Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you as together we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:20 Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith and I’m here with my covenant-keeping cohost, John Bytheway. John, we’re talking about Abraham today, and you’re like Abraham. You’re like Abraham to me. You’re a covenant keeper.

John Bytheway: 00:38 I thought you’re going to say something about my age, but that’s great. Yeah, thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:42 No, no.

John Bytheway: 00:43 I’ll take it.

Hank Smith: 00:43 We’re talking about Abraham today, and I figured you two were friends.

John Bytheway: 00:46 No, no, we were roommates, actually.

Hank Smith: 00:49 Oh.

John Bytheway: 00:52 We are excited to have with us Dr. Jennifer Lane today, and she is a Neal A. Maxwell research associate at the Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship and professor emerita at Brigham Young University-Hawaii. She received her PhD in religion with an emphasis in history of Christianity from Claremont Graduate University. She graduated with University Honors in history at Brigham Young University and completed her MA at BYU with an emphasis in ancient Near Eastern studies. Hank, every week I’m just blown away by the breadth of scholarship. And she served in the leadership both of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology and the Latter-Day Saints in the Bible section of the Society of Biblical Literature, and is currently on the Board of the Religious Study Center. She served as the Dean of Religious Education and Associate Academic Vice President for Curriculum at BYU-Hawaii.

John Bytheway: 01:47 She has published over 25 articles and book chapters on context and analysis of scripture, theology, and medieval studies. And I want to make sure we talk about this recent volume, Finding Christ in the Covenant Path: Ancient Insights for Modern Life. I’m so thankful that there’s people who know this stuff and who write about it so that we can go get it and read. And I think if my eyes don’t deceive me, I see a copy of that behind you, Jennifer. Could you hold that up closer to the camera for us?

Dr. Jennifer C….: 02:18 Sure.

John Bytheway: 02:18 I want people to be able to see it on the podcast. Hank, don’t we have some sources that we use, aren’t there notes about that sometimes?

Hank Smith: 02:27 Yeah, over on the website. Yeah, followhim.co, followhim.co, you can go over there and you’ll be able to find it, a link to it.

John Bytheway: 02:33 So that’s a great title, Finding Christ in the Covenant Path. A phrase that President Nelson has made part of our everyday conversations. And we’re so happy to have you, Dr. Lane. Thank you for joining us. You spent a lot of years in Hawaii and now you’re in Provo?

Dr. Jennifer C….: 02:48 Yes, and I loved being in Hawaii and now I’m delighted to be here. So it’s just great to keep working and serving and learning. So it’s great to be here with you all today. Thank you so much.

Hank Smith: 03:00 Dr. Lane, I want to start out by just asking you as a teacher, how do you help your students approach ancient scripture like the Bible to make sure they’re using it appropriately, in its context, and understanding its people? How do you help them approach it so they’re not misapplying scripture?

Dr. Jennifer C….: 03:22 It’s a challenge for all of us as Latter-day Saints. I’ve been teaching for almost 25 years and I try to help students understand, we want to hear the voice of the Lord, but we need to learn to hear the voice of the Lord both in our own lives, but we need to understand that when reading these scripture texts, he’s speaking to them in their language, in their world. So we have to learn to hear the voice of the Lord in context. Unlike the Book of Mormon, which was written for our day, that prophets were inspired to know what we needed to hear, the Old Testament and the New Testament were not written for our day. And so we have to get back into the world. We always, at the beginning of any semester, spend time talking about, what is the context? What would people in this world have, how would they have understood things.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 04:09 And in some ways it’s a little easier for the New Testament because we’re looking at a short period of time, but the Old Testament, it’s hundreds of years. It’s varied. But I think there are some patterns and some general concepts. And one of the things that drove a lot of my research during my teaching years was, what can I do to help students understand better? And what I found are some concepts. I used word studies, so I did study Hebrew as a masters. I went on to do History of Christianity, so I left the biblical world and studied more. How is the Bible understood by Christians through time? But a lot of my early work, both my honors thesis, my master’s thesis, was rooted in key word studies. So looking at concepts I think are going to help us a lot today as well, digging into, what did a covenant mean in the ancient world? How did a name work? What was the meaning of a name?

Dr. Jennifer C….: 05:04 And then that’s actually tied to redemption, which it comes up very lightly in the story of Abraham, but it’s actually going to be the root of themes that run all throughout the Old Testament and actually throughout the Book of Mormon as well. So covenant, name, redemption, and even knowing, the idea of knowledge. What it means in the ancient world is different than in a modern sense. And I could talk about each of them in more depth, but just to give you an overview, those are some terms I try to introduce to students as we work through the material so that they can start to read and hear the voice of the Lord, hear the revelations as they were intended a little bit more, the people for whom they were given.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 05:46 So prophets speak for the Lord, but they speak to different audiences. And so the prophets need to use the language as the Lord communicates to them that is going to make sense to the people that they’re speaking to. And so we just have to learn new vocabulary. We have to find new ways of thinking and not just assume that because we use a word this way, it’s going to mean the same thing in their world.

Hank Smith: 06:09 I like that, don’t assume that when you read a word that it means what you think it means. We have to see it the way they would have seen it. John Walton says the Bible is an ancient document. It’s not a document that was written to us. It wasn’t written in our language. It wasn’t written with our culture in mind or our culture in view. We need to try to enter their world. I like that idea. I think that’s what you said, right there, is we need to enter their world. Hear it as their audience would have heard it and as their author would have meant it and read it in those terms. I like that, Jennifer, because then we can be a little more careful in our application. Because if we don’t come into it understanding their world, we could misapply what the Lord is saying, what they’re saying, where we might read into it something that’s really not there.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 07:00 Yeah, and this is absolutely something I feel strongly enough about that not only did it drive a lot of my research and writing, but it actually, what led me, I had a sabbatical back in 2018, and I’d been in administration for about 11 years. And so I hadn’t had a lot of time for research and writing, but I had a little window of time. And that’s what actually part of what led me to write the book I did, is to synthesize the work, to bring it together for a larger audience. And the first half of the book really is about these ancient words. And so each chapter takes a word and develops it. And by understanding the word in its ancient context, it actually helps us understand the gospel so much better, because these concepts of covenant, name, redemption, knowledge, worship, all of these are so deep and so rich.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 07:48 And they unlock, they’re keys to understand both what the Old Testament’s teaching, but also in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon, all through the Book of Mormon. Because it’s so deeply rooted in the Old Testament world that we can understand Old Testament covenants and concepts and terms better, we understand the gospel better, what’s being taught. Because it’s using that language, we need to learn that language.

Hank Smith: 08:14 Well, I’m ready. John, you feel like we’re … Let’s do it then. Yeah, I’m ready to learn the language.

John Bytheway: 08:20 We’ve already used the word covenant so many times today. And I love that President Nelson has emphasized so much the gathering part of the covenant. And I just don’t remember as a youth knowing how important Abraham was in that. And so I’m glad we’re talking about this today and I’m glad that President Nelson has emphasized it so much.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 08:43 He’s used this language for quite a long time, the idea of being children of the covenant. And this is a powerful concept. Again, it’s very deeply rooted in biblical thinking. Covenant, a lot of times in modern times when we explain it we’d say it was like a contract. But in the ancient world it’s not like a contract. It’s not about business. It’s not about a relationship that you can just walk away from, that you’re really creating a new relationship. And that’s part of why the image of marriage and the image of adoption both run throughout scriptures, because you have parties that didn’t used to be related and that then create a new relationship. So when you’re adopted and you take a child into your family, you create a new relationship. When two people come together and marry, they create a new relationship. Yeah, and that is really what covenant’s talking about.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 09:28 So you’ll see President Nelson using the language becoming children of the covenant, and that, it is absolutely biblically rooted. It is what’s happening. And it also helps us understand, why do we see names? Why do we see new names? Because a name in the ancient world, it expresses a relationship. So part of it is you belong. So when someone’s adopted, they’ll take a new name. Sometimes when people marry, it’s culturally dependent, of course, but often you’ll have a shared family name. And so the name expresses the relationship. It expresses a sense of belonging. Elder Gong has used the idea of covenant belonging and that’s a powerful image as well. And President Oaks has a beautiful book on this, but the idea of a name. In its deepest sense in the ancient world it talks about nature. So when you enter into a covenant you have a new relationship, but you also there’s a potential for a new nature.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 10:23 And then we’re going to see that with Abraham as well, covenant, name tied together. And this is where my own research started 30 years ago, going into the Old Testament and thinking about redemption. Why was the Lord the Redeemer of Israel? That term is used over and over again, the Redeemer of Israel. But the more I studied, I realized this is actually, again, it’s culturally rooted, that in the ancient Near East people would become slaves or they’d be in bondage. You see that language a lot in scripture, right? But people could be bought out of bondage because you buy the payment of a price. And that’s such a powerful gospel concept, that Christ pays a price for us to buy us out of bondage. But it also comes, again, it comes from a real world, that people either as prisoners of war could become slaves or put into bondage, or else people become so poor they would actually sell their children. So the debt bondage.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 11:24 And this is what’s so beautiful about the Hebrew. There’s a general Semitic verb, padah, which means to redeem. But in Hebrew there’s a verb that’s only in Hebrew, it’s ga‘al. And the noun form, the go’el, is the redeemer. It could also be translated as “kinsman redeemer.” So the oldest male member of a family would have a family obligation to buy back people that had become enslaved. And the kinsman redeemer, the go’el, would be the one who, because of a family relationship, would bring people back. When the prophets talk about the Lord as the Redeemer of Israel, so Jehovah, who we know of course is Jesus Christ, the God of the Old Testament, that this is a key part of his identity, is that he, and this is again what President Nelson keeps pushing us to understand, as children of the covenant that we have this relationship with the Lord.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 12:23 And part of what we can have confidence in is that as our Kinsman-redeemer he will come to get us. He will buy us out of bondage. And all of us, we’re in bondage in different ways. Usually it’s to sin, some part of fallen nature, a way of being that isn’t as godly as it should be. And so bringing us from bondage to the world and moving us into a more godly way of being ultimately into the presence of God, that’s the image of redemption. So seeing how covenant and redemption tie together really helps scriptures come alive. And you see connections and you can understand, why is the Lord, why does he have this particular relationship to Israel? It’s because of the covenants.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 13:02 Why does he have his particular relationship to Israel? It’s because of the covenants that were made. And actually the covenants that go back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The covenants, the patriarchs, were … And you see this in, in both Exodus, you see it in Deuteronomy and even in the 1 Nephi, the reason the Lord redeems Israel is because of the covenant to the patriarchs. He remembers that covenant. He knows this covenant relationship. And he’s going to act to redeem.

Hank Smith: 13:28 One thing that our previous guests have … have told us, and I guess I didn’t know before, that these stories that we’ve read so far, Adam and Eve, Noah, and the Tower, all of this is background. It’s leading us up to these, these Fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It’s, it’s all background information to what they really want to talk about. Right? What the author really wants to talk about.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 13:53 I think it’s absolutely right. As far as the way, the, the Old Testament’s structured, that everything else is prelude. And when you get to Abraham and you get to the covenant, then everything starts. The story really starts.

Hank Smith: 14:06 Right. And for a Latter-day Saint reader, you might just go, oh, they’re just telling us the entire story. They wanted to … They start with Adam and Eve because they’re the beginning. But it’s like, well, here’s the background you need in order to understand Abraham.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 14:19 I think it would be helpful to start with Abraham 1, and, and right before we start at the Abraham one, I’ll actually throw in a quote from Isaiah, which is fascinating. This is in Isaiah 29, verse 22. And Isaiah refers to Jehovah, the God of Israel, as the Lord who redeemed Abraham. And so we, we think about redemption of the people that are  the children of Israel, but, but Isaiah has a sense that this is also on a personal level as well.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 14:52 And I think in the Book of Abraham, we, we start to see how that’s happening. One is on a personal level from the danger that he’s in, he’s being delivered. So there’s a kind of redemption that’s happening there. But the fact that he’s leaving the world behind and moving to a holier place, a holier way of being, that that’s redemption as well. And we definitely see that theme throughout the Book of Mormon.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 15:14 So to understand his story, I think it’s realizing that we’re seeing our story, that the Lord wants to establish covenants with each of his children. He wants us to be redeemed. Perhaps turn together to Abraham Chapter 1 and start to see.

Hank Smith: 15:31 One thing I think I’ve noticed in the Bible is that whenever there’s a problem, a big problem, the Lord chooses kind of some–nobody, just this person, right? And says with you, I’m going to use you. And we’re going to fix the world. See it with Abraham. I look at Samuel, he’s just this kid. Mary, just this girl from Nazareth. I mean he uses a fisherman. He uses Joseph Smith. It’s just to me, I’m like, wow, he, he doesn’t go after … He doesn’t go find a king or a prince.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 16:06 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 16:06 He goes and finds one citizen and, and you’re my person.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 16:09 Yes.

Hank Smith: 16:09 We’re going to use you.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 16:11 No, I think that that is a really important pattern to pay attention to. And it’s incredibly important for us to feel the truth of in our own lives. For me, that passage in Exodus 3, where Jehovah is talking with Moses and he’s telling him the mission he has for him. And Moses says, “Who, who am I? Who am I to do this great work to bring … “

Dr. Jennifer C….: 16:31 And what … But I think what is incredibly important is what the Lord says. Because Moses might be looking for a pat on the back. He might be looking for a thumbs up. You’re great. You can do it. You’re amazing. That’s–but that’s not what the Lord says. He says, “I will be with thee.”

Dr. Jennifer C….: 16:47 And I think when we can look for that answer and we can feel that answer, and that comes through covenant, it comes through making and keeping covenants. The Lord promises He’ll be with us. And when we put our trust in Him and don’t worry about ourselves, then we can have the confidence that we can do whatever He asked us to do, because it’s not about us. It’s not about our capacity. It’s about his capacity and that’s infinite. And so we don’t need to be afraid. We can have the confidence to go forward if we put our trust in him.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 17:17 And that’s why, of course, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel. It’s not faith in ourselves. It’s not self confidence. It’s trusting the Lord that He will be with us when we are true to Him. We try to–when we make and keep covenants.

John Bytheway: 17:33 I love in 3 Nephi where they’re all, can you please stay? And he says, “My time is at hand.” And then 3 Nephi 18 comes. Here’s how you can always have my Spirit to be with you. And He institutes the … the sacrament. I–I’m glad you said that. That’s a good way to think of it. It’s not something you can do. It’s …  we can do it because I’m going to be with you.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 17:51 And that’s precisely what covenant’s are for is that–so that we can have these covenant promises. Having the Holy Ghost with us if we’re faithful to our covenants. That… that’s how the Lord is with us. That, that … And, and then likewise, when you move on from baptism to the endowment, and–but he says, he’s going to be with us through his Spirit, through his power, his enabling, his grace. He’s, he’s going to be with us. And it’s the covenant promises that give us that confidence that we’re not alone, that he will be with us. The sacrament every week is a chance to, to remember precisely that. So great connection.

Hank Smith: 18:27 The world’s gone a little bit wrong with the Tower. And so the Lord says, all right, Abraham, you’re my guy. And I’ve noticed Abraham’s not perfect.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 18:37 No, no, no one is-

Hank Smith: 18:37 Right, as you read through this, he makes some mistakes. And you would think the Lord might go. Now I’m gonna- you’re not my guy anymore. I’m going to go find someone else. But He sticks with him. He sticks with him in his imperfections.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 18:49 He tells him to be perfect at the beginning of, of Genesis 17. But the word could better be translated as whole or complete. And I think it is sort of what happens to us once we repent. That–because it’s a process of coming into Christ. And so we’re not … Making covenants and being on the covenant path doesn’t mean we don’t make mistakes. It means we keep repenting. We keep looking to Christ. We have confidence that He can forgive us. He can heal us. He can make us right. And, and we can, we can move … We can keep moving forward.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 19:17 And so I think that’s what, what Abraham had confidence that he could keep moving forward. And so that what–that brought him the wholeness and the completeness that he was with the Lord. If he slipped a little bit, he repented, he came back. And, and it’s a, it’s a daily pattern like President Nelson tells us. Repenting daily is the greatest privilege and blessing because of the Atonement. And Abraham, he lived that. And that’s part of how he lived a whole life and a complete life.

Hank Smith: 19:42 Right. Yeah. I, I was very comforted by that. That the Lord said, “Here, Abraham, you’re, here’s my guy, you’re my guy. And here’s this land.” And he goes to Egypt. Right? And the Lord’s like, okay. And he could have, he could have given up on him, but he, he doesn’t. I- the … almost the message of Abraham to me, when I, as I was reading was, the Lord will keep his promise. He, He will- He’s not going to give up on you.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 20:07 If we’re looking for Him, He’ll be there for us. And He, He respects our agency. He, He honors our agency. In fact, let’s, let’s look. Because I think Abraham Chapter 1 is such a powerful way of understanding how does this story start? And so, again, with the Pearl of Great Price, and I know you’ve had Kerry Muhlestein talked more about kind of how these fit together, we get some of the backstory. And it’s … I love the first couple verses of the Book of Abraham because what it tells me, again, it- to me, it’s so relatable. It’s so personal because you have somebody in a culture, in a context, where they realize this world is not going to make me happy. This world doesn’t offer what I need. There’s something missing. And so there’s sort of a seeking soul.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 20:57 And so if you look in verse 1, “The land of the Chaldeans, at the residents of my fathers, I, Abraham saw. …” And this is his realization. This isn’t good enough. There’s something more. And this is the sort of what leads people towards Lehi’s Vision towards the tree. What leads people to get on the path. That there’s more, there’s something else. “It was needful for me to obtain another place of residence. …” I don’t want to be … This isn’t the world I want to live in. This isn’t the kind of life I want to live. And so everyone has … To take the journey we have to recognize that we don’t want to stay where we’re at.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 21:33 And so if you look in verse 2, Abraham really gets into explaining this very deep, personal journey.  He says, “Finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me. …” There’s something more. The world is not giving me what I’m looking for. “I sought it for the blessings of the fathers, and v the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself, a follower of righteousness. …”

Dr. Jennifer C….: 22:00 So this is, again, someone who- who’s living up to all the light he has, or at least trying to, but not- recognizing he doesn’t have everything. And so he’s seeking for more. And I love what he says next. And this is always what it comes back to. You see that theme over and over again in the scripture, especially the Book of Mormon, what do we want? What we want is what we’re going to do. So here he’s desiring to be one who possessed greater knowledge, to be a greater follower of righteousness and to possess a greater knowledge.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 22:36 And here, this isn’t knowledge in the sense, going back to this ancient concept, it’s not knowledge in the sense of like he wanted to build a database. This is, this is knowledge in the sense of he wants to, to come to know God. He wants to take on the attributes and the qualities of God. So being a greater follower of righteousness. Greater knowledge is his wanting to be more like God. He feels that call. And that that is, is leading him onward.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 23:05 President Benson talked about this. And I love sharing this passage with students because sometimes people read it and say, oh, well, this is only for the men because it’s about being ordained to a priesthood office. And, President Benson says, no. This is what President Benson says. He says, “I believe that a proper understanding or background will measurely help prepare our youth for the temple and will foster within them a desire to seek their priesthood blessings just as Abraham sought his.”

Dr. Jennifer C….: 23:39 So what is Abraham looking for? He wants an endowment. He wants the priesthood blessings that come with making and keeping covenants. And so when we understand that Abraham seeking for his priesthood blessings, he’s seeking for the blessing of the New and Everlasting Covenant, the blessings of the temple, then that puts everything in context.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 23:59 And this is, again, going back, we talked about President Nelson and he spoke about this over and over again. And this is just in the last General Conference, a powerful quote from him where he just recently taught, “In every age, the temple has underscored the precious truth that those who make covenants with God and keep them are the children of the covenants.” And we just, we talked about that, right? So making covenants, keeping covenants allow us us to be children of the covenant.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 24:27 And then he says, “Thus, in the house of the Lord, we can make the same covenants with God that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made. And we can receive the same blessings.” So everything that Abraham’s seeking for, on our best days, that’s what we’re seeking for as well. And the way we find that greater peace, the way we find the greater happiness and rest, the greater knowledge, the greater righteousness, is through our priesthood blessings. It’s through the covenant and receiving the endowment.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 25:04 And then, of course, Abraham’s not just that, but then also temple marriage and the blessings. But the- these priesthood blessings are temple blessings. And so this is universally applicable.

John Bytheway: 25:16 Can I ask a question here? I remember in seminary, there’s really nothing humorous about, on the previous page, the facsimile where Abraham is about to be-

Dr. Jennifer C….: 25:25 Oh yeah.

John Bytheway: 25:25 … sacrificed.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 25:26 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 25:27 But I remember our teacher saying, you know, look, here’s the wicked priest of Elkenah, however you say that. Abraham on that altar. And then reading verse one with- which sounded like quite the understatement. Abraham says, “You know, it’s needful for me to obtain another place of residency.”

Hank Smith: 25:44 (laughs).

John Bytheway: 25:45 “And I need to move or … “

Dr. Jennifer C….: 25:46 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 25:47 … ’cause he’s about to be sacrificed-

Dr. Jennifer C….: 25:48 This isn’t working. Being sacrificed is not working for me. I need-

John Bytheway: 25:50 Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 25:50 (laughs)

John Bytheway: 25:52 But the thing I wanted to ask a question about, which I find so interesting, is usually when we talk about the fathers, we’re talking about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And there’s Abraham himself in-

John Bytheway: 26:03 … Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And there’s Abraham himself in verse two saying, “I sought for the blessings of the fathers.” And it’s like, “Wait a minute. You are the fathers. You and your son and your grandson.” And so I’ve wondered. Okay, that’s what? Adam, Seth.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 26:17 Yes. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 26:18 Enoch. Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 26:18 Exactly. And this is part of, again, insights we have because of the Restoration where we realize the New and Everlasting Covenant it’s a synonym for the Abrahamic covenant, but it didn’t start with Abraham. And so the way the Bible’s structured, it all leads up to Abraham, because it starts with Abraham. But we know through the Restoration, and you get insights in the Book of Moses that Adam and Eve and all of the early fathers, they had that covenant relationship as well.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 26:49 The blessings of the New and Everlasting Covenant were there from the beginning. They were restored again in Abraham’s time. These were the blessings we actually know from Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants that it was this New and Everlasting Covenant, these full priesthood, Melchizedek priesthood blessings at the temple that the Lord wanted to establish with the children of Israel, but they were afraid. Because of course, faith leads us to make covenants. If we’re afraid, we’re not going to make covenants. And that’s what we learned. It’s really sad and sobering. The Lord, they were willing to covenant, but it was a lesser covenant. It was the Levitical/Aaronic Priesthood covenant.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 27:27 So law of Moses, they start high, all through Adam and Eve and all of the ancient patriarchs up to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But then when you get to the Lord reestablishing his covenant with Moses and the children of Israel at that time, the people as a whole do not enter into the fullness of the New and Everlasting Covenant because they were afraid to do that.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 27:49 And as a part of just trusting the Lord enough to be willing to bind ourselves to him and to be willing to live in his ways, to sanctify ourselves, it takes faith to leave the world behind, it takes faith to sanctify yourself. And that’s what Section 84 suggests, is that they didn’t have that faith so that they were willing to enter into this Levitical covenant, this the law of Moses.

John Bytheway: 28:12 So when we talk about the Abrahamic Covenant, it sounds like some before Abraham were given similar promises of posterity and of the blessings of the gospel and even bearing the ministry. And maybe we could say, but Abraham followed it so well. I’m kind of thinking of, “Well, we call it the Melchizedek Priesthood because he was such a great high priest.” But actually the name is, and is this similar where we call the Abrahamic Covenant, but others before him were made similar promises or God made similar covenants with them.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 28:44 I think it’s a good way of understanding it. I mean, again, as Latter-day Saints this isn’t Restoration understanding. It wouldn’t be true for most Christians reading. They’re going to say, “Wait, it starts with Abraham.” For us as Latter-day Saints, we say, “No, it’s there earlier.” But it is clear that Abraham is special and that the Lord tells him that it’s going to be essentially after his name, that we’ll get into some of those texts a little bit more.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 29:09 Most of the Old Testament is sort of under the law of Moses, but the covenant promises are still there. They’re still the children of the covenant. They’re still the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are available for them, just like they were redeemed because of the covenant made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that the Lord remembers his people and they were still his people. But you have that passage in Jeremiah, where he’s going to bring back this new covenant, he’ll establish a new covenant in the hearts, that’s what Christ is coming. He’s coming to restore the New and Everlasting Covenant that had been there with Abraham, and had been there with the early Saints.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 29:45 But yeah, we definitely used the term Abrahamic covenant because Abraham is special, but it’s essentially a synonym for the New and Everlasting Covenant. So it’s new every time, it’s restored, but it’s everlasting because it’s the way home, but it refers to all of the gospel and all of the covenants involved in the gospel.

Hank Smith: 30:05 I like that. It’s new and everlasting. It’s new and old at the same time.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 30:10 Exactly. And so with new again with Abraham, yeah.

Hank Smith: 30:14 Everybody comes to a Abraham Chapter 1, verse 1 and 2 moment I think in life where they realize, “There’s got to be more than entertainment or money or … ” Do you remember that old video John, Families Can Be Together Forever? I can’t remember. Anyway, they said … They asked people, “What’s the purpose of life?” And one guy said, “Well, I’m just living to retirement. I’m just working to retirement.” And I think everybody comes to these moments. Every human being comes to these moments. I think I did. I remember being younger and the kind of laying down at night going, “There’s got to be a purpose to all this. Right? There’s got to be more than just entertainment. There’s got to be more than just sports.”

John Bytheway: 31:00 Right.

Hank Smith: 31:01 Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 31:02 Whatever it is that we’re putting first in our life. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 31:06 I hope all of us have Abraham Chapter 1, verse 2 moments where, “You know, I need to be a greater follower. I need to have a greater knowledge. I’ve been surrounded by this, but I want to do better. I want to have a greater knowledge. I want to have … “

Dr. Jennifer C….: 31:22 I think about this Chapter 1. And it’s really easy to treat the worship of these other gods and idle worship and sacrifices, like to think this is unique to the ancient world. President Kimball’s statement about whatever we put our trust in is our God is a very sobering statement. And I think, as we can make, sort of liken unto ourselves and we can make the experiences, even though our father’s friends aren’t necessarily going to be putting us on a literal altar, that we might be in family situations or with friends where we are spiritually at risk. And we may decide, I can’t stay here, that this is not the world I want to be in anymore. Because whether it’s family members or friends, what their worlds revolve around, what they’re worshiping, we’d realize this is getting in the way of the kind of worship I want, the true worship.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 32:25 And this first from the preface to the Doctrine and Covenants Section 1 is the preface of the Doctrine and Covenants. This passage in verse 16 to me, really speaks to me. And so what is going on here with Abraham is the same it’s going on with us and how we’re being invited, as you said. Elder Uchtdorf used the phrase, “A daily restoration,” to come back to ourselves and to remember what’s real. So in Section 1, verse 16, this is really an explanation of why is the Restoration here? Why are the covenants and priesthood blessings being restored? It’s to help us reorient ourselves, because this is the problem with the world. It says they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 33:11 So what makes Abraham different is he’s seeking the Lord, and that’s what makes us different. We start to seek the Lord. But the world isn’t seeking the Lord. They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness. “But every man walketh in his own way, after the image of his own God, whose image is in the likeness of the world and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great shall fall.”

Dr. Jennifer C….: 33:43 So we have Babylon as the symbol of the world. We have Egypt as a symbol of the world. Whatever the symbol is, the historical context we’re in, we all have to choose to leave that. We have to want to say there’s something better, something different, and to not try to hold onto it like Elder Maxwell warned us not to try it at the summer cottage in Babylon. We have to decide. I really, really, I want to be like Abraham. I’m willing to leave this behind. I’m trusting that there’s something better for me.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 34:10 And I think making covenants and keeping covenants is trusting that what the kind of life that obedience and faithfulness and worshiping God gives us is better than what the world can offer us. It’s a deep level, the kind of holiness is happiness. It’s believing that, trusting that. And then walking in the Lord’s ways.

Hank Smith: 34:33 There’s been days where I thought to myself, “I don’t want to be stuck on a screen anymore. I don’t want to be staring at my phone anymore. I want something better than this. I want something better than watching people fight on social media. I want something better than this.” And that is a form of idolatry, right? Putting all your confidence in your social media feed or putting all your confidence in what people or who’s liking my picture.

John Bytheway: 34:59 Well, gosh, President Nelson, I mean, he said that at the last [General] Conference. “If most of the information you get comes from social media, your ability to feel the Spirit will be diminished.” I mean, it was really, wow, what a statement.

John Bytheway: 35:12 And I wanted to mention something that it’s in the Come, Follow Me manual because we’re here. We’re talking about our desires, what do we want. And you said that Jennifer beautifully. But the first paragraph in that lesson manual quotes President Dallin H. Oaks. He said, “As important as it is to lose every desire for sin, eternal life requires more. To achieve our eternal destiny, we will desire and work for the qualities required to become an eternal being. If this seems too difficult, and surely it is not easy for any of us, then we should begin with the desire for such qualities and call upon our loving Heavenly Father for help with our feelings.”

John Bytheway: 35:54 So I like this Abraham. And if some of us aren’t desiring that, it sounds like President Oaks is saying pray for the desire to desire that and to have our desires refined by God.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 36:09 Which is, I think, the gospel message that’s to Alma 32, “If you could no more than desire.” But part of it’s believe. But it’s believe, but part of his believing that this is a way of being that’s going to make you happy, that I think it might, but I’m going to give it a try.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 36:25 And so the experiment on the word is really having faith in Christ to live his way and to do things his way. And then to feel that influence, what’s growing up and a swelling. That’s the Holy Ghost working in us, helping to change our heart. The Lord won’t change our heart without our permission because we’re agents. But when we want that, when we’re starting to seek it, when we’re starting to ask for it, then he can help us. He can change us.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 36:54 And I still love Abraham 1, so here Abraham has been delivered from the immediate threat of physical danger, and the Lord is speaking to him. And he introduces himself. And, “I’ve heard thy name. My name is Jehovah.”. So I’ve heard thee. “I’ve come down to deliver thee and to take thee away, to bring you to a new place.” But you go to verse 18, and I love this, because again, this I think goes to help us understand covenant. When we want to be different, we have enough faith to make covenants. And whether it’s being baptized or being willing to go to the temple, to receive our endowment, or having the faith to get married and to say, “Eternity with you, I don’t know, but I’m going to give it a try because … “Not because I trust you, but because I trust the Lord.” And the Lord’s going to help me become more celestial and the Lord’s going to help you become more celestial. And that he’s going to be with us. That the confidence is in him.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 37:51 And I love this in verse 18. He says, “I will … ” This is the Lord speaking to Abraham about this new life he’s starting. “I will lead thee by my hand, and I will take thee, to put upon thee my name. Even the Priesthood of thy father, and my power shall be over thee.” So to me, this is, he’s talking about the temple blessings. He’s talking about priesthood blessings, and that this is universal. It applies to men and women.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 38:20 Again, another quote from President Nelson, where he says, this is back in October of 2019. He’s speaking to women, but he’s just trying to make it clear that these … having the name, Lord’s name put upon us, this is what … I mean, it starts at baptism, but we know it happens more fully in the temple, that he will be with us more fully because of the endowment. So this is President Nelson.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 38:45 “Because the Melchizedek priesthood has been restored, both covenant keeping women and men have access to all the spiritual blessings of the Church.” Or we might say to all the spiritual treasures the Lord has for his children that he’s going to be with us and give us his name as truly …

Dr. Jennifer C….: 39:03 That he’s going to be with us and give us his name is surely among the greatest spiritual treasures we could ask for. He continues, “Every woman and every man who makes covenants with God and keeps those covenants and who participates worthily impriested ordinances has direct access to the power of God.” What is he saying here? My power shall be over thee.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 39:24 Then, President Nelson again. “Those who are endowed in the house of the Lord receive a gift of God’s priesthood power by virtue of their covenant, along with a gift of knowledge to know how to draw upon that power.” You look in [verse] 19, you can see… This is what we were talking about before. It didn’t start with Abraham. “As it was with Noah, so shall it be with thee. …” This is a pattern and the Lord wants to make the same covenant with us that he made with Abraham so we can have the same power in our lives that he was willing to give Abraham.

John Bytheway: 40:02 I see. I love that because now we’re talking… Because here’s Abraham saying, “I sought for blessings of the fathers,” and here’s the Lord mentioning Noah, somebody that came before Abraham, and as it was with Noah, so shall it be with thee.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 40:18 Again, but we become his, so we serve him. Right? But through thy ministry, when we make covenants, we’re then under obligation to serve and to bless others, that, “Through thy ministry my name shall be known in the earth forever, for I am thy God.”

John Bytheway: 40:34 In verse 18, “To put upon thee my name when we are baptized we take upon us the name of Christ.” There’s also a new name later. This is so interesting to me. I remember learning about King Tut and seeing that he had a pre nomen in a cartouche, and then when his name became Tutankhamun, however you say it, he got a new cartouche, and that the name of God is always in their name somewhere, and the hieroglyphics don’t read in the order you might think because the name of God is always put on the top. Something I remember in that right. But I love how often the name of God is in the name of prophets in the Old Testament. Daniel, Ezekiel. There’s the El, or Ya that Jehovah in putting God’s name on them. I don’t know if that’s what this is talking about, but I think when we take upon us the name of Christ, “I will put upon thee my name.”

Dr. Jennifer C….: 41:35 Yeah. Actually there’s a great passage in Section 109, dedicatory prayer to the Kirtland Temple. This helps us understand, again, what temples are for. Both President Oaks, then Elder Oaks and Elder Bednar have spoken about this, that the baptism is the start of receiving the name of the Lord. It’s pointing ahead to a time where we’re going to more fully take upon ourselves, and that’s with the temple. And in Section 109 verse 22, part of the prayer is that, “The servants may go forth from this house armed with thy power and that thy name may be upon them.” Again, Abraham was seeking for his temple blessings and that’s why the Lord wants temple blessings.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 42:23 It’s so abundantly clear with the urgency that President Nelson’s feeling to make sure that everyone has a chance to receive their endowment, to receive their temple blessings, to be able to be married in the temple, but also to attend as often as possible. Because as we remember what these blessings are, as we perform the work for others vicariously that we are able to receive additional power, that we can go forth from his house armed with his power. That’s what the Lord wanted for Abraham, but he wants for every single one of us.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 42:58 I think Abraham, he’s the beginning, but he also is a type of what does the Lord want to give each of us, and that’s what the Restoration’s for, is to make that possible.

Hank Smith: 43:10 I noticed also, Jennifer, it’s I want to give you my name and then you have responsibilities to take this to the world. It’s not just about you now. Verse 19, “Through thy ministry, my name now shall be known to the earth forever.” So Abraham, we’re going to use you and your family. We’re going to bless everybody.

John Bytheway: 43:32 I think about what you said. I remember President Oaks, you mentioned he talked about in the sacrament prayer. We say that we are willing to take upon us his name, but it becomes stronger in the temple. I can’t remember exactly how he worded it, but I think about a literal way of… My daughter’s on a mission in Tahiti right now where she has taken the name of Christ. It’s on her name tag. We literally put it on us, and I think that’s a fun application, an interesting application of that, to put his name on us and to show the world this is who I stand with, this is who I represent. I love that.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 44:09 That’s a great privilege that missionaries have to do that. The rest of us, it’s not as visible. We have to live in such a way people can see it, but it is certainly a privilege and it’s a privilege that is part of being, to live up to that responsibility to live for him, and that this idea we belong to him, but that also we’re becoming like him. As we try to live that out, we can and will be of service to minister, to bless in his name, to do what we do for him.

John Bytheway: 44:44 There’s something I don’t want to miss because I think it’s so interesting, and that is the Daughters of Onitah in verse 11 and 12. I heard one of our previous scholars that we interviewed, Brother S. Michael Wilcox, once talked about the Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, and kind of a parallel of their story with these three females, these Daughters of Onitah. Hank, you’ve said you know the names of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, the other names they had. I forgot what those were.

Hank Smith: 45:21 Yeah. They were taken by Babylon and given new names. Maybe there’s a symbol in that, too, Jennifer, the idea of Babylon will take us.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 45:30 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 45:30 And give us a new name.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 45:31 Because a name tells you who you are, your identity. Who you let name you does matter.

Hank Smith: 45:41 Yeah. Babylon takes these three Jewish boys and names them Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, but their names were Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. I do think there’s a parallel here, John, to that Abraham 1:11. These girls, these virgins, were offered up because of their virtue. They refused. They refused to worship other gods.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 46:04 This is powerful, that language right there. Again, it goes back to hwh and abad in Hebrew, two words get translated, worship, and one is to bow down and the other is to serve. It says here they would not bow down to worship gods of wood or stone. They were killed. This sort of I will worship Jehovah. The putting the Lord first, being true sometimes comes at a cost. The Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, they’re rescued. Here, they’re not.

John Bytheway: 46:37 But these are not. Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 46:38 They’re not.

John Bytheway: 46:38 That’s like Abinadi. Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-nego saved from the flames, Abinadi wasn’t. These daughters were not. They’re heroes for their virtue. Wow. That’s a sobering story about those Daughters of Onitah. Jennifer, I am so intrigued by this. We get worship from two Hebrew words, to bow down and to serve.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 46:59 Right.

John Bytheway: 47:00 Can you elaborate?

Dr. Jennifer C….: 47:02 Absolutely. There’s two verbs that are most often translated worship. We see worship when we’re reading through, it’s either going to be hava or abad. One of them means to bow down literally and the other is to serve. When we’re bowing down, that’s going to be service and that relationship we have with God, worshiping and being in the right relationship with him, and then to serve and to bless other people, and also temple work, church work is service, and service is worship. I think it helps us understand more fully.

John Bytheway: 47:40 It’s really helpful, because I think when people think of worshiping, they think of doing the… We’re not worthy or something, and just… But these are action words. I love that. How do I worship? I acknowledge God, I give reverence, but I go serve people. That’s really helpful. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 48:02 Maybe what I give my discretionary time to is my God, because that’s what I’m serving. Right? That’s a scary thought.

John Bytheway: 48:12 It is.

Hank Smith: 48:12 It’s a sobering thought.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 48:14 I think that’s a prophetic invitation, and every age is to keep coming back, to turn our hearts, to remember the Lord our God, and to worship him and to put him first, and so it’s a blessing.

Hank Smith: 48:26 Give him your time.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 48:27 Exactly.

Hank Smith: 48:27 Yeah. Give him your time.

Dr. Jennifer C….: 48:29 The things we put first, why we pay tithing first, why we have the Sabbath, all the things that we can do to orient our lives to put the Lord first, help us stay and live in a condition and a state of worship, and that’s a great blessing.

John Bytheway: 48:47 Please join us for Part II of this podcast.