Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:10 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together, we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:00:20 Welcome, my friends to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my graceful co-host John Bytheway. Welcome, John. Not only is it a new episode, it is a new season of followHim.

John Bytheway: 00:00:36 It is. And I’m here with Hank. I’m going to give Hank a middle name this year, Hank “Kilowatt” Smith because of his boundless energy.

Hank Smith: 00:00:47 Boundless energy.

John Bytheway: 00:00:49 Boundless energy. Sometimes in Springville, when they have power problems, they just hook jumper cables to Hank’s ears and he lights up most of the city, 1.21 kilowatts.

Hank Smith: 00:01:02 Yes. John, new year, new season, new book of scripture. This is exciting. So, we had to bring in the best of the best. Who’s with us today?

John Bytheway: 00:01:09 Like you said, new year, I think that, I think a lot of us would love a better understanding, appreciation, would love to grow a greater love for the Old Testament, so I’m so glad we’re doing this. And we’re starting with Dr. Kerry Muhlestein. We’re so excited to have him. I have such an extensive bio on Dr. Muhlestein, so I’m going to skip around, but I hope I don’t miss anything that you can put in. But as I was reading it, you know what I kept thinking, Hank? I kept hearing dat-tarata, dat-tara, datarata, whenever I saw the word Egypt. So, let’s see.

John Bytheway: 00:01:45 Kerry received his Bachelor’s from BYU in Psychology, with a Hebrew minor. As an undergraduate, he spent time at the BYU Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies in the intensive Hebrew program. Received an MA in ancient Near Eastern Studies from BYU and a PhD from UCLA in Egyptology. That’s where I hear the music, dat-tarata. He also taught early morning seminary at the Westwood Institute of Religion, which is thereby UCLA. He was selected by the Princeton Review in 2012 as one of the Best 300 Professors in the Nation. He and his wife, Julianne, are the parents of six children.

John Bytheway: 00:02:23 He’s also served on the Committee for the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities and currently serves on their Board of Trustees. He’s a senior fellow of the William F. Albright Institute for Archeological Research. He’s the Director of the BYU Egypt Excavation Project in association with his works on understanding the pyramid excavated there as well as the Graeco Roman Culture representative of the site and the advent of Christianity in Egypt. I’ve always just loved ancient Egypt and their art, especially and so, we’re really excited to have you to bring in kind of some Egyptian backdrop to all these things that we’re looking at today, so welcome. Thanks for joining us.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:03:05 Ah, thank you. Thank you. I almost fell asleep while you’re reading that boring stuff, but now I’m awake again. So, it’s good to be with you guys.

Hank Smith: 00:03:13 Kerry, I hear some people say that the Old Testament is their favorite book. I hear others say, “I just don’t know how to, I don’t get it. I don’t know where to start. I don’t understand how the Pearl of the Great Price fits in. Where does Moses and Abraham fit in with Genesis? I don’t get all this.” Can you kind of give us an Old Testament for Dummies kind of introduction and say how do we start this whole year, new year of study in the Old Testament?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:03:40 Yeah, I would love to. I am so excited about having an Old Testament year. I’ve been looking forward to this since we started Come, Follow Me. I do feel like with Come, Follow Me, people have really gotten into whatever book of scripture we’re studying. And so I’ve been waiting for this year where we can really help people, because I think you’re right. They’re like one and a half percent of us that say. “We love the Old Testament and 98.5% who’d say, “I’d like to love the Old Testament, but it’s just hard,” so.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:04:08 But I think there are some things that really can help you understand it better. There are a couple of keys that in fact, one day I want to write a book, 10 Keys to Understand the Old Testament, but we won’t do all 10 here or that would take too long. But let me give you just a couple of ideas. I mean, first of all, I think we have to be willing to admit that it’s a different culture. And sometimes, we struggle just because we want them to be like us and act like us.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:04:34 Now, in a lot of ways, they are like us. Their desires are the same. The things that they love, the things that they’re afraid of, those are the same kind of things. They’re humans just like us, right? But they dress differently. They have different ways of talking and then we had the King James version, which has a different way of talking. But probably one of the bigger things is that the Old Testament is more willing to record warts in all than probably any of our other books of scripture, right? They’re just, it’s a culture that’s just going to lay it all out there. They’re not going to hide stuff and I actually love that.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:05:14 But for some people they struggle partially because they kind of have come to expect that whatever they’re reading about characters in the Old Testament, it must be good and inspired. And the Old Testament is not giving you only the good stuff, they’re giving you everything. So, I met someone once who said, “Well, I was reading the Old Testament, but I had to stop when we got to the Book of Judges, because I was reading some stories about some terrible stuff.” And I thought, “Well, I just can’t believe that’s how we’re supposed to act.” And in fact, I think it was recorded as an example of a really bad way to, right?

Hank Smith: 00:05:42 You’re right.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:05:43 I’m telling you this is when we hit our low point. This is when we’re at our worst and they’re sharing it with us or for example, here, as we start, we’re going to get really quickly into the lives of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Joseph and their families, and you know what, they have messy family situations. They go through tough stuff. It’s really messy.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:06:05 And I appreciate that because most of us, however wonderful our families are, there’s some messiness in it, right? There are brothers who want to sell other brothers in most families. There are some things that are kind of tricky to work through and they’re not hiding it. They’re saying, “You know what? Jacob is one of the most righteous people that ever lived and he had some tough stuff in his family. And sometimes, he couldn’t figure out exactly how to do it right, and Isaac couldn’t either, and so on.” So, I think we just have to say, instead of expecting to see a perfect pristine situation, let’s say, “Ah, these guys had difficult lives and we do, too. And then I think we can actually relate better to them and get more out of it.

Hank Smith: 00:06:48 I’ve heard it said, Kerry, that I think it heartily says, “The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.” So, we need to maybe approach the past, the Old Testament, in the same way, we approach going to a foreign country. We probably watch and learn and be respectful, instead of judgmental.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:07:06 I think that’s a great approach and I love that quote. And so, that brings us back into this cultural thing. So, maybe I’ll just give you two other things that I think are key for understanding the Old Testament. And one of them is very much cultural. Culturally, they are much more symbol-oriented than we are. And so, they’re going to rely on symbols a lot and it will be their primary and most important way of communicating.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:07:35 So when I say that, we think, “Oh, symbol like a pyramid,” right? And of course I think that because I’m an Egyptologist, but you know, the different kinds of symbols and it is that. But I would say even more than that, the most important method of communicating for them, the thing, the way they communicated, the most important things, let’s say, is by symbolic action. Everything has to have a symbolic action. So, that’s why you’re going to read they rent or they tore their clothes, because if you’re feeling torn up inside, then there needs to be a symbolic expression of that. You tear your clothes.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:08:06 And we’re going to see God communicating with them in this way, right? I think that when it says that God will communicate to us in our language and according to our understanding that part of that is not just whether it’s English or Portuguese. It’s that if we expect for Him to communicate to us in dreams, if we expect Him to communicate with us in symbolic actions, that’s what he is going to do.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:08:28 So, just as an example, the Exodus, I think that that really happened. It’s a literal story. It really happened, but it happened in a way that is designed to teach us symbolically or the sacrifices that are given are designed to teach us symbolically. Or later when we get to stories like Miriam being stricken with leprosy are designed to teach us symbolically. But the other thing, actually, so I said, I was going to give you two more, but I’ve got to give you three more. Thanks.

Hank Smith: 00:08:56 Okay.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:08:56 The other thing to tie in with this symbolism-

Hank Smith: 00:08:58 A bonus.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:08:59 Yeah. Well it’s because they’re tied together. This symbolic action that God speaks with, we need to look for the whole story. Too often, we look for the first part and we miss the second part. So, I personally feel like the Old Testament teaches more about God’s mercy and His love than any other book of scripture, hands down easily more than any other book of scripture. But I know that’s not how most people see it, but it’s because they look at just one part.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:09:31 So for example, with that story with Miriam, she and Aaron come and they question Moses about his authority and that’s something, that’s challenging Moses’ position as the prophet. So, it’s not enough for Moses to say something about that in this culture. In this culture, there has to be a symbolic action that answers it, so the symbolic action is that Miriam is struck with leprosy. And if we stop there and we say, “Wow, that’s pretty harsh,” then that’s one thing.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:10:00 But if we keep reading, well, the next thing is Miriam is healed, but then she has to go through the ritual cleansing, that’s part of the law of Moses and that’s going to take a week before she can be cleansed and be part of or be in with everyone again, around the rest of Israel. Because of leprosy, you’re supposed to be away from people. So, God has Israel wait. They just wait when Miriam is cleansed and ready to go, now they can move again.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:10:24 And if you think of the symbolism of that, that you and I will all do things that aren’t what we should do, and yeah, God may have to punish us for that. He may have to humble us, that’s really what it is, is teaching and humbling. That’s what happened there, is teaching and humbling and that’s what God does. But God will cleanse us from that. He’ll wait for us as long as is necessary and then we can move along again and it’s no big deal. In the end, it was no big deal that Miriam did that. She just had to go through the learning process, God takes care of it, she’s cleansed, let’s move on. That happens for all of us spiritually.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:10:57 And if we’re willing to look at those symbols in the whole story, right? So another example, this is a much bigger scale, but the same thing, the destruction of the kingdom of Israel and the scattering of the Ten Tribes. That sounds like pretty harsh stuff, right? But again, it’s God trying to humble them and teach them. Let’s keep in mind, he’s still gathering them. This is a 2500-year cycle. If we want to learn about God’s patience, that’s patience. But it doesn’t matter how wicked they were, God is still going to work with them. He’s still going to bring them back to Him.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:11:29 That’s the great message of the Old Testament is it doesn’t matter how many times or in how badly you mess up, God is always there. He’ll humble you and teach you, but He is always there to accept you back, bring you back in and give you another chance. And if we’ll look for those messages in the Old Testament, like messages of the Prophets are filled with all sorts of warnings and wrath and stuff. But if you look, almost all of them end with this beautiful message of hope. “After all that stuff, I’m bringing you back,” right? So, we need to look for that.

John Bytheway: 00:11:58 Wow, this is great. Can I try to restate those three then? First was to notice that the Old Testament is more willing to record warts and all. It’s very honest and it can give us some hope knowing, “Hey, my family is not perfect either.” The second thing, I love this, it is a more symbol-oriented culture. And I’ve always known that there were symbols, but I love that you said symbolic action. I hadn’t thought of that before. There are actions that are symbolic, not just words that describe things symbolically.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:12:32 Yeah. That explains part of why it’s often, it seems like God is acting harshly, but this is something He has to do…

John Bytheway: 00:12:38 Yeah, because He’s a teacher.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:12:38 … because that’s the way they’re expecting to learn. And yeah, He is going to teach them, exactly right.

John Bytheway: 00:12:43 Wow. Okay. And then third was, make sure you see the whole story and you’ll see more about God’s love and mercy because you’re right. I’ve heard people say, “Well, in the Old Testament God is really harsh and mean, and He softens up in the New Testament.” But you’re saying not so, if you look for the whole story.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:13:00 Yeah, yeah. In fact that statement drives me more crazy than just about anything else because what it means is that they read some parts of the Old Testament, they didn’t read some parts of the New Testament, and they selectively choose what they were going to focus on, so yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:13:12 They didn’t read some parts of the New.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:13:13 Yeah. And they also didn’t do the next part of the story because the New Testament doesn’t record it, but the Jews go through the biggest destruction in their history at the end of the New Testament, which Christ said they were going to.

John Bytheway: 00:13:24 Yeah, 70 AD.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:13:25 Yeah. So, but it’s all the same thing then he brings them back, right? We just have to see that same story everywhere. I’ll throw in one more and we don’t need to spend a lot of time on this because you’ll end up spending a lot of time on this. But it’s to recognize the importance of initially what we’ll call the New and Everlasting Covenant, but eventually the Abrahamic Covenant, right?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:13:44 The Abrahamic Covenant is the core, central element, the thematic element of the entire Old Testament. And there are a lot of things that will make more sense when you recognize that God is keeping the covenant or humbling them, so that they will start to keep again. And that you’ll recognize a lot of imagery used, especially by the prophets has to do, you just have to know the covenant well enough to recognize, “Oh, they’re making a covenant reference because he’s talking about them becoming more numerous or about protecting them. Oh, so Isaiah often isn’t being literal. He’s using a symbol that says, ‘Now, we’re keeping the covenant or now, we’re not keeping the covenant.'”

John Bytheway: 00:14:24 When I try to teach Isaiah, I feel like, how can you even understand the Book of Mormon without understanding the Abrahamic Covenant and how critical that is? And you have an Isaiah commentary out pretty soon, is that right? Which I can’t wait to get.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:14:40 It’s just barely coming out now. And it’s a verse-by-verse commentary, so it’s got a guide to section that kind of gives you some of these principles, but then the verse-by-verse commentary and I was shocked. Actually really, really, even though I was expecting to see it, I’d already written about the Abrahamic Covenant, but I was shocked at how often I was writing, “Well, this is Isaiah talking about the Abrahamic Covenant. This is Isaiah.” And I suddenly realized you’re never going to get Isaiah or most of what the prophets are writing if you don’t know the Abrahamic Covenant fairly well. So, that’s another great key for understanding all the prophets, especially Isaiah, but any of the prophets, if you will just become at least passingly familiar with the Abrahamic Covenant, which should happen with Come, Follow Me this year.

John Bytheway: 00:15:23 I’ve heard Dr. Robert L. Millet about, I think, his words were, “There’s a lack of covenant consciousness. We don’t get the Abrahamic Covenant.” And so, I love to hear you talking about that and because that helps make sense of so many things in the Book of Mormon as well. What’s the title of your book going to be?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:15:44 It’s Learning To Love Isaiah: A Guide and Commentary. Yeah, and I think if anyone has been trying to overcome our lack of covenant consciousness, it’s President Nelson, right? If there’s someone who gets and talks about the covenant, it’s him. And you almost feel like, you get this sense that that’s one of his underlying missions as a prophet is to help us understand how the covenant affects all of the other stuff we’re doing.

Hank Smith: 00:16:09 He’s talked about the greatest work when he was set apart, in what, June of 2018, “The greatest work we can be involved in is gathering of Israel.” It’s all part of the covenant. So yeah, good point.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:16:24 He’s passionate about it. And so is the Lord and you’ll see it. If you recognize it, you’ll see it in the scriptures.

Hank Smith: 00:16:30 Yeah, I’ve always thought, Kerry, that those of us who teach the gathering of Israel, we probably ought to make sure we teach the scattering, right? And the Old Testament’s going to help us understand the scattering of Israel because if we don’t understand it, then we’re kind of, “What are we gathering again? Why are we doing this?”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:16:47 Yes. Well and what was the purpose?

Hank Smith: 00:16:50 You’re right.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:16:50 So, that’s actually another little key that’s worth bringing up briefly. I think as we, you remember way back last year when we were doing the Doctrine and Covenants. We’ve really stressed understanding some of the historical context, we’ve got these big chapter headings or section headings, I guess that tell us the historical context and the Church provided all sorts of resources for that. And it really did help us understand the Revelations better, right? Well, that’s fairly recent history.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:17:15 We need that all the more to understand what’s going on in the Old Testament. And it has some historical books in it, but it’s not history the way we think of history, by the way, they’re teaching theology history is that it is like 4/5ths, 10ths priority for them. They’re trying to teach us religious principles of the authors of the Old Testament, but still, if we will learn a little bit of the history, it really, really helps us understand things. So, learning that history of the scattering of Israel, it will help you understand the Old Testament, the Book of Mormon, the New Testament. I mean, it helps you understand everything, right?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:17:51 So, hopefully during this year, we also will take the time to learn just a little bit of some of the historical things going on here. Yeah. And until you get that second part of the story that we were talking about, about seeing God’s love, you get that in the history of it.

Hank Smith: 00:18:05 Right. And I’ve also noticed, Kerry, in teaching, in my New Testament classes, the better you understand the Old Testament, the better you’re going to understand the New Testament. It’s like watching the sequel without watching the original.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:18:19 That’s exactly right, yeah. That’s exactly right. I can’t tell you how many times in my Book of Mormon courses or my New Testament courses where someone asks a question, I’d say, “Okay, you’re probably sick of me saying this by now, but if you take a class on the Old Testament, then you’ll get this, right? So, I’ll try my best to get you there right now, but you’ll understand it much better when you understand the Old Testament.” And it’s true for the Doctrine and Covenants as well, actually. You’ll understand all other scriptural authors presuppose that you know and understand the Old Testament.

Hank Smith: 00:18:48 Kerry, it’s interesting, we’re talking about the Old Testament, but today, we’re actually not even going to in the lesson manual, we don’t even open the Bible. We open two other books in the Pearl of Great Price, the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham. Now, I know these are both Old Testament because I know Moses and Abraham lived in the Old Testament. But tell us, can you tell us where we got these and how they ended up in the Pearl of Great Price?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:19:10 Yeah, yeah. I’m happy to talk about those. So, let’s do the Book of Moses first. So, in a way we are in Genesis and in a way we’re not in the Book of Moses because the Book of Moses is the Joseph Smith Translation of the first several chapters of the Old Testament. So what happened is just after he finishes, after Joseph Smith finishes publishing the Book of Mormon in March of 1830, in June of 1830, he has this kind of vision or revelation, we’re not sure exactly what it is. But he has this vision or revelation that he titles the vision of Moses when he’s caught up on an exceedingly high mount. And that’s Moses, Chapter 1.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:19:51 And then he starts to work his way systematically through the Old Testament to begin with. Eventually, he’ll stop and go to the New Testament and then come back to the Old Testament. And we don’t know if he’s commanded to go through the Bible and then he has Moses, Chapter 1 or that vision or if he has that vision or revelation, and then he’s commanded to go through. So the rest of it comes as he’s systematically going through the Bible. Maybe Moses one is part of that or the catalyst to it, we don’t know.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:20:23 But he has this revelation come to him and then it keeps coming to him, so Moses, Chapter 1 is received in June. 2  through 3, and actually, I think we talked about this a little bit in our Doctrines and Covenants, Come, Follow Me podcast because it overlapped with the Sections 27 and 28 and 29. But probably somewhere in September, he gets 2 through 3 and/or most of 3 and then kind of right after that, 4 and part of 5 and it just keeps following that year. But it has so much new material. It’s not just little changes that you could footnote to it, a footnote or an appendix.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:21:05 So much new material as Joseph Smith is doing this first part of Genesis that he publishes it separately in the newspapers. And eventually that becomes part of the Pearl of Great Price as the Book of Moses. And so, we really should just think of it that way, because it’s completely accurate to say the Book of Moses is the Joseph Smith translation of the first part of Genesis.

Hank Smith: 00:21:29 Okay. And the reason it’s kind of standalone, it’s interesting, Kerry, with the Joseph Smith Translation, we put some in the footnotes, we put some in the Appendix and we put some in the Pearl of Great Price. So, it’s kind of all over the place in your standard works as if you’re holding on to them. You got to go looking a little bit for that Joseph Smith Translation.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:21:52 And there’s kind of a long complicated textual history behind that. But yeah, the reason that we have it in the Pearl of Great Price is because Joseph published those parts in the Church’s newspapers.

Hank Smith: 00:22:03 Okay, so tell us about the Book of Abraham now.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:22:06 All right, so the Book of Abraham and we get in a different way, although the revelatory process may have been similar, we don’t know a lot about that. Like we said, 1830 is when we get the Joseph Smith Translation started and they’ve worked on it pretty intensely for a couple of years. And as they’ve in many ways, wrapped up that project. A few years later in 1835, there’s a fellow who comes to Kirtland with some mummies and papyri that he’s selling. A fascinating story behind how it gets there and so on and so on, but anyway, he’s selling these.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:22:36 And Joseph feels really impressed to get the papyri, that they have something on there that he needs. Michael Chandler, the fellow who has them, won’t sell them, the mummies and papyri separately, so Joseph has to raise the money to buy all of them. This is when they’re dead poor trying to build the temple, right? They’re just about finishing the temple. They’ll dedicate it less than a year later, so it’s hard to get that money, but it’s so important that they do.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:23:01 And as Joseph translates the papyri and there’s a long complicated history behind what is the revelatory process here? Is the text actually on the papyri or not, and so on. It’s kind of a long, big story. We won’t probably want to get into all the details now. But as Joseph is translating that papyri or at least looking at the papyri and receiving a revelation for a text that Abraham wrote, maybe that’s another possible scenario. That might be a little bit like what happened with the Book of Moses. But one way or the other is he’s working with the papyri through inspiration and revelation from God, he receives the text, a book that Abraham had written when Abraham was alive, and that’s the Book of Abraham.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:23:47 So, Joseph spends time translating that. Eventually seven years later, when he was in Nauvoo, he’ll publish that in the Church’s newspaper called the Times and Seasons. So, similar to the Book of Moses, it gets published in the Church’s newspaper. That’s how he’s getting it out to the Saints.

Hank Smith: 00:24:03 Fantastic. That word translate is such a fascinating word. As I’ve studied for my Book of Mormon classes, the translation of the Book of Mormon, John, you’ll remember this from last year, that word translation can mean yes, going from one language to another. But we talk about translated beings, right? And being translated, becoming more holy, becoming what God wants you to be, right? Becoming more like God. To me, that word translate can have so much more meaning than, “Oh, we’re just taking it from one language to another.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:24:37 Yeah, if you look at the dictionaries from Joseph Smith’s day, you’ll see that it has a broader meaning than we typically assigned to it.

John Bytheway: 00:24:44 Dr. Muhlestein, don’t you have a book coming out about the Book of Abraham?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:24:49 It’s just coming out right now or next week.

John Bytheway: 00:24:52 You’ve been busy.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:24:52 It’s part of Deseret Book. Yeah, yeah. It has been busy for a little while. That’s why I didn’t get the 10 Keys to Understanding the Old Testament written or something like that. But it’s part of Deseret Book’s, Let’s Talk About Series and this is Let’s Talk About: The Book of Abraham. Where you can get a little bit more about the history behind how the papyri got to America and how Joseph Smith gets them and the translation process and the different theories about translation and the fragments we have today and the drawings and all that kind of stuff. So, it’s not super in-depth because it’s a short book, but it’s certainly more in-depth than what we just did. And I think covers the issues in a, I hope, in a good understandable way.

John Bytheway: 00:25:32 Oh, that’s great. There’s a lot of people for whom it can be a stumbling block. Now, wait. How do we get Abraham and what do we still have? And what do those facsimiles actually say? So, I’m looking forward to seeing that.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:25:45 Yeah, and that’s probably worth at least commenting on that for many people, it is a stumbling block because there are a lot of people who are taking inaccurate stories or really simplistic stories about this process and throwing it out there and saying, “Look, this can’t work.” In every case, they’re either withholding information or simplifying it in a ridiculous way and that when people get the miss or simplified information, sometimes they struggle. When you get the full story, my experience is when people get everything that then it really strengthens their testimony and you really come to understand and appreciate Joseph Smith all the more. And so, I think it’s really worth getting the real story instead of silly stuff.

John Bytheway: 00:26:31 One of the things that I have just loved about this whole experience doing this podcast is to talk to people that really know, well trained scholarly and faithful LDS scholars that can tell you, “Now listen, here’s the whole thing.” And it’s really blessed my testimony, I think a lot of people. So, I’m glad to hear a real Egyptologist come on here and say, “Listen, you’re not getting the whole story. Let me give you the whole thing.” So, I’m looking forward to that.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:27:01 And that’s the beauty of a covenant community, isn’t it? No one knows all this stuff. But between all of us, we can know a lot of stuff.

Hank Smith: 00:27:08 Kerry, I would also add that I think for the people I’ve talked to with the Book of Abraham has become a stumbling block, it’s they come in with some bad assumptions about the translation process. And if you’ll allow the history and the text to correct your assumptions, you can actually have a wonderful experience, a faith-fielding experience.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:27:27 I agree. That’s a lot of that misinformation is based on incorrect and faulty assumptions that are stated as if they’re fact.

John Bytheway: 00:27:35 I kind of had approached it maybe backwards, but reading the text itself and just going, “Wow.” And then it’s more like, “Where did this come from?” Because the text itself is so incredible that it’s not something somebody invented. It’s way too incredible, so that helps me just to look at the text itself and go, “Whoa, this is amazing stuff.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:28:01 And that’s what we’ll do a little bit of in just a minute, but I couldn’t agree more. One of the things that I’m just going to be increasingly insistent on is that we don’t let the discussions about the issues surrounding the Book of Abraham eclipse the Book of Abraham itself. That we need to get into the Book of Abraham. Like, so for that, that book, even though it’s mostly about these issues, I just insisted, I said, “We’re going to have the last chapter be about what does the Book of Abraham teach us.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:28:28 I think it’s the same thing with the Book of Mormon. If you’ll get into the scriptures themselves, they speak for themselves, right? The power, the spiritual power, the Holy Ghost will bear witness just the complexity of it and the beauty of it. That goes beyond Joseph Smith. It will testify and you’ll know when you’ll focus on the text rather than on all this other stuff.

John Bytheway: 00:28:52 I don’t care where it came from. This is a revelation. I don’t know how it happened, how the translation or pure revelation or papyrus whatever, but it’s clear this is truth and revelation and powerful stuff.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:29:08 Amen and amen.

Hank Smith: 00:29:10 I remember Elder Maxwell saying, “Don’t chew on an old bone in the front yard when there’s a feast inside.” And that really, there’s a feast inside the Book of Abraham. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:29:20 Hey, can I give you a phrase of Elder Maxwell that I memorized? “Well, God is not interested in a recto-active adulation, but in the prevention of our perspective ruination.”

Hank Smith: 00:29:31 Wow.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:29:33 That is classic Maxwell.

John Bytheway: 00:29:35 Yeah. He’s like, “Wait, what?”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:29:36 There is no one like Maxwell.

John Bytheway: 00:29:38 So, this is great. We mentioned before we’re going to talk about how does this end up in the Pearl of Great Price and, and why was it called that? And at first it was published, you said, in some newspapers.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:29:52 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:29:52 So, how does it all end up in the Pearl of Great Price, the way we have it now.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:29:55 So, what happens is you have a whole bunch of different things that the way that the revelations are originally, most of the things Joseph Smith is teaching are originally distributed to the saints, besides the Book of Mormon, that’s a book, is that the Church almost always has a newspaper. And sometimes they have two, one in Kirtland, one in Missouri and so on. And so, they publish these things and people collected them.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:30:16 So, there was a fellow named Franklin Richards who collected the newspaper publications that were the Book of Moses. He collected the newspaper publications that are about Abraham. He collected what we call when Joseph Smith translated or published the Wentworth Letter and it had the Articles of Faith in it. And Joseph published the story of his own First Vision and so on. Elder, well, Franklin Richards was made an apostle and then he is sent to preside over the mission in England and in England, they have their own newspaper. It’s called the Millennial Star and so, he is presiding there and he’s got all these things.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:30:55 He has a real problem actually in England because they’re supposed to get everyone to migrate to what will eventually become Utah, right? So, he keeps getting these converts and just as they’re getting seasoned in the gospel, they leave. And so, he is trying to run a church with always new converts, right? And that’s tricky. So, to help them know the doctrines that are new and part of the Restoration, he decides to put together a little booklet. So, he uses the press, the Millennial Star Press.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:31:29 And he puts together a booklet with, and initially it has some of the revelations that will eventually be in the Doctrine and Covenants, but aren’t yet or that even a couple that are, but they don’t have a Doctrine and Covenants in England yet. So, he publishes like sections of or parts of Section 20. Which you can see if you’ve got a church you’re trying to run. It’s really important to know what baptismal prayer or sacramental prayers, the different offices of the priesthood. So, he’s got different things like that in there. But he puts in the stuff from the Book of Moses, it’s not called the Book of Moses yet. He calls it that, but he puts in those revelations. He puts in the translations from Abraham. He puts the Articles of Faith, the Joseph Smith History, Joseph Smith-Matthew.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:32:10 He even puts in a poem he really likes called Truth, that later will be taken out and put into a hymn book as, “Oh Say, What is Truth.” But he puts all that in just as a little booklet and he feels like this booklet is so important for the Saints there, that he gives it a title from a parable in the New Testament where the Savior talks about if you found a pearl of great price, you’d sell everything you had for it. So, he calls it the Pearl of Great Price. And this, he prints enough of those that the Saints in England can have that to know these key doctrines that they need.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:32:42 Well, of course, they keep moving to Utah, so pretty soon you end up with a bunch of Saints in Utah. They have this cool little booklet that the other Saints don’t have and so, people get interested in that. And eventually, the Church asks Elder Orson Pratt to go through and edit it and make some sense of it. And he takes out some of the stuff that’s in the Doctrine and Covenants, takes the poem out, kind of organizes it a little bit more. And then in 1880, they canonized it.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:33:11 In fact, I have to say this, I just love that it’s actually George Q. Cannon, who holds it up and proposes that we be accepted as canon. There’s just something wonderful about Cannon, Elder Cannon doing that. But so that’s how we get the Pearl of Great Price is it’s kind of the paired down version of this booklet that was created to help the Church run in England.

John Bytheway: 00:33:33 That’s so interesting. They’re taking this out saying, “Look, new revelations and using it as part of their missionary discussions, I guess you could say.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:33:45 Yeah. It’s a little bit of missionary discussions, but even more so it’s intended for those who have already joined the Church so that they will know the doctrines of the Church that are unique to the Church. And really when you think about new stuff, besides the Book of Mormon, which they have also, I mean, the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses contained some really core and unique doctrines for us.

Hank Smith: 00:34:10 That’s interesting, Kerry, that people would show up in Utah. New members of the Church from England and they have scripture that the people in Utah are going, “Hey, where’d you get that? I want that.” Right?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:34:20 Yeah, yeah. And they’re not calling it scripture yet. It will happen, but you’re right. It really is scripture. It’s inspired from God. So, you’re right. They’re like, “Hey, that’s kind of cool.” So in fact, this even comes into the story like the Willie and Martin Handcart Companies. And it’s Elder Richards who overtakes them if you’re familiar with that story and goes and meets Brigham Young. So, when he’s released from being the mission president, he’s going faster and he passes all these people who are his converts in England. And he gets to Utah and he tells Brigham Young, “There’s some people out there in the cold. We need to go get them.” But they’re part of the groups. They’re several groups that do this, but they’re part of the groups that are bringing this little pamphlet with them.

John Bytheway: 00:34:59 So, let’s summarize then, Pearl of Great Price today is the Book of Moses, the Book of Abraham.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:35:07 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:35:07 The Articles of Faith.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:35:09 Yep. Joseph Smith History, which we did last year. Joseph Smith-Matthew.

John Bytheway: 00:35:13 And Joseph Smith-Matthew?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:35:15 Yeah, which is the Joseph Smith translation of Matthew 24, so we’ll do that next year. So, we used the Pearl of Great Price, three of the four, well, we actually use it when we do the Book of Mormon as well, because it has the story of Moroni coming and giving the place to Joseph and so on. So, we actually use the Pearl of Great Price in every Come, Follow Me year. It just doesn’t get a year of its own, but it’s pretty integral to everything we do.

John Bytheway: 00:35:40 Yeah, I’ve heard people say that the Pearl of Great Price encompasses everything from the Premortal Existence to the Last Days in Joseph Smith-Matthew. It’s got everything in it.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:35:51 Yeah, it does, it does.

John Bytheway: 00:35:51 As far as the time period, it covers the whole existence of the planet, you know?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:35:56 Yeah. That’s actually very, very correct.

Hank Smith: 00:35:59 Hey, Kerry, I think it’s time. We can jump into our lesson now. Thank you for that incredible background information. Like this is crucial stuff, yeah.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:36:08 Good clean fun.

Hank Smith: 00:36:09 The lesson this week is on Moses 1, Abraham 3.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:36:13 So, Abraham 3 is one of my favorite chapters of scripture anywhere. There’s just so much powerful stuff in it and sometimes it’s a little bit confusing to people, but maybe we can jump in and see if we can understand some really key and core doctrines that I think are in Abraham, Chapter 3. This is the Lord, again, teaching using symbols and there are two levels of things going on here.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:36:39 One, he’s teaching Abraham and by extension us, but he’s also telling Abraham that he’s telling him these things, so that he can go and teach them in Egypt, so if we were to look at verse 15, “And the Lord said unto me: Abraham, I show these things unto thee, before ye go into Egypt, that you may declare all these words.” Right? So, this is Abraham’s passport into Egypt as it were. And the Lord is giving him a vision of the heavens or of astronomy, we could say, and that’s going to help Abraham in a couple of ways.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:37:15 One, the Egyptians, we’ve talked about how Old Testament people are really symbol-oriented. The Egyptians are even more so, right? I mean, these are the kings of symbols in the history of the world. They really are into symbolism. And they’re very familiar with keeping track of the stars and what’s going on with the stars and with attaching meaning and stories to those things, so if you have someone down who can teach them new things about astronomy, there were priests whose job it was to know astronomy, to keep track of the stars. This was their priestly office and they were some of the most important priests ever, right?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:37:50 So, to have someone that can come down and teach them astronomy, automatically, this is putting Abraham at the upper level of their class and of people, right? He’s now co-equal with their highest and most important priests. And he’s going to be able to teach them and they’re going to listen to them about astronomy and then they will naturally expect that there’s some symbolism that they should learn from that. So, this is if we’re going to use modern missionary parlance, this is both building common ground and building a relationship of trust, right? This is how Abraham is able to get into the court and get them to listen to them and take them seriously.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:38:29 So, with that in mind, let’s look at what does God actually teach Abraham. It’s a series of two visions and we see that often in the scriptures, actually. Prophets will have a vision and then another vision right after. So, Lehi has that and Moses has that. We’ll do that in a second in Moses 1. Abraham seems to have it here and it starts out if we look at, at verse 1, it starts out using the Urim and Thummim. And through there, he sees a vision of the stars and not just stars, but all sorts of celestial spheres and bodies and so on.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:39:03 And God teaches him something. He shows him that there, with all of these things, that there’s an order and there’s always something that is above and below. If you have one thing, there’s something that’s above it and there’s something that’s below it. Now, the way that he assigns that order is by it’s in a way, it’s the rotation of the planet. It seems to be a mixture of rotation in orbit.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:39:30 But it’s how long a day is basically, right? Which is in a way, the rotation of the planet. That may have to do with the size of the planet. It may have to do with the speed. It may, the orbit can affect these things, all sorts of stuff, so we don’t know how much any of those things are important. And in fact, I’ll say, I’m not sure that God is even giving him a completely accurate view of astronomy from God’s point of view. My guess is he’s not, that God understands this on a level we’re not capable of understanding. And so, he’s just giving him something that works, right?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:40:05 So, I’ll just give you an example of that. For what he’s talking about is the slower the rotation and the longer the orbit, the higher their nature, right? Well, that actually works really, really well for the Egyptians, because the way the Egyptians conceived of the heavens is whatever encircled, everything else is, what controlled everything else.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:40:31 Now, from their point of view, the sun is encircling the earth. So, the sun is greater than the earth and controls the earth, right? So it’s the outside kind of celestial body and the way it circles everything else, it encircles, that is the phrase they use that is the highest, and that controls things, right? So, God is giving it to Abraham in a way that works really, really well for the Egyptians. But I’ll just tell you my experience when I try and explain it that way to my students. And I say, “Okay, the thing that’s outside is the most important thing that controls things.” And if I want to and I try and draw these things like with different orbits and things, and if I put it as the outside thing, being the most important. And then I say, “So God is outside.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:41:19 It just doesn’t work for us. We are, it’s just so drilled into our minds that the thing that’s at the center is what’s most important. And it’s what controls everything else. That it doesn’t matter how often I explain, no, it’s the outside. We’re talking about the outside. It doesn’t work for them. It doesn’t make sense. It’s not intuitive. They can’t understand it. So, instead, I’ve just taken a saying, “Okay, just so for the Egyptians, it’s this encircling thing, it’s this outside thing.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:41:41 But when I draw it, I’m going to say God is at the center. Kolob is at the center, and that’s how I pictorially depicted it because it just doesn’t work for them in any other way. And I suspect that God’s probably doing something like that for these guys. It’s probably not. Astronomy probably doesn’t work even exactly this way. It’s just saying, “Okay, this is what works for you guys. Let’s go with this.” Right? We’re not going to tell you something that’s not going to make any sense to you.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:42:03 So, we get this idea that you have different celestial bodies and he tells us that if you have two bodies, one is above and one is below it until you get to Kolob and Kolob because its rotation is so slow, a thousand years is a day, right? So, one day for Kolob is a thousand years for us. It takes a thousand of our years for it to rotate around once because of that, it is the highest order celestial sphere. But he tells this is not just because of that, it’s also because it’s nearest to God, right? Those are the two things.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:42:48 So let’s, let’s read a couple verses just to kind of get that idea. If we were to read verse 6 in Abraham, Chapter 3, “And the Lord said unto me: Now, Abraham, these two facts exist, behold thine eyes see it; it is given unto thee to know the times of reckoning, and the set time. …” So that’s this, like the orbiting and the rotations and so on. “Yea, the set time of the earth upon which thou standest and the set time of the greater light, which is set to rule the day,” that would be the sun “And the set time with the lesser light, which is set to rule the night.” And then, he goes on to talk about these things. And some of those worked for us the way we understand astronomy and some don’t. And I don’t think that’s really important because again, he’s using it in a way that makes sense to them.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:43:34 We get back to Verse 8, “And where these two facts,” meaning two celestial spheres, “exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still; And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:44:05 So, you see what he’s saying? He’s saying, anytime you see a celestial sphere, you can know there’s something that is of a higher order than that and a lower order than that. That’s true for everything except Kolob. Kolob sits at the top of this order. So, that’s the astronomy lesson. And then we get into the next vision, so that’s going to start with verse 11.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:44:29 “Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face.” So, this is not Urim and Thummim or if it is Urim and Thummim, it’s somehow gotten to him to where he is talking face to face. “As one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works of his hand or the works which his hands had made; And he said unto me: My son, my son.” Now, let’s keep that phrase in mind. We’re going to encounter this in Moses 1 as well.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:44:51 Think of all that is taught by saying that. Just, “My child, my child,” is what God would say to any of us. I’ll just say I use frequently with my kids when I really want them to know, when we’re having a little interaction, but I want them to know how much I love them and of our deep connection. I’ll just say, “Hey, my boy,” or, “Hey, my girl.  Or “How are you doing,” or whatever else, right? But just including that phrase, it really does, it just automatically brings this tenderness to the interaction right? Think of what that must do for Abraham or Moses when this is God., right? And we’ll talk more about it in Moses 1, but I think it’s a key phrase.

Hank Smith: 00:45:33 Because instead of just using their name, he establishes a relationship by saying, “My son.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:45:42 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:45:43 Yeah, instead of just Abraham, let me say this, “My son, my son.” And I was thinking when you said that, I thought, “Oh, he does that to Moses, too.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:45:50 Yeah, yeah. And I think we’ll talk about it more there.

Hank Smith: 00:45:53 There’s a sense of ownership there, right? Like, “Mine, you’re mine.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:45:57 Yeah. And remember, if you remember back to the Abraham Covenant, the key element of the Abrahamic Covenant is relationship with God. Everything else in the Abrahamic Covenant focuses on that. So, here with Abraham, that’s a really an important aspect to see. And that’s what he’s establishing is this relationship with him.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:46:21 And then he says, “Behold I will show you all these. And he put his hand upon mine eyes, and I saw those things which his hands had made, which were many; and they multiplied before mine eyes, and I could not see the end thereof.” So you get the sense that whatever he’s been seeing before, he’s going to see more of it now. Again, we’re going to see the same thing with Moses. There’s some remarkable parallels here. But in the second vision, he uses what he just taught him about astronomy as an analogy or an allegory for what he really wants to teach him and that’s about beings. And he’s going to use the phrase, “Intelligences.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:46:56 Now, intelligences is used in the scriptures to mean a number of things. And it seems like even in this vision, it means more than one thing. Intelligences are, it’s sometimes used both in the scriptures and the teachings of prophets to describe what we were before God gave us spirit bodies. Before it was something that existed even without God creating it. It’s self-existent, but then God took whatever we were and we’ll call it an intelligence, but whatever it was and housed it in a spirit body in the same way that our spirit bodies are later housed in a physical body by our earthly parents. Right? I mean, I don’t know that it’s exactly the same way, but the same idea.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:47:36 We don’t know the process by which God creates our spirit bodies, but he takes whatever existed before and he gives it a spirit body. So, we have this intelligence, Joseph Smith tells, teaches us, it’s an uncreated thing. It has all always existed. But he that’s when he becomes our father when we receive this, this intelligence receives this spirit body, right? So, it’s going to be used that way.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:48:00 But it’s also going to be used the way that we see it used in Section 93, where intelligence is light and truth. We’re going to see it used both ways in this chapter. And especially when he talks about beings being more intelligent than others. I don’t think he’s saying more of whatever that uncreated element was. And I don’t think he means what we would call intelligent quotient, right? An IQ. He seems in that case when he’s talking about some beings being more intelligent than others, to be talking about how much light and truth they have, right? And we’ll look at how we can figure that out as we go along.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:48:37 So, we get in a couple of verses there in like 13 and 14, he’s going to talk about the stars again. And then in verse 15, he tells us, as we already read this, “I’m telling you this, so you can go down to Egypt.” Now, let’s stop and ask ourselves, “Was God telling Abraham all these things? Was he sitting in Heaven and saying, ‘You know, Abraham.” So many great things Abraham can do, but what I’m most worried about is he’s kind of weak on astronomy, right? And probably not right. Or I’m going to tell Abraham these things. “You can go to the Egyptians.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:49:06 The Egyptians, they worshiped over a thousand gods and they’ve got all sorts of the problems going on and so on. But my biggest concern is that they really don’t get astronomy the way they should. Right? Obviously not. God wants him to teach the gospel. This is the tool to enable him to teach the gospel. So here’s where we’re going to get into it. In verse 16, he reminds him, ” If there are two things that exist, one is above the other, Kolob is above all of them,” right?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:49:34 And then in verse 18, he’s going to switch that to saying, “This is really an analogy about spirits or intelligences.” So, verse 18, “Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning.” So, this is the intelligence part before, right? “They existed before and they shall have no end. They shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.” So, gnolaum is, today, we’d say olaum, but Joseph Smith’s Hebrew grammar said this is how you pronounce that word, so he put this GN on the front. But anyway, this the Hebrew word for eternal

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:50:16 Now, 19 is probably the key to the whole thing. Verse 19, “And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist.” So, So remember, that’s the same thing he said when he talked about these celestial bodies, right? When two facts exist, one is above the other. Here he is saying that, “These two facts do exist that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:50:46 All right, so you see what he’s saying. In the same way that if you look at the stars and there’s always one above another, that’s true of spirit beings. “There’s always one that has more light and truth, or more intelligent than another until you get to me. I possess all light and truth,” right? And this is what Moses will be able to go into, to Pharaoh and say, “Let me teach you about astronomy.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:51:10 And then you can say, “Hey, Pharaoh, I know you think you’re a semi-divine. I know you think you’re kind of a God. And I know you think that, okay, you’ve got several kings, like the King of Kush and Kings of Mesopotamia. And there are some who are more powerful than others. But I know you think you’re more powerful than them. But just like there’s something more powerful than the sun, there’s something more powerful than you and that is God, Jehovah. He is more intelligent, possessing more light and truth than everyone and everything else.” All right?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:51:44 So in the end, what Abraham, Chapter 3 is really teaching us about is our relationship with God. Again, that’s why I think it’s so key that he starts out with, “My son.” This whole thing is teaching us about our relationship with God and that God is above us. But the beautiful thing is it doesn’t stop there, right? It doesn’t just say, “I’m above you,” end of story, right?

Hank Smith: 00:52:07 Kerry, I was going to say, it sounds almost like a little MTC, like, “I’m going to teach you their language, so you can go teach them. All right. I’m going to teach you how they think, how they,” almost like Ammon and Lamoni, right?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:52:22 Lamoni? Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:52:22 Right. This idea of, “Do you believe in God? I don’t know what that is. What do you believe in? I believe in a great spirit. Okay. Let’s get some common ground. I understand where you’re coming from so I can build from there.” So, I really like what you’ve done here. This is fantastic. Little Abraham MTC here. Now, you can go to Egypt and teach them.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:52:41 Yeah, I think that’s exactly what it is and we missed out on that. If we’re not willing to kind of pay the price to work through this, what’s going on with these Kokaubeam and the Kolob and stuff and put ourselves in their mindset, then we miss what the teaching tool God is using. So, I think it’s worth just kind of going through like we have to say, “Okay, how would they have understood it? Oh, now, I see the teaching tool God is using. I’m getting what’s going on in the MTC. “

Hank Smith: 00:53:07 Thank you for pointing that out. That verse 18 as also, I mean, I underlined that and put in my margin just now. Abraham relates this astronomy lesson to differing spirits. He’s like, that is great. That’s like a pivot point there in verse 18. Now let me…

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:53:25 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:53:26 Everything, I just told you let’s relate this.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:53:28 Let’s put it this way. I don’t think this is the “Gospel according to Kerry,” but based on scriptures, so hopefully I’m reading scriptures correctly. I don’t think this means that whoever studies the most and the fastest and the hardest becomes godly first. This isn’t about studying. It’s about becoming and as we become more godly or we could put it this, well, we will put it this way in just a minute. If you act on the light and truth you have, it changes your nature, which allows you to become the kind of being that can receive more light and truth. And then you act on that and you can receive more light and truth.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:54:02 Now let’s also be very, very, very clear, none of us can act perfectly on the light and truth we have. So, we need the atoning sacrifice of Christ to change our natures, right? So, I’ll do my best at acting on what I have and then Christ will change my nature to be more like his, and that allows me to receive more light and truth. And then if I do, give it my best shot. And if I’m sure that that John’s best shot is better than mine and probably Hank’s is too. So, I’m just teasing you, Hank. But anyway, I’m absolutely convinced that you guys have fantastic best shots at acting on the light and truth you have. And some of us have mediocre best shots, and that doesn’t matter.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:54:47 However, good your best shot is it’s good enough then Christ changes your nature and you become more like him. And that allows you to be the kind of being that can receive more light and truth. And then you just keep going through that process again and again. It’s a cycle, right? It’s a series of cycles.

John Bytheway: 00:55:03 It’s kind of reminding me of Section 50, that which is of God is light and to receiveth light and continue within God, keep giving it your best shot, keep repenting, then you’ll receive more light.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:55:19 Well, let’s keep going if it’s all right, because I think this is where we get into all of this kind of ethereal teaching about one intelligence being more intelligent than the others and God put it into some concrete terms of the plan for us, right? So, let’s go into verse 22. “Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was. …” So, when it says we’re organized, I don’t know this for sure. But I think that’s the way God says, because organize is another word for created, right?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:55:53 So, I think that’s another way of saying, “Once I had housed these intelligences in spirit bodies … so, I’ve organized them. I’ve put them in this kind of organized state of being.” That’s, I don’t know for sure, but I think that’s what that’s saying. So anyway, there are intelligences that are organized before the world was, so here we go with premortality. In General Conference, if the Book of Abraham is going to be cited, the most common reason is to talk about premortality. Abrahamic Covenant is the next most common reason, but the most common reason is to talk about premortality. Premortality is one of the doctrines. What we know about premortality is one of the things that are unique about us as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:56:33 We know not very much about premortality, but more than most others. And this is one of the key places. We know more about it from this chapter than just about any place else. And you’ll see it’s precious little, but still it’s so important. It’s so key. So, the idea is that there were intelligences that have been organized or put in spirit bodies, whichever way, before the world even existed. We were there with God before the world existed, right? And among all these, there were many of the noble and great ones. So, even then, even in premortality, there are some who are greater than others.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:57:09 I’m going to assume that’s on the same principle. There are some who have more light and truth than others. It’s not that they had a more innate intelligence or something like that. It’s based on what they do with the light and truth they had, right? So he says, “Among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; and God saw these souls that they were good; and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said into me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou was born.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:57:45 We learned that Abraham was foreordained to be and do what he was going to be and do in mortality. And I think some people get confused with that because of the idea of predestination that was so, such a big thing and so important in Joseph Smith’s day, right? Predestination means don’t have a choice in the matter, but foreordination does.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:58:07 So, there’s an analogy I’ve found that really helps my students understand this. I can say, “Okay, if you go through the temple, you’re actually foreordained to be exalted,” right? That’s part of the blessings promised you. You go through the temple, you’re foreordained for exaltation. But we all know that not everybody who goes through the temple will be exalted because not everyone will actually do the things that they said they would do when they were foreordained to that.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:58:36 And I would suppose it worked the same way in premortality. If we were foreordained according to covenants and agreements that we made and if we don’t live up to our part, then the foreordination is not going to happen. If we do, then it will, right? So, that’s something at least that can make sense to my brain to help me understand foreordination a little bit better. In a way, I think we’re reading in Abraham 3 and Moses 1, we’re kind of reading about Abraham and Moses getting their patriarchal blessing from God, which is not, I mean, I like patriarchs a lot, but God’s even more cool.

Hank Smith: 00:59:08 Kerry, I was just going to say one, maybe make one quick comment on how limited the Bible is on a premortal life and how crucial Restoration scripture is to our understanding that we made a choice to come here, right? Without the restoration scripture, the premortal life is almost. We have a tiny view into it and maybe five verses in John and that’s it.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 00:59:31 Yeah, yeah. The Bible has very, very little.  Prophets have written a few things on this, but in the Old Testament, we really get one verse about Jeremiah, where God says, he knew him before he formed him in the belly. You get John you have God talking about before the world was created and you get a couple of things, Paul talking about Israel being based on the people who were, how many people are going to come down and so on. I mean, he’s kind of hinting at, but doesn’t give you anything really about mortality.

John Bytheway: 01:00:05 And maybe Job, the sons of God’s shouted for joy, but yeah, it’s a hint. It’s a hint at best, you know?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:00:13 Yeah, yeah. We learn more in these couple verses and including the ones that will read and follow this, but we learn more about premortality here than all of the Biblical scriptures put together. And I’m not dissing the Bible, right? I’m just saying, “Hooray for the Restoration.” But let’s keep going because this is when we get even more key information about premortality. At verse 24.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:00:39 “And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him,” and this is going to be very clearly Christ, right? So, this tells us that already Christ was someone special, right? He has already acted on the light and truth he has so much that he is similar to God, right? He’s advanced so much that we’re already like, “Well, that one’s gone.” Right? Anyway, “And he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials,” so he’s talking about creation, “And we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:01:20 Now, let’s just take a break there. He’s not proving us because God didn’t know, right? It’s the process. This process we’ve been talking about. We need to give them the opportunity to receive light and truth and see what they do with it, right? And we get that if we keep reading. So, verse 25 or 26, “And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:01:49 So, this goes back to this, this principle with light and truth that we find taught in one way or another in tons of places in the scriptures. And that’s this, if you receive the light and truth, you have, if you act on it and receive, that’s really what it means to receive it, then you’ll get more. And if you don’t receive it then you’ll lose what you have. There’s not a static light and truth. There’s no status quo for maintaining the light and truth you have. You’re either getting more or you’re losing what you have.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:02:16 Those are your two options, right? And that’s just the nature of, of, I guess our beings and their ability to be receptacles that receive and hold light and truth, in any case. So, “Those who don’t keep it will not have glory out in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate.” Now listen to this next part. “And they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.” Now let’s think about that. This idea that we can keep receiving light and truth until we receive a fullness of light and truth.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:02:52 But that verse in a way, reshapes the way we understand all of this stuff about astronomy and intelligences because if you didn’t have this second part, if you just had up through verse 19, you could feel like, “Okay, I have this much intelligence. Someone else has more, someone else has more, God has the most, and we’re stuck there.” That’s where it is. But this is telling us no, right? And we have places in scriptures where glory is equated with light and truth. So, it’s telling us, “No, you can have light and truth, which will equal glory added upon you forever.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:03:25 In other words, God is telling us we can jump orbits, right? Yes, you may be a planet that’s orbiting here, but you can jump orbits and get closer and closer and closer to God until you are linked to God on Kolob, right? That’s what this is telling us that we’re not static in our light and truth. We’re not static in our orbits. We’re ready to move up. God is inviting us to be with him where he is.

Hank Smith: 01:03:53 You can jump orbits, I love it.

John Bytheway: 01:03:55 That’s in my margins now.

Hank Smith: 01:03:55 Come on, there’s the invitation. Yeah.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:03:59 Yeah. That’s good stuff.

John Bytheway: 01:04:00 And this idea, it’s so encouraging. It’s so empowering. There doesn’t have to be a dead end anyway. But I’m stuck on verse 25, I think that’s one of the greatest purpose of life type things ever that we get to choose to follow. It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t know what we’re going to do, but here’s a chance where we can know.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:04:27 It reminds me of that, that talk we had in this last General Conference, the Parable of the Slope, right? The slope and the intercept. This idea that it doesn’t matter where you start. I don’t think God cares how much light and truth you have when you start. You could be 7 million orbits away from him or 10 orbits away from him, that doesn’t matter. The question is, “What are you doing with the light and truth you have?”

John Bytheway: 01:04:49 Oh, so important.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:04:51 So, don’t feel bad that President Nelson is more capable than you are and don’t feel too great that you’re more capable than I am, right? The question is what are you doing with the light and truth you have? Even if you have a crash, get back in and drive again.

John Bytheway: 01:05:08 Get back on the horse.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:05:09 Yeah, that’s right.

Hank Smith: 01:05:11 I was going to add one thing about Peter. I just love that idea that Peter recovers, from maybe a bad moment in life. He recovers and turns around, becoming a mighty voice. So Alma, the younger, Paul. This idea of you can recover from a crash if we’re taking on our Drivers Ed analogy.

John Bytheway: 01:05:32 Hank, thank you. And I love how the Lord didn’t treat Peter like the Three Denial Guy. He treated Peter as he knew he would be, later, I think. A I love that he treated Peter based on his potential, I’ll say it that way.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:05:50 Yeah. And I think he treats all of us that way all the time. Well, these next two verses I think are actually the perfect segue to Moses, chapter 1. This is fantastic stuff about premortality that we will see echoed in Moses, Chapter 1, where we learn about Christ and Satan, right? And we really learn about them in, in Moses 1, but verse 27, “And the Lord said: Whom shall I send?” And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I and send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate.”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:06:23 And so, this is the first person who didn’t act on the light and truth they have and lost it. And did it in such a way that he’s not going to get it back. Right? But it also teaches us Christ. In fact, we find Abraham using this phrase elsewhere, we find the great prophets using this, this “Here am I,” the Hebrew phrase is hineni, which really does mean like, “See me. Here I am. Here I am and behold me.”

John Bytheway: 01:06:55 I was going to say, this is the call of Isaiah, right? Doesn’t he say the same thing?

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:07:00 Right. Yeah, that’s exactly right. And we see it several places. But the idea is that when the Lord says, “I need someone,” you just say, “Here I am. Do you see me? I’m right here and I’m ready. Whatever you’re asking, I’m ready and none of us, I think, including at this point, Christ, fully understands all that will entail. I mean, if I read the accounts in Gethsemane correctly, I don’t think Christ understood until he was suffering it in Gethsemane, the depth of what he was going to go through.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:07:30 But it doesn’t matter whether we fully understand it and let’s be clear. None of us really understand what we’re getting into when we sign up for marriage or for parenthood, because it’s harder and better than we would’ve thought, right? But you don’t have the faintest clue when you sign up for it. You just say, “Okay. I believe this is going to work out. Let’s do this.” And that’s the attitude we need to have for everything God asks of us.

John Bytheway: 01:07:54 Sorry for this note of humor, but I think it’s Elder Bruce C. Hafen in one of his books, he talked about one of his daughters saying, “Yay, I’m engaged. I’m getting married. I’m at the end of my troubles.” Sister Hafen said, “Yeah, which end?”

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:08:08 Yeah, yeah, that’s right, yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:08:10 So that, “Most of my problems I either married or gave birth to, “I heard someone say, so.

Dr. Kerry Muhle…: 01:08:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they are all of this, including mortality is both worse and better than we thought it would be, right? Or more difficult, maybe not worse. But more difficult than we thought it would be. And that’s the reason that it ends up being better than we thought it would be.

John Bytheway: 01:08:32 God is more interested in growth than he is in our comfort.

John Bytheway: 01:08:41 Please join us for Part 2 of this podcast.