John Bytheway: 00:02 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast. I’m excited to get into this vision of Enoch, because I think it’s so fascinating, especially the idea of God weeping.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 00:15 Enoch’s done it. He’s built Zion. The one heart, one mind. This is a great success story in verse 20. And he came to pass that Enoch, talked with the Lord. And he said unto the Lord: Surely Zion should dwell in safety forever.” Like, “We’ve done it. We’ve made it.” But the Lord said it to Enoch: Zion have I blessed, but the residue of the people have I cursed.” This notion that the Enoch has this confidence statement, “We’ve done it. We’ve made  it.” And the Lord says, “We’re not done yet. There’s more to happen.” It’s actually, a lot of what we’re going to see in the vision of Enoch is Enoch trying to figure out when we are  finally done.

Hank Smith: 00:54 Can you translate that for me? The end, “Zion have I blessed, but the residue of the people have I cursed.” Meaning, I don’t think the Lord’s saying, “I’m cursing them,” it’s, “Yes, you chose Zion, but there’s still a lot of people who haven’t.” Is that right?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 01:07 That’s exactly what he’s saying. And we’ll see that later on… Again, this notion of agency, verse 33, he says, ” They want them to choose me,” but they chose not. Zion’s taken up to the bosom of the Father and the Son of man; and behold, the power of Satan was on all the face of the earth.”

Hank Smith: 01:24 That’s verse 24.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 01:25 That’s 24… 26. “And he beheld Satan; and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness; and he,” that is Satan, “Looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced.” This is a really, really bleak picture that this vision is painting for Enoch, but then 28, and this is so key. “And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 01:56 And of course this notion of the God weeping. “And Enoch bore record of it saying: How is it the heavens weep, and shed for their tears as rain upon the mountains?” As we think about God weeping, one thing that’s very intriguing about this is it’s framed in Moses 7 as rain. God weeping, Enoch is seeing it as rain. It’s worth noting perhaps that as Genesis, and therefore probably Moses frames it. It doesn’t rain until the flood. Remember in the Creation story, it says a mist came up and watered the earth because the Lord had not yet caused it to rain upon the earth. So it’s not just God weeping that’s distinctive to Enoch here, but it’s also the notion of rain itself that is distinctive. Really interesting things with this notion of rain, and things like that. But noting that God weeps and Enoch sees it as rain. How is the heavens weep? Why is the sky crying?

Hank Smith: 02:54 Am I going to connect this to the flood? The sadness of God, the weeping of God becomes the flood of Noah?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 03:01 Yes. As Moses 7 frames it, the flood happens because God is crying over his children. Yes.

Hank Smith: 03:07 Interesting.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 03:09 It’s beautiful.

John Bytheway: 03:10 Yes. I just think that is poetry, shed forth their tears as rain upon the mountains. I want to ask you, because I don’t know how else you would interpret the idea of a chain except for slavery, bondage, or something. If he holds a chain in his hand and he’s got it wrapped around the world, it sounds like symbol there of he’s got control, slavery, bondage, whatever. But I love that in the imagery that it sounds like Satan is looking up, it says, “He looked up.” So he was below it, but God, if the rain is falling, I’m thinking God is above and looking down, and the rain is falling on the mountains. And it’s a frightening imagery, but I like the idea of him looking up and God looking down. Also, when I’ve taught this, I talk about Satan laughing, I can’t find the Savior laughing. I can find him in 3 Nephi smiling, “His countenance smiled upon them,”  but it’s Satan that seems to laugh and it’s probably a sound that Enoch probably never forgot.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 04:23 Doctrine and Covenants 88, “Without much laughter for this is sin.” There’s this notion that there’s a kind of laughter… I mean obviously joy and whatever, there’s a kind of laughter that the Lord disapproves of.

John Bytheway: 04:37 And then in 3 Nephi, what is it, 9? “The devil laughed and his angels rejoice.” We have references to Satan laughing, but it’s a I-got-you kind of a laugh. It’s a I’ve-got-you-in-chains type of a laugh

Hank Smith: 04:51 Laughing at those who are addicted, laughing at those who are in bondage to sin.

John Bytheway: 04:57 But, I love that… I mean, we’re reading it, well, I see why God’s weeping, but Enoch just, I don’t…. What?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 05:04 Yes, I know. Exactly. And Terryl Givens and Fiona Givens of course they written the book [The God Who Weeps: How Mormondom Makes Sense of Life]

John Bytheway: 05:08 Yes, they wrote that book.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 05:09 It’s great, the book on the weeping God. And they point out this notion that Enoch’s question is not, “Why are you crying?” But, “How, how can you cry?” Enoch said the Lord, “How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?” This is very reminiscent of what we saw in Moses 1. And, “Were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, count up all the atoms of this earth and lots like it, it would not even be a beginning of your creation. And curtains are stretched out here. We’re here. You’re picking Zion up. Everything’s great. “There’s naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne.” This is verse 31. “And mercy shall go before thy face and have no end.” How, how can you cry?” And this is very, very important. One, because it tells us a little bit of something about the nature of God.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 06:06 But also, it tells us a little something about ourselves and about what it means for us to be like God. Because sometimes we get this notion almost that, being more like God means suppressing our emotions. It means that the people most like God don’t… You don’t get sad. It’s almost this Latter-day Saints notion of we have to be happy all the time.

Hank Smith: 06:33 And smile.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 06:34 And smile. And the gospel just Christ brings this joy. There’s no question about that, but what this shows us here… And there are other places where worshippers do this. This shows us that as Latter-day Saints, we do not believe in a God who does not feel emotions. I mean, our scripture is very clear. The Lord gets mad. And so part of this is recognizing that as we learn to be more like God, it’s not about learning to suppress our emotions.

John Bytheway: 07:02 I think it’s helpful when we’re teaching the story of Lazarus and John that Jesus wept, and it’s always a fun question. Well, he knew. He was about to raise him from the dead. But in Mosiah, what does it mean to become a Saint? We mourn with those that mourn. And I like that idea, perhaps Jesus was mourning with those that mourn, he felt what they were feeling. And even though he knew he was about to raise Lazarus. And it goes with “Should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer.” He’s he’s got the the people divided into… This is an odd dichotomy, but it’s like Zion and the residue, yes. Zion and the rest of all y’all. Zion and residue, but he’s so concerned about the residue, it’s cool.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 07:53 Yes, exactly.

Hank Smith: 07:55 That is interesting, John, because Enoch’s like, “We did it, we built Zion.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 07:58 And God’s like, “That’s not the whole story.”

Hank Smith: 08:01 “I care about everyone, actually, Enoch”

John Bytheway: 08:02 Let’s talk about the residue of the people and weep about them.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 08:07 Yes., that that’s great stuff.

Hank Smith: 08:09 “All the people that aren’t in your city, have you thought about them?” “Oh, are there others?”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 08:14 Enoch is very focused on his people, things succeed, and the Lord says, “Let me broaden your vision here.”

John Bytheway: 08:19 Yes. And I, most days, feel more like residue than Zion anyway.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 08:24 Surely.

Hank Smith: 08:26 So what do I do with this weeping God here and his explanation in verse 32?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 08:35 And it’s important. He says, “Look, behold these thy brethren.” And by the way, Joshua Sears, you also had on your show, wrote a very, very good article, Covenant of Compassion for Old Testament,  the Sperry Symposium. He’s got one on “Behold These Thy Brethren,” about Enoch and Enoch’s response to God, and how that can help us. Okay. So, he says, “Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency.” And by the way, Joseph changes that later in when he revises instead of making the publication, but when he revises JST, he changes it to, “And man had agency in the garden of Eden.” Rather than “I gave them agency in the garden of Eden.” Which is again.

Hank Smith: 09:17 Oh, interesting.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 09:19 I suspect that Joseph’s ongoing knowledge about our eternal nature with that, but that’s, I think, one of the most significant changes that Joseph makes to OT 2 that didn’t make it into our Book of Moses.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 09:32 Okay. But then he goes here, “And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood; And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.” With really good reason, we struggle sometimes with the anger of God. But sometimes, Latter-day Saints saying, we get so much on Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as separate beings, so we can turn Heavenly Father into the mean God and Jesus is a nice God. And the Book of Mormon does some of that work. It doesn’t quite get there, but of course it’s not like Heavenly Father is the just God and Jesus Christ is the merciful God.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 10:19 Jesus Christ’s merciful, definitely Father is and everything. Father is, everybody is just as Jesus is. I mean, they’re one the same. But with this, I had maybe a story that helps this, as I think about, again, we have both God’s sadness, but also God’s wrath in the same section here. God not suppressing his emotions. I had a friend of mine who was teaching for us. And he was teaching Jesus Christ cleansing the temple and had a student raise his hand and say, “This doesn’t seem very Christ-like to me.” Jacob says, “Well, Jesus was doing it, so by definition, this is Christ-like behavior.” And then he said, and I think this is so powerful, he said, “But what I think I hear you say is, ‘I’m not sure that I could be Christlike and do that.'”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 11:19 We think about emotions, we think about anger, we think about even sadness. There is no shame, there is no sorry in having emotions. Being angry is not wrong, it cannot be wrong, God’s angry. The question is, what do you do with it? What do you do with your emotions? God is angry with his people, but again, I think it’s key. He’s angry with them because they’re hurting each other. And he says, “Then I’ll send out my floods against them.” We talk about the flood and we talk about why was the flood sent? We say, “Oh, it was wickedness.” The scriptures are very, very specific about what that wickedness is.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 12:01 If you go to, this is outside of our block for today, but if you go to Moses, Chapter 8, verse 28, just turn the page, a couple pages there, “And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” The reason according to the scripture is that the Lord sends the flood is violence. He says, “Look, I said, they should love each other. They should choose me, but they hate each other. They hate people they should love. They hate their own blood. And I can’t take it anymore.” The thing the Lord hate more than anything else is his children hurting each other

John Bytheway: 12:41 In verse 33, next to it, I wrote the two great commandments and I wasn’t keeping track exactly, but I felt like in our October 2021 General Conference, we heard that those two, “Love God” and “Love your neighbor,” half a dozen times maybe from different speakers preparing their talks independently. But I think they’re both in there, “Love one another and choose me, their Father.” Both of the two great commandments being violated there.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 13:14 If you were to boil the gospel of Jesus Christ down, that’s what I boil it down to, love God and love your neighbor. And, of course, when Jesus says that in the scriptures, he’s quoting the Law of Moses. “Love God” comes out of Deuteronomy and “Love your neighbor” comes out of Leviticus.

John Bytheway: 13:30 So what is the great commandment in the law they mean in the Torah.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 13:34 Yes. And so, it’s worth noting, this is not something that Jesus invented. This has been the Lord’s standard forever. The Lord’s compassion doesn’t mean he’s not going to send the flood, but that’s what making him cry. 37, “But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?.” There are a couple things I think that are powerful about this. One, I mean, you probably know this instinctively. The people who are closest to you are the people who can hurt you the most. Some stranger says some random comment on the internet, you’re like water off my back. But your brother, your sister, your wife, your children, your friends, that’s really what hurts.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 14:36 One of the things I think Moses 7 teaches so strongly is that God loves his children enough to be vulnerable. He loves his children enough that he lets himself cry. And for me, oh, just the thought that I’m loved enough, that when I hurt again, you look at this, and you see again, I like your point there earlier, John. You see all these people doing bad things and Satan looks up and says, “This is the best thing ever.” He loves it. He laughs. And you see the Lord look down and you see they hurting each other and it makes him cry. And then it makes him cry even the more that he has to cause more because he’s got to stop this. He cannot, again, I said this word, but I’ll say it again, the one thing God hates more than anything else is his children hurting each other. I think what Jesus says about what happens, his opinion about people who abuse children.

John Bytheway: 15:41 Yes. Better than a millstone be… Yes.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 15:45 He says tie a giant rock around their neck and throw them in the ocean. And again, this is the nice God guy. I loved your point out, mourning with those that mourn, earlier. One of the things I love about Moses 7 is this recognition that when you cry, you’ve never cried alone. It’s a lone and dreary world out there. It’s a terrible place. There’s a lot to cry about. But I love remembering, again, the God who weeps recognizes that… Again, you’ve never cried alone and there’s real power in that.

John Bytheway: 16:21 I think… You’ve got my mind racing. I love how the story of Job starts when the friends come and just sit with them. As soon as they open their mouths, everything goes south. But when they just come and mourn with him that is mourning, what a comfort it must have been to Job, “My friends are here.” Coming to mind is Hebrews 4:15, that’s speaking about Jesus but it says, “We have not an high priest, which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities.” He’s not a God that is watching from a distance. Wow, look at that. But he feels it with us. He’s mourning with us when we mourn and seeing the wickedness, it touches him and he weeps.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 17:08 Basically the answer to the question is Enoch’s, “How can you cry?” And God says, “How can I not?” This directly ties to the flood, verse 40, “Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.”

John Bytheway: 17:24 I never… Oh, gosh, never connected this to the flood. This is so good.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 17:31 Moses 7 understands the flood is God weeping and it’s beautiful. “And it came to pass that the Lord…” This is Joshua’s point in the article I suggested. “And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.” Enoch looks and he says, part of the whole thing about this vision is the Lord says, “Let me show you the way I see things, just for a moment.” He’s already built Zion, but Enoch has this problem where he’s saying, “But everything’s great.” And the Lord says, “Yes, everything’s great. But everything’s not great.” And I think that’s a key thing. Again, it’s a direct connection.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 18:19 “Enoch also saw Noah.” And all the stewardship of Noah. This is verse 42. “Enoch also saw Noah, and his family; that the posterity of all the sons of Noah should be saved with a temporal salvation.” And, “Wherefore Enoch saw that Noah built an ark; and that the Lord smiled upon it.” Again, you got that nice connection there between the floods and the weeping, but the Lord’s smiling. And of course, I mean, there may be rainbow connections there. There’s this fun stuff with that. But Enoch’s not convinced. Verse 44, “Enoch saw this, he had bitterness of soul, and wept … and said …I will refuse to be comforted.” Now, this is really intriguing here because the first thing he says to the good Lord, he says, “Okay, whatever. How can you cry?” And God says, “How can I not cry?” Enoch says, “You’re right. I cannot be comforted ever.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 19:09 But the Lord said to Enoch, “Lift up your heart and look.” And so, it’s really intriguing here because the Lord says, “We’re going to cry and it’s worth crying about. There’s no shame in your tears, Enoch. There’s no shame in my tears. It’s worth crying, but that’s not the end of the story here.” “And it came to pass that Enoch looked; and from Noah, all the families.” he said, “Okay, when’s this going to be over? When can we have all of this?” Now, we’ll come back to this, but I want to… One of his questions because he asked his questions again and again, “When is this going to be… When are the righteous to come? Will they have compassion? When are we going to rest?”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 19:50 And that’s the key thing I want to talk about this. In verse 58. We’ll come back. We’re going to go ahead for a second. We’ll come back. “And again, Enoch wept and cried into the Lord, saying: When shall the earth rest?” Okay. What I want to do here for a second is just play a little logical game here. Okay. Noah and Hebrew was Noah, and Noah means rest. Later on Moses 8 and Genesis is going to understand it in terms of compassion, and things like that. But the word that Noah, Nuah, Nuah means rest. And so, when eating starts asked this question about when will the earth rest, it’s a play on Noah even. And this idea that Noah’s sent there for rest, but it’s not there yet.

John Bytheway: 20:41 Okay. This is one of those that I just heard and, oh, I thought, “I have Got to ask Avram this when he comes on.” Because I don’t think it’s scriptural, I think it’s a Jewish legend or something, which you might know about. But I have heard that when the waters of the Red Sea swallowed up the Egyptians that the Hebrews on the other side started to sing and the Lord said, “How can you sing when so many of my children are drowning in the sea?” And they shortened their hallels, their praise to half hallels. Does that ring any bells?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 21:24 Yes. There are traditions about that and some of the Rabbinic traditions. Yes. I don’t have a source off the top of my head. I can find it.

John Bytheway: 21:33 Okay. I’ve loved the story because I want it to be true. Just tell me it’s true. I want it to be true.

Hank Smith: 21:41 -If it’s  true.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 21:42 It’s surely Rabbinic whether it’s true or not. I am all in favor, more people reading Rabbis..

John Bytheway: 21:50 I love the idea that it was like this. It’s seeing “These shall suffer,” the end of verse 37, that he had to swallow the Egyptians. He didn’t enjoy it. And you shouldn’t either. You shouldn’t be singing over there because I just had to wipe out these Egyptians. And the first place I heard that was in a talk from Elder Marion D. Hanks and I think he just mentions it as a legend or a tradition. “How can you celebrate when my children are drowning in the sea?” So they shorten their songs of praise in half, to half hallels or something like that.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 22:26 Now it’s really intriguing in terms of how the Lord wants us to interact even when things are bad.

John Bytheway: 22:36 I’m intrigued that we start with this vision with God weeping and now we’ve got Enoch just weeping as he comes to know the mind of God more and starts to see the same. I mean, all of this coming after, “Yes. We got Zion. Zion will dwell safely forever.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 22:54 Yes.

Hank Smith: 22:54 We’re good. Aren’t you happy, God? Aren’t you happy?

John Bytheway: 22:59 And the Lord shows him all this and now he’s like, “I refuse to be comforted.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 23:04 But again, the beauty of it is that… And again, I love that Enoch’s persuaded, but I also love the way the Lord continues to comfort him. He continues to say, “There’s a way out. It’s okay.” What’s going to happen? 46, “It shall be in the meridian of times.”

Hank Smith: 23:24 This plays like a really good movie. You’ve got happiness and it turns really dark, and then what’s going to happen at the end? What .. what’s going to be the conclusion?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 23:34 And he says, “Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man.” He rejoices But again, and of course, this is the Christian term, the Christian term. “The Righteous is lifted up, and the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world.” Again, only Christians are excited when somebody dies. As long as it’s Jesus, we’re like, “He’s dead now, guys.”

Hank Smith: 23:59 Well, I mean, Avram, I see beauty here in Enoch. “I refuse to be comforted.” The Lord saying, “Weep not. I have your answer.” And who does he see? He sees the Savior. “Yes. I have your answer.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 24:13 Yes. And again, this terms of types in Christ, of course, this makes Jesus into the great Noah. He’s the one who actually say… “I saw…” They are saved with a temporal salvation in 42. But of course, Jesus says that both temporal salvation, and eternal salvation, and Enoch, he’s going to go with this. See’s the earth crying, in 49, Enoch says, “Can you have compassion on the earth, please help it.” But then Enoch knows how this works, 50, “I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.” He’s got this general, “Please have mercy.” And he’s like, “I ask you in the name of Jesus, no more floods.” In 51, the Lord says, “Yes, that’s the covenant we’ll make.”

John Bytheway: 25:07 Do you know what I love about verse 47, if I can go back?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 25:10 Yes, please do.

John Bytheway: 25:11 It’s a strange, linear time thing. “The Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world.” I mean, the Lamb was slain in the meridian of time, but he’s talking about, the lamb is slain, sounding like in the pre-earth life, the Premortal Existence, and just that idea. That was always the plan, that the Son of God would come and die. And from the foundation of the world, and I’m thinking of our friend, Brad Wilcox, who said the Atonement was Plan A, it wasn’t Plan B, because Adam and Eve made a mess of things. It was from the foundation of the world that this was going to happen this way. So what do you do with that interesting phrase, “The Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world,” am I looking at that right?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 25:56 Yes, that’s what it says. Because you find the similar language in Revelation right, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain.” And there’s, “Before the foundation of the world,” even, it says there. And part of it I think is, one, it’s a good way for us to rejigger our notion of what it means to be the Lamb of God. We talk about the Lamb of God somehow like Jesus the Lamb of God because he’s fuzzy and cuddly, like lambs are soft and sweet and innocent.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 26:23 That’s not the imagery that’s being used here. The picture here is a lamb with its throat cut. We’re the lamb that was slain. And so, this idea of the Lamb of God, it’s sacrificial image, whether this is what Enoch’s seeing or not in Moses 7, as John sees in Revelation, he sees the dead lamb, that’s the Lamb he sees there, and this is Jesus. And I think that it feeds into this is one of the great, distinctive things about being a Christian, is our belief that fundamentally our origin’s bound around the fact that our God was willing to die for us. And as you point out there, this is the way it’s always been, this is the plan, this is the way, this is the goal.

Hank Smith: 27:08 There’s an interesting parallel there, you’re bringing up Revelation, Chapter 5, where John is weeping, right? He’s weeping because there’s nobody who can save the earth. There’s nobody. And then, one of the Elders says, “Weep not.” Just like the Lord said to Enoch, “Weep not. Look, here’s the answer.” The Lamb is the answer.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 27:28 There’s an answer to this. 52 was intriguing because 52 was one of those places that suggests that the flood could have been understood as a local flood rather than a worldwide flood, 52. “And he sent forth an unalterable decree, that a remnant of his seed should always be found among all nations, while the earth should stand.” If Noah is the progenitor of the entire earth, then a promise that a remnant seed is found around the earth is not a meaningful promise, because all of the earth is a remnant of his seed. There is evidence in scripture, the same thing. It says in Genesis, the whole earth will be flooded. But of course the Hebrew there is going to be ‘erets, and ’erets means “land”. And so, you could translate that the whole land will be flooded. I’m not saying that the flood was not worldwide. That’s above my pay grade to make that claim. But there are places in scripture, including here in Restoration Scripture, that are suggestive that it may not have been.

John Bytheway: 28:32 Well, it’s like the Book of Mormon, says, “The face of the whole earth was changed.” Well, I don’t know how they knew that from their… Well, from what we can see on top of this here, pyramid, I mean, I don’t know what if they really mean earth.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 28:49 53, “And the Lord said: Blessed is he through whose seed Messiah shall come; for he saith—I am Messiah, the King of Zion,” and that’s distinctive, but that’s really actually fun, anciently also, because most places in the Old Testament, Zion means Jerusalem, which of course is where the ancient Messiah would be king in, his capital would be at Jerusalem. And so, this has nice broad references for us in Moses 7, but it also could just as easily be talking about any Messiah would be the King of Zion. And so, there’s fun that’s with that. “Whoso cometh in at the gate and climbeth up by me shall never fall; wherefore, blessed are they of whom I have spoken, for they shall come forth with songs of everlasting joy.” And you got, again, this emotional rollercoaster almost here in this vision in Moses 7, but then Enoch adds that question, “When the Son of Man cometh in the flesh?”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 29:42 Let’s pin this down, when’s this going to be? And then, this Noah’s imagery, “When will the earth rest? Please show me.” And what he sees is the crucifixion. “Look, and he looked and beheld,” this 55, “The Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men.”

Hank Smith: 29:58 That’s when the earth gets to rest.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 29:59 Except that, and this is where it gets even fun, 56, “And he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were veiled; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent.” Which is why in 58, Enoch is like, “This is rest?” He sees earthquakes …the earthquake of the crucifixions, he’s like, “This is rest? When will the earth rest?” 59, “And Enoch beheld the Son of Man ascend up unto the Father; and he called unto the Lord, saying: Wilt thou not come again … ?”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 30:31 He sees the Lord before the foundation of the world. This has always been the plan. But he sees the earth mourn and says, “What’s going on here? Show me when the Lord comes.” And they see the Lord comes and the Lord is crucified and there’s earthquakes. And he says, “When’s the earth going to rest? When are you coming back? Will you please come again?” And this is a key thing, by the way, as we talk about covenants in the Old Testament, Moses 7 understands the covenant that God makes with Noah, with Abraham at Mount Sinai, and therefore the Gospel covenant as being in continuity with the covenant he makes here with Enoch. It’s part of this promise he makes to Enoch. “Wilt thou not come again? Forasmuch as thou art God, and I know thee, and thou hast sworn unto me, and commanded me that I should ask in the name of thine Only Begotten; thou hast made me, and given unto me a right to thy throne, and not of myself.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 31:31 He says, “Look, there’s…”

Hank Smith: 31:33 “I didn’t do this, you did.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 31:34 “I didn’t do this. but through thine own grace; wherefore, I ask thee if thou wilt not come again on the earth.” And the Lord says, “Yes.” Part of why this chapter is so important for the Restoration is this notion of the cause of Zion. But the other reason is because this is fundamentally, the purpose of building Zion is to prepare the earth for the coming Jesus Christ. You’ve got there in 62, Righteous will come down. Truth. I was sent forth out of the earth. “Righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 32:31 And there are two things I love about this. One, of course, this is, this is the Restoration here. But two, I love this because Hank already pointed us to previously, this idea that Joseph Smith says, the cause of Zion is the grand object, the thing that everybody’s looking forward to. And President Nelson has said, “The most important thing you can be doing right now is the Gathering of Israel.” What 62 reminds us is these are the same thing.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 32:58 Fundamentally, the work to gather Israel and the work of building Zion are the same thing. And this idea of coming together and being a holy people and building a holy city. I love the way that the Lord frames this. And then for us, as we follow the current prophetic council to gather Israel, we’re also building Zion. It’s all the same thing. It’s all God’s work. This is what the Church of Jesus Christ is for. But then, it’s so beautiful. We talked to the new Jerusalem and the old Zion. “And the Lord said unto Enoch: Then shalt thou and all thy city shall meet them there, and we shall receive them into our bosom, and they shall see us; and we will fall upon their necks, and they shall fall upon our necks, and we will kiss each other.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 33:46 I just love the fact that as we talk about Enoch, we talk about the Restoration, it’s easier for us sometimes to, I don’t know, get caught up in our dispensational whatever, but I love that Moses 7 says, “One, it’s all the same work and, two, we’re going to know and recognize each other. And it’s going to be great.” I love it.

Hank Smith: 34:08 Yes. It’s a beautiful, I mean, this is a beautiful chapter of, “Are you going to come again?” “Yes, I will. I’m going to send a Restoration, a building of Zion. And then I will be there.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 34:23 With revelation again, which of course is also about Christ’s final victory, where the Lord and Revelation says, “And I’m going to wipe away all tears.” 64 verse, “There shall be mine abode, and it shall be Zion, which shall come forth out of all the creations which I have made; and for the space of a thousand years the earth shall rest.” There’s your promise, Enoch, there’s your rest. “And it came to pass that Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man, in the last days, to dwell on the earth in righteousness.” I love it because of course it frames this whole plan of salvation here. He begins back to 6, 6 is all about Adam, and the Fall, and Redemption. And then this is all about Jesus Christ and salvation. It’s just beautiful stuff.

Hank Smith: 35:05 Yes. It’s interesting. It starts with a city that Enoch built and the vision ends with the city that we built.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 35:14 That we built and these two things are going to come together. It’s no mistake, we call ours Zion also. They’re the same city.

John Bytheway: 35:21 So caught up in the, and then I’m thinking there’s certain phrases here that I’m just, “Oh, Joseph Smith made that up.” “His heart swelled wide as eternity; his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.” Wow.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 35:37 Your bowels yearn, this reflects ancient notions of feelings. It’s your kidneys. “Where we think with our head and few with our hearts, the ancient rights thought with their hearts and they felt with their kidneys.” The kidneys were the seat of emotion in ancient Israel. So, again, in 3 Nephi, Jesus says the same thing, “My bowels are pained within me.” Or Jeremiah, he’s talking about your feelings in your kidneys. Which he says, “And the thoughts of their hearts were far from me. It’s because you think with your heart.” We didn’t know if you thought with your brain, there’s a reason ancient Egyptians threw it away.

Hank Smith: 36:10 Yes. What’s that thing for?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 36:12 The Greek medical texts talk about cooling the blood. Maybe it cooled the blood. We actually weren’t sure what the brain was for. And you see bowels yearning or bowels feeling or whatever that reflects antique notions of emotion and thought that reflects ancient Israel.

Hank Smith: 36:27 Hey, Avram, do you think Moses 7, verse 62, “This is how I’m going to bring the earth to rest. Righteousness I’ll send down out of heaven.” You could say Revelation coming from heaven. “Truth out of the earth to bear testimony more than begotten,” to me, a reference to the Book of Mormon.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 36:45 Almost ever in Restoration scripture. I mean, obviously they’re riffing on Isaiah who probably has something else in mind here. But as we read this in the Restoration is Joseph’s Restoration, as the Lord gives revelation to Joseph in the Restoration, that’s what he means. “Truth out of the earth. Righteous out of heaven” is Moroni. “Truth out of the earth” is the Book of Mormon. Almost always, this is framed in the same way that almost always in Doctrine and Covenants, the marvelous we’re going to wonder he is talking about is the Book of Mormon. So, yes, that’s absolutely a way to read that. Because again, this is how we understand. And especially in verse 62, which is all about the work of the Restored Church of Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 37:28 This chapter, Moses 7, reminds me a little bit of Jacob 5 in that we come to a moment of, “Oh, no. It’s all awful. What are we going to do?” And then this moment of redemption right at the very end. Book of Revelations’s the same way. Look how terrible, terrible, terrible… Redemption. And then you have Moses 7, following that same track.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 37:49 This kind of literature, this kind of scripture. I mean, because there’s lots of reasons for prophecy. There’s lots of reasons in Scripture for prophecy, but this particular prophecy like revelation, like this end times, end of the world type stuff is fundamentally designed to give believers hope. That’s the fundamental purpose behind it. And we tend to turn to these kinds of things when things are bad.

Hank Smith: 38:19 Because it even puts the bad times in the prophecy. Satan had a great chain in his hand.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 38:24 Oh, right now, right here, I see this. When things are pretty good, there are other Scriptures that we focus on. But when things are bad, we say, “Let’s talk about Jesus Christ coming back at the end of the world.” In the Church in the 19th century, very much about Zion coming. In the 20th century, when things were pretty good for the Church, we spent less time talking about those things. But I think as things have turned bad for us again a little bit, I think, we’re seeing more of this in our discourse and more of this in our teachings.

Hank Smith: 38:53 What a great insight.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 38:55 The only thing is that, of course, at the end there… This answers the question, what does it mean that Enoch was naught and God took him, well, it means translation. Even take him into heaven. Moses 7 answers that question of what happened. Well, he went up to live with God forever, and then he’ll come down again when God comes again. Moses 7, solves the knob and explains what’s going on with it.

Hank Smith: 39:16 Joseph Smith took a small space between four verses and stretched.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 39:21 And stretched it out.

John Bytheway: 39:22 As wide as eternity.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 39:24 This is one of the places where, as I read JST and Genesis, in some places, I’m like, “Okay, Joseph, I see what you’re doing there, but I see what Genesis is doing there.” And I’m with both of them. One of the things I think is very key when we read JST to Genesis is read both of them, read Genesis and JST to Genesis. Don’t do just the one because both of them teach you something. One of the things I love about the Pearl of Great Price, and I especially love about Moses 7 here, you also saw Moses 1, God delights to teach us. Enoch has these questions. How can you weep? When will the earth rest? And the Lord doesn’t say, “I don’t…” Lord says, “Let me show you. Let me tell you. Let me teach you.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 40:09 Joseph Smith in the same way. He had this question. He said, “Where can I find salvation for my sins? Where can I find the church that will show me Jesus?” Continue to answer those questions. What about this whole Bible thing? What can I do with it? And continues to respond and reveal. It’s beautiful. Because we have all of this all together. I just love it about Moses 7. The part we just read there was so important because of building Zion. Gathering Israel, building Zion, this is the work of the Restoration. It may be that for the Saints or the followers of Jehovah, in ancient days, in the days of Genesis, they didn’t need to know that out of Enoch because it was not as useful to them.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 40:52 Obviously, they’re concerned with their own things, but for you and I today, this is what we’re here for. We’re here to build Zion. We’re here to prepare the earth for Jesus to come again, so we’ll rest again. And I’m so grateful for this, just the power that we have from Joseph Smith, laying it out at the beginning of the Restoration here and says, “This is your job.” And now our job is to go out and do it.

Hank Smith: 41:14 Wow. The little break between verses in Genesis reminds me of a Abinadi where they ask him a question, “Who is it that publishes peace?” And then five chapters later, he is like, “And that’s who publishes peace.” Like he takes a small thing and expands it. Joseph Smith took these little tiny verses in Genesis and through another a hundred verses between them. Joseph Smith’s a prophet.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 41:39 And part of why it’s so important with Abinadi there is that he’s making an argument. The whole thing is the super structure to his point about, “And this is why we’re publishing peace, guys.” Everything in 53, everything with all of that Ten Commandment, all of that, he’s answering their question.

Hank Smith: 41:52 This is really awesome. You talked about us as a people choosing this and part of Moses 7 is the Lord saying, “They will choose this, they will.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 42:01 It’ll come. Don’t worry.

Hank Smith: 42:03 The faith he has in Latter-day Saints, that they will do this. Watch them, Enoch.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 42:08 God trusts us. And that’s powerful.

Hank Smith: 42:12 But he believes we can build this place.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 42:14 Yes. He trusts us. And sometimes he trusts us more than perhaps I trust us. I’m a firm believer in  three-hour church. So I really struggled. I think we need more church, not less church, God, but it turns out that God trusts His Church more than I do.

Hank Smith: 42:31 Avram, Dr. Shannon, you’re so great. This has just been so much fun. I think our listeners would be interested in your story. A mother who’s Jewish who converts to becoming a Latter-day Saint, then you studied Judaism as a career, and here you are believing Latter-day Saint. Can you tell us just a little bit of that journey?

Dr. Avram Shannon: 42:54 Sure. First of all, I always knew I wanted to be an academic. I discovered what a PhD was when I was eight years old. And I said, “I want one of those.” I transferred here and I was looking for language classes and there was a modern Hebrew class, which was the only one there, because I was shot in the middle of semester and whatever. So I started with modern Hebrew. Again, I blame my mother who named me Avram. If she named me Fred, I’d end up in like Chinese studies or something else. But she named me Avram, so I do Jewish studies. But there’s always been a question, a long conversations with my wife. Did I really want to make my religion, my job, to not have that division. And honestly, it’s Moses 7 and consecration that said, “Well, yes.”

Dr. Avram Shannon: 43:47 And I think this is a key thing about academic study of scripture whatever, what consecration says is, is that everything can be made holy and everything needs to be made, made, made holy. Even without that, according to Moses, my job is to my religion, no matter what I do. If I went into physics, if I went into anything. To get this notion that as we understand, as we work through, as we try it, this idea that the world’s made up of facts. Facts are great. I love facts. I love learning things. I love Scripture. I love languages. It’s just, the more I learn, the more I realize how little there is I know. But of course the world is made of relationships. And facts or relationships are absolutely meaningless.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 44:42 And so, when I think about what I’ve learned, what I do, how I do it, how I got here. Again, from my first Hebrew classes at BYU, from my Hebrew classes and my Jewish studies classes at Oxford, from my work at Ohio State, are there things I learned that I said, “That’s a little weird. Yes. Yes, there are. The world’s a weird place.” Are there things I’ve studied where I say, “I don’t know what to do with that. Yes. Yes, there are.” Sometimes as Latter-day Saints, and I had to go through this, we have so many good answers to so many things. We really struggle when we have to say, “I don’t know.” And for me, the most powerful thing that learning what I’ve learned, getting a PhD, getting a master’s degree, studying all this stuff, is “Man, there’s lots I just don’t know.” But with this, for me, this is why the cause of Zion is so important.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 45:53 Because fundamentally, it’s not about what I know. Zion isn’t built by me knowing lots of the Hebrew verbs. I love Hebrew verbs. Zion is not done by knowledge of this Scripture, or that Scripture, or this, whatever. Zion is built by the Lord’s Saints working together. And fundamentally, the reason I do what I do is because I want to build Zion. And so, as I think about my journey and things I’ve learned and things I haven’t learned, one is just recognizing that there’s so much I don’t know. And sometimes I’ll stop to say, “I don’t know that.” But what I do know is that the Lord, one, he loves me. I’ve never wept alone. I had a lot of cause. This has been a terrible year. I had a lot of reason to cry this year, a lot of reason. And I did, but I found solace and recognition in the fact that I didn’t cry alone and that I’ve never cried alone.

Dr. Avram Shannon: 46:58 I mean, honestly, fundamentally, I’m part of the gospel of Jesus Christ, because I need Jesus Christ. I can’t do this by myself. And anything I’ve read, the cool stuff, the hard stuff, the great stuff always reminds me that in my own life, like with Enoch, when am I going to find rest? The only rest that really comes for me is through Jesus. There’s nothing else I’ve got. I just need Jesus.

Hank Smith: 47:27 So good. So, so good. We want to thank Dr. Avram Shannon for being with us today. Wow, Avram, that was just fantastic. And thank you to everyone who joined us listening. We love you, grateful for your support. We have Executive Producers we want to thank, Shannon and Steve Sorensen. We want to thank our sponsors today, David and Verla Sorensen. Come join us on our next episode of followHim.

John Bytheway: 47:57 Hey, we want to remind everybody that you can find us on social media. Come find us on Facebook and Instagram. We would love it if you would subscribe to, rate and review the podcast, share it with your friends, that would be awesome. Go to followhim.co, followhim.co for any show notes, transcripts, any references you want. If you’re feeling up to it, you can read the transcript in French, Portuguese, and Spanish. So all of that is available to you absolutely free. Go to followhim.co to find all of that.