John Bytheway:  00:03  Welcome to part two of this week’s podcast.

Hank Smith:  00:08  Hey Camille, can I ask you a quick question before we move on from 24? When Rebekah meets Isaac, can we just talk about that really quick?

Dr. Camille Olson:  00:16  Yes.

Hank Smith:  00:16  I’m interested in what you have to say about what she does here.

Dr. Camille Olson:  00:19  Who is that? And the servant says, this is my master. It’s Isaac. Therefore it’s just instantaneous she took a veil and covered herself. We have so many different interpretations about what a veil could symbolize. This is the tradition where brides wear veils today. I think that is interesting. In the next generation, Leah will wear a veil when she’s married to Jacob and Jacob won’t be able to see her face and thinks he’s marrying Rachel, right? You might consider modesty, but it’s not like they wore them all the time. Obviously, when she was getting water, the servant could see her right there. Some have even suggested she was maybe dusty and dirty and she didn’t want the first time she sees her new husband to be. Let me get cleaned up first, before we see.

John Bytheway:  01:09  It’s been a long trip.

Dr. Camille Olson:  01:11  It’s been a long trip, but it is an instinctive thing, perhaps that is part of her whole attire. This is how she wants to present herself to begin with. I don’t think we need to see negative in veils. I think we see that with so many today of our Muslim sisters who wear veils and how beautiful. And that could be as far as what was beauty then too. I don’t know.

Hank Smith:  01:39  And I do like the little end at the very end of 67.

Dr. Camille Olson:  01:44  Yes. Read that.

Hank Smith:  01:45  Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death. He misses Sarah’s influence in his life.

Dr. Camille Olson:  01:52  He brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent. They had their own space, her tent.

John Bytheway:  01:57  I think I’ve heard whole talks given about, and he loved her. The love is a verb idea. Maybe Isaac, the same revelation the Lord is in this thing.

Hank Smith:  02:09  Right. But he makes the choice to love her.

John Bytheway:  02:11  Is it a feeling, is it a decision?

Dr. Camille Olson:  02:13  And the thing of it is he’s just looked at her. They haven’t been sending communications ahead saying, let me tell you about this woman I’m bringing home to you. Arranged marriages, love was not even part of the equation, but they grew into love. We don’t have the details of that story much. I mean, as far as their life. All we know is that it’s going to be 20 years before she’s able to get pregnant to have a child. Chapter 25 it goes into the descendants of Ishmael and so we get 12 sons, 12 princes. He had a big family. We’re going to learn later, he had daughters and those will become important.

Hank Smith:  03:01  So chapter 25 looks to me like we need to tell you that God fulfilled his covenant to Abraham. There is a lot of kids.

Dr. Camille Olson:  03:08  And that’s part of it, so let’s keep the… I just think that is an important part. It’s part of the covenant. And verse 17, again, reflective that Isaac was aware. I mean, who’s keeping this record before it’s record.  We’ve got when Ishmael dies and he’s gathered unto his people, same phrase.

Hank Smith:  03:36  Yeah, he’s not forgotten and-

Dr. Camille Olson:  03:38  He’s not forgotten and going, you’re saying, into the spirit world. Can you see a reunion with Abraham? And I think Sarah… I’d want to go back to Sarah had love for Ishmael too, but that’s another story. And it says, look at verse 19, and these are the generations of Isaac, Abraham’s son and Abraham begat Isaac. There you go. Short verse. Short genealogy. And Isaac is 40 years old when he took Rebekah to wife, you get the idea Rebekah was far younger than that when she would’ve married. That’s typical. And they are praying in verse 21 because she’s barren. It sounds like he’s the one entreating the Lord and Rebekah conceives. So you don’t know how much is happening here before that 20 years. Let me suggest, can I just flip over to chapter 26 and do a little bit there and say, this could have been during that years. These are not necessarily written in chronological order, but because we’re going to get onto those children here pretty quickly and that story take off, let’s just take a look at chapter 26 for a minute. Shall we? Can we do that?

Hank Smith:  04:59  Okay.

Dr. Camille Olson:  04:59  There’s no evidence as far as the children going with them. This could be later, but there’s a famine sometime and that happens so frequently. And we saw it with Abraham and Sarah that ended up going to Egypt and the Lord tells them, in this case, you don’t need to go that far. You can just go over there to Philistia and to Gerar. There in that context, we get our first hint and I just think these have happened earlier. And I don’t know. I don’t know the Lord’s way of thinking, but verse 3, what is the Lord telling Isaac? I will be with thee and I will bless thee here in the land of Philistia for unto you and unto thy seed I will give all these countries. This is a foreshadowing of what’s going to come for the descendants of Abraham and I will perform the oath, which I swear unto Abraham, my father, and I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven and will give unto thy seed all these countries and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. I mean, what is it?

John Bytheway:  06:05  It’s the Abrahamic covenant.

Dr. Camille Olson:  06:07  Still chapter 26, verse 24, the Lord appeared unto him the same night and said, I am the Lord, God of Abraham, my father, fear not for I am with thee and will bless thee and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham’s sake. And he built an altar and there’s the verse. And he pitched a tent and he dug a well, but somewhere in here, it seems like that covenant is bestowed specifically on him.

John Bytheway:  06:34  For our listeners, could you elaborate on Philistia and what that is and what that land becomes?

Dr. Camille Olson:  06:42  All right. For the famine, they go to an area called Philistia, which is coastal there, the Philistines live there and later when the Greeks conquer that area and the Romans are in that area, you can see the change from the languages, call it Palestine. And so that whole land takes on the name that had originally been Philistia. It was kind of a derogatory for the people of… the Jews who were there to call it by Palestine, but it took on that name and that name still continues today. Our Palestinian friends are some of our favorites. Are they not? Here’s just one incident and I don’t have a whole lot to say about it. It’s another parallel with Abraham and Sarah when they were in Egypt because of the famine.

Dr. Camille Olson:  07:34  It’s just kind of quirky because it just keeps coming up and you’re not saying, what do I do with this? Because for some reason, and this one is a little different because there’s no indication here that the Philistines are so anxious one of them to marry Rebekah, that they would be willing to kill her husband to do so as was the case down in Egypt with Abraham and Sarah. All we can see is they see that Rebekah is beautiful. This might be another reason that I might think this is earlier in Rebekah’s life rather than later, but I don’t know. Verse 7, the man of the place asked him of his wife and he said, she’s my sister for he feared to say she is my wife lest the man of the place should kill me for Rebekah because she was fair to look upon. I don’t know if he’s learning this from his dad and just say, “Boy, watch out because self-preservation here.”

Hank Smith:  08:27  This sounds very familiar this story.

Dr. Camille Olson:  08:29  It is. But what is different about this is no one’s coming to take Rebekah like was in the case of Sarah and the Philistines are out looking, the king of the Philistines Abimelech is looking out the window and he sees, quote, Isaac sporting with Rebekah. It’s that word. Not sure exactly. But it’s kind of like they’re behaving not like brother and sister. Can we say that? And Abimelech’s said, “Wait a minute, this isn’t your sister. She’s your wife.”

Hank Smith:  09:01  He said, “Why’d you lie to me?” Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  09:03  As Isaac explains, Abimelech verse 11 charges his people saying don’t touch this man or his wife, the Lord has blessed him. Leave him alone. And as long as Isaac and Rebekah are there, they just wax great.

Hank Smith:  09:17  Yeah. Verse 13.

Dr. Camille Olson:  09:20  And become great. And all this flocks and herds… I just wonder, see, that’s what I’m wondering if this could have been during that 20 years.

Hank Smith:  09:28  So maybe we’re not getting the exact chronological order.

Dr. Camille Olson:  09:31  I don’t know. Because I don’t know where to place it chronologically, but it would fit there. It would fit there.

Hank Smith:  09:35  Yeah, because there’s no mention of the twins here.

Dr. Camille Olson:  09:37  Not until you get to the very last two verses and then that just comes out of the blue. So I’m going to keep those two verses. And can we go back to chapter 25?

Hank Smith:  09:47  It’s fascinating to me that we’ve got Keturah, all these kids, we’ve got Ihsmael, all these kids and then the one that we’re counting on-

Dr. Camille Olson:  09:58  20 years. Yeah.

Hank Smith:  10:00  … nothing.

Dr. Camille Olson:  10:00  I just think it is fascinating how often the idea of these incredibly important, strong, good women who are barren. It happens. It happens in the next generation with Rachel and you go, “Well, Leah isn’t barren.” But she is barren as far as the real love of her husband and feeling of acceptance as much in that clan and in every single case in those times of real emptiness, that’s when each of these women seem to really cement a relationship with God that I wonder if would not have happened in quite the same way. I have just learned from personal experience that sometimes when blessings don’t come in the way you expect or as when you expect, and you are an outlier in any way and you go to church and maybe church doesn’t quite connect with what you are going through because it assumes you’re like everybody else. That’s when you start seeing God is aware of you. I think of Hagar so much. He sees me, the God who sees me.

Dr. Camille Olson:  11:21  And the fact that God is going to be talking to Rebekah before she has children, it is not the fact that she has born children that makes her now of value to the Lord. She’s already of value to Him. And the fact that she’s having a communication with the Lord and gets an answer as clear and as precise and detailed and informative as this one would indicate to me prayer is not an anomaly for Rebekah. She knows the Lord and she knows his voice. We don’t have those verses, but if you read between the lines, I think her heart, she’s been pouring out her… We read in chapter 25, verse 21, Isaac entreating the Lord on her behalf and Isaac’s been praying. I think his prayers… He’s not getting another wife like his father did. We don’t see any other wives for Isaac and he doesn’t have other children. Yeah. The genealogy stops with Isaac.

Hank Smith:  12:28  That’s such an important principle. Is your difficulties turning you to the Lord.

John Bytheway:  12:34  Yeah. I like to tell my students, the first syllable of testimony is test and the first symbol of question is quest. You can ask a question of Siri or Google in an instant, but a quest is a long arduous search.

Dr. Camille Olson:  12:51  And we don’t like that kind of answer, especially in a world where we do have Siri and Google to give it to us right then.

John Bytheway:  12:58  I tell my students I worry about gen Z, as you want Google speed answers to golden questions.

Dr. Camille Olson:  13:05  Ah, that’s good. That’s good.

Hank Smith:  13:08  Instant messages, right? I’m like, Lord, just DM me.

John Bytheway:  13:11  Just text me.

Hank Smith:  13:13  Yeah. Just text me.

John Bytheway:  13:13  I’m waiting.

Hank Smith:  13:16  The Lord left me on red. I can’t believe this.

John Bytheway:  13:18  I can see the dot, dot, dot, but it’s sure taking a long time.

Hank Smith:  13:21  I can see. Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  13:24  Okay. All right. I love it. I love it. Let’s get into her prayer and the answer because this is going to change, this is the rest of our story today. Verse 22 of chapter 25, Rebekah has conceived and there’s nothing to tell her that it’s not going to be a single birth.

Hank Smith:  13:44  What is going on? Why am I thus?

Dr. Camille Olson:  13:48  She is struggling. There’s some major discomfort going on now that she’s… I’ve obviously talked to some other women and they’re saying this just doesn’t seem normal.

Hank Smith:  13:58  We have twin boys.

Dr. Camille Olson:  13:59  Oh yes.

Hank Smith:  14:01  I remember my wife said to her doctor, she said, “This one feels different.” And he said, “Oh, it’s your fourth. You probably haven’t had a girl in a while.” And she’s like, “No, this definitely feels different.” And by the end it was two seven pound baby.

Dr. Camille Olson:  14:17  Ooh.

Hank Smith:  14:18  Yeah.

John Bytheway:  14:19  For twins, that’s really heavy. Isn’t it?

Hank Smith:  14:21  Yeah, it was.

John Bytheway:  14:23  Wow.

Dr. Camille Olson:  14:24  They seem to be these fetuses that are getting well acquainted in the womb.

Hank Smith:  14:34  They struggled together within her. Get away from me. Give…

Dr. Camille Olson:  14:38  They’re starting to really develop their personalities already. So yes, she asks the Lord, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the Lord. We just pause over that. We don’t get this captured in scripture often enough, but it’s going on. We just can’t assume that other women aren’t praying and getting answers and having that personal relationship. It’s too easy to imagine them going through prophet husband.

Hank Smith:  15:08  She inquired of the Lord. She went.

Dr. Camille Olson:  15:11  And the Lord tells her, now look at this, I don’t get answers in paragraphs, typically. Two nations are in thy womb and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels. Ah, you wonder how often… I mean, how normal having twins? I mean, if she had even known anyone women that had had twins. And the one people shall be stronger than the other people and the elder shall serve the younger. I think how do we have this in scripture? Rebekah has reported the Lord’s answer to her.

Hank Smith:  15:48  And she knows what has to happen.

Dr. Camille Olson:  15:49  And she knows what has to happen. And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb, kind of like… That’s almost from the midwives point of view. Well, what do you know? Because Rebekah already knew. The first came out red. We’re going to see some corollary with that in a minute. Yes. And all over like a hairy garment. I mean, I don’t know all over. This is some hairy child. Yes. And they called his name Esau. And after that came, his brother out and his hand took hold on Esau’s heel. This is going to be the reason that Jacob gets his name and his name was called Jacob. And this is where we find out Isaac was three score years old when she bear him. So 40 years old when he was married, 60 years old when they had the children, there’s 20 years there. In Hebrew, Jacob’s name literally means he shall follow at the heel and that’s where that idea of a supplanter or an overreacher.

Dr. Camille Olson:  16:58  But I think interesting too, from the revelation, Rebekah knew that Jacob would surpass his brother to receive the birthright. He would be the stronger one. And we’re talking probably in a sense spiritually, especially initially. So there the boys are born and right after we start getting them, they’re growing up and we start learning about them. Verse 27, Esau was that cunning hunter like unto John Bytheway.

Hank Smith:  17:25  Yes. My cunning hunter cohost.

Dr. Camille Olson:  17:28  This is a good quality. He’s good at hunting. And I’m telling you, the family needs that. He’s a man of the field. He’s an outdoorsman. You can just kind of start getting a little bit of personality and you can just see his physical prowess and strength and-

John Bytheway:  17:47  He had the four wheel drive camel.

Dr. Camille Olson:  17:49  Yeah. Yeah. And Jacob was a plain man. I mean, that is about as nonplused description as you can find.

Hank Smith:  17:59  I know.

Dr. Camille Olson:  18:00  But put a footnote with that. It’s the same word used to describe Noah in Genesis 6:9. It’s the very same word. Perfect in all his generation. Perfect. Oh, see, you can see in this footnote it says Hebrew whole complete, perfect, plain simple. It’s the same word.

John Bytheway:  18:22  That’s interesting because-

Dr. Camille Olson:  18:24  Yeah, it is.

John Bytheway:  18:25  … why wouldn’t you use perfect there?

Dr. Camille Olson:  18:26  I don’t know.

John Bytheway:  18:26  That’s interesting.

Dr. Camille Olson:  18:26  I don’t know.

John Bytheway:  18:29  I like how it says he was intense too. Oh, sorry. Dad joke.

Dr. Camille Olson:  18:33  Yeah.

John Bytheway:  18:33  Dwelling in tents.

Hank Smith:  18:37  It says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations. And the same word here for 27, a plain man dwelling in tents.

Dr. Camille Olson:  18:46  He’s a good kid. He’s different from his brother. I don’t know. I don’t know if he’s just more sensitive or… They’re different and they don’t really see eye to eye in a lot of stuff, right?

John Bytheway:  19:00  He’s going hunting again?

Dr. Camille Olson:  19:01  Yep. Yep. And Jacob says I’ll stay home and fix dinner because he can make a mean bowl of soup. I’m telling you, we find that out here.

John Bytheway:  19:11  That’s coming up

Dr. Camille Olson:  19:12  Verse 28. Isaac loved Esau because he did eat of his venison. That’s a good reason. Don’t you… But it seems like Isaac related to Esau and appreciated so much some of the tales perhaps that he told of being out there, but Rebekah loved Jacob and we… I don’t know… I just don’t want to make this so much of, that means Rebekah didn’t like Esau and Jacob didn’t like… Or Isaac didn’t like Jacob. I think probably every parent has some ways that they can relate more to one child than another, but the love and what they’ll be willing to do.

Hank Smith:  19:45  Yeah. I get that. I can see that. That you relate more to one because they’re more like you. You’re like, “Oh, that one was… He looks like me. He acts like me.” Versus a different child who you’re going, “Where did you come from?”

Dr. Camille Olson:  20:00  I don’t know if Rebekah might have felt a particular connection with Jacob just knowing what she knew and maybe had a little bit more as far as saying, I got to make sure he stays on the straight and narrow because he’s the one the Lord has chosen to do this. Okay. Here’s one of our major incidents here, right? Jacob’s sod potage. Sod is just one of those little old words that boil or cook. This is not soup made out of dirt or the lawn.

John Bytheway:  20:35  Two square feet of grass.

Dr. Camille Olson:  20:37  Yes. Yes. And it’s so fun that this Hebrew word potage… Why don’t you just say soup? But potage has the same three consonant root as does red, as does Edom. It’s yod, dolet, mem or Y D M and the Y sound is kind of that… Yeah, but it is kind of this play on word that is really very fun. Feed me I pray thee, some of that red potage. I think the reason potage is in italics is you almost didn’t have to say that. That’s what the translators added because it’s almost the same word. It is red and it is this fixed stewish kind of potage with lentils.

John Bytheway:  21:32  Give us a little background on why in King James some words are italicized.

Dr. Camille Olson:  21:37  I think this is such an important thing and I love the King James version of the Bible. This is one of the reasons I love it. When the translators were going through the Bible, if they’d come upon a phrase or a sentence where a part of speech was missing or it didn’t make quite sense and… If you’ve ever translated from another language, you can see that they aren’t parallel and you will oftentimes have to insert other words to make it make sense in a different language. They would put it in italics not so you would emphasize it, but so that you would know they have added it.

Hank Smith:  22:15  What is this with red? I mean, are they just saying he was red? We made red soup.

Dr. Camille Olson:  22:22  Yep. Well this is-

Hank Smith:  22:22  We called him red.

Dr. Camille Olson:  22:24  He was red, the soup is red.

Hank Smith:  22:28  We nicknamed him red.

Dr. Camille Olson:  22:29  They named him red. But I think it is, it’s kind of like red symbolizes Esau, but his descendants in the Old Testament are called the Edomites and you will lose that if you don’t put this connection that these are the descendants of Esau.

John Bytheway:  22:45  Yeah. They’re not the Esauhites. They’re the Edomites because of that red associated with him.

Dr. Camille Olson:  22:51  Yep. Okay. So here’s the situation, Esau’s been out hunting. He knows how to find food. I don’t know how far away from home they are or if they’re kind of close by, but as he comes up being out there in the fields and hunting all day, he’s hungry. I mean, you know those days. And he can smell the soup. Oh, oh, it’s good. And he says, I am faint. And Jacob goes… I mean, I think they’ve had this little bantering back and forth probably their whole lives and he goes, okay… Obviously Jacob’s been thinking… Has thought a lot about the birthright and he’s going to get it because he’s the oldest, but I would really like it. I want that added responsibility. I would do it.

Hank Smith:  23:38  And maybe he sees Esau doesn’t take it as seriously.

Dr. Camille Olson:  23:41  And he says, sell me this day thy birthright and Esau said, “Behold, I’m at the point to die.” I mean, come on. Esau’s not going to die.

Hank Smith:  23:48  You’re not going to die.

John Bytheway:  23:52  Yeah. That’s I am dying of hunger. What is the birthright? It’s more than just, “Oh, I’ll give you a father’s blessing.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  23:59  It’s a hard thing in this story, especially to see if we’re talking about multiple blessings or all the same. There is a birthright blessing that it seems families at this time all had and it typically went to the oldest son. The son that gets the birthright gets twice as much as any of the others. But the idea is there’s a responsibility with it that if down the line… So the father dies and you’ve got a widowed mother. You take care of that mother as long as she lives and if-

Hank Smith:  24:28  That’s why you have that-

Dr. Camille Olson:  24:29  That’s why you have it. And you have sisters that something happens and they don’t marry or something else… You are responsible for the entire clan. And you have that double portion specifically to help them. It’s not for you, it’s for them.

John Bytheway:  24:46  And it’s not just a… I don’t want to minimize a priesthood blessing, but it’s not just, “Oh, I’ll give you a blessing.” It is temporal responsibilities that go with it.

Dr. Camille Olson:  24:56  A priesthood blessing is… What we’ve seen it’s oftentimes combined with the birthright. Some have argued, it doesn’t have to be. Three things. The birthright blessing, a father’s blessing and then the blessing that would say you are in charge of the covenant. You’re succeeding in being the guardian of the Abrahamic covenant for your generation and the responsibility of being the leader of the covenant people, a spiritual assignment of leadership responsible for all families of the covenant. All that was given to Isaac. It’s possible all three of those are going to be given to Jacob, but it’s also possible it’s three different things and birthright is a separate thing and Esau and Jacob are kind of fighting it out for it here. I don’t know if this’ll be helpful.

Dr. Camille Olson:  25:51  I am reading a book that has nothing to do with the Bible. It’s Ron Chernow’s history on The Warburgs, an incredible Jewish family of bankers. Germany and then some of them were in the United States and the second generation of that incredibly strong, bright, genius and wealthy family. The two oldest sons, Abby and Max, Abby was the oldest. He didn’t want the birthright. He did not want to take over as head of the bank in the next generation and he made a deal with his brother Max when they were younger and he said, “Look, I’ll let you take that. You be the head of the bank as long as you buy me books the rest of my life. All I want are books.” And he actually did.

Hank Smith:  26:42  He sold the birthright for some books.

Dr. Camille Olson:  26:43  For books, but he got them for the whole life. And Max had no idea how much of a reader, a scholar, a student that Abby was. Thousands upon thousands of books every single year. So I always think Esau could have done better and said, I could at least have a bowl of soup every day for the rest of my life for the birthright. But I think sometimes you can just see, it did not mean… At this point in Esau’s life, it meant nothing, that added responsibility and stuff, he didn’t care about it. In fact, we read at the end of verse 34, he despised his birthright.

John Bytheway:  27:18  And verse 32, what profit shall this birthright do to me? He’s like, “I don’t see the value in it.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  27:23  I don’t see. It’s more responsibility than it is profit.

Hank Smith:  27:27  So it’s not really a trick here. It’s Jacob saying, “Look, I want this. You obviously don’t care about it.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  27:35  And the fact that he would do so cavalier and say, “Yeah, for that bowl of soup, I’ll take it. You can have it. You can have it.”

Hank Smith:  27:42  Camille, if it’s okay. I’m going to read something from the manual. If you’re at home with teenagers, this is a great little lesson. It says, as you read Genesis 25:29-34, consider why Esau might have been willing to give up his birthright in exchange for a meal. What lessons can you find for yourself in this account? And then is there any, quote, potage, that’s distracting you from blessings that are more valuable? What are you doing to focus on and appreciate those blessings? So I just think… I do this all the time. I have an opportunity to spend time with my kids and I am on my phone, right? I’m on social media. I have a chance to build a relationship with my wife and I’m watching whatever on TV. We sell our birthright in a way for-

Dr. Camille Olson:  28:33  A mess of potage.

Hank Smith:  28:34  … things that don’t have any real value.

John Bytheway:  28:37  It’s become a common expression isn’t it? You’ve traded that for a mess of potage.

Dr. Camille Olson:  28:43  But you know at the moment that’s all that Esau cared about and that is having eyes to see those, eternal kind of eyes and trust in what the Lord has promised. To sacrifice what we want right now for something that we would care about and will make a difference in the long run. I think about parents, generally, parents do that all the time. And Esau I think, is going to learn that one day, but he hasn’t figured that out quite yet. Jacob seems to be much more in tune to that. Doesn’t he?

Hank Smith:  29:18  What is that old saying, John? There’s nobody who puts on their tombstone, I wish I had spent more time at work.

John Bytheway:  29:23  More time at the office.

Hank Smith:  29:24  Right? We do it all the time. We do it every day. So I think that’d be a good activity for everyone to do listening is to just kind of stop and go, “How do I sell the most important blessings for very trivial things?”

John Bytheway:  29:39  I loved what Camille said that I think another way that is put that we hear a lot is to trade what we want most for what we want in the moment.

Dr. Camille Olson:  29:47  I’ve got this quote from then Elder Dallin H Oaks. October, 1985 general conference. He said the contrast between the spiritual and the temporal is also illustrated by the twins Esau and Jacob and their different attitudes toward their birthright. The firstborn Esau despised his birthright. Jacob, the second twin desired it. Jacob valued the spiritual while Esau sought the things of the world. When he was hungry, Esau sold his birthright for a mess of potage. Behold he explained, I’m at the point to die in what profit shall this birthright do to me? Many Esaus have given something of eternal value in order to satisfy a momentary hunger for the things of the world.

Hank Smith:  30:35  I’ve got this one from Elder Bednar. He talks about digital distractions. He said often, we neglect eternal relationships for digital distractions, diversions, and detours that have no lasting value.

Dr. Camille Olson:  30:53  It is easier to see it in an ancient’s life than in my own though.

John Bytheway:  30:57  Yeah. Those silly Israelites, my goodness.

Hank Smith:  31:04  Ah, oh, Esau. I would never do that. How dare you?

Dr. Camille Olson:  31:08  Okay. We’re going to go over. Its chapter 26 to the end of chapter 26, because we looked at the beginning of it earlier, right? And look at the last two verses. So we got some hint as far as Esau with the birthright. Now, look at verse 34 and this is the one that just breaks Isaac and Rebekah’s heart. Esau was 40 years old when he took to wife Judith, the daughter of Beeri the Hittite and Basemath the daughter of Elon, the Hittite. He married two Hittite women and you hear Rebekah say, what good is my life? I mean, why are they doing this? Again, here’s the genealogy, right? We got down to Isaac. Now we have two sons and here’s the first one to marry and it’s not good. The implication from everything else we read and their grief is the fact that they are not believers, they would not value the covenant.

Dr. Camille Olson:  32:10  They would have more the influence on Esau to take him away than to bring them into the covenant. And which could be kind of part of that, the way he’s responded to the birthright too. I mean, I don’t know. You can see some of that almost a little bit of rebellion in him right now that he’s going, “I don’t need this. I don’t need this.” But Isaac and Rebekah have not crossed him off and definitely the Lord has not.

Hank Smith:  32:40  Camille, there’s going to be many people listening who are going to say that’s me. My children are not making decisions that I wish they would. Is it my fault? You’ve got Isaac and Rebekah. Here’s the greats. These are the greats of what we’d say are faithful people and they’ve got a son just isn’t interested in… I don’t know if there’s comfort in the fact that, “Hey, you’re in the same boat as some of the greats.” When your children say, I’m not interested.

Dr. Camille Olson:  33:11  Well, that’s why I think I have to go a little bit into chapter 28. I mean, this story is not over right here.

Hank Smith:  33:19  Yeah. Don’t give up on the Esaus.

Dr. Camille Olson:  33:23  It doesn’t end with chapter 27 because that’s what our reading assignment for this week is. There’s more. And especially we see Rebekah in this, she does not let go. You remember. She’s going to send Jacob up to her family. She’s keeping Esau close by. This is a mother’s love and I can’t help, but think that they will continue to have influence. I will hope to prove by the end of this that Esau does change. We can all change. And again like Rebekah waited how many years before she had children, it’s going to be how many years before she sees and maybe it’s not in this life. Change is possible in the next life. I mean, it just keeps going and we just keep with them and we love them because they’re sons and daughters of God and he loves them.

Dr. Camille Olson:  34:20  There is redemption. That’s this whole thing, right? All these stories. If we had a family that everything worked out and all their kids just right in line and stuff, and you could almost come away in saying, “They don’t need the atonement. They don’t need Christ. They’re doing just fine. Boy! Wish they could raise my kids.” No. And it isn’t easy. There aren’t easy answers.

Hank Smith:  34:43  In my mind I think when Jacob and Esau have that future reunion, that she got to see it, that she got to see it from her seat wherever she was.

Dr. Camille Olson:  34:53  Wherever that was. Wherever that was. And that’s genuine. Okay. Chapter 27. And if there’s the hardest chapter in Genesis, this could be it. This is a tough one. There’s a lot of questions. And I would say right at the get go, I don’t think we have the full story. And our tendency is to make one person, the good person and one person the bad person. And we’ve got a family who’s struggling and trying to find answers.

Hank Smith:  35:22  Right. I’d see Rebekah as protecting her family and her posterity.

Dr. Camille Olson:  35:27  Maybe Isaac is thinking, “Ah, let’s just see if we can do something more for Esau and he’ll get with it.” I mean, they care. They care. We start chapter 27 and Isaac is old. He would be about a hundred years old now because… Right? Esau is 40 when he marries and Isaac was 60 when the boys were born. So whatever age means, but it’s old. That still is old there.

Hank Smith:  35:56  They’ve taken away his chariot license.

Dr. Camille Olson:  36:01  His eyes are dim. He cannot see, he cannot see. And he calls, Esau his eldest and he said-

Hank Smith:  36:10  I still love the meat.

Dr. Camille Olson:  36:11  Yep. I still love the meat. I know I’m going to die. It’s kind of like, he feels like his death is pretty soon. Therefore, take thy weapons and go get me some of that venison in verse 3. Verse 4, bring it back to me that my soul may bless thee before I die. Rebekah hears that and she immediately thinks he’s going to give the blessing and maybe the one that she was told in the revelation should go to Jacob. That’s her interpretation and she runs. We know this about her and that fast. She has got Jacob-

Hank Smith:  36:51  She still has it.

Dr. Camille Olson:  36:52  She still has it. And she calls Jacob and says, “Look, this is what your father said. Go out and you go get some kid from the flock and I’m going to fix that savory meat for him that fast and then you go in and tell him that you’re Esau.” I mean, this just everything about it just feels like, now, why are we doing this?

Hank Smith:  37:16  Yeah. Why are we deceiving Isaac here?

Dr. Camille Olson:  37:18  Why is this happening? Yeah. He says, he’s going to bless Esau and he wants… Verse 10, thou shall bring it to thy father that he may eat that he may bless thee before his death. She wants that and Jacob says, “Well, he can’t see me, but Esau my brother is a hairy man and I’m a smooth man.”

Hank Smith:  37:39  He’ll know. Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  37:40  He’ll know. And I’ll look like a deceiver. I mean, he’s worried. He doesn’t want to even give the appearance of doing something that could be evil. And she says, “Look, put it on me. I’ll take it. I’ll take it.” I don’t know. I mean, is this justification? Is this inspiration? Is this administering and helping where her husband might be not being as strong as he typically would be? Is this helping to enable him to do what is the right thing to do? It just feels uncomfortable.

Hank Smith:  38:17  When you pointed out that revelation, these two nations are in thy womb. She knows. Genesis 25:23. I’m going to write that in as a cross reference here that she’s-

Dr. Camille Olson:  38:27  She knows that.

Hank Smith:  38:28  She trusts the Lord here.

Dr. Camille Olson:  38:29  And I always ask the question, I just go, “Did she ever tell that to Isaac?” A lot of times we’re given information and we’re told not to tell that’s not for others. And that would only make the conflict between Jacob and Esau worse if she’s out there saying, “I’ve known boys that since before you were born…”

Hank Smith:  38:47  Yeah. We’re going to see how that works with Joseph. That doesn’t work out very well.

Dr. Camille Olson:  38:49  Doesn’t work very well. That’s exactly right. But speaking of that, this is just one of those fascinating things I have just played around with for a long time, because we always focus on the fact that she’s going to take the skins of kids of goats and put it on the hands and the smooth of Jacob’s neck and I go, “By Golly, he’s a hair… Esau is one hair suit guy if he’s like the goat. Man!” But look at verse 15. Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son, which she had in the house and put them on Jacob, the younger. Now let me tell you, this is one of those early Jewish from the midrash, the rabbinic traditions that the early Rabbis taught about. I think it’s an interesting one in that rabbinic tradition, Esau’s wonderful garments, as they were translated, goodly garments were the high priestly raiment in which God had clothed Adam, which had been handed down to Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, and finally to Esau as Isaac’s first born.

Hank Smith:  40:01  Whoa.

Dr. Camille Olson:  40:02  Now I start playing with that and I just go, “Wait a minute, remember what? It was an animal skin.” It’s an animal. It’s hairy and it symbolizes Christ. It symbolizes his life and sacrifice. And remember there was a covering that Noah had that his sons were jealous of. We don’t know a whole lot that’s going on there. Remember it is Joseph, the covenant son that’s going to get… We translate it coat of many colors, but in Hebrew you don’t know what it is. It’s something. We don’t know this coat. It is a covering. Okay. Now stay with me here. In Zechariah 13:4, the Prophet Zechariah… I know we don’t usually quote that, but warns against false people who are playing false prophets because they wear a rough garment with the intent to deceive. Was that a way you recognized a representative of the Lord? Elijah had such a rough garment. Remember Christ in the sermon on the mount. He said to beware of false prophets because they are wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Dr. Camille Olson:  41:17  I mean, I just play around with this and I just go, was this… I’m not saying the very same garment that Adam was given turned out, but there was something… There is something about this royal or goodly or wonderful raiment and the Rabbis connected it with what Adam and Eve had been given. It’s kind of an interesting one.

Hank Smith:  41:40  That is. It’s cool.

Dr. Camille Olson:  41:41  Anyway, I think that’s kind of fun. How do we unpackage this? What do we do? Would the Lord ever honor a blessing, especially a blessing of being over his priesthood if it was done by deceit? Can you trick the Lord? Does the Lord stoop to being a trickster? I mean, all those kind of things you start seeing where we run into some… We can attribute false attributes to God. I love Robert J. Matthews and I don’t know if either of you ever got to know him, but ah.

John Bytheway:  42:16  I got to give him a ride from the Salt lake airport to BYU once and just the two of us and I treasure that memory. That was fun.

Dr. Camille Olson:  42:25  So I love his explanations and how he… Let me read to you what he said. “ How could Jacob get a different patriarchal blessing through deceit and it be legitimate? We wish we had a more complete account of what really happened. We do not get additional help from the JST in this instance. “ Don’t you think that’s interesting, of all the JST Joseph Smith Translation? Nothing on this chapter. “ I’ll add a comment by Joseph Fielding Smith on the subject of patriarchal blessings. President Smith said,” this is still brother Matthews, “ there is a difference between the words of a blessing and the actual realization and reception of the promises stated in that blessing. The Lord would not have been obligated to fulfill the words of Isaac, if Jacob and Esau didn’t get the blessing that each deserved.

Dr. Camille Olson:  43:19  So an answer to the question, how can Jacob get a legitimate, different patriarchal blessing through deceit? I would answer he can’t and he didn’t. Isn’t that great? I got that quote from this lovely book that just came out edited by Daniel Belnap and Erin Shade. And this is a chapter on Isaac and Jacob by Erin Shade. Great, great resource.

Hank Smith:  43:46  Both are coming on our show hopefully later this year. So the Lord isn’t deceived here, Isaac may be, but the Lord isn’t.

Dr. Camille Olson:  43:55  The Lord isn’t. I wonder too, how many times we’ve seen in different circumstances that women are in that because of what their options were, they did some things that might be considered trickery. Let me just remind you of some. Well, one that’s later on. David’s first wife, Michal, when Saul was sending his men to come and kill David, she got David out the window and she stuffed a pillow in his bed. When the man came to kill David, she said, “Oh, he’s in there sick.” I don’t know if that sent them away. I guess they couldn’t kill him when he was sick. But there’s that one. How about the midwives Shiphrah and Puah when pharaoh told them to kill all the baby boys, as soon as they delivered them and they said, “Oh, sorry. As soon as those Jewish women, those Hebrew women gave birth-“

Hank Smith:  44:52  They delivered too fast.

Dr. Camille Olson:  44:52  “They deliver so fast. It’s all…” And pharaoh goes, “Oh, okay. That’s…”

Hank Smith:  44:57  I like that. Rebekah doesn’t have a lot of options in her culture.

Dr. Camille Olson:  45:00  I mean, she can’t give that blessing. Rahab tells the man of Jericho that the Hebrew spies ran out long or we better hurry because you might be able to catch them. And Yael when Sisera the Canaanite captain comes to get refuge because his army’s being slaughtered by the Israelites and he thinks Yael is going to save him. She goes, “Oh, here have some warm milk and sleep.” And while he’s sleeping, she hammers-

Hank Smith:  45:29  She hammers-

Dr. Camille Olson:  45:29  … his head to the floor. But you just see different kinds of things that are happening here.

John Bytheway:  45:35  Could it be that Rebekah is being an instrument in the Lord’s hands to get the right thing to happen? And could it be that Isaac is old and is not exactly sure what he’s doing? I hate to… I’m trying to do the same thing and trying to help make sense of it, but the right thing happened.

Dr. Camille Olson:  45:53  If it was switched around, we wouldn’t have trouble. If it was Rebekah struggling and Isaac came through and did something, they went through, we’re used to that more, but it’s when it’s the woman doing it, it’s like she’s micromanaging, she’s where she shouldn’t be. But that’s why I love this quote from Elder McConkie, “ women are appointed Rebekahlike to be guides and lights in righteousness in the family unit and to engineer and arrange so that things are done in the way that will result in the salvation of more of the father’s children. “ Elder McConkie even says, “Oh, that all more women could be more like Rebekah and engineer things. Create an environment where the right blessing could be given.” Okay, we got to turn to this one. Hebrews 11. I know we’re New Testament, but remember Hebrews 11, this is the great roll call of the faithful-

John Bytheway:  46:49  Faith hall of fame.

Dr. Camille Olson:  46:50  These are the people who were so sure about the promises that God had given, that they acted even without any evidence to the contrary. In a tiny little verse 20, we read this, by faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. I think bottom line with all of it, when Isaac is giving that blessing, he’s not doing it with his physical senses. It’s not his sight, it’s not his smell, it’s not his taste that’s telling him about this. He’s getting this. He thinks… There’s something in here that this could be Esau, but he gives the blessing that the Lord gives to him to give to that son by faith, by the spirit. It’s the Lord. You have to have that verse.

Hank Smith:  47:42  And Camille, I actually love how complicated and-

Dr. Camille Olson:  47:45  It is. Yeah.

Hank Smith:  47:46  … difficult this is. It’s good. It’s human. There’s something the Lord just says, “Yeah, work this out in your mind. It’ll be a fun…”

Dr. Camille Olson:  47:52  And it’s such a real story. It’s messy just like our lives are messy.

John Bytheway:  47:57  It helps us when our lives are messy. Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  48:00  He gives the blessing and here it is down here, 28 and 29, therefore… This is chapter 27 of Genesis, 28, 29. Therefore, God gave thee the dew of the earth and the fatness of the earth and plenty of corn and wine that people serve thee and nations bow down to thee, be Lord over thy brethren and let thy mother’s sons bow down to thee. Cursed be everyone that curse at thee and blessed be he that bless thee. Some of that reflects what Rebekah was giving in her revelation before they were born. You can’t say it is a hundred percent precisely Abrahamic covenant, and putting him in charge, but there are some echoes of it in there. While we’re right there, flip over to chapter 28. Here is Isaac again blessing Jacob and this time he says some similar things, but adds, and this definitely is Abrahamic covenant.

Dr. Camille Olson:  48:55  God almighty, bless thee and make thee fruitful and multiply thee that thou mayest be a multitude of people and give you the blessing of Abraham to thee and to thy seed with thee, that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.

Dr. Camille Olson:  49:12  So again, you wonder if we’ve got three different kinds of blessings: birthright, a father’s blessing, and then here the leadership of the covenant blessing, or if this is all one, given there. You can argue both ways, but we got to go back to 27 because it’s classic. Because Esau comes back, just after he finishes giving that blessing and Isaac seems to be confused, doesn’t he?

Hank Smith:  49:37  Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  49:38  He’s going-

Hank Smith:  49:39  Who?

Dr. Camille Olson:  49:40  And he said, “Wait a minute. Who are you?” Verse 32. “Oh, I’m your son, your first born Esau.” And Isaac trembled, verse 33, very exceedingly. He said, “Who? Where is he that has taken venison?” And verse 34 Esau heard the words of his father and cried with great and exceeding bitter cry. Bless me, even me also, oh my father. Thy brother came with subtlety and hath taken away thy blessing. Then Esau says, is not he rightly named Jacob for he has supplanted me these two times? He took away my birthright and behold now he’s taken away my blessing. So that does indicate kind of two separate kind of events here. Isaac does bless Esau and he gives him a great father’s blessing right there, but no indication as far as his brother serving him. That order was given to Jacob.

Hank Smith:  50:44  So Isaac knows. I don’t know. In my mind, I’m like “Isaac knows he gave the right blessing to Jacob.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  50:52  By the spirit, he definitely knows.

Hank Smith:  50:55  Yeah. At this point, he’s going, this needed to happen. He’s…

John Bytheway:  50:59  And what Camille read in Genesis 28:3,4, I’ve got in my margin Isaac confirms the right one got the birthright.

Hank Smith:  51:08  I’m team Esau. I like that he comes around later, but when he blames Jacob in verse 36, it reminds me of Laman and Lemuel, right? That we’re always wronged. Nephi is always taking it from me.

Dr. Camille Olson:  51:22  I’m the victim.

Hank Smith:  51:24  Yeah. And it’s like, you made the decision to trade the birthright. You married outside of the covenant. You did these things.

Dr. Camille Olson:  51:34  And so what is Esau’s response then? After we mourn my father… I won’t do it until my father’s gone because I don’t want to hurt his feelings, but this is end of verse 41. Then I will slay my brother, Jacob. That’ll take care of it.

Hank Smith:  51:49  That’s a very Laman and Lemuel attitude

Dr. Camille Olson:  51:52  Who is right there to say, “Hey, I got to save both of my boys.”? It’s Rebekah.

Hank Smith:  52:00  Yep.

Dr. Camille Olson:  52:01  And that’s where at the end of chapter 27. Flee thou to Laban my brother to Haran and tarry with him a few days until thy brother’s fury turn away. Oh, isn’t that a mother for you? It won’t take long and we’ll all be one big happy family here again.

Hank Smith:  52:20  A few days.

Dr. Camille Olson:  52:21  And then I’ll come and fetch you. And verse 46, Rebekah said to Isaac, “I am weary of my life because of the daughters of Heth.” I think we’re going back again to Esau, marrying out of the covenant. If Jacob take one of the daughters of Heth such as these, which are the daughters of the land, what good shall my life do me?

John Bytheway:  52:45  Is Heth the same as a Hittite?

Dr. Camille Olson:  52:48  Yeah. If you go back and… That table of nations.

John Bytheway:  52:53  Oh, that’s where-

Dr. Camille Olson:  52:54  You’ll find-

John Bytheway:  52:55  About Noah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  52:56  … where that’s connected. Yes.

Hank Smith:  52:59  Oh, poor Rebekah. You just feel for her.

Dr. Camille Olson:  53:01  I know. And so she says, can you say going by to Jacob and they’ve got a really close relationship and we’re going to be seeing that Jacob’s life go on and it’s going to be tough. It’s not an easy one. I mean, he’s going to have a rough… It’s going to be 20 years before he returns. And we don’t see Isaac and Rebekah when he comes back, right? And so this is saying goodbye.

Hank Smith:  53:23  I wonder Camille, if way back when Abraham’s servant found Rebekah, they needed that kind of sign because she’s got to be questioning herself after all this. Maybe I wasn’t the right person for the job.

Dr. Camille Olson:  53:37  I know. But I think, see isn’t that wonderful… That’s a marriage as far as… You can’t have someone who is there as a help meet for them unless you actually need them. And I’m not saying giving birth to those children were critical and the only thing… and she’s the only one that could do it. For Isaac to do what he needed in his priesthood position, her support, her inspiration, administrative skills made a difference. And I think he will bless Rebekah forever as Abraham will Sarah and vice versa. It isn’t just ideal in the way that you say, “Oh, this would be the cover of the Ensign.” I’d love to see more of Esau’s mindset after Jacob leaves. And he’s there with his wives and his children and Isaac and Rebekah and feeling like I have so disappointed them.

Dr. Camille Olson:  54:42  Look at verse six of chapter 28. When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob and sent him away to Padan-aram to take him a wife from thence and that as he blessed him, he gave him a charge saying thou shall not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. That Jacob obeyed his father and his mother and was gone to Padan-aram and Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father. I want to say this is a time of change of heart for Esau. It’s starting to dawn on him. “Wait a minute. I did this to myself.” Look what he does next in verse 9. Then Esau went to Ishmael. He knows right where Ishmael is and took unto the wives which he had, Mahalath, the daughter of Ishmael Abraham’s son, the sister of Nebajoth to be his wife. We see there in verse 9, Esau change direction and he marries one of Ishmael’s daughters.

Dr. Camille Olson:  55:47  Now you might say, oh, this is just window dressing. Not if you see Ishmael being of covenant and that he has blessings too. And what reinforces that is 20 years later here comes Jacob back with four wives and 12 sons and how many daughters? And he sees Esau coming to him from afar. Oh, it is the most beautiful, chapter 33.

Hank Smith:  56:18  I better send him gifts.

Dr. Camille Olson:  56:20  And Jacob is already feeling guilty. He’s going to say, oh, here it comes and he starts sending out-

Hank Smith:  56:25  Last time I saw him-

Dr. Camille Olson:  56:25  … all these gifts.

Hank Smith:  56:27  … he was going to kill me. Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  56:28  But chapter 33, verse 4, Esau ran to meet him. Oh, it’s Esau running. And he embraced him and fell on his neck and kissed him and wept, and they wept and he says, “Who are these?” And they introduced their families to each other. And then he asks, “Jacob, why are you giving me all of this? What meanest thou…” Verse 8. “By all this drove which I met?” And Jacob says, “These are to find grace in thine eyes.” And Esau says, “I have enough my brother. Keep thou that thou has to thyself.” I mean, it is a beautiful reunion and there’s no competition or animosity. I mean, there could still be… I don’t know how close you’re going to be living by each other after this, we don’t hear about Esau, but let’s not justify bad feelings between brothers today or between peoples. This is not the place to say, Palestinians and Israelis are enemies forever more because of Esau and Jacob or because of Isaac and Ishmael.

Dr. Camille Olson:  57:34  The Bible tells us the Lord’s plan of this family is one of redemption and with time incredible things happen and section 132, these husbands and wives do not sit on thrones, but are gods. They are exalted. And that’s just one of the generations right there, the real people and one day we will get to meet them and find out the parts of the story that I just messed up a whole lot.

John Bytheway:  58:06  Oh, it was beautiful. And I think, I loved… I can’t remember who said it Hank, but somebody talking about look, the Old Testament is messy, but it’s a book of redemption. So I love that you said that. It’s all about redemption. Thank heavens for all of us. It’s all about redemption.

Dr. Camille Olson:  58:25  Thank goodness they had each other, but especially, thanks be to God and his grace and mercy, to Jesus Christ who made all things possible.

Hank Smith:  58:35  Camille, what a great day! That reconciliation, that’s a beautiful moment. I feel so much more love for Rebekah, leaving her family behind, taking on… And it’s not like the Lord called her to this awesome situation. I mean, this is rough. This 20 years of being barren and then her sons are… She’s got to work this out between them.

Dr. Camille Olson:  59:03  I think they speak to men as well in the same way that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob speak to me and to women.

Hank Smith:  59:12  We want to thank Dr. Camille Fronk Olson for being with us today. Wow. Wow. Wow. Thank you all for listening. We’re grateful for your support. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson, and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson. And we hope everyone will join us next week for our next episode of followHIM.