Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Matt Grey, Hebrews 1 through 6.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:00:06 We move on to kind of the second major segment now of the book, and that is having just argued that Jesus is superior to the angels, we now need to show that Jesus is superior to Moses. That’s going to be the theme of chapter 3 and the first part of our chapter 4. So here we are chapter 3, verse 1, “Wherefore, holy brothers and sisters, partakers of the heavenly calling, let’s think about this apostle, the sent one and the High Priest of our profession, Jesus Christ.” Another beautiful term, title that will be explored later in the book. “But now let’s talk about Moses, who was faithful to him that appointed him, as Moses was faithful in all of his house.” Chapter 3 goes on to say Moses was a faithful servant in God’s house.

  00:00:49 So if we envision the community as a house that was built for God’s people, for God’s children, Moses was a faithful servant in that house and we value that. We appreciate that. We love Moses, but Jesus is the Son who will inherit the house. Jesus is the heir to the estate. So how much superior, how much better would it be to follow the heir of the estate than one of the household servants? And that’s the metaphor that the author will use to assert that Jesus is in fact superior to Moses.

  00:01:17 And you can read in chapter 3 verses 2 through 6 about this house imagery. Moses truly was a faithful servant in the house and we value him for that, but verse 6, “But Christ as a Son over the house, whose house we are, if we listen to the servant, how much more important is it to listen to the heir of the estate?” It’s kind of a similar line of thinking with the angels in chapters 1 and 2, but now it’s applying it to Moses. It does seem to be telling this audience, we just don’t need to rely on the law of Moses anymore. If you’re feeling drawn to those old Pentateuchal structures and laws and that old Torah-based framework, we have the Son now and we can now separate from that, which again, this is reading a little bit different than Paul. Paul had a bit of a different approach on the Torah, where the Torah was very much alive and well in the lives of the Jewish covenant for Paul, but this author seems to be saying, it’s time to move on because now we have something superior. We have Jesus.

Hank Smith: 00:02:10 Wow. This is great. It’s really fun to be able to just understand what the author is trying to do. When I took this on my own, I was like, “Okay, there’s some great one-liners, but seeing this in this way, it’s an argument.”

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:02:25 It is.

Hank Smith: 00:02:26 He’s laying out a case.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:02:28 He’s laying out a case. It’s a great way to put it.

John Bytheway: 00:02:30 This might not have made sense to the Gentile converts. Why would you quote seven Old Testament passages to Gentile converts, but to this audience, he’s showing them, no, this Torah that you revere, look what it’s pointing us to. It’s pointing us to… Am I getting that right?

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:02:48 Exactly. Yeah. In fairness, that could go both ways. Scholars do wonder. Is it in fact a Jewish Christian audience who are feeling drawn to the ways of their former community or their former walk, or are these gentile converts who maybe are being pressured to become Jewish Christians? We’ve seen that as a dynamic all throughout the Book of Acts where there are some Jewish Christians who believe that to be a follower of Jesus, he’s the Jewish Messiah, come to save the Jewish people. If you want to avail yourself of that salvation, you have to be Jewish. And so the idea being that there are early Christians who are convincing those who are not ethnically Jewish gentiles to become Jewish first. Is this argument a way to tell Gentile Christians, you don’t need to make that move. That is a thing that Paul would agree with. Paul would agree that Gentiles don’t need to convert to Judaism in order to be a follower of Jesus.

  00:03:40 It’s hard to know exactly which way this is going in terms of the audience and the background, whoever it is, whoever this audience is, they know their Old Testament quite well. This is a very thoughtful community that this author is making an argument with.

Hank Smith: 00:03:53 Okay, yeah, let’s keep going, Matt.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:03:55 We’re still now in the middle of chapter 3. Now that the first six verses have made the argument that Moses is a faithful servant in the house, but Jesus is the heir to the estate. We now continue that theme of Jesus being superior to Moses or certainly the generation that Moses represented. The rest of chapter 3 gives a little bit of a homily on Psalm 95. Again, another contact with the Old Testament.

  00:04:21 Psalm 95 is a passage that refers back to the wanderings of the Israelites in the desert under Moses and how the Israelites wanted to obtain the rest, and that’s going to be the key word here, is the rest by entering into the Promised Land. But because that early generation, that first generation of Israelites wandering with Moses did not give heed to the words of the Lord, rebelled against the way of the Lord or gave into the certain temptations, they were not allowed to obtain the rest, meaning enter into the Promised Land. They were not able to inherit that as they had hoped. Instead, they ended up dying out in the desert. It took another generation to enter into the Promised Land, the “rest” that the first generation had sought.

  00:05:04 The rest of this chapter drawing upon Psalm 95, which is literally an Old Testament song about the first generations of Israelites not being able to enter into the rest of the Promised Land under Moses, the author of Hebrews now proceeds to say, let’s not be like that. Let’s not be like that generation of Israelites under Moses who never did obtain the rest of entering into the Promised Land, but instead, let us boldly go into the Promised Land. Let’s follow the captain of our salvation, Jesus, to accomplish something that Moses couldn’t accomplish, which was bringing his generation unto the rest of the Lord. That’s the rest of this sermon is how do we as followers of Jesus inherit the rest that the early Israelites could not?

  00:05:48 And so that’s the way he concludes this segment on Jesus as superior to Moses. He now kind of thinks about Jesus doing something that Moses couldn’t do by bringing us into that rest, into that promise, and this argument continues into chapter 4. In fact, the first half of chapter 4 is just further exploring this theme, and he actually kind of analogizes it in a really interesting way. He talks about, so what rest are we talking about here? Well, the early Israelites saw the promised land as the rest, but there’s an eternal rest that we’re all looking for, an eternal paradise, an eternal promised land, and that’s the rest that we’re actually seeking, and that’s the rest that Jesus can bring us to if we allow him to. So therefore, don’t backslide, don’t give up on Jesus. Jesus will bring you into the eternal rest that earlier generations only dreamed of. So that’s the way this author concludes the second unit of the book. Jesus is a superior to Moses and can bring us into the rest of the Lord, whereas that first generation could not experience that.

John Bytheway: 00:06:45 I’m grateful we’re talking about the day of provocation because it shows up in other scriptures and have had students going, “What is that, the day of provocation?” So that became a term where they referred to the kind of rebellion against Moses. Am I getting that right?

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:06:59 Right.

John Bytheway: 00:07:00 And it’s used throughout other scriptures, even in the Book of Mormon.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:07:03 Exactly, yeah. That phrase actually comes from this author’s quotation of Psalm 95. That’s the psalm on which this short homily is based. So if you read Psalm 95:7-11, that’s where we get this language of, “Don’t harden your hearts as in the day of provocation, as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tested me, and saw my works for 40 years, and I was grieved with that generation and said, ‘They’re erring in their hearts, they have not known my ways,’ so I swore in my wrath that they would not enter into my rest.” So that language, that framing of it, that’s Psalm 95. And then taking that idea and almost making an allegory for eternal salvation is what the rest of chapter 3 and chapter 4 do. So we do not want to be like the Israelites in the day of provocation under Moses who could not enter that rest.

  00:07:54 We want to enter an eternal rest, a heavenly rest, a rest of salvation, and that happens by following Jesus. That’s the way the author is concluding that argument of Jesus’s superiority in chapter 4, just… Here’s some of the language of this author, which is really beautiful, chapter 4, verse 8, “For if Jesus had given them rest…” Meaning that’s an interesting passage because Jesus there to us looks like we’re talking about Jesus, Jesus, like Jesus Christ, but that’s actually not, this is the Greek Joshua. Exactly right. For if Joshua had given them rest, then the Psalms would not have talked about another rest to come in the future. So we’re not actually talking about that original rest of going into the Promised Land that Joshua ultimately did. We are talking about verse 11, “Therefore let us labor to enter into that rest, that eternal rest, lest anyone fall under the same example of unbelief as the ancient Israelites did.”

  00:08:42 So really interesting plays on words, really interesting allusions to Psalms and earlier Old Testament stories. It is a rich text. This is why you need some study resources if you spend the time, unpack it, it is a great journey.

Hank Smith: 00:08:54 I noticed a pattern come up. Hebrews 3:7 he says, “Today, hear his voice.” He says it again in 13, “While it is called, ‘Today.'” Verse 15, “While it is said, ‘Today if you will hear his voice.'” Chapter 4:7, “Saying in David, ‘Today, after so a long time.'” And then again in verse 7, “As it is said, ‘Today, if you will hear his voice.'” I like that theme. I think I’m on the right track here where he says, “Act today, don’t harden your hearts. Do something today.”

  00:09:25 I love this thought from Elder Maxwell. He said, “One of the most cruel games anyone can play with self is the not yet game. Hoping to sin just a little bit more before ceasing, to enjoy the praise of the world a little longer before turning away from the applause, to win just one more in the wearying sweepstakes of materialism, to be chaste, but not yet. The truth is that not yet usually means never.” And then this statement: “Trying to run away from the responsibility to decide about Christ is childish.” I think the author of Hebrews might agree like, act today. This is your decision about Christ and it’s time to make a decision and to move forward with him. What’s going to happen next, Matt, as he’s made this parallel between Moses and the children of Israel and Christ and us, what does he do next?

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:10:16 Well, so right there in the middle of chapter 4, that’s where we really end our second segment. So, Jesus is superior to the angels, chapters 1 and 2. Jesus is superior to Moses and brings us into our true eternal rest. That’s chapter 3 and the first part of chapter 4. But at this point in chapter 4, moving on through chapter 7, we’re now going to enter the next, the third segment of the book. And in some ways this segment and the segment that follows really are kind of the meat and potatoes of Hebrews. The first two items of the angels and Moses have been really great certainly to set the stage and to give framing of the superiority of Jesus, but I think the heart and soul of this book is in the next two segments. And those two segments are chapter 4, verse 14 through chapter 7, the idea that Jesus’s priesthood is superior to the previous Levitical priesthood system. And then chapters 8 through 10 is that Jesus’s sacrifice is superior to the animal sacrifices of the Jerusalem temple.

  00:11:20 And so it’s going to be in these two segments that we get this iconic imagery from Hebrews of Jesus as our great high priest after the order of Melchizedek, who’s making intercession for us right now in the heavenly temple and who is superior to the high priest of the Aaronic priesthood system. That’s chapter 4:14 through chapter 7, and then chapter 8 through 10. And Jesus’s sacrifice is the ultimate atonement. Everything that went before were shadows of the heavenly reality of Jesus’s sacrifice providing ultimate reconciliation between humans and God.

  00:11:53 For these two segments, the author is assuming an extensive knowledge of the Old Testament temple system. That’s why I said this really is the meat and potatoes of the book because this is the segment where he will draw heavily on the Levitical priesthood structure and the sacrificial system of the Jerusalem temple as a way to make the point that you no longer need to go to the Jerusalem temple, or you no longer need to feel drawn to the priestly rituals of mediation offered at the temple. This is something new and it’s something higher and it’s something better. This is the ultimate version of what the Old Testament priesthood and temple was meant to be, is the argument that this author makes.

  00:12:30 To work through these next two sections, I think it might be useful if you guys are interested in taking just a few minutes, just very brief summary, brief review of how Old Testament priesthood works and how the Old Testament temple works so that we can follow the logic of the author in making the argument that Jesus is superior.

Hank Smith: 00:12:47 This is what we did with you last year, right, Matt?

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:12:49 It is. We can very briefly review some key highlights. First, let’s look at the Old Testament Levitical priesthood system that this author assumes that you as a reader know. That system is a system based on hereditary lineage. So, it’s a system of Levitical priesthood based on your ancestry. The idea that a priesthood class is set apart in ancient Israel based on what tribe they were born into. If you were born into the larger tribe of Levi, you are a Levite. If within that tribe you were born into the line of Aaron, you were an Aaronic priest. And if within that tribe and within that Aaronic lineage you were the firstborn son, ideally who was going to inherit the office, you would be the presiding Aaronic priest, what we sometimes call the high priest. Not to be confused with the Latter-day Saint office of high priests. These are two very different things as we’ll see in a moment.

  00:13:40 But the point is that the Old Testament Levitical priestly system is a hereditary one. It’s all based on which tribe you’re born into. So, with that idea of birth and tribal affiliation setting this class of people apart, that class is now the mediating class between Israel and God. It’s going to be those Levitical or Aaronic priests that will perform sacrifices on behalf of Israel, that will offer prayers and intercession through the rituals of the temple. Those Levitical or Aaronic priests will represent Israel to God and will also represent God to Israel. In addition to offering sacrifices on behalf of Israel or offering incense born prayers on behalf of Israel, making intercession, pleading to God on behalf of Israel, those priests will then turn around, emerge from the sanctuary, raise their hands above their head, and give the priestly blessing from number six, “May the Lord bless you and keep you, may his face shine upon you and give you peace.” These priests are the mediating link between Israel and God. They’re the intercessors in the Old Testament Levitical system. How are they set apart? By their lineage, by their birth.

  00:14:45 And among those Levitical or Aaronic priests, the one presiding priest, the high priest is the one who will perform additional rituals of mediation and intercession. For example, on the Day of Atonement, once a year the high priest will go through the veil, through the curtain leading into the Holy of Holies and will bring some of the sacrificial blood into the Holy of Holies, and that blood will reconnect, will reaffirm the purity of the sanctuary, will provide atonement for Israel, will reconnect Israel to God, that blood is the seal of the covenant. Once a year, the high priest will renew that covenant by applying that seal as the chief mediator between Israel and God.

Hank Smith: 00:15:27 Yom Kippur, right?

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:15:28 Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. Exactly right. That’s a really important idea to keep in mind when we’re talking about these next segments of how that system worked because this author is going to say that that system was very powerful, but there are reasons why that system was limited. That system did not have the power to actually provide salvation. The actual high priest is going to be Jesus. He will be the true high priest mediating in the heavenly temple, offering ultimate intercession between Israel and God. So that’s going to be one of the main themes of the next section. We’ll walk through the argument when we get there, but I think before we do, I think the next thing to remember though is the temple or how does the temple and its sacrificial system, how does that function in ancient Israel? The author assumes that you know that as well.

  00:16:13 Just a quick review, just a reminder that if priests performed rituals that interceded, mediated between Israel and God, it was the sacrificial slaughter of animals that provided atonement offerings or guilt offerings, various offerings that through the death of this animal and through the shedding of this animal’s blood, you could be purified of any kind of impurities. You could be atoned for various sins or transgressions or guilty things. The rituals were performed by the priests. It’s the blood that is the seal that provides the purification or the forgiveness or the atonement, the reconciliation between Israel and God. And those sacrifices occurred on a regular basis. Every day there was morning and afternoon sacrifices symbolizing the death of an animal that then symbolized that reconciliation. Every week there were special sacrifices of goats and sheep. Every month there were special sacrifices. Every year there were annual sacrifices like on the Day of Atonement and then various festivals on a routine calendrical basis. There were various sacrifices.

  00:17:14 So this was a world of sacrifice, a world of animal slaughter and blood which provided that reconciliation. It’s that system of priestly mediation and sacrificial atonement that the author assumes that you know that the audience seems to still be drawn to. Whether it be a living temple in pre-70 Jerusalem or questions of what do we do now, the temple is no longer there if you’re in post-70 Jerusalem. But the author is trying to make the argument, you no longer need to feel drawn to that system because we have something that supersedes it. It’s Jesus. He’s the ultimate. He’s the real version of this. He’s the ultimate heavenly high priest, or he’s the ultimate atoning sacrifice providing that reconciliation.

  00:17:54 In addition to being immersed in that Hebrew Bible culture, immersed in the Old Testament institutions of priesthood and sacrifice that we’ve been discussing, this author is also very much a part of the intellectual climate of his own day. And in the first century, especially among well-educated Greek-speaking diaspora Jews, like this author seems to be, that means you’re also going to be very well acquainted with various Hellenistic philosophies. You’re going to be very interested in and aware of Platonic ideas, for example. And in these next two segments, the author will also use those Platonic ideas and assume that the audience understands them. And the big idea here, I think that we just need to note is the idea of types and shadows. Those are phrases or terms that we tend to use a lot as Latter-day Saints, but from a New Testament context, those terms come from middle Platonism, the intellectual climate of this world, the author’s world, and the world of the audience.

  00:18:51 If you’ve ever read Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, you have a decent sense of how this image of types and shadows work. The way that it works is that things on earth that we see are simply a shadow of the true heavenly realities. If you imagine we’re all sitting in a cave and we’re facing the back wall of the cave, so our backs are to the entrance of the cave. All we see are the shadows of things that are cast by the actual sunlight which is behind us. So, if we were to stand up and turn around, we would see the actual thing, the real thing. Right now, we just tend to look at shadows. So, when we talk about types and shadows, that’s the language. It’s a Platonic category of the things that we see on earth that are mere shadows of the heavenly realities. Plato, like this author, is encouraging us to stand up and no longer look at the shadows casting against the back wall of the cave, but to stand up and look behind us and see the actual light and see the real items that are casting those shadows.

  00:19:48 And the reason why that metaphor, those Platonic categories of types and shadows are so important is because this author will use that image as a way to describe the priesthood in the temple. The earthly priesthood, this author will argue, the earthly Levitical priests are simply the shadows of the heavenly reality, who is Jesus.

  00:20:07 When we see the earthly high priest in the Jerusalem temple, we’re only seeing the shadow of the heavenly reality, which is Jesus, as the actual high priest. So, stand up and turn around and see the real version rather than just fixate on the shadow that is cast against the wall. And same thing with the temple. The temple on the earth, this author will say in the next few chapters, is a mere shadow of the heavenly reality. There is a temple in heaven. It’s where God actually lives. There’s an actual heavenly curtain and there’s an actual heavenly altar, and there’s an actual heavenly high priest. That’s the real version. With that idea of types and shadows in mind, I think we’re now very well positioned to see how this author will show the superiority of Jesus’s priesthood and the superiority of his sacrifice.

Hank Smith: 00:20:48 That’s really helpful to understand types and shadows.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:20:52 We’re still in chapter 4, verse 14. This begins the next segment, the superiority of Jesus’s priesthood. And the way this author does it, there’s some really great stuff along the way here. So let’s just read together chapter 4, verse 14. “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens…” He’s already alluding to this idea. You’re used to an earthly high priest going through the veil of the Jerusalem temple to go into the Holy of Holies to make intercession, but we have a great high priest who’s passing through the heavenly veil into the heavenly Holy of Holies. That’s Jesus the Son of God. So, let’s talk about Jesus as our great high priest. Let us hold fast to our profession. I think that’s another reminder that this is an author who’s trying to convince the audience to hang on, to hold fast to what you know. Don’t go back to the previous way. We have confidence and trust that this heavenly high priest, the great high priest, is the true captain of our salvation.

  00:21:48 And then I love how he says in verse 15, “For we do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.” So, another reminder that when we’re talking about our heavenly mediator, our heavenly high priestly intercessor, we’re not talking about one who’s eternally detached. We’re talking about a heavenly high priest who actually became a human, suffered like a human, was tempted in all points like a human. I think that can be extremely encouraging and helpful for those of us who are working through temptations. Jesus knows exactly what that’s like, and he brought that experience with him into his heavenly role as the great high priest.

  00:22:27 So we’re talking about a high priest who knows exactly what it’s like to be you, who’s walked in your sandals, who can walk this journey with you, but who right now is interceding for you before the true heavenly throne room, before the heavenly Holy of Holies. This author literally wants to envision Jesus dressed in the robes of the high priesthood, standing in front of the veil of the heavenly temple and offering his prayers just like the earthly high priest would’ve been. He’s doing that for you right now. He can do that with such power because he knows what it’s like to be you. He knows what it’s like to have experienced that temptation. He knows what it’s like for you to experience that suffering, and now he’s pleading with that knowledge, with that experiential knowledge. He’s now pleading for you as we speak before the heavenly veil.

  00:23:09 Because of that, verse 16, “Let us therefore…” I connected to that thought. “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace so that we can obtain mercy and find grace to help in the time of need.” We can have complete confidence in our ability to approach God’s throne and to receive the mercy from God’s throne because our high priest who’s making intercession for us as we speak, has the ultimate power to make that intercession. We can have complete trust, complete confidence. We can boldly approach the throne of grace.

  00:23:40 I think it’s interesting because you and I are so used to the idea of saying our prayers throughout the day that we address the Lord and we speak to the Lord and we talk to him. We beg for help. We give him thanks and praise. We speak to God in prayer. That is something that was a little unusual in the ancient world because in the ancient world, priests prayed for you. Priests offered intercessory prayers. This author is basically saying, look, that curtain has been drawn aside because of the intercessory work of Jesus, which means all of us, not just earthly high priests, we can all now go through that veil, go through that curtain, kneel right down at the throne of God and obtain grace from him when we need it. Obtain the mercy when we need it, feel the love when we need it, feel the reconciliation when we need it because of our great high priest. That is how the author starts this third segment of the book with that really beautiful image of Jesus dressed as the high priest, intercession for us at the veil of the heavenly temple.

John Bytheway: 00:24:34 I’ve always loved verse 15, but you have doubled it for me because I just thought, “Oh yeah, the author is speaking of Jesus as a great high priest.” The double negative there helps too. All these years we’ve had a high priest who might not know you. He’s kind of intercession for Israel, but now we have a high priest who can be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, who was tempted as we are, but without sin. Comparing it to that old high priest that probably doesn’t know your name. You’re just one of the house of Israel. This one does. This one knows everything you’ve been through, and this high priest has been tempted like you.

  00:25:16 It reminds me there’s this talk of Elder Bednar, a BYU devotional in October 23rd, 2001. Elder Bednar said, “There’s no physical pain, no anguish of soul, no suffering of spirit, no infirmity or weakness that you or I ever experience during our mortal journey that the Savior did not experience first. You and I in a moment of weakness may cry out, ‘No one understands. No one knows.’ No human being, perhaps, knows. But the Son of God perfectly knows and understands, for he felt and bore our burdens before we ever did. And because he paid the ultimate price and bore that burden, he has perfect empathy and can extend to us his arm of mercy in so many phases of our life. He can reach out, touch, and succor, literally run to us, and strengthen us to be more than we could ever be and help us to do that which we could never do through relying only upon our own power.” That comes along with that, “He’s touched with the feeling of our infirmities.” I loved it before. I love it even more now.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:26:24 That’s great. It feels like Elder Bednar is very much tapping into not only that Book of Mormon theology of Alma 7, but the theology of the Book of Hebrews here. I love that.

Hank Smith: 00:26:34 Back in 2016, Elder Christofferson used this verse, Hebrews 4:15. He told the story of Helen Keller to help us understand this verse. He said:

  00:26:47 “The story of Helen Keller is something of a parable suggesting how divine love can transform a willing soul. Helen was born in Alabama in 1880. When she was just 19 months old, she suffered an undiagnosed illness that left her both deaf and blind. She was extremely intelligent and became frustrated as she tried to understand and make sense of her surroundings. When Helen felt the moving lips of family members and realized they were using their mouths to speak, she flew into a rage because she was unable to join the conversation. By the time Helen was six, her need to communicate and her frustration grew so intense that outbursts occurred daily, sometimes hourly.

  00:27:27 “Helen’s parents hired a teacher for their daughter, a woman named Anne Sullivan. Just as we have in Jesus Christ, one who understands our infirmities, Anne Sullivan had struggled with her own serious hardships and understood Helen’s infirmities. At age five, Anne had contracted a disease that caused painful scarring of the cornea and left her mostly blind. When Anne was eight, her mother died; her father abandoned her and her younger brother, Jimmy; and they were sent to a poor house, where conditions were so deplorable that Jimmy died after three months. Through her own persistence, Anne gained an entry into Perkins School for the Blind and vision impaired.” So now she’s able to work with Helen.

  00:28:11 It says, “At the beginning, Helen hit, pinched, and kicked her teacher and knocked out one of her teeth. Anne finally gained control by moving with Helen into a small cottage on the Keller’s property. Through patience and firm consistency, she finally won the child’s heart and trust.”

  00:28:30 He goes through this moment when Anne taught Helen the word water and what it meant, and then he says everything had a name and each name gave birth to a new thought. Every object, she said later she touched, seemed to quiver with life.

  00:28:50 Elder Christofferson returns to the thought of Jesus. Here he says, “Let us consider the cost of God’s precious love. Jesus revealed that to atone for our sins and redeem us from death, both physical and spiritual, his suffering caused himself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain. His agony in Gethsemane and on the cross was greater than any mortal could bear. What a precious gift is divine love! Filled with that love, Jesus asks, ‘Will you not now return unto me, and repent of your sins, and be converted, that I may heal you?'” He assures, ‘Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come will I receive.’ Will you not love him who first loved you? Then keep his commandments. Will you not be a friend to him who laid down his life for his friends? Then keep his commandments. Will you not abide in his love and receive all that he graciously offers you? Then keep his commandments.”

  00:29:48 Just a great analogy of what it’s like to be someone who’s “which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities,” the way that Anne was able to take Helen from this terrible situation into a situation where she could truly learn. I think Elder Christofferson is saying the same thing about the Lord, that because he has suffered these kind of infirmities, he is able now to transform your life.

John Bytheway: 00:30:14 To succor us, to help us. That takes me back to my favorite Helen Keller quotation, which goes back to Plato’s Cave kind of. She said, “When you face the sun, the shadows of discouragement fall behind you.” But change that sun, S-U-N to S-O-N, and when you face the son, the Son of God, the shadows of discouragement fall behind you kind of fits in.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:30:41 That’s cool.

Hank Smith: 00:30:42 Later in 2023, Elder Christofferson quotes Hebrews 4:15 again and he said, “Jesus was also a being of flesh and spirit. He was tested. He understands. He can help us achieve unity within. Therefore, drawing upon the light and grace of Christ, we strive to give our spirit and the Holy Spirit dominance over the physical.” So, this verse is a oft quoted verse throughout the restoration from the Book of Hebrews.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:31:12 That’s really great. Well, and hopefully the historical context behind that verse and the imagery that this author is using for that verse can just enhance and expand upon the way we already value that message. But envisioning it the way that this author is asking us to envision it is a pretty powerful first statement in this segment of the book. So, I guess the idea is that now that we are envisioning Jesus as a great high priest in the heavens making intercession for us right now, but it’s an intercession that’s a very experientially informed intercession. He knows what it’s like so he can really plead our case. We can boldly come to God, receive that mercy, receive that love in time of need. What he’ll do now in what we call chapter 5, so we’re now continuing with the logic, we have to finish this whole segment, is he’ll now contrast that with the earthly high priest.

  00:31:58 So we’re going back to that image that the high priest is, he’s the earthly shadow. This author is encouraging you to stand up and turn around and see the heavenly reality. But in chapter 5, we’d look at the shadow for a few minutes. So, what he’ll do in chapter 5 is make an argument for the limitations of the earthly Levitical Aaronic priesthood and its presiding high priest, kind of like Moses and the angels. I don’t think he’s saying these are bad human beings, or this was not an inspired system. I don’t think he’s saying any of that. He’s just saying, don’t forget it’s the shadow and we need to look at the reality. So, here’s how he describes the shadow, exploring these limitations of earthly Levitical priesthood and high priest.

  00:32:39 Chapter 5, verse 1, he says, “For every earthly high priest taken from among humans, they’re ordained for humans in things pertaining to God, that these high priests can offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins.” That’s why these high priests were set apart by their lineage as Levitical high priests. “Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself,” meaning the earthly high priest, “also is encompassed with infirmities.” One of the things with the shadow, the earthly high priest is he actually is just a human being. He’s got sins like every single one of us. He’s got limitations like every single one of us. He’s got infirmities like every single one of us. Because of that, verse 3, “By reason thereof, he needs to, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sin.”

  00:33:26 The earthly Levitical priestly system, this author is saying, has priests and a high priest who need to offer sacrifices for the people, but they also need to offer sacrifices for themselves because they need to be reconciled because they have impurities or guilt or sin that separates them from God. And that’s just baked into the system. It’s a reminder that every single one of us are human beings, including the earthly high priest. We all need those atoning reconciling sacrifices.

  00:33:52 Now, having identified that the author will say, so now, Jesus did not glorify himself to be made our great high priest. We’ll quote Psalm 2, “It was said to him, ‘You are my Son, today I’ve begotten you.” So we’re back to quoting Psalms. But in another place, and this is where the argument gets really interesting. In another place, and this is Psalm one 110:4, the psalmist says, “You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” This is our first introduction to the idea that Jesus is not a high priest after the order of Levi. He’s not even a Levite.

  00:34:25 In fact, later on in chapter… I think it’s chapter 7, the author will again anticipate a pushback from his audience, “If you’re saying that Jesus is our great high priest, how is that even possible? He wasn’t even born into the tribe of Levi. He was born into the tribe of Judah.” This is where the author needs to make a really interesting move by saying that, yes, he is a high priest, he’s our great intercessor, but he’s not a high priest because he was born into the tribe of Levi. You’re right, he was of the tribe of Judah. He is of a completely different order of priesthood, and this is going to introduce this very interesting idea of Jesus being a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. And in a few minutes, I think we’ll come back to that in just a moment. We all have to unpack that chapter 7 especially, really goes into the depth of the difference between a Levitical priesthood order and this higher Melchizedek priesthood order according to this author’s view. So, we’ll come back to that in a second, but this is the first hint that we get that this is where the author’s going to go. He’s a high priest after a different order of priesthood, not Levitical, but in fact Melchizedek. So, we’ll come back to that in a second. That’s all based on Psalm 110:4.

  00:35:30 This is Hebrews 5:7, “Who in the days of his flesh,” Jesus, “he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.” And he goes on to say, “Though he were a Son,” verse 8, “he learned by obedience by the things which he suffered; being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all those that obey him.” Therefore, he’s called of God a high priest after this different order of Melchizedek.

  00:36:02 There’s some really beautiful language there I think we can unpack. We’ll come back to the Melchizedek’s order in just a second, but along the way, what interesting ideas, right? Jesus in his human wanderings, in his mortal condition, he knew what it was like to offer up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears.

  00:36:20 This author goes back and forth between an extremely high Christology. On the one hand, the divine, all powerful Christ who created the world, the intercession high priest of the heavenly temple, back to the reminder that he actually experienced the human suffering, experienced the human condition. He knows what it’s like to literally pour out his heart and soul in prayer and in strong tears and crying. It’s almost like this author is aware of… It kind of sounds a little bit like the Gethsemane tradition from the gospels where we see Jesus, especially in the synoptic tradition, Mark and Matthew in particular, where Jesus is literally crying in tears to God, “Take this cup away from me.” Begging the Lord to remove this thing. He’s scared, he’s terrified, he doesn’t want to be here. He’s in tears begging God to remove the cup, but then reconciles by saying, “Nevertheless, not what I want, but what you want.” These very powerful Gethsemane moments. I don’t know if that’s exactly what the author of Hebrews is directly referring to, but it’s something like that. He seems to be saying that in his human wanderings, Jesus knows what it’s like to cry out in strong-

Hank Smith: 00:37:22 To really cry out, yeah.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:37:22 … tears. Really cry out and he worked through that. He pushed through that. He turned his will over to the will of God, and that’s how through obedience, he became this exalted Son who can make this priestly intercession for us. That’s how he became perfect. That’s how he became the author of our eternal salvation if we just obey him. That’s how he was called of God a high priest after this different order of priesthood that we’re going to call the Melchizedek order. So that’s a really interesting way to start this segment of the book. Any thoughts so far about those passages?

John Bytheway: 00:37:53 Yeah, can I just rewind? Give us the big picture again. Hebrews starts out, Jesus is greater than the angels.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:38:03 Right. That’s chapter 1, yep, and 2.

John Bytheway: 00:38:05 Jesus is greater than Moses.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:38:08 Moses, chapter 3 and the first part of chapter 4.

John Bytheway: 00:38:10 Jesus was greater than the current high priest that they had.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:38:16 Right. The superiority of his priesthood, chapter 4 through 7.

John Bytheway: 00:38:20 He’s telling us why. Okay, this big picture helps me. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:38:24 Yeah, and Matt, the author here, tying Jesus or we’re seeing Jesus in his sufferings, he was offering up these prayers and supplication. I think it was Matthew who says, in the garden of Gethsemane that the Lord falls on his face and is in this suffering moment. Maybe I don’t know about his intended audience, but a Latter-day audience can really feel the power of that. Back to Nephi, “Knowest thou the condescension of God?” Because I know both of you well, and like everybody else, you have knelt and prayed and begged God for something. And when you hear that the Lord did that same thing, there’s a connection there and maybe a sense of purpose in my own sufferings, my own prayers and supplications and tears, that the Lord went through all that and look what it turned him into, and maybe those same things will turn me into something.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:39:23 Yeah, I love that. And I think, again, it’s hard to know exactly what moment in Jesus’s human life this author is referring to. Is it the moment in Gethsemane where he is on his face and crying, take this cup away. Abba Father, I’m scared I don’t want to be here, but nevertheless, not my will, but your will be done. The other possibility, of course, is the cry on the cross, another powerful moment in the synoptic tradition, in Mark and Matthew in particular, where Jesus is on the cross and he feels that deep moment of divine abandonment. “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani? My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

  00:39:54 He cries out and Mark says he is literally crying out in tears, “Why have you abandoned me in the very moment that I need you the most?” Some really powerful moments in the human experience of Jesus, but because he endured through those and he continued to say, but I’m going to trust that this is going somewhere, “Nevertheless not my will, but your will be done.” That was the path through his exaltation, according to this author. He learned through that process how to become the exalted glorified Son at the right hand of God, the high priest after the order of Melchizedek. So, I think there’s so much there for us as members of the human family to connect with Jesus and to realize this is part of his heavenly high priesthood, is having experienced those things.

Hank Smith: 00:40:35 Perfect. Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:40:36 I think what we should do then, let’s just keep going through this section. I think that’s where we’ll take this in our conversation. We’ll leave the rest of the book for another guest and another discussion, but I think we should at least finish chapter 5, 6 and 7 because that is that unit of Jesus’s priesthood and him as the great high priest.

  00:40:51 So having just set up those themes and just now exploring this idea of him being a priest after the order of Melchizedek, I’ve seen some limitations of the earthly high priests with the shadows versus the heavenly reality. The rest of chapter 5, and most of chapter 6 does take a little bit of an interesting tangent. It’s almost like you and I, well, as we’ve done here today, we’re focusing on the argument, we’re focusing on the text and at key moments we’ll stop and take a little bit of a detour, say, “Oh, that reminds me of this, or this reminds me of that.” Well, the author does that here too.

  00:41:22 The image that the author takes a small detour on is an image that we have used in our community, although I don’t know if we use it the same way. And that’s the idea of milk before meat. It’s a really interesting image. Sometimes when we use that phrase, milk before meat, it’s our way of saying, “Oh man, we’re getting into some pretty deep heavy stuff here. Let’s stick with the basics.” Milk before meat. Let’s stick with the basic kind of the bullet points of the manual. Those are the basics. Let’s just stick with that and the meat for some other time. So, we use that image as a way to say, let’s not go too heavy. Let’s not get too deep. This author uses it in exactly the opposite way. This author says, look, just like infants do need milk, that’s all they can handle, but you’re not an infant for very long. Eventually you grow up and your body needs actual sustenance, like meaty sustenance, and you need some stuff to keep you sustained and to keep you growing and maturing.

  00:42:13 So this author uses that milk before meat image as a way to say, you can’t just stay on the milk for very long. At some point, you need to start having some solid food. The way that this author describes the milk and the meat is actually really interesting because he describes the milk as being the basic ideas of the Christian creed, the basic ideas of the Christian profession. And he’s saying, look, you guys have been Christians now for a while. You know the basics. You have the milk. And he then lists things like baptism and repentance and having faith and the laying on of hands. You have those basics already. You already have that milk.

  00:42:46 What I’m talking about now, what I’m going to continue to explore, this idea of Jesus being the great high priest after the order of Melchizedek, that’s pretty meaty stuff, and you need it because apparently if you’re just staying on the milk, your roots just aren’t deep enough. Your muscles just aren’t strong enough. That’s the entryway. That’s the gate, isn’t it? Nephi would say, that’s the way in. But pretty soon you’re no longer a six-month-old. Pretty soon you’re a five-year-old and a 10-year-old and a 20-year-old. You need some meaty stuff, and that’s what I’m going to give you here.

  00:43:14 So it’s a really interesting way that he uses this image that I actually quite like. I think that’s pretty cool. He says in chapter 5, verse 12, “When the time that you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again.” We’re focusing on this, right?

Hank Smith: 00:43:26 Yeah.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:43:27 “Which the first principles of God are the oracles of God; such as to have need of milk, and not of strong meat.” But he goes on to say, “Look, you’ve all had the milk though.” So let’s move on. Chapter 6, verse 1, “Therefore…” Again, he’s continuing the argument. “Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to the principles of perfection.” Now, I think we can read that out of context, and it’s almost like he’s saying, don’t worry about the basics. That’s actually not what he’s saying. He’s saying, you’ve got the basics. You’ve got the glass of milk in front of you. You’ve had that glass of milk for a very long time. So, he’s not saying, leaving the doctrine of Christ. He’s saying, yeah, keep that glass of milk on the table, but now here’s the steak. So let us move on to perfection now. So now let’s give you some meat. Let’s give you some sustenance. Let’s build those muscles. And that’s the image here. So let us go on to perfection.

  00:44:11 Not laying again, the foundations of the milky stuff. Repentance, it’s great. Faith, powerful. Doctrine of baptism, needful. Laying on of hands, great. Resurrection of the dead, eternal judgment. That’s all really great stuff. We’re not saying to go back on that stuff, but we’re saying that’s the milk. Now let’s move on to the principles of perfection. Now, let me talk to you more about Jesus as your great high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

  00:44:36 I think that’s a really cool image, and it’s an interesting way to think about the way we study scripture. We really, this author says, can’t just drink milk forever. We need the milk. But sooner or later, we do need some meaty stuff too. Otherwise, you’ll say, this is verse 4, 5 and 6. Otherwise, you’ll fall away. You just won’t have the strength if you just stick with five bullet points your whole life. It’s just not enough. It’s a place to get started, but it’s not the sustaining power of the meat. Let’s talk about the meat, who Jesus is.

Hank Smith: 00:45:04 Seems to be the essence of spiritual maturity. You’re no longer an infant. It’s time to move on and really, really learn. Not that your previous learning was bad. It was great.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:45:15 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:45:16 You’re not gonna be able to… That’s not going to sustain you now in your maturity as a Christian.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:45:22 Isn’t that interesting? It’s interesting that you use the word maturity, Hank, because that’s actually closer to the word perfection. When we think of perfection, we think of you need to be perfect in all of these things, and we kind of generate that cultural perfectionism that we sometimes struggle with as Latter-day Saints. But that’s not what the Greek word for perfection means here. When Jesus says in Greek, in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5 or the author of Hebrew says, perfection here, he’s talking about a maturity, a development that leads you to completion. And so that’s what he’s saying, is it’s time to now move on towards that maturity, towards that development of the perfection journey of not being perfect in all things the way we think of it, but just that maturity of spiritual life and growth and discipleship. So anyway, I think that’s a really interesting way to say it.

  00:46:03 So that’s his tangent. Actually, most of chapter 6 is that little detour about the, you need some meaty stuff, and I’m going to give you some meaty stuff. He concludes chapter 6 though by getting back to the image. So, here’s why you need the meat, is because that meat is the anchor to the soul. The milk is what gets you started, nourishes you for your first few months of life. But chapter 6, verse 19, we are now talking about the hope that we have as an anchor to the soul. It’s sure and steadfast, and which entered into that within the veil, meaning that which is past the heavenly veil. That’s where we’re going to. We’re going to the heavenly Holy of Holies. So we need the milk, but now we need the meat to get us through the rest of the way.

  00:46:43 We are talking here about the forerunner for us who has entered through that heavenly veil into the heavenly Holy of Holies. We’re talking about Jesus, the high priest after the order of Melchizedek. Now, let’s talk about the meaty teachings of Jesus as our great high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

  00:46:59 Chapter 7 then goes on to talk about this Melchizedek. This is a really fascinating chapter. For Latter-day Saints, we’ve been interested in this material for a very long time. When Joseph Smith, in the early history of the restoration started articulating the differences of priesthoods for the Latter-day Saint community, the Levitical or Aaronic priesthood on the one hand or the higher Melchizedek priesthood on the other, these chapters, Hebrews 5 through 7, were a major source of language, verbiage, inspiration, conceptual ideas for him. Then foster through additional revelation, read these chapters in comparison with section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the oath and covenant of the priesthood, section 107, about the higher Melchizedek priesthood and how it differs from the lower Levitical priesthood. A lot of those ideas, at least the language of that, those revelations come from the chapters 5 through 7 here in Hebrews.

  00:47:50 The first thing we need to do is, so let’s talk about this idea of Jesus being a high priest after the Melchizedek, because again, it’s in chapter 7 where he anticipates the concern of his audience saying, “How are you saying Jesus is a high priest? He’s not even a Levite. He’s from the house of Judah.” Well, he’s from a different order of priesthood. Let’s talk about that order of priesthood. Now, this order of priesthood called the Melchizedek priesthood is an idea that is a little bit obscure in the Bible.

  00:48:11 If we’re totally honest, we basically have, from an Old Testament perspective, we basically have two passages that give us hints as to who Melchizedek is and to what it even means to be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. There’s not a lot to go on there. This comes from Genesis 14 where Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God in a place called Salem. His name of course, means the king of righteousness, Melchizedek. Zedek is righteous, and melchi is my king, or something like that. So Melchizedek is a king of… some kind of righteous king who is a king and a priest of the most high God in Salem, traditionally associated with an early version of Jerusalem, to whom Abraham paid tithes.

  00:48:52 So here we have Abraham, who is the great patriarch of the covenant, the great father of the covenant of Israel and the tribes… Levi is not even a speck in anyone’s eye yet. There is no Levitical priesthood yet, this author will remind us. Levi is going to be a grandson of Abraham. We are talking about Abraham, the great patriarch who himself, when he went to pay tithes, would pay tithes and make offerings through this Melchizedek figure. And this author of Hebrews chapter 7 will say, “The lesser will always be blessed by the greater. When Melchizedek would receive the tithes of Abraham, suggesting that he, Melchizedek was somehow greater than Abraham, Melchizedek would then bless Abraham in the name of the Lord. And if the lesser is blessed by the greater, that means that Abraham was actually subordinate in some way to this great priest Melchizedek.

  00:49:41 The author will then take… It’s kind of a fun, I’ll call it a leap of argument, but it’s kind of an interesting move in the argumentation to say if Levi wasn’t even born yet, if Levi was just in the loin of Abraham at this point, clearly that shows that there’s already a hierarchical difference between the later Levitical hereditary priesthood and the greater order of priesthood that Melchizedek somehow represents, which is a priesthood that Abraham defers to let alone his not yet born grandson Levi. So, it’s a really interesting move that this author is making in terms of setting up the scriptural story. That’s all we get from Genesis 14. We don’t know who Melchizedek is. We don’t know where he comes from.

  00:50:18 This author in chapter 7 of Hebrews will go on to say, the Melchizedek priesthood therefore is characterized not by lineage, like the Levitical priesthood. Melchizedek is without father and without mother. We don’t even know who his parents are. This is a priesthood that is not connected to lineage. It’s without father. It’s without end of years, it’s without mother. He’s already setting up these categorical differences between the two priesthoods. That being the case, maybe we can read a few passages here. It really is fun to see him think through this.

  00:50:45 Oh, oh, I’m sorry. I should say one more thing before we read. Is in addition to Genesis 14, the only other passage we have in the Old Testament that refers to this is going to be Psalm 110. Psalm 110 is a psalm that we’ve referred to throughout the Book of Hebrews a few times already. We’ve already seen him allude to this, so he’s clearly interested in this Psalm. Psalm 110 is where the Davidic king is pronounced a priest after the order of Melchizedek. That’s a really interesting move. There’s some idea in ancient Israelite kingship that they function in a priestly role too, but it’s not the lineage-based priesthood of the Levites. It’s a royal priesthood of some kind. It’s the king of righteousness and the priest of Salem idea. It’s the king and priest idea that Melchizedek seems to represent and apparently occasionally Davidic kings were pronounced to be of the order of Melchizedek. These king priest combos in some ways. That’s all we have. Almost no information about that.

  00:51:41 It’s very vague from an Old Testament perspective, but it’s giving us something to go on that there’s this figure named Melchizedek. There’s something called an order of Melchizedek that seems to be kind of a royal priesthood order of some kind. That’s what we have. And as a result, by the time we get to Judaism in the late Second Temple period, among the various expectations of what the Messiah would be, there is one interesting… It’s a minority strand.

  00:52:06 Most people just assume the Messiah will be a royal king, who will be a victorious general or something like that. But among the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Qumran community who were active in the time of Jesus, and presumably in the time of this author, they have a text called 11Q Melchizedek. It’s a fascinating fragmentary scroll among the Dead Sea Scroll corpus that actually looks towards a future Messiah as being a return of Melchizedek. This great king priest from Genesis 14 will return one day and will actually initiate the great eternal jubilee where all debts are canceled, and all sins are forgiven and all prisoners are released. And when that great Messianic era comes, it’s going to be a Melchizedek figure, not a Levitical figure, but a Melchizedek figure who’s going to do it.

  00:52:49 And that one fragmentary passage in the Dead Sea Scroll suggests that these fairly obscure Old Testament passages were speculated upon in the late Second Temple period. The later Jews were, “Wow. I wonder where that figure is. That sounds really mysterious.” And it even started to work into some Messianic expectations. Not among all, but at least among some. So, I think that’s an interesting backdrop to think about. The author’s not pulling this out of thin air. He’s drawing upon Genesis 14. He’s drawing upon Psalm 110, and maybe even be aware of some groups who are expecting a return of a Melchizedek figure of some kind like 11Q13 from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

  00:53:24 So here we are, Hebrews 7:1, “For this Melchizedek,” this is referring to the Genesis 14 material. “This Melchizedek was the king of Salem, the priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and gave him a blessing.” Melchizedek blessed Abraham. “To whom Abraham gave a tithe, a 10th part of all; first being by interpretation, king of righteousness.” That’s how you interpret the name Melchizedek. The zedek part is righteous, and the melek part is king. Melchizedek is a righteous king or a king of righteousness. So that’s who this figure is. And after that, he’s also the king of Salem, which apparently is playing on the name Shalom here, which is king of peace. So, he’s the king of righteousness. He’s the king of peace and he’s somehow superior to Abraham.

  00:54:10 This Melchizedek that we’re talking about from Genesis 14 is without father, without mother, without dissent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life. So, in other words, this is not a lineage-based priesthood order. This guy’s priesthood is without genealogy, no beginning, no end, no father, no mother, no descendants. This is a different class of priesthood and therefore he was made like unto the Son of God who abides as a priest continually.

  00:54:36 Now, keep in mind this author says this guy was superior to Abraham. And Abraham presumably superior to Levi. Levi was only in his loins at this point. So, kind of through Abraham, the author goes, it’s almost like Levi himself still in Abraham’s loins is paying tithing to Melchizedek. So clearly Levi is through Abraham deferring to this greater priest, Melchizedek. Well, this is the priest that we’re talking about. This is the order that Jesus is part of. And he goes on to talk about the Levi paying tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham. It’s kind of an interesting argument. I don’t know if that’s the most convincing part of the book, but it’s certainly an interesting way of trying to envision the relationship between these two.

  00:55:15 But he does go on to say, and this is the rest of chapter 7, the reason for him, this author, that these two priesthoods are so significant is because the Levitical priesthood simply cannot and was never designed to bring perfection, but the Melchizedek priesthood does and can bring perfection. So, here’s what he says, chapter 7, verse 11, “If therefore perfection could have come by the Levitical priesthood,” then why would these other passages like Psalm 110 talk about another priesthood at all? We wouldn’t even need that other priesthood. That indicates to this author that the Levitical priesthood never did have the power to perfect. It never did have the power to fully mature going on the Greek word perfection there. But the Melchizedek priesthood order has a power to do something that the Aaronic priesthood can’t. It’s like the Levitical priesthood is the milk of chapter 6, and the Melchizedek priesthood is the meat of chapter 6. You can’t stay on the milk forever. It doesn’t have the power to make you a strong human being. Eventually you need the protein. So that’s the dichotomy between the two priesthoods that he’s setting up here.

  00:56:16 “For,” verse 12, “if the priesthood being changed, is made of necessity a change also of the law.” So he goes on to say… And this is where he says verse 14, Look, I recognize the Lord Jesus is, he’s of Judah, whatever, but that’s why he’s of this other order, the order of Melchizedek, and you can read it. One is the carnal commandments, verse 16, but the other is the power of eternal life. This author connects carnal commandments, kind of the routine of the sacrificial system and the routines of the religious structure of Pentateuchal law. That’s the Levitical system. Those are the carnal commandments. But after the other order is the power of endless life that is without beginning of days, without end of years, without genealogy, without descendants. It’s everlasting eternal power and life. And that’s the priesthood that we are talking about here.

  00:57:01 By the way, if we pause at this stage, this is going to be where you’ll see a lot of conceptual conversation between Hebrew 7 and Doctrine and Covenants 84. When you talk about the difference between a Levitical priesthood and a Melchizedek priesthood, Joseph is drawing a lot of language through the revelation process from this passage. The Levitical priesthood is a carnal priesthood. It’s the entryway, it’s the gate, it’s the baptism, it’s the faith, repentance, and baptism, but it’s the Melchizedek priesthood, the greater priesthood that has the power of eternal life. It has the power to make one kings and priests or queens and priestesses unto God. It’s a totally different priesthood power that’s more into the eternities as opposed to the earthly structures and scaffolding that we see down here. The earthly shadows that we see down here. That’s the difference for this author between Levitical priesthood and Melchizedek priesthood. Jesus is of the latter order.

Hank Smith: 00:57:51 This is fantastic, but for these people is Melchizedek’s this enigmatic figure that was mentioned once or twice in the Old Testament, and they don’t know who he is. They don’t know much about him, and yet this author of the Hebrews is saying, let’s focus in on this person who’s only mentioned a couple of times in our scripture and really understand him.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:58:17 That’s right. That’s what this author is doing, and he feels like he needs to because of the obvious point. Jesus is not a Levite. So how can you say he’s a high priest if he’s not a Levite? Well, let’s explore this more enigmatic figure, Melchizedek. Psalm 110, a priest after the order of Melchizedek. That’s the reason why the author seems to be expanding upon this very enigmatic Old Testament character in a way that is really, really interesting.

Hank Smith: 00:58:40 Yeah. It’s really fascinating that he’s bringing this man up and saying he actually had a really important role. He’s much more important than maybe we thought he was.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:58:52 Yeah, exactly. Well, and like I said earlier, though, there is some precedence for this, and that is if we look at the Dead Sea Scroll community, that’s at least one other community who also took that enigmatic character of Melchizedek and even turned him into a future Messianic figure of some kind. The ultimate eternal jubilee is going to be brought in by a Melchizedek figure when he returns again. So, this would not be the only community in first century Judaism who is interested in Melchizedek and what Melchizedek could represent. The Dead Sea Scrolls are doing that to a small degree, but this author is clearly taking it in a very Christological direction saying, let’s talk about Melchizedek in that order in terms of Jesus and he being part of that order.

Hank Smith: 00:59:31 I love the connection you’re making to Joseph Smith and his revelations that he’s drawing off of this idea that there’s a higher priesthood than the Levitical priesthood that functioned throughout the Old Testament.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 00:59:42 Exactly. But in some ways, it’s almost like the difference between the ward level of being Latter-day Saints and the temple level of being Latter-day Saints. The ward level, it’s a very Aaronic priesthood structure, it’s an Aaronic priesthood bishop who presides over Aaronic priesthood baptisms and Aaronic priesthood sacraments is passed by Aaronic priesthood deacons. It’s a very Aaronic priesthood organ. But then you go to the temple and that is the greater Melchizedek priesthood organ of the church. That’s where the powers to leave the milk… Not to leave the milk, but to build upon the milk and add the meat by going through a priesthood that can bring perfection. The Levitical priesthood was never meant to bring perfection. It’s a gateway. It’s the shadow of the heavenly reality, but the greater priesthood is the heavenly reality that can bring perfection, that has the power to make one a king and a priest like Melchizedek was and has the power to bring unto eternal life.

  01:00:36 So it’s almost like the way that Joseph Smith built upon these categories that Hebrews is exploring here in a first century Jewish context. It’s like Joseph Smith takes those categories and through the revelation process, expands them into two different levels of what it even means to be a Latter-day Saint. I think it’s kind of cool.

Hank Smith: 01:00:54 Yeah, it’s fantastic. Matt. Let me read a quote from Joseph Smith and see what you think of it. Joseph Smith says, “What was the power of Melchizedek? It was not the priesthood of Aaron, which administers in outward ordinances and the offering of sacrifices. Those holding the fullness of the Melchizedek priesthood are kings and priests of the Most High God, holding the keys of power and blessings. In fact, this priesthood is a perfect law of theocracy and stands as God to give the laws to the people administering endless lives to the sons and daughters of Adam. Abraham says to Melchizedek, ‘I believe all that thou hast taught me concerning the priesthood and the coming of the Son of Man.’ So Melchizedek ordained Abraham and sent him away. Abraham rejoiced saying, ‘Now I have a priesthood.’ The keys of the priesthood then continued through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim, and so on through the centuries down to the time of Moses.” Any thoughts on that?

Dr. Matthew Grey: 01:01:50 No, I think that’s a fascinating quote. I think that’s reflecting the ways in which Joseph and his own revelatory framework is engaging with this biblical material. So, in Hebrews 5, 6 and 7, we get the idea that there are these two priesthoods. One can’t bring perfection, the other can. One is based on lineage, the other is not. And constantly comparing the reality versus the shadow, the heavenly priesthood versus the earthly type of that. Joseph clearly is engaging with this material. So, in his own revelatory process of section 84, section 107, that quote that you just read, he’s clearly building upon this structure, these categories that Hebrews is laying out, and he’s now envisioning what that looks like on an ecclesiastical level for modern Latter-day Saints. So, I think the way that modern Latter-day Saints would envision Melchizedek and Levitical or Aaronic priesthood has its roots right here.

  01:02:40 And then it’s further extrapolated upon by Joseph’s revelatory process where he’s now envisioning how does Levitical or Aaronic priesthood function? And we see a lot of that at the ward level in our modern community. How does Melchizedek priesthood function? We see a lot of that in the temple endowment experience where we have a priesthood there that has the power to bring you into the presence of God, that has the power to part the veil, that has the power to bring one into full maturity and perfection in the Greek sense there. That has the power to make one kings and priests, queens and priestesses as some of the revelations indicates. So, I think that Joseph is building upon a really cool foundation of Hebrews here and then filling it out for a Latter-day Saint context through his own revelations in a way that we can, I think greatly learn from.

  01:03:23 As modern Latter-day Saints, I would just encourage us in that process to be very clear about our sources. What does Hebrews say? How does it say it? What’s the cultural context in which Hebrews would articulate those categories. And then be able to articulate for ourselves, okay, how did Joseph draw upon, build upon those images, expand upon them? And just for the sake of literacy, being able to note what is what, but clearly these are all part of the same conversation for us. And so I just think it’s fascinating to see Hebrews maybe be the first Christian voice in the first century to articulate something along these lines and one of the only voices. We don’t get a lot of this in early Christianity. We don’t get many people building on this in the first centuries of Christianity, but here we have it in Hebrews 5 through 7. It’s a text that we as Latter-day Saints clearly need to be more familiar with. We need to be more conversant in this, and hopefully this conversation is helpful in some of those ways.

  01:04:13 But the way chapter seven ends now that we’ve again asserted the superiority of Jesus’s priesthood, we’ve shown the limits of the Levitical priesthood, we’ve explored what it means to be a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. His concluding thoughts on Jesus’s priesthood, the idea of Jesus as our great eternal high priest, we can see at the end of chapter 7. Let’s just read a few verses together, chapter 7, maybe starting in verse 22. “By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament, a better covenant.” There’s another covenant here. This language seems to be drawing upon Jeremiah 31. Remember, Jeremiah had this idea that there would be a new covenant one day, and this author seems to suggest that the Melchizedek priestly powers and order of Jesus is that new covenant. It is that New Testament. It’s the surety of a better testament that Jeremiah was talking about. So, he’s still very much trying to draw upon Old Testament images here.

  01:05:07 And he goes on to say, “And they truly were many priests.” In the Levitical system, there were lots of different priests because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death. In other words, earthly priests died. They lived out their life of priestly service as a human being, and then they died and that was it. But this man, Jesus, the superior high priest, because he continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. So again, it’s the eternal nature of the Melchizedek order of priesthood this author is interested in, as opposed to the earth bound, genealogy bound priesthood of the Levites, of the Pentateuch.

  01:05:39 Then he concludes by saying verse 25, “Wherefore,” because of the eternal nature of this endless priest and endless priesthood of Jesus, “Wherefore, Jesus, our great high priest,” verse 25, “is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God through him.” He has the power to actually save, to actually redeem, to actually atone, to actually reconcile. “Seeing that he lives to make intercession for them forever.” So, he is our constant high priest, has the eternal power to make that intercession. And so if we come unto him, he has the power to save us to the uttermost. I love that. To the absolute fullest extent.

  01:06:18 And then he concludes by saying in verse 26, “For such a high priest,” the great high priest, Jesus, “became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who needs not daily, as those high priests do, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s. He did his once, and when he offered up himself. For the law makes men high priests which have infirmities; but the word of the oath,” the Melchizedek priesthood that we’re talking about here, “which was since the law, makes the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.”

  01:06:52 There’s some really powerful ideas here, and I love that. But I hope this has been helpful. Lots of gems along the way, and as long as you can take the time to slowly unpack the logic and with a good study Bible, maybe see how he’s interacting with the Old Testament. This goes from being a very confusing book to one of your favorites in the New Testament.

Hank Smith: 01:07:09 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:07:10 This is so helpful. This is the view from 30,000 feet. Jesus is greater than the angels. He’s greater than Moses. He’s greater than the high priest. He has a greater priesthood than Aaronic or Levitical priesthood. And coming up his sacrifice is greater, and therefore, because he did this once and offered up himself, we can come boldly to the throne of grace. That’s a great name, the throne of grace. So, so good. Thank you so much, Matt. This is just wonderful. I get this so much better than I was trying to plow through this just going, “What?” So thank you, Matt.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 01:07:47 I’m glad that’s helpful.

Hank Smith: 01:07:49 Matt, let’s say I’m a listener. I’m on my commute. I’ve listened to you on my way to work and my way home, and then I’m getting out of my car to head inside. What do you hope that that listener would’ve seen or what they’ll see differently or feel differently about?

Dr. Matthew Grey: 01:08:05 Yeah, that’s a great question. I hope that they’re coming out of the car, thinking about Hebrews and its contribution to Christianity. We get so many of our foundational ideas as Jesus followers, as Christians from this text, and those can be very transformative. I am someone who thoroughly enjoys traditions of ancient Judaism. I resonate personally a lot with Paul. I love Paul’s message of ancient Judaism being part of a larger covenant, that the Christian message is simply expanding and just bringing in other people as well, kind of like the Third Isaiah material does. So, I really resonate with that in my soul.

  01:08:41 With Hebrews, I also appreciate the message of what this author is trying to do, which is saying that we don’t need to feel drawn to some of the institutions of the past as Jesus followers. We don’t need to feel drawn to the Levitical priesthood system or to the sacrificial system because we do have something that takes us to another level. And this is kind of what sets us apart as Jesus followers, and that is that we have a heavenly high priest who brings us that ultimate true mediation. I love the picture that this author has painted. He wants us to envision Jesus dressed in the priestly garments, standing in front of the veil, offering the prayer that would part that veil and bring us into God’s presence so that we can have complete confidence and boldly go into the presence of God ourselves through our mediator, Jesus. And as the discussion we’ll have to take next week, and that we have complete confidence, complete boldness, and assurance in the salvation process because of Jesus’s one-time sacrifice.

  01:09:35 I’m actually one who does enjoy the value and the power of the Old Testament priestly and temple systems, and I also as a believer in Jesus love the way this author is articulating the identity of Jesus, the power of Jesus, the divinity of Jesus, the intercessory role of Jesus. So as a believer, those are things that are very meaningful to me.

Hank Smith: 01:09:52 Oh, what a good day. Man, what a good day.

John Bytheway: 01:09:56 Made a lot of notes today that are going to help me.

Hank Smith: 01:10:00 I feel like the Book of Hebrews is clear to me now, much more clear than it was before Matt explained it. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:10:06 Yeah. I’ve really been fed today. That was really good.

Hank Smith: 01:10:09 Matt, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Matthew Grey: 01:10:11 Well, thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Hank Smith: 01:10:13 We have loved this. We want to thank Dr. Matthew Grey for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen; our sponsors, David & Verla Sorensen; and we always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to be in the second half of Hebrews on followHIM.

  01:10:31 Today’s transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free, and we’d love for you to share it with your family and friends.

  01:10:48 We’d like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come, Follow Me study. If you could subscribe to rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 01:11:10 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.