Potiphar’s house, which is, okay, a much more fortunate situation than starting at the bottom. And then Potiphar’s wife pulls her horrible temptation or whatever, and Joseph doesn’t fall for it. But he’s blamed. Again, incredible injustice. “What did I do? I’m the good guy. I did the right thing.” And as we have heard, no good deed goes unpunished, sometimes. And we feel like, “Here, I’m doing the right thing and I’m getting kicked in the teeth for it.” How often does that happen in life? Well, it happens a lot. It happens a lot. We’re trying to be good and do the right things. And we still get kicked in the teeth. If you’re the honest one, and everybody else cheats on the test, you get the lowest score. So are you going to give up on that, or are you going to keep being honest?

Lili Anderson: 00:50:34 Those are the tests. That’s what they said in Abraham, “We will prove them now herewith, whether they will obey under pressure, under stress, under the yoke of injustice.” I used to tell my son, my kids, “Life has to be unfair or it would have no meaning.” What if every time you did something right, you got a $100 bill in your pocket? Something really motivating. And then every time you did something wrong, you got zapped by lightning. Not enough to kill you, but enough to hurt you really badly. How often would we do bad things? We’d all be helping little old ladies across the street. Well, I’m the little old lady now. But anyway, we would be helping people, doing good service all the time, because we would be instantly rewarded for it.

Lili Anderson: 00:51:14 It would be just. And every time we did something wrong, we get zapped pretty badly. Well, on a bad day, it might take us twice. And then we would stop doing bad things. But not because we were choosing virtue. Not because we’re building spiritual muscle, because any idiot can keep their hand off an electrified fence. And that doesn’t mean anything. It really doesn’t mean anything.

Lili Anderson: 00:51:35 So God sets up this perfect plan, and then he tells us about it. This is the amazing thing is that we read these scriptures sometimes, and then we still are betrayed into thinking that it’s not right that life is unfair. And you’re like, “Well, did you notice this story about Nephi and how his brothers kept trying to kill him?” He’s tied to the mast for three days.

Lili Anderson: 00:51:53 Do you remember Job, who was said to be a perfect man? Which we know doesn’t mean fully perfected, but a really good guy, a really good guy. And life hammers him. And even his friends turn against him and say, “You must be a sinner.” And even his wife comes to him and says, “Why don’t you just curse God and die. Just give up.” And what does he say? Such an example. And you know what? Job is a great book to read when we’re suffering. It really is. There’s so much good stuff in there. And what does he say? “Thou speakest as one of the foolish women. Shall we accept good from the hand of the Lord and not accept evil?” Another place he says, “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

John Bytheway: 00:52:32 It’s like right after the servants come in and say, “Hey, you just lost this”, and, “Hey, you just lost this.” And right after that, he’s, “Well, the Lord gives, the Lord takes away.” It’s like, okay, that’s remarkable.

Lili Anderson: 00:52:43 It’s beautiful. And that can be you. And that can be me. We can be those people. We can be like Joseph. You’re right, Hank. He didn’t see the end of the story. We know the end of the story so it doesn’t hurt quite so much, like you said. Because we know there’s a good… There’s a big finish coming.

Hank Smith: 00:52:57 It’s going to work out.

Lili Anderson: 00:53:01 It’s going to be really great. And you know what? There is a big finish coming. And that’s what we need to hold onto. God fulfills his promises. And all that that woman heard about when you do what’s right, you’re blessed. It’s true. Just our timing is off. Our expectation of the timing is off.

John Bytheway: 00:53:19 Or blessed with perspective, yeah.

Lili Anderson: 00:53:22 That’s right. Here’s the sad thing, is that too many of us waste our suffering because we just put our heads down and hope that it passes quicker rather than slower. And we might miss the opportunity to build some spiritual muscle. What is it that the Lord wants to teach me here? And I’ll tell you some things that he’s always giving us an opportunity to develop, our faith. We can increase our faith in those times. We reach for that belief that God will fulfill his promises because he has said so. And my faith is going to be set in that way and grow and stretch. I’m stretching my faith.

Lili Anderson: 00:53:56 I’ll tell you a little story of, I was going through a tough time. And interestingly, I don’t even remember what the challenge was right now. But I remember I was really struggling. And I took a walk, and I was praying on this walk about, kind of a casual prayer, as I’m thinking about this problem. And looking for some insight and relief. And the verse came into my mind, at section 90, verse 24, that says, “Search diligently, pray always, and be believing. And all things shall work together for thy good if ye walk uprightly and remember the covenant.” My first response was an incredulous, “All things?” Like, “Really? Like this? And it’s going to work together for my good?” I’m hoping to survive it. You’re telling me this is going to be for… That’s a stretch. And I’m like “Really? Really, all things?”

Lili Anderson: 00:54:44 The spirit came back that day. I’m not saying it was a voice, but it was powerful. And it was like, “Lili, either it’s the truth, or God’s a liar. Choose one.” And I was duly chastened because I made that choice a long time ago, as did the rest of us. We know he’s not a liar. But that day I needed to stretch my faith. I had faith. I had faith, but it didn’t stretch over this particular trial. Because I was struggling. So I thought, “I need to stretch my faith in this area and believe that this will work together for my good.” Can you imagine the promise of that verse? “All things shall work together for thy good.” All things. God doesn’t lie.

Lili Anderson: 00:55:33 So when we can’t see, that’s when we have a chance to believe. That’s what faith is, is believing when we can’t see. We don’t see the end of our personal story, except that God does give us a pretty good preview. Which is that, you know what? It’s going to be great. I have not seen, neither heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him. Trust me on this. It’s going to be amazing. Hold on. Hold on. Don’t let go of that iron rod. Don’t let go of your faith. Stretch your faith. Keep growing. Another thing that can always grow in struggles is patience. We can grow our faith. We can grow our patience. Long-suffering is nobody’s favorite virtue, but it’s important to God. Joseph Smith gets that beautiful message, “All these things give thee experience, will be for thy good.” So there’s a purpose to pain.

Lili Anderson: 00:56:33 And here’s what I see. I see that there are these three roads that we can take when we’re struggling. When we’re suffering, when life is unfair. One of the roads is anger and bitterness. And maybe we dance into that road a little bit sometimes, because life is hard and we might feel a little rebellious about that sometimes. And that’s pretty human. Even Joseph Smith, who was saying, “Where art thou?” Nephi, with his beautiful Psalm of Nephi, ” Wretched man that I am.”

Lili Anderson: 00:57:00 It’s understandable that sometimes we might experience a little bit of that. But don’t stay there. That’s a really big mistake to stay in that path of bitterness that’s taken it long enough now and dishing it out. I’m just going to become part of the problem now.

Hank Smith: 00:57:13 Lili, it reminds me of Genesis 37, that after Jacob learns of Joseph’s seeming death, he refuses to be comforted.

Lili Anderson: 00:57:22 That’s true. That’s true.

Hank Smith: 00:57:22 That’s Verse 35. His sons and his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. He says, “I will go into my grave unto my son, mourning.”

Lili Anderson: 00:57:35 Yes. It’s easy to fall into there. I mean, it’s real. It’s real. And trouble causes pain, and it’s human to feel that. Then there’s this other row that I think a lot of really good people get stuck on. And it’s a lot better than being angry and bitter forever. I think it’s a misconception about the concept of enduring to the end. I think we believe sometimes incorrectly that that means, “I just have to just hang on,” which okay, hang on. But it is, it’s kind of putting our head down and just praying that the storm passes quickly rather than slowly. That’s better, but it’s not enough. The best path is this path of really developing as antifragile children of God. And becoming more powerful in our faith. More powerful in our to learn more, be more patient. Think of that beautiful hymn, “More holiness give me.”

Lili Anderson: 00:58:28 It’s all of those things. More like thee. All of this. Help me in this struggle to polish off some more rough edges. Remember Joseph Smith’s statement about, “I am like a rough stone, thrown down the mountain, all hell breaking off. One rough edge after another.”

Lili Anderson: 00:58:44 That doesn’t sound like fun to me, but that is the process. That is the process. Is to be polished by our afflictions. But if we just put our head down and try to hang on, sometimes we really miss out on the growth. So choose this path of growth. What is this supposed to teach me. And if we go to the Lord and say, “What shall I learn? How can I become more willing to submit to all things that the father seeth fit to inflict upon me?” Not because he’s a mean guy, but because he loves me so much and he knows what I can be when I’m refined. So he’s not going to let me come through to this world and sit on the Deseret cruise ship and have no troubles because I won’t grow. I won’t grow. And I’m here to grow. I’m here to become like the Savior Himself. How did we think that was going to happen? At the spa?

Hank Smith: 00:59:37 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:59:39 Our friend Brad Wilcox says, “A God who is asking nothing of us is making nothing of us.”

Lili Anderson: 00:59:44 Exactly right. That’s exactly right. So. Powerful stuff here in the life of Joseph. I mean, these takeaways are life changing if we do it right. Chapter 38, snuck in here in the middle of the story of Joseph, that has a very different tone to it. Where Judah who is also born of good parents, but has chosen a whole different life path. And first of all, he doesn’t keep his promise to his daughter-in-law whose husband dies. Judah’s son dies. And then she’s promised the next son, and he dies too without giving her a child. And then he’s supposed to give the youngest son to the daughter-in-law when he’s able to marry. And he doesn’t. So the girl’s bitter. Not great choices that she makes either because she wants a child so badly. She disguises herself as a harlot and Judah comes by and hires her. So then she does have twins by Judah. And then he’s ready to punish her because she’s not married and here she’s having a child. But did he look in the mirror and say that “I’m not really behaving myself either.”

Hank Smith: 01:00:47 Yeah. This is an awkward family moment.

Lili Anderson: 01:00:50 Talk about dysfunction. Here we are again.

John Bytheway: 01:00:52 What’s it like to have a chapter about you like this? There’s a Stephen Covey like guy named Jim Rohn was saying, ” Listen, in the Bible, we find examples and warnings. An example says, “Do what this person did.” A warning says, “Don’t do what this person did.”” And then the funny thing he said was, “If your name ever ends up in a book, make sure it’s an example, not a warning.”

Lili Anderson: 01:01:15 Try not to be the cautionary tale.

John Bytheway: 01:01:17 Yeah. I know. This is the cautionary tale. And it’s interesting that in the middle of the story of Joseph, all of a sudden we’re plopped in this 38. Wait, what are they telling us this for? And maybe it’s to contrast a little bit. In the Come Follow Me manual, it says, “This account of Joseph’s strength when he was faced with temptation is preceded by a very different account about his older brother Judah. Found in Genesis 38. What do chapters 37, 38 and 39 taken together teach you about chastity?” So I like that phrase you used. Cautionary tale.

Hank Smith: 01:01:54 Cautionary tale.

Lili Anderson: 01:01:56 There are lots of them.

John Bytheway: 01:01:58 It’s the, don’t do this.

Lili Anderson: 01:01:59 Don’t do this one. Don’t do this one. So yeah, Judah makes an entirely different choice. He’s not living a chaste life. He sees a harlot and he’s interested. So his whole orientation is wrong. He wasn’t even put in a tough situation like Joseph is. He’s looking for trouble. Judah’s looking for trouble. Joseph’s not looking for trouble. Trouble comes to him. And he resists the temptation. I love that it says that he fled. Sometimes it’s just so important to get onto safer ground. This is not the time to try to teach the first discussion to Potiphers wife.

Lili Anderson: 01:02:36 Here, let me try to share with you some principles of this great God that we’d worship. No. He’s just, “I’m getting out of here. I’m getting out of here.” And I think that’s so much. I used to talk to my children about this because we want to be missionaries, but we also don’t want our children to be on unsafe or unholy ground. We want them to stand on holy ground. So I used to talk to them about turf.

Lili Anderson: 01:02:55 I’d say it’s all about turf. You need to be on safe turf. And when you’re in school, if you’re on safe turf, yes, you’re friendly to everybody. You can be an example. You can invite them to safe turf. To come to activities at our house because it’s supervised and we’re not going to have liquor, drugs and whatever. So it’s going to be safe turf and you can invite your non-member friends. Or to a church activity. It’s safe turf. But why would you go to the beer bust? That’s not safe turf. And there are a lot of places where parents don’t supervise very well. So it’s not that we want to just exclude ourselves from non-members. That’s, of course, how can we be a light to the world? How can we be the salt to the earth without mingling and living in the world we live in and being friendly to everybody and inviting all. But stay on safe turf. And that’s what Joseph does. When he’s on dangerous turf, “I’m getting out of here, I’m going to safe turf.”

John Bytheway: 01:03:47 You know what I love about this is it became unsafe. He didn’t know it was unsafe. And I love the story that Elder Gary Stevenson tells about, I want to say 2012 general conference. The young man that wants to be in a prestigious study abroad program in Japan. But when the theme for the youth was stand in holy places, I kind of retold this story about well, is that a safe place? Well, it seemed okay at first. And then he got that feeling, “I need to leave.”

John Bytheway: 01:04:16 And the urgency of that in that story is so dramatic because he says, “We got to go.” One of the friends tries to persuade him to stay, because they’re passing around marijuana on top of this building. “You guys do what you want. I’m leaving.” He goes down one flight of stairs to the elevator. And in the other elevators that opens and the Japanese police run up the stairs. And I’m thinking, if he’s at the top of the stairs right there, that’s totally different. But he’s by the other elevators. I mean, you can imagine him getting in, door closed. Down, down, down, down, right? So the idea of if you ever get that feeling, “I shouldn’t be here.” Genesis 39:12. He fled and got him out. What did you say? It’s not time to teach the first discussion. All of a sudden it was not a holy place. Get out of there now. And he did.

Lili Anderson: 01:05:06 And he’s still blamed. He’s still blamed. And he doesn’t have a way to defend himself or be believed. But that injustice of life is everywhere. But like I used to tell my seminary kids, if it were fair, there would be no test. The only way we can develop virtue is by doing the right thing in all hazards, as Joseph Smith said. That’s what builds that spiritual muscle, that faith that can move mountains. That power in the priesthood, where we access the powers of heaven. We can draw upon those powers. We can become instruments in the hand of God because he can trust us. In fact, let me put it this way. I was talking to a young person a while back. So many of these kids are just being so confused about sexuality and so on. And she had friends in high school that were like bisexual or asexual.

Lili Anderson: 01:05:53 And they were identifying in some different ways. She felt like she was kind of part of that. And still was a believer and she was trying to find her way. But she was pretty confused, told me her thoughts about it first. And I said, “Well, you don’t have to agree with me. This is a personal journey.” But I said, “This is how I see it. We have this amazing God who is omnipotent. He has all power. And like any wonderful parent, he wants to share what he has with his children. He wants us to be able to have that power, but he knows that power destroys people who can’t handle it. We have to meet certain conditions in order to be able to handle that power. You don’t give a chainsaw to a five year old. I don’t care how strong or good that five year old is. He’s going to do some damage with it. And he could kill himself and hurt others in the way. So you don’t give power to people who can’t handle it.”

Lili Anderson: 01:06:47 “So God says, “Here are the conditions on which I can give you my power.” And it means time in the spiritual weight room. That’s what it means. Build your spiritual strength. So that against all temptations against all trouble. When you can’t see how this can possibly turn out well, but you still believe that I can be with you. And I will fulfill my promises in due season. You get to a point where that power can be granted. And he is kind, he gives us these little moments of… We make covenants. They’re all covenants of power. And they’re all based on conditions. And they’re all conditions of obedience. Harness the natural man, because that natural man is going to take that power and do damage.”

Lili Anderson: 01:07:32 “But if you can harness the natural man to consistent obedience. Boringly consistent obedience. Set the clock by your obedience. People can set the clock because you will do the right thing at all hazards, in all circumstances. No matter how unfair life is, you will continue to be worthy. Then that power will come to you at appropriate times and appropriate ways. And finally, we will have access to all that power.”

Lili Anderson: 01:08:01 She thought about that for a moment about how God really does have the right to establish parameters through which he will prepare us if we choose to become that best version of ourselves. That person who can be in control of their natural man. That can be trusted and safe with power. Then this plan allows us to partake in that invitation in an amazing way and become ultimately like God himself. So as she thinks about this, she said, and she kind of surprised me.

Lili Anderson: 01:08:33 She said, “Wow. Didn’t think I was going to agree with what you said, but I actually agree with all of that.” And she said, “I think I’ve been wasting my time. I think I’ve been spending my time pursuing the things that are not going to really give me a chance to become what I can be.”

Lili Anderson: 01:08:54 And that was such a beautiful response. And I give her all the credit because she could see how this really could change the meaning of her life. This could make her life purposeful and ultimately fulfill the measure of her creation. So I hope she’ll pursue that path. I hope everybody can think about that and consider that these terms are set by God because they protect us from the inappropriate or dangerous use of power. They’re non-negotiable. These are his terms and we get to opt in or opt out. And it’s such a wonderful blessing if we opt in to this path where God can then give us everything he wants to give us.

Hank Smith: 01:09:38 I’m just really impressed with Joseph here in Genesis 39. First, he says in verse eight, after Potiphar’s wife comes to him. He says, “Listen, I am trusted by people. I like that. In the moment of temptation, look, this will not just hurt me and you, it will hurt other people. I am a trusted person. I’m not willing to give up that trust.”

Hank Smith: 01:10:03 Then he says in verse nine, “How can I sin against God?” And really, if anybody has an excuse to say, “What’s God done for me?” It could be Joseph, right. I mean, Judah, he has no thought for God. And yet Joseph’s been through years of trials and difficulties here. And he’s like, “I can’t do this to God.” Where he could have every reason and say, “Well, what’s God ever done for me?”

Lili Anderson: 01:10:27 And let me make a little distinction. I like to distinguish between reasons and excuses. Because we all have reasons to screw up. But none of us have excuses. We don’t have excuses. God is good. And God has put the light of Christ in each one of us. We might have reasons, but they’re not really very good excuses. And what does God tell Joseph? “The son of man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? Do you really think you have an excuse? You might have your reasons. They’re not really excuses.” So what do we want?

Hank Smith: 01:10:58 And maybe he’s vulnerable because he has been through so much difficulty.

Lili Anderson: 01:11:04 He’s been in exile. He’s been lonely.

Hank Smith: 01:11:06 It’s been lonely. But he won’t do it. And then verse 10. This isn’t a one time thing. Day after day, he is withstanding this. I’m just so impressed. I think there’s so much we can apply to our lives of endurance, day after day after day. Remember that you’re trusted. That people love you and trust you.

Lili Anderson: 01:11:30 That the Lord wants to give you everything he has.

Hank Smith: 01:11:34 I love that Joseph has lines he will not cross. I just think that’s beautiful integrity.

Lili Anderson: 01:11:40 One of the things I love about chapter 39 is that this is the place where we hear this phrase again and again. Starting back the first two, after he’s sold to the hands of the Ishmaelites. “And the Lord was with Joseph.” The Lord was with Joseph. And look at verse 21. This is after he’s thrown in prison. “But the Lord was with Joseph.” And then look at the end of the chapter. That the keeper of the prison gives everything over to Joseph to handle because the Lord was with him. Let’s just make sure that we understand the connections here, because it’s not because God disliked Joseph better. God doesn’t do that. And he is so clear about that. “I am no respecter of persons. I love all my children, but I am no respecter of persons.” So why is the Lord with Joseph?

Lili Anderson: 01:12:25 And the only answer is that it’s because Joseph was with the Lord. Joseph chose the Lord again and again. He chose to be obedient in the face, as we were just talking about, of all this affliction. All this injustice. God was still chosen by Joseph. He keeps choosing God. He uses his agency every time. I want all to have this invitation, but only the ones who keep choosing God are able to receive this amazing blessing that God is with us. The Lord is with us. And even in our difficulties, there will be tender mercies. We can prosper. Meaning we can be refined. We can become the best version of ourselves in this moment. That’s what’s happening to Joseph. He’s becoming a better and better version of himself. Antifragile.

John Bytheway: 01:13:20 Please join us for part two of this podcast.