John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Mary Jane Woodger. First Corinthians chapters 8 through 13.

Hank Smith: 00:07 What’s next, Mary Jane, on our list of spiritual gifts?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 00:10 12:9. “To another faith by the same spirit, another gift of healing by the same spirit, faith to heal and be healed.” I would say in our generation, there’s a relationship between faith and the priesthood, gifts to have faith to heal or be healed. Increasing our faith, the Lord is willing and able to heal us through the administration of the priesthood. And so we have Elder Oaks that says, “In emergencies, prayers and blessings come first, but most often we pursue all efforts simultaneously.” And then of course, he said, this is Elder Oaks again. “We must always remember the faith and the healing power of the priesthood cannot produce a result contrary to the will of him whose priesthood it is.”

John Bytheway: 00:55 Captain Moroni sent spies to follow the camp of Malachi and he sent people to go ask the prophet where they would show up. I love that he did both.

Hank Smith: 01:05 We’ve talked on the podcast before about gift of healing and then Elder Bednar’s faith to not be healed to another faith by the same spirit, to another, the gifts of healing by the same spirit.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 01:18 This is President Kimball. “Too frequent administrations may be an indication of a lack of faith or if the ill one is trying to pass the responsibility for faith development to the elders rather than themself.” He told about this faithful sister who received a priesthood blessing and when she was asked the next day if she wished to be ministered to again, she replied, “No, I’ve been anointed and administered to. The ordinance has been performed. It’s up to me now to claim my blessing through that faith.”

John Bytheway: 01:51 I remember President Oaks giving a talk about that which was so incredibly helpful. I remember him talking about Jesus saying, “Thy faith hath made thee whole.” It was just what you were saying, Mary Jane, that it was up to her now. The person pronouncing the blessing, that can be a very nerve-wracking, humbling experience, but the faith of the person receiving the blessing is what President Oaks emphasized.

Hank Smith: 02:16 Yeah.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 02:17 12:10. “To another, the working of miracles. To another, prophecy. To another, discerning of spirits. To another, diverse kinds of tongues. Another, the interpretation of tongues.” He kind of groups all those real fast.

Hank Smith: 02:29 Yes. This is where it’s getting back to what you said. This is illustrative and not comprehensive. He’s trying to list off a bunch maybe so people can go, oh, there are lots.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 02:38 Yeah. Paul is just listing all those together to get us to think about the different kinds of gifts that there are. I think Elder Ashton did the same thing when he gave that list about the gift to laugh, the gift to smile, the gift to cry.

Hank Smith: 02:54 To weep, to avoid contention. I have it right in front of me. The gift of being agreeable, the gift of avoiding vain repetition. I remember you talking about that. The gift of seeking righteousness, the gift of not passing judgment. The gift of being a disciple, the gift of caring for others. The ability to ponder, the gift of ponder. To offer prayer, to bear mighty testimony.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 03:15 And I think Paul, after he lists those, notice then he says, okay, “But covet earnestly the best gifts and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.” So, we might say, what are the best gifts and how am I supposed to determine what gift I really desire? And of course, we need to ask for spiritual gifts, but sometimes we’re like a little child who’s so scared when he sits on Santa Claus’s lap that we forget to ask for anything. Bruce R. McConkie said, “We are commanded to seek the gifts of spirit. If we do not do so, we are not walking in the course which is pleasing to Him, whose gifts they are.” Moroni put it this way. He said, “Lay hold upon every good gift.” How do you covet the gifts? How do you lay hold of them? You just ask for them.

  04:11 And then we come back to, so what are the best ones? What should I desire the most? It depends on your circumstances. Here’s George Q. Cannon, and I love this. He says, “How many of you are seeking for those gifts that God has promised to bestow? How many of you, when you bow before your heavenly Father in your family circle, in your secret places contend for these gifts to be distilled upon you? How many of you ask the Father in the name of Jesus to manifest Himself to you through these powers and these gifts? Or do you go along day by day like a door turning on its hinges without having any feeling upon the subject, without exercising any faith whatsoever, just being content to be baptized, to be members of the church and rest there thinking that your salvation is secure because you’ve done this? If any of you are imperfect, it is your duty to pray for the gift that will make us perfect. Have I imperfections? I’m full of them. What is my duty? To pray to God to give me the gifts that will correct my imperfections.”

Hank Smith: 05:14 That’s fantastic and I think one thing that maybe Paul is trying to teach and Elder Cannon there is that the Lord is anxious to give these gifts, wants to give these gifts, but maybe we don’t ask, we don’t seek.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 05:30 I think of a great story about President Grant again. He was on the pulpit, not the pulpit, what do they call that one? He was on the stand and he saw his brother, Fred, who was totally inactive walk in. And so President Grant is supposed to get up and give his sermon and he said, “Okay, there’s Fred. I’ve never seen him at general conference before.” And he said he prayed, of course, this is a prayer in the heart. “Heavenly Father, I’ve really got to reach Fred and I don’t think I can do it by myself. I need the gift of being able to speak beyond my natural ability.” He got up to talk and he said, “I completely forgot about my sermon.” He said, “I have no idea what I said, but I did not give the sermon that I had planned.” And he sat down and he said, President Grant said, “I put my head in my hands and I wept like a baby.”

  06:27 And the next day, Fred came into his office and said, “Heber, I was at conference yesterday.” He said, “I know. I don’t think you’ve ever come to general conference before.” And Fred said, “Oh yeah, I come all the time. I slip into the gallery and then I leave before.” He said, “Oh, well then you’ve heard me speak before.” And he said, “Yeah, I have, Heber, but I’ve never heard you speak like you spoke yesterday.” And then he used the same words. “Yesterday, you spoke beyond your natural ability.”

  06:58 The Sister Holland, who we just lost, at one time, said that Satan is executing a full-blown blitz, waging war against Latter-day Saint women. And she said, “All that Satan can wield is minuscule in comparison to a woman or man of God who possesses spiritual gifts.” President Nelson recently said, “Satan and his minions will constantly contrive. Roadblocks prevent you from understanding the spiritual gifts with which you have been and can be blessed.”

Hank Smith: 07:34 Interestingly, she talked about in that talk, if I remember right, having the courage to be imperfect. She said, “If I were Satan, I would keep women so distraught and distracted that they would never find calming strength and serenity, catching them in the crunch of trying to be superhuman instead of realistically striving to reach their individual purpose and unique God-given potential. We must have the courage to be imperfect.” I like that.

John Bytheway: 08:03 Maybe that’s a gift too, being able to be settled and to know I’m on the path, I’m doing the best I can. I’m on the covenant path. I’m not perfect, but I’m on and I’m continuing. Maybe that’s a gift to be able to feel settled in that.

Hank Smith: 08:21 As you mentioned Sister Holland, Mary Jane, I thought of, it’s kind of a long quote from her that really impacted me because sometimes I look around and I look at other people with their spiritual gifts and I think I should probably be more like him. I need to be more like him or why can’t I have that gift like she does? And you can get caught up in that almost the comparison of spiritual gifts and here’s what she said. “For many years, I tried to measure the oft times quiet, reflective, thoughtful Pat Holland against the robust, bubbly, talkative, and energetic Jeff Holland and others with like qualities.” She says, “I have learned through several fatiguing failures that you can’t have joy in being bubbly if you’re not a bubbly person. It is a contradiction in terms. I have given up seeing myself as a flawed person because my energy level is lower than Jeff’s and I don’t talk as much as he does, nor as fast.

  09:21 Giving this up has freed me to embrace and rejoice in my own manner and personality in the measure of my creation. Ironically, that has allowed me to admire and enjoy Jeff’s”, and she uses a word I don’t know here, “buoyance, even more. Somewhere somehow the Lord blipped the message onto my screen that my personality was created to fit precisely the mission and talents He gave me. For example, the quieter, calmer talent of playing the piano reveals much about the real Pat Holland. I would never have learned to play the piano if I hadn’t enjoyed the long hours of solitude required for its development. This same principle applies to my love of writing, reading, meditation, and especially teaching and talking with my children.

  10:07 Miraculously, I have found that I have untold abundant sources of energy to be myself, but the moment I indulge in imitation of my neighbor, I feel fractured and fatigued and find myself forever swimming upstream. When we frustrate God’s plan for us, we deprive this world and God’s kingdom of our unique contributions and a serious schism settles in our soul. God never gave us any task beyond our ability to accomplish it. We just have to be willing to do it our own way. We’ll always have enough resources for being who we are and what we can become.” Isn’t that beautiful the way she was vulnerable then?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 10:48 Never heard that before.

Hank Smith: 10:49 Yeah, she said I’m not like Jeff, but that’s okay. He’s not like me and that’s okay.

John Bytheway: 10:56 Pat also talked once about reading her daughter, Mary’s journal and I am not sure exactly what the activities were, but she said, “I tried to play the piano and I couldn’t. I tried to do a dance and it was horrid”, she said. “And I tried to draw a picture and it was terrible. And I said”, it was her little brother, was it, “Matt, what can I do? What can I be?” And he said, “You can be my sister. That’s a gift.”

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 11:22 Yeah, I like that. Love that.

Hank Smith: 11:24 Mary Jane, I’ve noticed next that as Paul goes through these spiritual gifts, he then talks about how every gift is needed to be part of this body of Christ. Am I getting that right?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 11:37 I think he is comparing those spiritual gifts to the body parts and that they’re all needed. And also, there’s an interesting phenomenon because you would think as different people exhibit different spiritual gifts that exhibiting all these spiritual gifts would divide us. Instead, amazingly, they unify us even as the different body parts become one whole human being.

Hank Smith: 12:09 Interestingly, doesn’t he compare, like the foot doesn’t say I am not the hand, so I am not of the body. The foot feels bad that it’s not a hand. He then does the same thing with the ear and the eye. The ear is like, “I am not the eye so I don’t belong here.” He says, “If the whole body were an eye, how would we hear?” I think there’s two ways we could mess this up. One is when we think we need to be like someone else and the other one would be when we think other people need to be like us. I think we could get into trouble thinking everyone needs to be like me. Any thoughts on that?

John Bytheway: 12:48 When I was first called to be a bishop, I thought I had to be a bishop. I had to get into this role. One night, the Lord called me and the best me I can be is still me and so I’ll bring what I have to this type of a thing. It was, I think, an important moment for me. And everyone’s different. My wife and I were talking about how some church leaders in general conference have the gift to weep. Some I’ve never seen weep who speak a lot and that’s okay. We all bring something different. So somebody once said harmony is being different together. And so I like that idea with Paul’s analogy here of the body. We need everybody, but we’re all different.

Hank Smith: 13:35 I think you’re right, John. This is just like a choir. I think it was Elder Holland who described the church as a choir. And Mary Jane, if you’ll comment on this, let me read what he said. “On those days when we feel a little out of tune, a little less than we think we see or hear in others, I would ask, especially the youth of the church, to remember it is by divine design that not all the voices in God’s choir are the same. It takes variety, sopranos and altos, baritones and basses to make rich music. To borrow a line quoted in the cheery correspondence of two remarkable Latter-day Saint women, ‘All God’s critters got a place in the choir.’ When we disparage our uniqueness or try to conform to a fictitious stereotype, stereotypes driven by an insatiable consumer culture and idealized beyond our possible realization by social media, we lose the richness of tone and timbre that God intended when He created a world of diversity.”

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 14:35 I think especially among Latter-day Saint women, there is this idea of the superwoman and that there’s a stereotype. What is successful in being an LDS woman? And of course, one of those is that she’s married and she’s a mother. I think that being single in the church sometimes because you’re not the stereotypical Latter-day Saint woman or what we think of as being such, that you think you don’t belong.

Hank Smith: 15:04 You’re not part of the body.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 15:05 Yeah. That just is not true. I think Paul’s trying to say the foot might not be as attractive as the eyes, but boy, try and get along without a foot. I remember moving into a ward and having my home teacher come for the first time. He brought his wife and she turned to me and she said, “So you’re not married and you don’t have children, so what do you have?” I said, “I got nothing. I guess I got nothing.”

Hank Smith: 15:36 What do you have?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 15:39 So I especially can’t tell you how grateful I am for President Nelson. If he didn’t do anything else, his remark of telling me that I’m a mother has made all the difference in the world to me, on Mother’s Day especially. So those unique … I am a different kind of mother, but I am a mother even though I have never given birth or adopted a child. I think that’s what Paul’s saying in our congregations, in the Church of Jesus Christ, every member is necessary and brings something unique that unifies us rather than divides us.

Hank Smith: 16:23 Thank you for sharing that, Mary Jane. Sometimes it sounds like some parts of the body hurt the other parts of the body sometimes. And then Paul makes mention in verse 26. “And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it. Or when one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.” I think we could talk a long time about this. That we’re not in a competition with one another, we are a team.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 16:53 I think when you said that, Hank, I thought about our great colleague, Fred Woods. Anytime something happens great in my career, he will write me or email me or call me and he’ll use that verse. And he’ll say, “You did such an incredible thing, and that brings honor on me too.” And that should be our attitude. And I think that Paul is really emphasizing that as he’s going to talk about charity in a few minutes.

Hank Smith: 17:21 We could probably do better. I know I could about cheering others on.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 17:26 Yeah, absolutely.

Hank Smith: 17:27 I was at the airport the other day and I ran into Brandon Flowers. In fact, I’ve run into him twice in my life and both times have been at the Salt Lake airport. He approached me and he said, “Hi, I’m Brandon.” And I went, “I think I know who you are.” He said, “I just love your podcast. I just think you guys are doing so much good.” In fact, John, he gave me a piece of paper where you had said something. Oh, it’s one of your favorite verses in the Doctrine & Covenants that God deals His mercies according to the-

John Bytheway: 17:56 Conditions of the children. 46:15.

Hank Smith: 17:59 Yeah, he said, “I wrote that down and shared it with my son.” He said, “And it really helped my son.” And he said, “I’ve kept that piece of paper to give it to John one day.” So he gave it to me. I’ll have to give it to you sometime.

John Bytheway: 18:13 Yeah, I’ll meet you at the airport. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 18:16 Yeah. Brandon was a great example to me of someone who is a part of our church that is doing really well, but cheers on others.

John Bytheway: 18:26 Hank, tell people why he has some notoriety, who he is, what he does.

Hank Smith: 18:31 Brandon is the lead singer for a world famous band called The Killers. Now, don’t let that turn you off. But he is especially talented, just has incredible musical gifts. And I was touched that took time for the show.

John Bytheway: 18:48 It’s always fun to discover when you find out someone like Brandon Flowers is a member of the church. I feel like that’s part of me, that’s part of you. That’s part of us. And we’re proud of him and happy for him and are glad for his influence. And as we move on, we’ve got all these spiritual gifts and a diversity of gifts and operations and all that. And then, I don’t know exactly how or who decided chapter 12 was ending and chapter 13 was started, but then Paul’s last words at the end of 12, “Now I’m going to show you a more excellent way.”

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 19:26 There are some spiritual gifts that are useful in mortality which will be useless in the eternities. For instance, when Joseph says that the Holy Ghost speaks spirit to spirit and communicates with you as if you didn’t have a physical body.

John Bytheway: 19:43 Oh wow.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 19:44 I think the gift of tongues is probably going to be obsolete. But there are three spiritual gifts that will be absolutely necessary in the eternities and they are what Elder Maxwell calls portable. We can take them with us. And of course, that is faith, hope, and charity. And notice that Paul says the same thing in First Corinthians 13:13. He says, “And now abideth faith, hope and charity.” That abideth, I think he’s saying these are different than those spiritual gifts I listed in chapter 12. So I believe that possessing those three gifts determines our self-esteem. And you might wonder if you have faith, hope, and charity.

  20:35 I believe that Moroni and Paul and Joseph Smith understood that concept as they received those revelations pertaining to spiritual gifts, is with those spiritual gifts once we’ve discovered them that we gain confidence. And the purpose of those spiritual gifts, as Elder McConkie said, is to enlighten and to edify and also so that we can have peace in this life and feel secure. President Boyd K. Packer said this, “If you learn and earnestly seek the gifts of the spirit, then you will be competent. The problems will be there, but you will find great solace and comfort and great power will be with you all of the time.” That says self-esteem to me.

  21:24 And so that’s all he spends on faith and hope. And then the rest of chapter 13, he’s going to talk about charity. He says, “And now abideth faith, hope and charity. These three, but the greatest of these is charity.” I never read Corinthians 13 that I don’t think about President Eyring. I believe this is where President Eyring’s favorite scriptures are. And I’ll tell you why. Elder Eyring grew up in New Jersey before the law wouldn’t allow this. Three things happened at the first of every school day. One, they pledged allegiance to the flag. Two, they had a prayer. And three, they read a scripture verse out of the Bible.

  22:10 And for Hal Eyring, he always did the same verse. So every 25 days when it was his turn, the kids would go, “Oh, here we go again. Hal, are you going to give us the same one?” Yeah. And so he would start out and the rest of the class would repeat it with him. And what did he always quote? “Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am become as a sounding brass or a tinkling symbol. And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains and have not charity, I am nothing.”

  22:47 Now, why, as a little boy, did he do that? Here’s his words. He says, “By the time I read the first few words, the feeling would come back. The feeling was not just that the words were true, but they were about some better world I wanted with all my heart to live in. For me, the feeling was even more specific and I knew it did not come from within me. It was that there would or could be some better life and that it would be in a family I would someday have. In that then distant future, I would be able to live with people in some better kinder way beyond even the best and kindest world I had known as a boy.”

  23:31 He then says, “I didn’t tell anybody about that.” That’s not what little boys talk about. You might say that someday you want to be the pitcher on the World Series team, but you didn’t tell them that someday you wanted to have a home where you felt like you felt when you read First Corinthians 13, one and two. I love that. And Elder Eyring said that he came to Salt Lake because they didn’t have a stake in New Jersey when he was growing up. So he had to come to Salt Lake to get his patriarchal blessing. And he said that the patriarch, as he was giving his blessing, started to talk about the home he would someday have with his future wife, Kathleen. And he said, “I had the same feeling wash over me.”

  24:18 And I’ll give you one more. And then he sees, he’s our oldest apostle to marry at the age of 29 and he said when he first saw Kathleen, he saw her walk. They were the Cathedral of the Pines and he just saw her walk and he said, “I had the same feeling wash over me.” So that First Corinthians scripture is important to Elder Eyring. I don’t know if you do this, Hank, but I have my students write research papers on gospel topics and a lot of times they’ll choose charity. Always they will equate charity with service and they will say, “If you serve, then you have charity.” And I will write back. “Charity always involves serving, but serving doesn’t always involve charity.” Because you can serve without being charitable. I’ve done it a lot.

  25:08 The other misconception they’ll write is they’ll say, “Here’s how you can develop charity.” And I will write, “You cannot develop charity. It is a gift.” Here’s what Elder Holland said. “Mormon explicitly taught that this love, this ability, capacity, and reciprocation we also want is a gift. It is bestowed. That is Mormon’s word. It doesn’t come without effort and it doesn’t come without patience, but like salvation itself, in the end, it is a gift given by God to the true followers of His son, Jesus Christ. The solutions to life’s problems are always gospel solutions. Not only are answers found in Christ, but so is the power, the gift, the bestowal, the miracle of giving and receiving those answers,” from Elder Holland.

  26:02 And then Paul goes on to say, “Though I have the gift of prophecy.” In other words he’s saying, though I have one of these gifts that I talked about in section 12, “and I understand all mysteries and all knowledge”, there’s another one, the gift of knowledge, “and though I have all faith so I could even remove a mountain and I have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor”, there’s the service idea, “and though I give my body to be burned and I have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.”

Hank Smith: 26:38 Those are some pretty incredible things that he’s saying.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 26:41 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 26:42 And he’s like, they don’t do you any good. I’d like to have all knowledge. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 26:47 I’d like to remove a few mountains.

Hank Smith: 26:50 Yeah.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 26:50 “Wherefore my beloved brethren, if you have not charity, you are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore cleaveth unto charity, which is the greatest gift of all for all things must fail, but charity is the pure love of Christ and endure forever and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with them. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all energy of heart that you may be filled with this love which He hath bestowed upon all of you who are true followers of His son, Jesus Christ, that you may become the sons of God, that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is, that we may have this hope that we may be purified even as He is pure.”

  27:38 Charity is not something that we develop. Charity is a gift that comes through earnest supplication. And then Paul says this. “Charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail and whether there should be tongues, they cease.” He’s talking again about those gifts that he talked about in section 12. “Whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” Charity never fails. We can fail charity, but charity never fails us. Many gifts are going to be obsolete in the Celestial kingdom, but charity love or loving sealed relationships, those will not fail.

  28:17 When I write all over those student papers on gospel topics of charity, charity is a gift. It’s not achievement. You can achieve an MBA, you can work for a commission. You can have a nicer yard than your neighbors through your own efforts, but you cannot achieve charity on your own. Here’s President Nelson. In the most recent Peacemakers Needed. “Charity is the antidote to contention. Charity is the spiritual gift that helps us to cast off the natural man who is selfish, defensive, prideful, and jealous. Charity is the principle characteristic of a true follower of Jesus Christ. Charity defines a peacemaker.”

  28:59 I would say it’s a gift and I don’t think we get that and I’ve thought, what kind of receiver does the Lord like to give the gift of charity to? And I’ve thought of myself as a gift-giver. I have one friend I love to give gifts to. Whenever I give her gifts, she just raves and goes on and on about it. If I give her a piece of clothing, she makes sure she wears it around me and she says, “You are the best gift giver.” I have another friend I hate to give gifts to. Her birthday comes around and I just go, “Oh, no.” It doesn’t matter what I give her, she never mentions it. She never talks about it. She never uses it. Even if I’ve watched her in a store and she said, “Oh, I want that”, and I’ve gotten it for her, she-

Hank Smith: 29:43 She just doesn’t like it.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 29:45 There’s no gratitude. And so I’ve thought, I bet the Lord really likes to give charity to people who acknowledge it and express gratitude for it. I think gratitude is a key to receiving that gift of charity. So, the synonym is a gift and the commodity is gratitude, but the antonym is always jealousy for charity. I used to think that the great antonym, the opposite of charity was hate. It is not. It is not. It is jealousy. Implicit in that jealousy is the assumption that God is unjust. He is un-noticing, he is partial and he’s a respecter of persons. It partakes of pride and jealousy always signifies insecurity, which is one of those I’s which I talk about.

  30:43 Women and men who are jealous will feel frightened and threatened and seek to find replicas of themselves in order to feel validated. That’s why Paul says, “Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.” Jealousy is alive and well in our families, in the church, in our Relief Societies, in our wards, in our priesthood quorums. A jealous person pits their intellect, opinion, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly major device against others. Coining the words of C.S. Lewis, “Jealousy gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. It is in the comparison that makes you proud, the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition is gone, jealousy is gone.”

  31:41 Satan has blocked our increasing efforts to love God, our neighbors, and ourselves. In the last century, Satan has enticed all humanity to engage all of their energy instead of in the pure love of Christ, which is charity, in romantic love, thing love, or excessive self-love instead of the pure love of Christ. And paying attention to Satan’s counterfeit, we sometimes forget self-love and self-esteem are promised rewards for putting others first. The desire to serve others comes directly from the gift of charity. Charity initiates all the other spiritual qualities.

  32:24 Brigham Young said this. “There is one virtue, attribute, or principle which if cherished and practiced by the Latter-day Saints, would prove salvation to thousands upon thousands. I allude to charity, to love, from which proceed, forgiveness, long-suffering, kindness, and patience.” Those attributes or personality characteristics that Brigham Young lists above are sometimes mistaken for charity. They’re not the gift, rather, they’re the result of the possession of the gift.

  32:57 Those who possess such qualities are displaying charity. Those characteristics, again, are not something we develop. Rather, they are the fruits of charity. Many of us seek the fruits of charity, yet we find they are elusive. Why? Because I don’t know what’s going to happen to me during the average day. I don’t know if some inept sales clerk is going to drive me crazy or if I’m going to go into irritation because somebody pulls out in front of me. And my response should be, I need to get on my knees every morning and beg the Lord for charity. And then at the end of the day when I’ve been blessed with the gift of charity, when I’ve gone to the bookstore and the sales clerk has been with me for 25 minutes and charged my card three times and I was patient and I go, “Oh, heavenly Father, aren’t I amazing that I developed patience?”

  33:52 No, I gave you the gift of charity. When Paul says, “If I have charity, I am nothing.” I don’t think he meant that we are worthless. Even the wicked, most vile human being is valued by our heavenly Father. The worth of souls is great in the sight of God. Paul meant, I believe, if you do not have charity and only think about yourself, you will feel like nothing. Meekness is not being proud or self-concerned. Indeed, the faults display of humility or the world’s counterfeit. Most self-concerned people who are full of self-pity, the attitude of woe is me, leaves little room to think of others. The humble seldom think of themselves at all.

  34:42 Paul uses another word describing meek as those who are not puffed up. This is Elder Holland talking about being puffed up. Haven’t you ever been with someone who was so conceited, so full of themselves that they seem like the Pillsbury Doughboy? You know, the kind. Such a fellow walks down lover’s lane holding his own hand. True love, in fact, all love blooms when we care more about another person than we care about ourselves. We need to stress with our children. I used to teach Home Ec and they had this self-esteem unit where I was supposed to teach the students, you are lovable and capable. I would teach instead, you are loved and grateful. Not you are special, but rather you are special to Jesus Christ.

John Bytheway: 35:31 I love that, Mary Jane. I mean, Moses did this. Enoch did this. I can’t do this, I can’t do this. And the Lord didn’t say, you’re great, you’re special, you’re awesome. The Lord said, “I will be with thee.” It’s kind of what you’re saying. Yeah, it’s okay. I will be with thee. That was what he needed more than, you’re great, you’re awesome, you’re special. It was, don’t worry. I’m right here. I love that.

Hank Smith: 35:53 And Mary Jane, it seems that Paul, at least what I’m learning here from you and Paul is that my priority has to be charity. It has to be my priority over any other spiritual gift.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 36:09 Yeah, absolutely.

John Bytheway: 36:11 I’ve wondered if the reason that this starts with, though I speak with the tongues of men and angels, because tongues was such an outward, visible spiritual gift that maybe he’s starting with that and saying, listen, don’t think that the gift of tongues is the best one. If I speak with the tongue of men and angels and have not charity-

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 36:33 I think it’s interesting that Joseph Smith said it was the least. Joseph Smith said, “There’s two gifts of the spirit that are most visible, the gift of tongues and prophecy.” But he said the gift of the tongues is the least among the spiritual gifts.

John Bytheway: 36:50 But it might be the most visible and the one that might say, look at me or something. And so I love that Paul’s saying, wait a minute, let me show you the more excellent way here. It’s not tongues.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 37:01 It’s definitely charity. And I think that’s why he lists that one specifically. In this list of synonyms and antonyms that Elder Maxwell gives, he says, “Okay, we are to be patient. We’re not to be hectic, hurried, pushy, intolerant of ineptness.” Suffering long is a gift for me. I am not a normally patient, deliberate, or slow person. As a little girl, I bit into that Tootsie Roll pop. When I eat ice cream cones, I don’t lick them, I gulp them. I am at my worst in a long line. My natural tendency is to be pushy and I am usually hectic, hurried, and late. My behavior is characteristic of the society around me. We drive down the street with a cell phone in our ear and that’s not the way of charity.

  37:55 God constantly reinforces the principle of suffering long in our lives. You cannot have charity without exhibiting being patient. We’re to be full of love. Elder Maxwell says, “We are not to be demanding, dominating, harsh, manipulative, or condescending.” Satan’s counterfeits of being full of love are being executed in precision. Our society is not full of love, it’s full of lust. I recently visited some European countries where acceptance of the gospel is diminishing. They’re combining missions rather than creating new ones. And I said to one of the mission presidents, “Why is this trend happening?” And he said, “It’s no wonder conversions are so difficult. The very air of our country is permeated with pornography.”

  38:45 We’re to be gentle. We are not to be coarse or brusque or vindictive. We’re not to be easily provoked. Elder Holland says, “The maturity of charity is exhibited in gentleness. We are to seek, if not her own or be easily entreated. We are not to be unapproachable, inaccessible, non-listening or over talkative. Entreat means to ask earnestly or to implore, to ask others about themselves and gain knowledge about them. Someone who seeketh not her own cuts down on verbalism. How can we become like our Father in heaven and the Savior if we’re poor listeners?” Elder Maxwell said, “Many of us do what Jesus never did. We talk too much.” President Brigham Young said, “You cannot hide the heart when the mouth is open.”

Hank Smith: 39:40 That’s scary.

John Bytheway: 39:41 Yeah.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 39:42 Yeah. The easily entreated don’t multiply words. Elder Maxwell said, “Those that multiply words display a desire for more airtime. Those who are easily entreated”, he said, “are more settled in their views. They can be succinct without feeling unappreciated. They can even let someone else say what they would’ve said and still not feel left out.” I think a good barometer for the characteristic of seeking not your own is to ask, what kind of friend am I? Do I have to be hurt all the time? Do I pause once in a while? I think of first dates that I’ve been on where I could tell you the man’s entire life story and I can count the number of sentences I said on one hand.

  40:31 I think of phone calls where all I say is uh-huh. I think it’s a good barometer in our relationships is to ask ourselves, how much does the other person know about me and how much do I know about them? And if those tallies are lopsided, we need to take some action and pray for charity that will help us to have a real interest in others. A charitable person is temperate, they’re self-restrained. They’re not egotistic, eager for attention or recognition.

Hank Smith: 40:59 This has been really good for me because I keep thinking of all the people who need to hear this. I was going to share a story that’s really touched me and I would love for you to comment on it, Mary Jane. This is a talk given in October of 2006 by Robert C. Oaks. He says, “The impatient, natural man is all about us. We see it manifest in news reports of parents in a fit of rage, abusing a child even unto death. On our highways, incidents of mobile impatience or road rage result in violent accidents and sometimes fatalities. On a less dramatic but much more common level, are flared tempers, harsh words uttered in response to slow moving customer lines.” He must know you, Mary Jane. “Never-ending telephone solicitation calls or children reluctant to respond to our instructions. Does any of this sound familiar?”

  41:56 And then he tells this story. When Paul says to covet spiritual gifts, this is one suffereth long that I personally covet. He said, “Fortunately, there are seldom reported but marvelous to consider stories of great patience. Recently I attended the funeral of a lifelong friend. His son told a beautiful story of parental patience. When the son was in his youth, his dad owned a motorcycle dealership. One day when they received a shipment of shiny new motorcycles and they lined them all up in the store, the boy did what every boy would like to do and he climbed up on the closest one. He even started it up. Then when he figured he had pushed his luck far enough, he jumped off. To his dismay, his dismount knocked the first bike down. Then like a string of dominoes, they all went down one after another. His dad heard the commotion and looked out from behind the partition where he had been working, slowly smiling. He said, ‘Well son, we’d better fix one up and sell it so we can pay for the rest of them.’ I think my friend’s response personifies parental patience.”

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 43:07 Wow. Paul uses the word we are to strip ourselves. And as you look at that, it’s peeling away. It’s peeling off of those fleshy tendencies that we have of jealousy and fear and doubts as we strip away that natural man. Our heavenly Father is in it for the long haul, for all the right reasons and with all the right motivations and with the right methodology, which is charity. Charity is the most reasonable way of dealing with the human family, including dealing with our own families as Hank told that story about dealing with children. And Paul says in verse 11, “When I was a child, I spake as a child. I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things. A person who possesses charity is no longer childish. They are not immature.” In other words, they are self-aware. They know exactly how they are acting.

  44:18 We’ve all had experiences with someone and we go, someday they will see themselves as they really are. There’ll be no more facade. There’ll be no more hypocrisy. And so Paul says, “For now, we see through a glass darkly, but then face-to-face. Now, I know in part, but then I shall know even as also I am known.” In other words, people won’t be saying anymore, “Boy, I wish Mary Jane could really see what she’s really like.” What does someone who is known as they know themselves look like? Here’s Parley P. Pratt. “Their very atmosphere diffuses a thrill, a warm glow of pure godness and sympathy to the heart and nerves of others who have kindred feelings or sympathy of spirit. No matter if the parties are strangers, entirely unknown to each other in person or character, no matter if they have never spoken to each other, each will be apt to remark in his own mind and perhaps exclaim when referring to the interview, ‘Oh, what an atmosphere encircles that stranger. How my heart thrilled with pure and holy feelings in his presence. What confidence and sympathy he inspired. His countenance and spirit gave me more assurance than a thousand written recommendations or introductory letters.'” That’s what a person with charity is like. The very atmosphere around them exudes love, interest, awareness.

John Bytheway: 45:59 This is sobering to me because I feel like if what we’re talking about is a gift that God gave us, He can probably withdraw it. And if He’s given me gifts, He could take them back anytime He wants and it’s sobering. President Uchtdorf gave a talk called You Are My Hands. And he said, “True love requires action. We can speak of love all day long. We can write notes or poems that proclaim it, sing songs that praise it, preach sermons that encourage it. But until we manifest that love in action, our words are nothing but sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal”, to quote Paul in First Corinthians 13. “Christ did not just speak about love, He showed it each day of His life. He did not remove Himself from the crowd. Being amidst the people. Jesus reached out to the one. He rescued the lost. He didn’t just teach a class about reaching out in love” … Ouch, I think I’ve done that … “and then delegate the actual work to others. He not only taught, but also showed us how to succor the weak, lift up the hands which hang down and strengthen the feeble knees. Christ knows how to minister to others perfectly. When the Savior stretches out His hands, those He touches are uplifted and become greater, stronger, and better people as a result. If we are His hands, should we not do the same?”

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 47:25 Love that.

Hank Smith: 47:27 Eliza R. Snow, she wrote down something she heard Joseph Smith teach. He quotes First Corinthians 13:1. “Though I speak with the tongue of man and angels and have not charity, I become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.” And then he said, she reports, “Don’t be limited in your views with regard to your neighbor’s virtue, but beware of self-righteousness and be limited in the estimate of your own virtues and not think yourselves more righteous than others. You must enlarge your souls toward each other if you would do like Jesus and carry your fellow creatures to Abraham’s bosom.”

  48:01 This is Eliza R. Snow again. “He said he had manifested long-suffering, forbearance, and patience towards the church and also to his enemies. And we must bear with each other’s failings as an indulgent parent bears with the foibles of his children.” He read from the second verse. “Though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries, I could remove mountains and have not charity, I am nothing.” Then he says, “As you increase in innocence and virtue, as you increase in goodness, let your hearts expand. Let them be enlarged towards others and you must be long suffering and bear with the faults and errors of mankind.”

  48:41 So Mary Jane, how do I get this gift?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 48:44 From what I understand, you’ve got to pray for it.

Hank Smith: 48:46 Yeah.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 48:47 I think daily. Like I said, I don’t know what’s going to happen that day, who’s going to set me off and my natural man that comes out all the time. I think we have to pray for it and ask that it be bestowed. And then when you have received it and you witness, “Oh, that wasn’t me today. That was charity.” Then we express gratitude.

Hank Smith: 49:10 Mary Jane, this has been fantastic. I’ve learned so much and we’ve laughed a lot, which has been a lot of fun. We have listeners all over the world who are living their lives the best they can. They’re busy. They are sometimes overwhelmed by their challenges. What would you hope that they would get out of our time together today?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 49:30 I would hope that they would succeed in overcoming those I’s that I talked about today and the ones we talked about, of course, were indiscretion, being insubmissive, and above all, insecurity. It’s interesting as you look at the timing and where the spiritual gifts chapters are placed in scripture, Paul uses it as we’re heading into apostasy. Moroni is in full blown apostasy. And of course, Joseph uses it in the Doctrine & Covenants where he’s experiencing some apostasy among those early members. It would be my hope as Latter-day Saints really look at Paul and what he said in Corinthians. It will guard them against personal apostasy. I truly believe that’s one of the things those spiritual gifts do, and that’s what I would hope they would get. Not from what I’ve said, but from what Paul and Moroni and Joseph revealed.

Hank Smith: 50:31 Beautiful. John, what a great day.

John Bytheway: 50:34 Yeah, I feel motivated. I’ve got to ask more often for I think the Lord’s willing to give them. I think we need a reminder to ask for these to help us get through this world, like you said.

Hank Smith: 50:47 Yeah, plead for charity. We want to thank Dr. Mary Jane Woodger for being with us today. It’s been wonderful. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. And we always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We have another lesson coming up in First Corinthians on followHIM.

  51:11 Today’s transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free and we’d love for you to share it with your family and friends. We’d like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come, Follow Me study. If you could subscribe to rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find.

  51:38 We’ve just completed a new project we think you’ll love. If you would like short and powerful quotes and insights from all of our Old Testament episodes, join our mailing list on our website, followhim.co, and we will email you a PDF of the first three chapters of our new book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. If you enjoyed our guests on the podcast last year as much as we did, we think you’ll love this new collection. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen. We also love hearing from you, our friends and listeners.

Whitney: 52:17 Hi Hank and John and everyone over at the Follow Him Podcast family, my name is Whitney. I am a homeschooling mom of four young children. I’ve been watching you ever since the beginning back when the world was shut down and we were all in a pandemic. You were there. You came into my home and you brought light and you shared your knowledge of the gospel. And not only that, you brought these amazing scholars. I cannot believe how blessed we are that we get to listen to these people that most people have to pay hundreds of dollars to listen to. I use the followHIM podcast and YouTube video in my teaching of my children. I use it in my own life. It has inspired me to want to gain more knowledge about the scriptures. Just thank you. You have brought so much joy to my life.