Hank Smith: 00:00:00 Hello my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my wise co-host, John Bytheway. Hi, John. Welcome to followHIM.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 Hi, Hank. I’m trying to be wise.

Hank Smith: 00:00:11 Yes, you are.

John Bytheway: 00:00:12 Not just a wise guy.

Hank Smith: 00:00:14 John, we are going to be in the Epistle of James today. I know you know a little bit about James. What are you looking forward to?

John Bytheway: 00:00:21 Oh, I love this book because this is what’s amazing today. The number of chapters is only five, which tells us this is going to be very rich. And the other thing I like about James is it has a lot of one-liners, sound bites, bumper sticker wisdom, a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. Boom. It sounds like the Proverbs a little bit, but also has some great practical gospel in it. I’m looking forward to it.

Hank Smith: 00:00:46 Yeah, that’s beautiful. I have a memory of mowing my lawn years and years ago listening to Elder Holland speak on the tongue of angels. He took his message from the Epistle of James, or at least that was the genesis of his talk. John, we’re joined by a scriptural expert today, Dr. J.B. Haws. J.B., it’s been a while since you’ve been with us. What are we looking forward to in James today?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:01:09 I loved what you and John both said. I’m excited for this book for so many gems. I think it’s the kind of book that really speaks to people who are already on the path of discipleship and want to deepen their discipleship. It’s a great book for introspection, a great book for looking inside ourselves and saying, what’s next for me? What would the spirit prompt me as a next mountain to climb and kind of an Elder Maxwell, way of thinking about it. There’s a lot in here that I think will just speak to every reader. I love this book.

Hank Smith: 00:01:36 Beautiful. I’ve been looking forward to this for a while. Like I said before, J.B. hasn’t been here for a while. John, I think if I remember right, we were in our first month of recording when we had J.B. here. Can you reintroduce him to our listeners? I don’t know if there’s anyone still with us from that first month, John.

John Bytheway: 00:01:57 Yeah, we were in section, what was it? 10 of the Doctrine and Covenants?

Hank Smith: 00:02:00 Section 10 and 11, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:02:00 It’s very early.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:02:02 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:02:03 In church history. When you said that, Hank, I thought, wow, has it been that long? We love J.B. and just really love having him back. He’s an associate professor of Church History and Doctrine at BYU, and currently the director of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute. He’s the author of The Mormon Image in the American Mind: Fifty Years of Public Perception that was published by Oxford in 2013. I wore some Oxford’s once, but I’ve never had anything published there. His PhD is from the University of Utah in American History.

  00:02:34 He’s also interested in interfaith outreach. He served as the coordinator of BYU’s Office of Religious Outreach from 2016 to 2018. And before coming to BYU, J.B. taught seminary in northern Utah, Salt Lake, and Weber counties. His research interests center on the place of the church in 20th and 21st century America. As for his interest in history generally, he asks, “How could you not be interested in history when you come from a place in pioneer times known as Muskrat Springs?” Now, Hooper, did I say that right, Hooper?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:03:08 Thank you for representing that so well, John. Everyone in Hooper is thanking you right now for doing that beautifully.

John Bytheway: 00:03:16 J.B. is married to the beautiful Laura Favero, which he submits as yet another evidence miracles have not ceased. They have three boys and a daughter, and now a daughter-in-law as his oldest son is married. They love living in Provo and cheering sometimes too fanatically for the Cougars. I love this part. He served a Spanish-speaking mission in Raleigh, North Carolina, so he speaks Spanish with a slight southern accent and a little Hooper, Utah accent too. So, can you demonstrate that for us, J.B.?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:03:46 I’m not sure that’s fit for podcast, fit for radio or video.

Hank Smith: 00:03:51 We have to remember, John, J.B. is now the director of the Maxwell Institute. He can no longer joke around with us like he used to.

John Bytheway: 00:03:58 Yeah, there’s certain parameters. That’s right. But I did want to mention too, and we mentioned this a couple of years ago, didn’t we Hank? That in the speeches.byu.edu website, there’s some real treasures, and J.B. Haws gave a talk called Wrestling with Comparisons in May of 2019, which anybody can access at speeches.byu.edu, which you’ll want to hear that if you haven’t already or hear it again. Didn’t you listen to it again, Hank?

Hank Smith: 00:04:23 Yeah, just preparing for our interview today, I listened to it again this week and it’s just absolutely wonderful. In fact, I want to share just a story from J.B.’s talk again. It’s called Wrestling with Comparisons. It’s a BYU devotional. It’s a story he told about his children. He said, “I have four wonderful children, Parley, Marshall, Truman and Ashley, and I’ve learned so many lessons from them. An image that is as vivid in my mind today as it was when it happened a dozen years ago, is a backyard game of catch with my two oldest boys, Parley and Marshall. Parley was five or six years old. Marshall was probably three. I would throw the football to each of them in turn. Parley was catching the football almost every time. Marshall, not so much. I can see Marshall concentrating, watching the ball and then missing it every time.

  00:05:07 No matter how I threw the ball, it seemed like it always hit him on the head as it went right through his hands.” I wonder if that still happens today. J.B., we’ll have to ask for an update on this. He said, “His hands, which were just closing for the ball, just one beat too early or too late. Luckily, it was a really soft inflatable football. But here’s the thing I will never forget. Marshall cheered, jumped up and down and squealed into light every time Parley caught it. I can still hear his little voice yelling, ‘Good catch, Par. That was great, Par.’ And then he would miss the next throw that came to him. But somehow that did not dampen his enthusiasm for Parley’s success. Somehow he knew that his contest was not with Parley. He could have joy in Parley’s success.”

  00:05:54 And then he asks a great question, John. “How do we recapture that sense of childlike celebration for the good fortune of others?” Just a small portion of a fantastic message. Has Marshall improved at all, J.B., in his catching or?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:06:10 Yeah, he would be very unhappy if I was not hasting to say that he’s much better at catching the football now. So yeah, he’s a great athletic kid. He still is the kind who just cheers people on. I admire that about him. It’s just innate in him. Hats off to Marshall for both improved athletic prowess but also just continuing to be that kind of person. Love that guy.

Hank Smith: 00:06:32 We hope everyone listening today will go find that Wrestling with Comparisons talk. J.B., let’s jump into the book of James. The manual focuses quite a bit, at least in the beginning here on Joseph Smith and of course, many if not all of us listening, when we think of the Epistle of James will automatically go to that verse, James 1:5. Here’s what the manual says. “Sometimes just one verse of scripture can change the world. James 1:5 seems like a simple bit of counsel. If you need wisdom, ask God. But when 14-year-old Joseph Smith read that verse, it seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of his heart. Thus, inspired Joseph acted on James admonition and sought wisdom from God through prayer and God did indeed give liberally, giving Joseph one of the most remarkably heavenly visitations in human history. The first vision. This vision changed the course of Joseph’s life and led to the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth.”

  00:07:28 All of us are blessed today because Joseph Smith read and acted on James 1:5. I’ve thought that before. How much of my life would be different without Joseph Smith. And then the manual goes on. “What will you find as you study the Epistle of James? Perhaps a verse or two will change you or someone you love. You may find guidance as you seek to fulfill your mission in life. You may find encouragement to speak kindly or to be more patient. You may feel prompted to make your actions align better with your faith. Whatever inspires you, let these words enter into every feeling of your heart.” Quoting Joseph Smith there. “And then when you receive with meekness the word,” as James wrote, “be a doer of the word, not a hearer only.” What a great introduction. When we take on the Epistle of James, how should we go about it?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:08:16 Wow, great introduction. That’s thought-provoking. One of the things that I think a number of great commentators and great scholars who have given close attention to James and I give credit to those that have blessed my life with their deep study, is that they point out a couple of things. One, John mentioned this connection to wisdom literature like Proverbs and that’s really great too, but also the number of places where James seems to be connecting to the Sermon on the Mount, restated, paraphrased Sermon on the Mount verses, and this is one that some commentators highlight that has a parallel in Jesus’s injunction to, “Ask, and you shall receive. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” This is a rephrased, reframed way of saying that. But what is striking me just when you reread that Hank, it just makes me think of maybe this is encouraging to all of us as teachers and parents or even scripture students, that sometimes we wonder if repetition really is effective.

  00:09:12 So, think how many places in the scriptures we have this invitation to ask God, but it was this one that resonated with Joseph Smith. It was this repetition of that invitation that somehow sunk into his heart and entered with more force than any other verse ever had and stayed with him. And it was something about that day, something about maybe what he had heard, something that he’d been talking about. It was this verse. James can be a model of thinking of it’s worth repeating and restating and reframing important gospel truths because we never know when that reframing or that repetition might be the one that enters with more force into the heart of someone. That’s striking me as something pretty significant to think about for teachers who might worry that, am I just repeating the same thing over and over? It might be that repetition that’s needed at that very day.

Hank Smith: 00:10:02 It might be the fifth, sixth time you get taught that principle, that wow, it hits you. And that’s happened for me before. I’m sure it’s happened for both of you.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:10:11 Yeah, and something about too, just the way it’s reframed or restated. Maybe that’s a way to think of James as well, is that a lot of these principles are principles we’re going to find other places in the scriptures. There is something memorable, really memorable about the language, about the way it’s set forth. I love that idea of hearing a lot of the Sermon on the Mount reframed and reinforced by so much that we find in this great book, this book that speaks to disciples.

Hank Smith: 00:10:36 Wonderful.

John Bytheway: 00:10:37 I like just the way that James says it. If you lack wisdom, it’s not if you lack stuff or fame or gold or the one thing that we know God has and wants to give: wisdom. So, I like to think of three different types of questions in the scriptures. There’s “got you” questions like from the scribes and Pharisees and maybe King Noah and the wicked priests that they’re not really about learning truth. They have a different motive. And then there’s I like to call them Google questions, where’s the nearest Five Guys? That’s a really important one. It’s just information, but this is a golden question that you lack wisdom. If any of you lack wisdom, Elder Bruce R. McConkie said this about James 1:5. If you ever need a strong statement, you can find one from Elder McConkie. He said, “This single verse of scripture has had a greater impact and a more far-reaching effect upon mankind than any other single sentence ever recorded by any prophet in any age.”

  00:11:39 Think about it. We’re all sitting here today because a teenage boy said a prayer which this verse, God made this verse to inspire him and to enter into his heart with such force that he went to ask, which is incredible. So, I like the way the manual started. This was the impetus that got us all sitting where we are today, which is pretty amazing and what an invitation for God to say, “You can ask and I’ll give you wisdom. There’s no guarantee of how and when and we can ask the brother of Jared about that, but we can ask and in his own way and time, he’ll help us become wise.”

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:12:13 Wonderful. That was really thought provoking. I love that this invitation to ask God is also coupled with a restatement about God’s nature to remember to ask because He gives liberally and because He upbraideth not. I think that makes that next line, “Let him ask in faith nothing wavering.” It’s a reminder that ask in faith because you can trust God. You can trust what kind of person He is, what kind of a being He is. He is the kind that gives liberally and upbraideth not. So, ask with that kind of faith that you are asking of this kind of loving God. As John said, the way James says it, I wonder if that’s part of it, is that reinforcement of the kind of God that we are asking these questions of that should I think instill some faith in us.

Hank Smith: 00:13:04 Yeah. What am I asking for and who am I asking. Both important questions.

John Bytheway: 00:13:10 That phrase, Ask in Faith, Elder Bednar gave a talk in April, 2008, General Conference and I loved this insight. He said, “Joseph’s questions focus not just on what he needed to know but also what was to be done.” His prayer was not simply which church is right. His question was, which church should I join, which was an action. So, Joseph went to the grove to ask in faith and he was determined to act. So, I’m glad you brought up that idea of asking in faith. I think Elder Bednar is telling us that it means I intend to act on the answer. There’s an action involved, not just I want to know something, but what do you want me to do, is that kind of a question.

Hank Smith: 00:13:51 As we’re getting started here, both of you, if you go to the RSC website, that’s the Religious Study Center, rsc.byu.edu, there’s a great article by Craig Manscill, great thinker at BYU, member of the religion department, and it’s called, “If Any of You Lack Wisdom: James’s Imperative to Israel”, and he gives a little background here that I found fascinating. He says most scholars agree that the letter is authored by James the Just, the brother of Jesus Christ. He references Galatians 1:19 for which the dispatch is titled. James occupied a prominent, if not chief place, in the church in Jerusalem, back to Galatians, this is 2:9. Conducted the first council and with the elders received Paul upon his return from his third missionary tour. He says, The Epistle of James is presumed to be one of the earliest letters written in the church. He talks about then all the social pressures of Rome and landless day laborers in the marketplaces and all sorts of problems in Israel when this is going on.

  00:14:52 And he says, “Caught up in these social tensions, the Jewish Christians eventually went to war.” Once understood in the context of this situation, James call for wisdom is essential to his argument. That is with wisdom from God, humankind may better cope with trials. And I didn’t know that as we lead into James here, that this isn’t just a letter written without context. There’s some social pressure going on and maybe some impending problems on the horizon that James is saying, “Okay, now that we’re facing this, let’s ask God for wisdom as we face this difficulty.” That adds a little bit to what we’re getting into.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:15:32 Yeah, well put. Both of those kind of scenarios within the church and what’s happening in maybe the wider context of the time. James was no stranger to having to sift through some contentious situations. I think his counsel about the way we speak to each other, the way we treat each other, that probably comes out of the crucible of real experience of dealing with conflict.

Hank Smith: 00:15:54 And that never occurs in the Lord’s kingdom, J.B.. There’s never contention or conflict. We never bump up against each other. What is it that John, that Elder Christofferson said, we often test each other with our idiosyncrasies.

John Bytheway: 00:16:07 Idiosyncrasies. And then he said, or what President Packer called, our idiot-syncrasies. That was that Why the Church talk. Great talk.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:16:16 Yeah. Can I pose a question for you guys that I’ve been thinking about? This is a verse that’s been on my mind and I think John, what you said earlier about acting in faith, I think this lines up really well with something we come later in chapter one of James. And it seems like although it’s not quite this straightforward, but it does seem like James in this first chapter lays out some of the things he’s going to be talking about in more depth later on, so we get these little glimpses at some important things so that may be one way to think of the structure of the book, but this one is another classic passage that I think just rings in all of our ears. It’s verse 22, “Be doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving your own self.” That just seems to run through James’ book and I love that so much, but it’s the next verse that I’ve been thinking about a lot.

  00:17:00 I’m not sure there’s maybe a clear cut interpretation of this verse 23, “For if any, be a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass for he beholdeth or like a mirror. For he beholdeth himself and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty and continueth therein. He being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” And so I’ve been thinking of that comparison. Why would a hearer of the word be like someone who looks at themselves in the mirror and then leaves and forgetting. What is James trying to make us think of there?

Hank Smith: 00:17:44 I find myself very frustrated with myself when I go to a meeting or I go to the temple or I listen to a message in general conference and it impacts me heavily and I’m really looking at myself and saying, “Wow, there’s some things I can improve on there. Some things I’m doing well.” This is so good for me and I feel so full of the Spirit, I feel ready to make some changes and then it’s like I hear and forget. I get back into life. I think J.B. in your talk, the Wrestle with Comparisons, back into the pressure cooker, I think you said, of life that’s frustrating for me that I can hear and I forget. I can actually look in the mirror, see some things that I really want to change and things that I really like, I want to improve on, that I go back into Monday morning and almost forget everything I heard. I bet there’s some listeners out there who can say, “Yeah, why do we forget?” Why do we look in that mirror and then forget and move on? John, what do you think?

John Bytheway: 00:18:43 Well, that’s right where I went, “For he beholdeth himself.” He sees things as they really are when he heard the word, but then “goeth his way,” Maybe if I emphasize his, “and straightway forgetteth,” so that is the nature of all of us, to forget. What’s the famous Spencer W. Kimball statement? He said, “When you look in the dictionary for the most important word, do you know what it is? It could be remember.” And then he talks about the sacrament and the priest saying always remember. Maybe that’s it, Hank. One way to look at it anyway is our tendency to forget so quickly things that we know. Maybe and we forget because we didn’t do. We heard it, but we didn’t do. What are you thinking, J.B.?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:19:24 I think our minds are all going to the same place. I think that’s right. It’s interesting. I’ve been thinking about that mirror component of it and I wonder how often the mirror experiences sort of to check ourselves out and make sure that we’re presentable, or did you fix a few things that we see there and then we leave and thankfully most of the times we forget that. I don’t think this is encouraging any prolonged vanity, but it’s like you’re almost satisfied like, “Okay, I’m put together enough,” and then you leave maybe for the day. I’m just interested by this contrast in verse 25, “But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty.” I wonder if in this parallel setup that the law becomes a better mirror.

  00:20:07 So, are we measuring against what we’re seeing and we’re like, “Well, I’m self-satisfied and put together decently,” and then we don’t have that constant mirror with us. And I love this phrase, “law of liberty” that James used a couple of times and this idea that the law frees us, that the law is going to be liberating if we measure ourselves against that. Somehow that’s our replacement mirror. Does that affect us differently? Does that prompt us to say, Okay, what can I be doing more?” Like Hank said, we’re not just leaving from seeing ourselves so clearly and then forgetting, but then somehow that law is reminding us we have that mirror with us at all times. I’m not sure. It’s an intriguing passage to me. What does it mean to, “whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty and continueth therein, being not a forgetful hearer,” you know?

John Bytheway: 00:20:54 That phrase of “forgetful hearer” isn’t that a… Boy am I that? Hear and I forget.

Hank Smith: 00:21:02 I have a goal to be more mindful and I would love that constant sign in my right here to be more mindful because what I’ll do is I’ll go through a whole day and realize I wasn’t mindful today. How did that happen? And I would love to have that, like you’re saying, J.B., that constant mirror that I can say, “Oh yeah, I want to live this law.” I want to live this way. So, I’ve always said, couldn’t there be something on our new watches that we have that lights up and says, “You’re being prideful right now.” “Oh, okay. Thank you.”

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:21:33 Yeah, that’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:21:34 Something to check myself against all this.

John Bytheway: 00:21:36 An app.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:21:37 Yeah, that’s beautiful. Yeah, right. I think that’s what it seems like. This idea of what could be a better way of checking ourselves or a better way to think of. I mean, maybe it’s these next two fantastic verses. “If any man among you seem to be religious,” as verse 26, “and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows and their affliction and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” Maybe James is saying these are the liberating law reminders. How are you doing in your speech? Are you paying attention to the widows and the fatherless? Are you doing your best to stay unspotted from the world? Maybe these are the kinds of checks we can measure ourselves against.

Hank Smith: 00:22:22 Yeah. There’s a contemporary English version of verse 26. “If you think you’re being religious but you can’t control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, your religion is useless.” That’s one of those mirror. Whoa, okay. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:22:38 Whenever you see something that’s going to define pure religion, you’re like, “Oh, I probably ought to know what that is.” “Pure religion, undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit.” If you stop right there, you’ve got the idea of ministering, of being aware of people. What’s going on with people, and I heard somebody say it might’ve been Keith Wilson on one of those older BYU Roundtable Discussions saying that this looks like love God and love your neighbor, but in a reverse order. It looks like the two great commandments. To love your neighbor is to visit the fatherless, the widows in their affliction and love God, keep yourself unspotted from the world. I thought that was an interesting insight to look at the great commandments right in there.

  00:23:27 One time I got excited about being spotless, unspotted, and started looking up all of those words. This idea of how to keep yourself unspotted from the world and the world’s such an influence now, but the last phrase on the title page of the Book of Mormon, is that “ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ,” that’s on the title page and in the second to last verse of the Book of Mormon, that “ye become holy without spot”. And then here, how do we become unspotted? Love God, love your neighbor.

  00:24:05 One time I was going up to Idaho, do you guys remember know your religion? You were probably little boys back then, both of you, but I stopped at a Taco Bell and the foil thing that my burrito was on top, it had a hole in it and I spilled all over my khaki slacks. I had a new understanding of the embarrassment of being spotted-

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:24:27 Being spotted.

John Bytheway: 00:24:28 … standing in front of a group and having a big stain on my slacks. That’s all I could think about at the time. I’m in the lavatory trying to clean off my pants and everything. I don’t know. It kind of brought home that idea of standing before God being spotted and how I didn’t want that.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:24:45 Yeah, I think Terry Warner and others have talked about this idea of self-deception and how dangerous that is. And when I read these verses this time, an image from literature that just came into my mind was Mrs. St. Clare from Uncle Tom’s Cabin. So, many incredible things from that book. But Mrs. St. Clare is someone who maybe as clearly as any character in any book I’ve read, who always feels the victim. And the thing that makes her such a tragic character is her own little daughter, who’s this angel, Evangeline, dies and yet during her suffering and sickness, all Mrs. St. Clare is thinking about is herself and how people aren’t paying attention to her. And she has no sympathy for Uncle Tom and she’s always worried about, “Dude, are you even thinking about how this affects me?” And it was so striking because I thought, how does one know if you’re a Mrs. St. Clare where you are deceiving yourself. You think that you’re righteous, you think you’re virtuous, and you’re always the victim, when in reality it is so obvious that you’re deceiving yourself.

  00:25:47 I’ve worried about that. And so, I wonder if James has given us the answer to say back to that kind of mirror image. I mean, she may look in the mirror and say, “Why doesn’t everyone understand how badly I have it? Why doesn’t everyone understand how much trouble I have?” When in reality if she or if we would measure ourselves against, “Am I visiting the fatherless and the widows? Am I bridling my tongue?” Maybe that’s a way to check to say, “Am I the Mrs. St. Clare who’s deceiving myself when I think it’s all about me,” and in reality, I’m the one who is being a hearer of the word and not a doer. That she to me is the classic example of deceiving ourselves in this sort of self-satisfied way. And maybe that’s the way we check ourselves is, am I visiting, ministering? Maybe that’s the guard against it.

John Bytheway: 00:26:35 And I think it’s nice it comes after being a doer. He’s talking about things that you do, not just things that you know, but he’s talking about a doing kind of gospel. Being out there and visiting.

Hank Smith: 00:26:47 Both of you will remember, I’m sure, Marvin J. Ashton. John, you’ll probably remember him more than J.B. and I.

John Bytheway: 00:26:55 I have a picture with Elder Ashton in my mission and he came to visit us in the Philippines when I was a 19-year-old.

Hank Smith: 00:27:02 That’s fantastic. I remember seeing him on the wall at seminary. I remember that specifically.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:27:08 I see, I’m much older than Hank. So Hank, you’re nice to think of me as young as you, but so that’s nice.

Hank Smith: 00:27:13 Yeah. He gave a talk way back in 1982 called Pure Religion, taking it right out of James 1:27. He says, “One who practices pure religion soon discovers it is more rewarding to lift a man up than to hold him down. Happiness is bound up with helpfulness. Those who fail to protect someone’s good name, who take advantage of the innocent or uninformed, who build a fortune by pretending godliness to manipulate others are missing the joy of practicing pure religion.” He goes on to say, “Recently I visited with a bishop who has in his ward more than 60 widows.” He beamed, “I love them all.” At least once a week he and his counselors visit them in addition to the calls made by their home teachers.

  00:27:59 “They are the joys of our lives,” he repeated. He might’ve said, “Don’t you think we have more than our fair share?” He goes on and just talks about pure religion. He says, “The business of lifting each other is a full-time occupation. Pure religion can never be taught or lived by those who are petty, prejudiced, contentious, or unresponsive to the needs of their fellow men. Pure religion is following the teachings of the Savior.” So, wow, let’s get moving. When I read these philosophy verses of James, I want to get up and do something, go visit someone, go help someone out.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:28:38 What a great word in that Elder Ashton passage, petty. Oh, I think pettiness speaks to a lot of this. That’s really good. That’s really good.

Hank Smith: 00:28:46 Yeah. Now, before we get out of chapter one here, J.B., I can’t let you go if we’re not going to talk about Joseph Smith. You are a scriptural expert. But John, what J.B. knows about church history is phenomenal. We’ve said this before, John, what LeBron James is to basketball, J.B. Haws is to church history. He knows his stuff. So, I think our audience would like to hear your thoughts on James 1:5 and what happened there in Joseph Smith history, J.B.. We shouldn’t just go over this verse and say, “Oh, I think Joseph Smith read that one.” I think there’s some depth here.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:29:22 Oh yeah, so much so and I think John’s, the quotes that he talked about, the impact the Elder McConkie quote, the impact of the global eternal impact of this verse reaching Joseph Smith. I think this is a place to reinforce that Joseph Smith is such an important model for all of us on what to do when we’re seeking. It’s worth thinking about just how deep his felt need was as we collated and thanks to the great historical work in Joseph Smith papers as we’re collating his accounts of the first vision. And we think about what we’re learning with a little more depth about how long he’d been wrestling with these questions that he starts thinking about them as a 12-year-old.

  00:30:04 And so, he’s thinking about them at least a couple of years before his first vision experience really that there are two main issues going on and the one that he highlights in the first account that we have is he’s thinking that, how do I find forgiveness for my sins? How do I find salvation when there are just so many confusing, sometimes contradictory messages that he’s hearing, when the Bible is being interpreted in different ways? I think all of us can relate to that soul anguish and this verse is the thing that breaks through those clouds. When you come to the Bible, to the scriptures, with that kind of hunger, I think that one of the things about Joseph Smith’s testimony is that the scriptures can fill that need. As he says, “There’s no other place that I could go, no other recourse.” This verse reminded him that he could go to the source. Joseph Smith I think becomes a model for all of us when we’re in those soul anguish moments and that the message of the restoration is that we can ask God.

John Bytheway: 00:31:03 I love that he used the word wisdom and if you lack information, sure ask of Google. But if you lack wisdom, if you want to know things as they really are, which is that beautiful definition of truth from, was it Section 93 and Jacob 4:13 in the Book of Mormon, things as they really are, that’s wisdom. Then you know the source for that. I like that this is he uses the word or translated as the word of wisdom, things as they really are.

Hank Smith: 00:31:32 Yeah, we just talked about acting, religion acting. Go visit the fatherless and the widows. Go do something with what you’ve heard. When you look in the mirror, remember what you saw and go out and do something. And I think Joseph does that same thing. He talks about reading the scripture and this will be language that most of our listeners just love. He says, while I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James 1:15 which reads, and I’m sure there’s some listeners just speaking along with me here, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. That giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given him.” Then he writes, “Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of men than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force in every feeling of my heart.”

  00:32:30 Oh man, you guys, I would love for everyone to experience that with any verse of scripture. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did. For how to act, I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know. For the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently, it destroyed all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. At length, I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion or else I must do as James directs. I like that I must do as James directs, that is ask of God. So, he says, “I retired to the woods to make the attempt.” A combining of James chapter one here is act, move, do something because if Joseph reads the verse, thinks, wow, that’s powerful and then goes back to life and nothing happens. When you read and something hits you, act.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:33:33 Yeah, nice connection. Hank, I really like that. These phrases came to the determination to ask of God or verse 14, “My determination to ask of God.” I think that’s really excellent to think about the doing nature of this that he let this work on him to the point of doing and how can we get more of that? How can we get more conclusions? How can we get more determinations to do what we are initially prompted to do with the thing that enters into our heart? How do we follow through with that determination or in verse 16 of Joseph Smith history, “Exerting all my powers to call upon God.” That kind of doing the strength of that, that’s really good. That’s a deal of great connections.

Hank Smith: 00:34:16 Yeah, I’m happy that Joseph Smith didn’t live in the Google world because maybe he reads that verse and then he Googles it and finds out everything he can about it, and then doesn’t have the patience to get the wisdom from God. Like John said, I can get all the information I need and that is tempting to think information is wisdom.

John Bytheway: 00:34:37 Yeah, and that’s the scary part too is if you ask Google or Siri anything, they’ll give you an answer and there’s a chance it might even be true. I remember Sheri Dew just phrasing this so well. “Go to sources that only speak truth.” and I thought, oh, I love the way she put that. There are a lot of sources that will tell you something, but what are the sources that only speak truth? Great way that she put that.

Hank Smith: 00:35:04 Maybe it’s our impatience, J.B.. Information is fast, especially today. Wisdom is the slow process of, especially wisdom from God, right?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:35:15 Oh yeah, that’s really good. That’s making me think of a couple other places in James as the theme comes up that in relation to some trials or tests that we’re facing and about this idea of endurance. James speaks about that as a quality of discipleship is this ability to endure. So, maybe there’s something about that too with patience of holding on in that waiting and that timing but not giving up, not stopping the seeking, not stopping the quest.

Hank Smith: 00:35:41 Joseph describes laboring under extreme difficulty by this, but patient enough, like you said, this started when he was much younger than 14 and just waiting and patiently letting that wisdom from God distill and oftentimes it’s very slow.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:36:00 That’s right. To keep at it, to keep thinking, to keep studying, to keep reading until that ray of light does break through until the verse that enters into our hearts with more power or more force hits us till we find that. That’s a great concept.

John Bytheway: 00:36:16 Just the fact that this verse was in there, I’m sure you’ve both heard the story about Martin Luther who characterized the Book of James as an epistle full of straw because it didn’t emphasize the grace that he had come to learn about and love as so much because James emphasized works a little more and he, from what I’ve heard, didn’t want to include it. So, we’re kind of glad it was in there.

Hank Smith: 00:36:39 Yeah, we’re kind of glad.

John Bytheway: 00:36:41 For Joseph to read that.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:36:42 Yeah, that’s great. If you think about the story of canonization, just the miracle and the providence that this is even part of the canon. That’s a great thought.

Hank Smith: 00:36:51 We often don’t tie verse six to Joseph Smith, but it does fit. “Let him ask in faith nothing wavering.” What did you say, J.B.? Exerted all my powers to call upon God. That sounds like nothing wavering, “For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.” And of all the descriptions of Joseph Smith, I would not describe him wavering like a ship in the sea from the first vision on. I knew it. “I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it.”

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:37:24 Yeah, that’s great. I think this verse is… holds such a special place of regard in our minds and hearts because of all these reasons. I mean, this was a launching point, a trigger point for so much as one of you said so. Well, the reason we’re here, it just makes us appreciate the scriptural authors who put the pen to paper and followed the promptings that came to them and working into miraculous ways into God’s plan.

Hank Smith: 00:37:51 J.B., we have you here, we’re talking about Joseph Smith. Tell us what you’ve learned about Joseph Smith through how many decades now of studying church history.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:38:02 One of the best pieces of advice, and this has come from a number of people in a number of ways, don’t study church history too little. In other words, keep going, keep reading, keep doing more. A number of great thinkers on this have pointed out that too often, we stop too early. That’s such great advice. Don’t study church history too little because the more we study, the more we research, the more we go right at concerns or things that we find that are unexpected, the more we dig in, that always goes well. I’m taken with something that Richard Bushman said in his great little book, On the Road with Joseph Smith.

  00:38:37 He wrote this book, An Author’s Diary, about his experiences of the first six months after Rough Stone Rolling was published and he’s going around and speaking and he responded to some questions that came to him from a Latter-day Saint who just wrote in with some questions about Joseph Smith and Richard Bushman’s great advice is this, first of all, that don’t stop digging. Don’t stop searching. Don’t stop reading. Read more. That’s going to always be a benefit. But then he also said to do this in the Latter-day Saint way, we’ll want to live in a way that we have the Spirit with us because spiritual things are only understood by the Spirit.

  00:39:11 It’s impossible to understand Joseph Smith’s life without understanding things of the Spirit. You’ve got to be doing both of those things at the same time. This great mix of by study and by faith and then Richard Bushman’s closing line was, “After all of these years of studying Joseph’s life, I believe more than ever.” And that’s what has impressed me is that over and over again as I associate with people who devoted so much of their lives to studying church history is that that is played out again and again that those who come to know Joseph Smith’s story and experiences and are doing it in this Latter-day Saint way were trying to understand things of the Spirit. This deeper study just reinforces, I echo that same phrase, “I believe now more than ever.”

Hank Smith: 00:39:58 Beautiful.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:39:59 Let me read you this passage from Richard Bushman. So, this is a letter that he published in his book, On the Road with Joseph Smith, in response to this question that asked this same question about how should I think about this, how should I study this church history, the life and ministry of Joseph Smith? He talks about begin the fearlessness. Don’t study too little to really make sure you get your sources right and that’s such a key thing. Make sure you really are source critical as you’re trying to get the best information.

  00:40:24 And then here’s this a really powerful passage. Here’s Richard Bushman, “If you’re going to do all this in the Latter-day Saint way, you will also put your trust in that spirit that leadeth to do good.” Isn’t that a great reference to spirit that leadeth to do good? You will ask what are the consequences of these beliefs? Have they resulted in good in your own life and the lives of others you have known? If they have, then you want to treat them with respect. As with science, a religion that works and produces results has to be taken seriously. Others might give you other advice, but this has worked for me after all of these years of studying Joseph’s life, I believe more than ever.

Hank Smith: 00:41:02 For both of you, I want to read something from Robert Millet and he’s going to quote Wilford Woodruff here and he’s going to quote B.H. Roberts. And I’d like you to both maybe comment on what you think of this before we move on from this topic. Wilford Woodruff observed, “There is not so great a man as Joseph standing in this generation. Many look upon him and he is like a bed of gold concealed from human view. They know not his principles, his spirit, his wisdom, his virtues, his philanthropy nor his calling. His mind like Enoch expands as eternity and only God can comprehend his soul.”

  00:41:41 Brother Millet goes on and says, “Many attack the historicity or the antiquity of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham. There’s many’s efforts to sow doubt and discord in regard to this or that teaching or practice in our history and of course it has entailed and will yet entail attempts both vicious and subtle to malign the name and labors of Joseph Smith.” He said in the words of Elder B.H. Roberts, “Joseph Smith claimed for himself no special sanctity, no faultless life, no perfection of character, no inerrancy for every work spoken by him, and he did not claim these things for himself so can they not be claimed for him by others. Yet to Joseph Smith was given access to the mind of deity through the revelations of God to him.”

  00:42:29 A little bit more, Brother Millet says, “In our day, it is fashionable to stress the humanity and weaknesses of Joseph Smith and his successors to cast aspersions on their motives or character and to reveal historical details, the context and true meanings of which are often lacking. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith cannot be with us now to answer all the charges against him.” I’ve always thought it’s always easy to bully people who are-

John Bytheway: 00:42:52 Somebody who’s not here.

Hank Smith: 00:42:54 … who is not here. Yeah, because they can’t answer for themselves. And then Brother Millet finishes with, “I am bold to testify that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of the living God.”

John Bytheway: 00:43:06 I love that. Many times on this podcast we’ve quoted Elder Holland saying all that God has ever had to work with is imperfect people and it must be incredibly frustrating to him, but he deals with it. I love that episode in church history where the brethren thought they could write something better than the prophet Joseph or they thought he was stumbling over his words or something. And let me just read, this is section 67:5 of the Doctrine and Covenants. “Your eyes have been upon my servant Joseph Smith Jr. and his language you have known and his imperfections you have known.” And I feel like the Lord’s saying, in other words, you’re focused on the wrong thing. If you’re looking for imperfections you can find them. And I think today we’ve never heard any of today’s church leaders say they were perfect and far from it.

  00:43:55 In fact, most of the time I feel inadequate to this calling and if they ever did say they were perfect, then we might have something to talk about if they said they were perfect. But the question is not are the living prophets perfect, but are the living prophets being led by Christ? And that’s why I think the Lord’s saying you’re focusing on the wrong thing. We know that Peter began to sink only when he took his eyes off Christ and focused on the wind and the waves and Jesus was constantly correcting Peter. And the question is not was Peter perfect? The question was, was Peter being taught and led and tutored and corrected by Christ?

  00:44:31 And I think the same thing we could say for Joseph Smith as we read the Doctrine and Covenants, how many times does it say thy sins are forgiven thee? And he was being tutored and corrected and chastised by the Lord all the time, but who was leading him? And that maybe becomes a better question. He was led by Christ.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:44:50 Such great thoughts from both of you. These just ring true in my heart. I think of Brigham Young’s classic quote about feeling like shouting hallelujah all the time when he thinks that he knew the prophet Joseph Smith. I mean, that says something really profound about their close association but his deep feelings. And I feel that too. It just feels like hallelujah to think about all the things that have come through the revelations that came to the prophet Joseph Smith and that he was this instrument to open our minds to eternity and to point us to the Savior Jesus Christ in unprecedented ways and to restore covenants and ordinances that can connect us.

  00:45:27 I love his own humility, the recognizing his own limitations. And yet that did not stop him from being a doer of the word is that he knew what he had seen and he knew that God knew what he had seen as he says so powerfully and he went forward. And I think he is a model for all of us when we’re seeking to be disciples and seeking to know what God would have us do. And I feel like shouting hallelujah all the time when I think about the Lord using the prophet Joseph Smith to bless us with these things.

John Bytheway: 00:45:55 Each of us ask each other to extend grace to us when we mess up. And can we please extend that same to Joseph who’s not here to speak for himself. If we have questions, I remember one of our podcast guests, Hank, don’t you? saying, “Well, I guess we’ll just ask him one day about this or that. But in the meantime I want people to extend grace and forgiveness to me. I’m going to extend it to him and maybe one day we’ll get more.” But in the meantime, it’s not like another guest said that you know too much about Joseph Smith. It’s that you just don’t know enough.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:46:28 Yeah, I love that bed of gold quote that Hank referenced too. That’s right. It’s worth mining and worth trying to figure it out and to appreciate the depth and richness and treasure that’s there.

Hank Smith: 00:46:40 And I often tell my students if they have a concern or something and James says it here in verse four, “Let patience have her perfect work.” I tell them I’m okay waiting until I can hear it from him. Like I would any good friend who’d been maligned in some way, I’ll wait to hear it from them. The one who was there. J.B., I don’t think Joseph would mind if we got back to James. So, where do you want to go next? Do we want to stay in chapter one a little longer or do you want to move on?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:47:09 Well, there is so much good stuff. One of the great things about reading scripture is that we read it in our current context and I think verses one through seven of chapter two, which are just straightforward, such powerful verses about favoritism and just think the human tendency to treat the rich and powerful differently than we treat the poor and less powerful. I must admit this time reading it through, I just couldn’t help but read social media into verses one through seven. This is just something that’s been on my mind. I’m confident on the mind of so many of us just listen to these verses when you think of the social media context. So, here’s verse one.

  00:47:45 “My brethren have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory with respective persons. For if they’re coming to your assembly, a man with a gold ring in goodly apparel and they’ll come in also a poor man in vile raiment and you have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing and saying to him, ‘Sit down here in a good place,’ and say to the poor, ‘Stand, thou there or sit here under my footstool. Are you not then partial in yourselves and are become judges of evil thoughts?” I just am thinking about how social media, among all other kinds of human interactions, just encourages this behavior.

  00:48:18 Verse five, “Hearken my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world, rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to them that love him, but you have despised the poor.” I think about so much what President Nelson is just calling our attention to about this idea, and we can say more about this when James talks about speech, but it’s worth saying here is that so much of our discipleship can be determined by how we treat other people.

  00:48:42 And then this next line was probably the line that hit me the most about social media. “Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?” You think about rich and influencers and the people whose likes we care about and that they’re drawing us before the court of public opinion and just constantly judging us. Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which you are called?” If you fulfill the royal law, and this idea, I think this is such a great phrase, “the royal law,” the law that pertains to the kingdom. If we belong to the kingdom of God, what is our law? “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself ye do well.”

  00:49:24 Now, I just thought about how easy it is to worry about the rich and when they call us before the judgment seats and call us in the court of public opinion and that we want to court their favor and how careful I need to be to ask myself, am I living the royal law, the law of the kingdom? Do I love my neighbors as myself?

John Bytheway: 00:49:46 Well, you’re talking when you’re comparing this to social media, you’re thinking of those out there in the cyberspace that are considered smart and wise and influencers that we are looking at them differently than humble.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:50:02 Yeah, and maybe the interesting thing is that it causes us to be different. I hear him saying to me, “You have to be careful.” You have to guard against being different based on who you’re associating with so that if you see someone with the gold ring on their finger and you treat them differently than you treat someone who has different kind of apparel, different standing, than you’ve missed the mark. You’re not living the royal law. So, whatever the gold ring on the finger looks like in social media, do we find ourselves being different because we’re trying to curry favor with someone rather than being ourselves throughout. And that is a disciple who lives the royal law and we’re going to love our neighbors as ourselves and not be different based on who is watching us, who might be judging us, who might be commenting on the way we’re living. And that’s a tough one. Can we be consistent and not be different based on who we’re associating with?

John Bytheway: 00:50:57 That’s the phrase James uses in 1:8, “A double-minded man,” are we different with maybe we say two-faced today. But I’ll be this way with you, but I’m going to be this way with you. I’m double-minded.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:51:10 And when you bring up double-minded that comes up a couple places. And then another place James references Elijah as another great example of the effect of prayer. But double-minded makes me think of Elijah. His question when he’s talking with the children of Israel and he asks them, how long can you halt between two opinions?

John Bytheway: 00:51:27 Two opinions. Yeah.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:51:28 This idea of jumping back and forth and his call, decide where your loyalty lies, decide who’s going to have your loyalty. I love that idea of two-faced, double-minded, halting between two opinions.

John Bytheway: 00:51:40 Make up your mind. Yeah.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:51:42 Yeah, right.

Hank Smith: 00:51:43 Years ago, many years ago, I went with my father-in-law to a commercial building that he owned and he said, “We need to wash the windows.” It was a big beautiful commercial building. Lots of businesses had rented out spaces there. I remember specifically as we’re out there washing the windows of this building, someone from one of the businesses came out. He was just very rude to us who were out there washing the windows of this building telling us to move out of the way and that we couldn’t be there, and it was really bothering him what we were doing. And then the owner of the building, my father-in-law, walked around the corner and he said, “Hi.” And he saw the guy and man did his tone change when he realized that we were the family of the owner of the building and all of a sudden he became very kind and nice and wanting to get to know us more. And I’ve always remembered that and that reminds me of that. Isn’t that what he’s saying here, J.B., is we treat people differently based on how we assume where their station is?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:52:48 What a great story to bring that to life. There’s an interesting verse in Alma 32 that I love this part of the Alma 32 story, Alma teaching and the Zoramites and teaching turning towards the poor group that had been cast out. And then he says this interesting thing in verse 24 and 25, “And now my beloved brethren, as ye have desired to know of me what ye shall do because ye are afflicted and cast out.” And then this parenthetical statement, “Now I do not desire that ye should suppose that I mean to judge you only according to that which is true.” It’s so interesting that Alma says, I don’t want you to think I’m only judging you based on what is true. In other words, a lot of times we say, yeah, we should judge people based on what is true. But Alma says, I can hear him saying, “I’m going to do more than judge you on what is true.”

  00:53:33 So, the obvious thing is you’re poor and outcast, but I’m going to think of you more than just what I can see. And then he says, “For I do not mean that ye all of you have been compelled to humble yourselves.” It’s almost like saying, I’m going to do more than judge based on what I can see. I’m going to assume the best about you. I’ve always thought what a call to all of us to judge beyond what is just true, what we can just see, but to think the best of people beyond what we can see, beyond what is true. What is obviously true.

Hank Smith: 00:54:04 J.B., something I’ve always loved about you is kind of brought up here. You do treat everyone like a celebrity. I love that about you, and I think we’re getting to the heart of what James said here, and I really hope everyone’s really listening to this thinking. Do I do that? Do I think, oh, there’s so-and-so. Wow, I need to be super respectful and I want to change my behavior so they really look at me and I can measure up in their eyes. We don’t treat the usher the same way we do the performer.

John Bytheway: 00:54:38 I think of a story, Stephen Covey told a lesson he learned from his mom, I hope I’m getting this right, for the Covey family out there. He was with a non-church group, but he talked about being on an elevator. I think it sounded like the church office building and that his mother was talking to some person that was like an employee of cleaning the building or something. And the way Stephen Covey put it, a prominent person came in the elevator, a very prominent person came in the elevator.

  00:55:09 His mother was so focused on this person who was cleaning, giving them all the attention that they wanted at that time. He said, if I recall, it just taught him about not being a respecter of persons. She gave that person just as much attention as this very prominent person who got in the elevator, whoever that was. So, that sounds like the story that you told too, Hank.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:55:32 I think about this all the time and it just gets the call that this coming to all of us that we’re all struggling with this. James is both saying, don’t be this kind of person, a double-minded, and who shows favoritism, but also be so aware of being affected by that kind of person too. That’s maybe as hard as anything right now is to be careful of not letting it affect us when as James says, the rich men drag you before the judgment seats. I mean, to be really careful to let that slide off our backs. It’s easy to feel like everything that we do is being judged and being evaluated. We’re living our whole life on in a performance way. And I hear James saying, “Let that go.” Let that go. Don’t you treat people that way and if you are treated that way, don’t worry about that. You still are, the law of the kingdom is, the royal law is to love thy neighbor as thyself.

John Bytheway: 00:56:24 In the institute manual, it says, “Royal means belonging to the king.” This teaching parallels Jesus’ command, to love thy Lord thy God, and to love thy neighbor as thyself. Those who keep the royal law, love everyone and avoid showing favoritism. So, royal means belonging to the king and I think the king here being Christ.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:56:42 Yeah. I think that’s such a great way of thinking. If we want to be part of the kingdom, we live the royal law, the law that governs the kingdom.

Hank Smith: 00:56:51 I bet both of you could quote this better than me, but isn’t it C.S. Lewis who said, “We live in a society of possible gods and goddesses.”

John Bytheway: 00:57:00 Yeah. You’ve never met a mere mortal.

Hank Smith: 00:57:02 Yeah. Even the most dull, uninteresting person may be a being one day that you’ll be tempted to worship, right?

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:57:09 Mm-hmm.

Hank Smith: 00:57:10 And that can help us, I think, in our actions with others. One quote that’s always stuck with me, I don’t even know who said it. We will attribute it to John Bytheway. John Bytheway, once said, “You can tell a lot about a person by how they treat those who can do nothing for them.”

John Bytheway: 00:57:27 Do them no good. Mm-hmm.

Hank Smith: 00:57:28 I’m just interacting with a person who can’t give me a promotion, who can’t offer me anything. How do I interact with the person who can’t benefit me? Do I treat them in the same way as someone who could really benefit me, my boss, someone with a lot of money?

John Bytheway: 00:57:44 We’ve heard a lot lately from President Nelson about identity and things, and what I love about that is it’s not only understanding who we are, but when we understand who we’re surrounded by, we’re going to treat them differently. And that’s what C.S. Lewis was saying, that everybody’s got this same identity and we have to treat each other with some respect because we know who we are and we know who they are too.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:58:05 This is one thing I love about this conversation and it just shows how good James is, that so many of these points interlace with other points throughout his epistle, James 3:9, when he is talking about bridling the tongue and this tongue of angels, I then, this is 3:9. “Therewith bless we God, even the Father, and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.” I think that C.S. Lewis idea lines up so well right there is how would we do differently if we just were constantly thinking, this person with whom I’m interaction is created in the image of God. This person is in the similitude of God and his or her potential. How could I do anything else but try to bless them?

Hank Smith: 00:58:46 I’ve read a story once about a Latter-day Saint Bishop who dressed up as a homeless man and sat outside his ward and just saw how people treated him, and he learned quite a bit and the one thing he said he learned was it was the people who wouldn’t even make eye contact. “I felt like I was invisible. I wasn’t actually there.” And he said, “I learned a lot about that, about human dignity, about acknowledging even the presence of someone.”

Dr. J.B. Haws: 00:59:15 I think one of the things you’ve identified both really well is that anonymity may be one of our biggest current problems is so often we feel like we are having these interactions anonymously and that there really aren’t personal stakes involved. And I hear President Nelson calling us out of that place of unawareness that that cannot be the way of someone who’s trying to live the royal laws. We cannot think in anonymous terms and that we can swoop in and say something snarky and swoop out and no harm done. I just hear James saying, how can we use the same mouth to curse those that are created in the image of God? But that anonymity idea has also been on my mind.

Hank Smith: 00:59:54 Yeah, I can make up a social media profile. You don’t know who I am. I can now say whatever I want. Same thumbs that bear testimony is the same thumbs I’m using to pull down, just try to hurt, try to wound a creation of God. Wow.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 01:00:12 Let’s continue looking at chapter three. We see some nice thematic parallels when James is talking about the tongue. These great analogies about small things, and they have some great resonances in some of the things that Joseph Smith wrote in the Doctrine and Covenants, but bits in the horse’s mouth, the rudders on large ships, these small rudders, this is verse five, “Even so the tongue is a little member and boasteth with great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!”

  01:00:40 I have to say, an experience that’s really touching to me after Elder Holland gave his Tongue of Angels talk, and we have to just highlight that again, we’ve already mentioned it, and he gave such a powerful exhortation, I think, connected to this. A few months later, I was at my parents’ house picking up something and I had to go down into my parents’ closet to find something that I was grabbing and I walked in. My dad had, he had this talk photocopied and posted on his dresser. It was just one of those moments that spoke to me about this idea of continued discipleship. I thought it was a nice visual way of representing not being a hearer only, but being a doer. And my dad wanted to be reminded of this on a daily basis.

John Bytheway: 01:01:33 And Hank that was April, 2007.

Hank Smith: 01:01:36 Yep. J.B., like I said earlier, I need to say it again. I was out mowing the lawn. I was listening to the Saturday session of General Conference, just listening as I’m going along, I got my headphones in and I remember this talk filled me. It filled me with the spirit. It filled me with a desire to do better. I laughed a couple because of Elder Holland’s style. He gives you a couple of funny quips, but then he gets back into it. I remember when he called it a full family affair, the way husbands talk to wives, the way wives talk to husbands, the way we talk to our children. It was a life changer for me. Really fun to hear that was for your dad as well.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 01:02:16 This should be a signal for all of us to reread and re-listen to that talk. That is for me.

Hank Smith: 01:02:21 I’m guessing your dad didn’t struggle with that.

Dr. J.B. Haws: 01:02:26 My dad was an amazing, amazing guy. One of my heroes. I appreciated the fact that he wanted to do better, that at least something about this way, he wanted to have that reminder. He wasn’t satisfied and that was what was perhaps most touching to me.

John Bytheway: 01:02:44 Please join us for part two of this podcast.