John Bytheway: 00:00 Continue listening for part two with Dr. Teresa Bell, 1st Corinthians 1-7.

Hank Smith: 00:07 Teresa, anything else on verse 14? “The natural man receiveth not the Spirit of God. It’s foolishness to them.”

Dr. Teresa Bell: 00:14 Yes, and it’s hard to differentiate that from spiritual. This past week, I’ve been grading AP German exams. And there are some colleagues that I work closely with and they both know that I’m a member of the church. And they think they understand how missions and language learning work for members of the church and missionaries, and it’s really cute to hear them explain. The thing that they cannot understand is that it’s the Spirit that helps the missionaries learn languages. They’re set apart to be able to learn a language. The Spirit helps them while they’re at the MTC to learn a language. The Spirit helps them continue to learn while they’re on their missions and to be able to share the gospel with people, so that they can hear it in their own tongue. And that is something that they just don’t understand.

  00:54 Well, one of the things now is the dual language immersion classes. The students come up through the ranks and they’re pretty good and stuff. And then they take the AP exam in ninth grade, and then they’re free to not do the language anymore. But they wanted to know how that compared with missionaries before they leave the MTC, when they leave the MTC and where they are. And you can’t even compare it. It’s not even the same thing. I would try to bring up that there’s a Christlike spiritual nature about things. They just go blank. They just look at you like, “Yeah, whatever. That’s funny. That’s really cute.”

Hank Smith: 01:24 How interesting. I think I’ve seen that before too, where a miracle happens or something supernatural happens and it’s explained away. “Well, it must be this. It can’t be the Spirit. It can’t be something from God. It’s got to be something else.”

John Bytheway: 01:39 You know what I love in that same topic is that to encourage missionaries out there who are, “I’m afraid I can’t learn a language,” is section 90 verse 11, “For it shall come to pass in that day that every man shall hear the fullness of the gospel in his own tongue and in his own language through those who are ordained unto this power.” And I just think the Lord has a promise to keep. That knowledge will give you help and power that the Lord’s going to help. This is the Lord’s promise. So, he’s going to help you do this because he has a promise to keep and he’s good at keeping his promises.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 02:17 He’s really good at it. Then in verse 14, “Study and learn and become acquainted with languages, tongues and people.” It’s a commandment, not just to missionaries, but we’re all admonished to do that.

Hank Smith: 02:27 I bet that’s one of your favorites.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 02:28 Oh, you know it is. I have 9-11 marked too, one of my favorites.

Hank Smith: 02:32 Paul finishes this chapter wonderfully, “Who hath known the mind of the Lord? Who’s going to instruct him?” Who’s going to be the one to go, “You know what? I could teach you a thing or two, Jesus, about the universe, about the world.” It’s almost a mic drop moment right there where he says you can’t teach the Lord anything, so allow him to teach you. Teresa, let’s move on through these next few chapters. Where do you want to go now?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 02:56 Let’s go to chapter 3. This is another great one. This is where the milk before meat comes up in the church, and this is something that we’ve heard many times I’m sure in the church and how babies can only have milk. They can’t have meat yet. These first three verses are really kind of cool to look at. “And I brethren could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk and not with meat. For hither to, ye were not able to bear it neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal, for whereas there is among you envying and strife and divisions. Are you not carnal and walk as men?” And I love this so much, I mean, we do hear that a lot, the milk before meat kind of thing.

  03:38 But even just looking at it and comparing it into the, even as babes of Christ, we know what it means. We know what the comparison is. But to stop and think about these saints at the time. People who joined the church today, people who go a long time without immersing themselves in the gospel and trying to learn more. You have to start with the milk before you can have the meat. One of the things this reminds me of so much is the talk by Elder Corbridge, Lawrence Corbridge, do you remember this from 2020?

Hank Smith: 04:06 Stand forever?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 04:07 Yeah. Yes. Stand on the rock of revelation. That talk is so great. Where he talks about the primary and secondary questions. And this to me is exactly what he was talking about. The milk is the primary questions. And then the meat is the secondary questions, which if you understand the primary, that’s what you need to know. And once you have a grasp on that, then you are okay to learn about the more complicated secondary questions. But a lot of times it just doesn’t even matter after that.

Hank Smith: 04:36 So is Paul’s saying here, “I want to teach you more. I’ve got to give you milk now because you’re not ready for it.” Verse 3, “You’re still quite carnal. You still have a lot of envying and fighting and divisions among you. You’re still fighting over, ‘I am of Paul.’ ‘I am of Apollos.'” So, maybe he’s saying you’ve got to get over this carnal nature, at least to a certain degree, so I can teach you more.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 05:02 Yes. One thing that helps me understand the carnal too, is that it just means not having been spiritually reborn. And I mean, not just that, there’s more to it than that of course. So, that’s something that helps you. But it helps you see that. I mean, carnal sometimes sounds really, really bad, which I mean, envy and strife, divisions it is. But at the same time it’s they haven’t accepted Christ. They haven’t fully accepted Christ and that’s where for ye are yet carnal. They still are.

Hank Smith: 05:28 That’s good.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 05:29 This is actually a really important thing, and this was in the Elder Corbridge’s talk. I mean, the primary questions he asked for, is there a God who’s our Father? Is Jesus Christ son of God, the Savior of the world? Was Joseph Smith a prophet? Is the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the kingdom of God on the earth? So, those are the primary ones. And then he brings up secondary ones that are unending. And some examples are church history, plural marriage, women and the priesthood, translation of the book, I mean, on and on, and on. And then he says if you answer the primary questions, the secondary questions get answered too or they pale in significance. Answer the primary questions and you can deal with the things you understand, and the things you don’t, and with the things you agree with, and the things you don’t without jumping ship.

  06:11 It’s the eyes on Jesus. You keep coming back to what is the most important thing and these are the most important things. I mean, if Christ is the Savior, if the church is the kingdom of God on earth, if Joseph Smith was a prophet, I mean, those are the things that it really matters. And these other things are really fun, but you can go down a rabbit hole and get stuck looking for different things. And then by the time you come out, you don’t even know what you started looking for sometimes. And you forget the whole purpose of why you were looking in the first place. But to me it really was reassuring to understand that and to understand that I didn’t need to know why there were different accounts of the first vision. I mean, it is kind of fun to know.

Hank Smith: 06:47 Teresa, I love what you’re saying here because you’re not saying let’s avoid those difficult questions. There’s a process here. Let’s get the foundation set, the milk, you might say, and then we can build on that. But it’s impossible to build on something that you haven’t set the foundation yet. You can’t move to those secondary questions and have a positive experience until you have that foundation in place. Much like learning math. The meat of math would be AP calculus. The milk of math would be addition, subtraction, division. And can you imagine starting with the meat? You’d never get anywhere. You have to start with the milk knowing that eventually you want to get to the meat. We don’t want to just say, “Well, we’ve got to have milk before meat, but never meat.” We want to get to those places where everyone can understand. You can’t be saved in ignorance. We have to get to a place where we understand.

John Bytheway: 07:43 Yeah, I think it’s a good metaphor because it reminds us of nutrition and how a baby is started on milk. That’s the way it works. It’s not that, oh, meat’s bad for babies. That’s why I love just the Book of Mormon’s emphasis on first principles. It’s so fun just to go through and watch for faith in Christ and repentance repeated so often as first principles. Some of the deep interesting doctrines are fascinating. But it all comes back to eyes on Jesus, faith in Jesus Christ and repentance.

Hank Smith: 08:12 This is Elder Packer way back in 1984. You guys remember the 1900s? He talks about this verse in a talk called Feed My Sheep. He said, “Be patient if some will not eat when first invited.” So, he’s talking about sharing the gospel. So, here we are trying to feed the sheep and the sheep aren’t interested. “Remember, all who are spiritually hungry will not accept the gospel. Do you remember how reluctant you are to try a new food? Only after your mother urges you will you take a little, tiny portion on the tip of a spoon to taste it to see if you like it first. Under nourished children must be carefully fed so it is with spiritually underfed. Some are so weakened by sin that to begin with, they reject the rich food we offer. They must be fed carefully and gently. Some are so near spiritual death that they must be spoonfed on the broth of fellowship or nourished carefully on activities and programs. As the scriptures say they must have milk before meat.

  09:15 But we must take care lest the only nourishment they receive thereafter is broth. We feed them, we must. We are commanded to preach the gospel to every nation, kindred tongue and people. That message, my young friends, appears more than 80 times in scripture.” So, I like what he says here is begin with milk, but don’t forget the meat. What did President Hinckley say? Every new member needs a friend. That might be the milk. A job again, the milk. And then to be nourished by the good word of God. So, beginning into the meat portion. As I read the scripture, I thought that’s what we’re trying to do with our podcast. We’re trying to help people find more meat of the gospel.

John Bytheway: 09:58 Yeah. And it’s wonderful, but it’s also fun to see how often we are steered back to, as Elder Corbridge would say, those primary questions.

Hank Smith: 10:06 Primary questions.

John Bytheway: 10:07 And getting those answered first is our priority, getting a testimony of those, and then the gospel. So, I like to say to my students, we have to run across the top of the scriptures to get done in a semester. But it’s so fun to hear somebody like Hugh Nibley lecture for an hour on one verse that they are as deep as they are wide. They’re so much there and it’s fun to discover that.

Hank Smith: 10:31 The gospel is interesting that way, isn’t it? That it’s simple enough that my little 10-year-olds can begin to understand, but it’s deep enough that brilliant minds like Teresa Bell and Hugh Nibley can spend their whole life in it and still not grasp it. There’s something cool about how the Lord has shaped His gospel.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 10:52 This reminds me of a super great talk by Elder Holland, A Teacher Come From God. I’m certain you two know this one because it really speaks to teachers of the gospel. But he talks about if you receive not the Spirit, you shall not teach. And he says, that is what our members really want when they gather in a meeting or come into a classroom. Most people don’t come to church looking merely for a few gospel facts or to see old friends, although we like that part. Though, all of that is important. They come seeking a spiritual experience. They want peace. They want their faith fortified and their hope renewed. They want in short to be nourished by the good word of God and to be strengthened by the powers of heaven. Those of us who are called upon to speak, or teach, or lead have an obligation to help provide that as best we can.

  11:32 So, he talks about teaching the youth also and new members. And he says, are we really nourishing our youth and our new members in a way that will sustain them when the stresses of life appear? Or are we giving them a kind of theological twinkie, spiritually empty calories? President John Taylor once called that teaching fried froth, anything you can eat all day and yet finish feeling totally dissatisfied. I love that so much. This whole talk was really a great message for teachers. To me, it goes along with the primary and spiritual questions too, is that you do provide the basis. But you need to make sure that you keep going that it’s not just the primary questions. It is, but when people are ready that you move on from that.

  12:14 Because otherwise what it turns into is just coming up with new ways of saying things or saying things that aren’t necessarily founded in the gospel or in doctrine. And that kind of is like a twinkie, where you eat, you don’t get anything out of it. Although Twinkies really are kind of good. But we’re at spiritually empty calories. And I think that’s something that goes along with this too, is that we want to make sure that we are getting the primary questions and that we’re keeping it with the gospel too, and that we’re not just jumping to the meat or anything, but that we’re keeping the eyes on Jesus while we’re teaching and being taught.

Hank Smith: 12:48 That’s excellent, Teresa. I think you’re right on there. And I’ve always loved A Teacher Come From God. Man, I remember that. That talk brings back good memories of studying it for many times. Paul seems to return to this idea of that they’re fighting over who they follow, Paul or Apollos. And he says, “Look, I plant, Apollos might water, God is the one who’s actually doing the work here.” The missionary who plants the seed, he’s not the one giving the miracle here. The one doing the watering of the seed is not the one who’s doing the miracle. It’s God that giveth the increase. He says, “We’re on the same team.” Did you guys hear that in verse 8? We’re all on the same team here. Now, he that planteth and he that watereth are one. Every man shall bring a reward according to their own labor. We’re all laborers with God in this great work.

  13:40 He returns again to these divisions that they’re having saying, “Look, we’re all going towards the same goal here.” John and I have had people come up to me in the store and they’d say something like, “I loved that thought that John shared on the podcast.” Fill in the blank. And in my mind I’m like, “I shared that thought. That was me that shared that thought.” But I’m like, you know what? We’re on the same team. We’re all on the same team. We’re all working towards the same goal. Or John, I’m sure you’ve had someone say to you something like, “I love that talk that you gave” and it wasn’t your talk.

John Bytheway: 14:14 Yeah. Oh, it happens. Well, actually that was something that so-and-so said and isn’t that great? Yeah. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 14:20 Yeah, isn’t that great? Yeah. We’re all on the same team here. What do you think Teresa?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 14:24 I think I love that so much. It happens all the time, different context too. I think everybody at some point, maybe not the exact same context as you two. But it’s true. Or something gets published and your name gets left off and you’re like, “Are you kidding me? I’m the one who got the grant for…” Or something. But that’s the thing is we’re all on the same team here. We plant seeds, we water. But we’re all going for the same thing. We’re trying to unite people in Christ. And that’s where you two, if, Hank, someone says something that John said and it was really you, you two are united together in your purpose for this.

Hank Smith: 14:57 I think it was Harry Truman. I’m sure other people have said it too besides Harry Truman. But you can get a lot done, he said, as long as you don’t care about who gets the credit.

John Bytheway: 15:07 I’m just so happy to be here. I just love this every week.

Hank Smith: 15:11 I like what Paul teaches there. And he seems to be doing his milk before meat. He’s displaying it in this letter. He started with their divisions, then went away from it and said, “Let’s talk about the Spirit of God,” and then comes back to these divisions. So, he’s giving them a little bit at a time just as he said to do with others. Milk before meat. What’s the rest of chapter 3, Teresa?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 15:37 That’s where we start getting into the, “You are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth within you. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy for his temple is holy, which temple ye are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seem to be wise in this world, let him become a fool that he may be wise.” The whole going to the temple thing, I think this is something that’s frequently taught in church, is, “Know ye not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwell in you?” I think the basic important thing here is that we don’t defile our bodies and that we take care of our bodies as a temple, and that it has to be a place where the Spirit of God can live and dwell. And if it is not really a temple of God and we don’t treat it as such, we won’t be able to have the Spirit with us.

John Bytheway: 16:23 And I think that not only are our bodies’ temples, but he’s also speaking of the whole church as a temple. It’s something I didn’t know until I read this in preparation. Look at verse 9. “We are laborers together with God. Ye are God’s husbandry. Ye are God’s building.” So, in the little synopsis, the saints are the temple of God, and I think you can apply that both ways. Individually, we’re the temple of God and we’re careful how we treat each other because all of us together, the church is the temple of God. Am I right on that? Are you seeing that?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 17:00 I am. I think you’re right on. And I think that’s something really important for us to consider is that we all are God’s building, that we all are together in our individual wards, in our families, but in the church as a whole. I think it’s really important to keep that in mind. And that is something that I really hadn’t considered before either. Because we usually just think about it as an individual thing. Like our individual body is a temple. But rather I think you’re right that when we look at it in a bigger context, it means a lot more.

John Bytheway: 17:28 I love that. I get to talk to teenagers almost as much as Hank does. And I love to say, “Look, don’t get this wrong. This isn’t those who wrote For the Strength of Youth, a guide for making choices against those who read it. This is all of us against Satan. We are all the temple of God. We are on the same side. We’re trying to get through this world and stay on the covenant path.” And looking at us all as the temple of God, let’s help each other is so much easier than what Satan’s trying to do to get us adversarial and division like these whole chapters are talking about. That we’re all in this together and we have a common adversary that we’re all trying to overcome and keep our eyes on Jesus.

Hank Smith: 18:16 It seems that Paul is saying something to the effect of, “if you build up a building and it is destroyed by fire, if any man…” This is verse 15, “If any man’s work shall be burned, he will suffer loss. But he himself may be saved,” according to Joseph Smith here, “Yet as by fire.” So, I think he’s bridging to the idea of trials will save you.

John Bytheway: 18:42 Refiners fire type of thing.

Hank Smith: 18:44 You’ll be refined. And then he’s saying it’s not the building that matters so much as you, what happens inside of you. So you can do all this great work for God and it might all be destroyed one day, but what matters is what’s happened inside of you. You could be saved as by fire and he says, you are the temple of God. You are the building of God. You’re God’s sanctuary. And the Spirit of God dwells in you. So, let’s not defile that temple, that church, those people with these contentions. We want to be holy. At least that’s what I am trying to see. Sometimes reading Paul can be difficult.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 19:27 It really can.

John Bytheway: 19:29 Can I share a statement from our friends, Kelly Ogden and Andrew Skinner in their book, Verse…

Hank Smith: 19:35 Please do. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 19:36 Their book called Verse by Verse: Acts Through Revelation. They talked about “our bodies are sacred in a sense they are temples of God. We should protect our chastity as we protect our life. But Paul’s teaching here has another meaning. Now think to ancient Corinth. In a place where several temples were dedicated to Apollo, Aphrodite and others, Paul taught about the temple of the true God, which is the church of Jesus Christ, the temple of God, spoken of in these verses is the body of believers in Christ, that is his church. And the Spirit of God dwelleth among or within you, plural, all of you. If any man defiles the temple of God, meaning an apostate who distorts the doctrine or draws away disciples after him, he will be destroyed by God.” So, that helped me to see it in another way, not just individually on the temple of God, but all of us together. They’re surrounded in Corinth with all sorts of temples to a pantheon of Greek gods.

Hank Smith: 20:38 Interesting. That’s great adding that context, John.

John Bytheway: 20:42 That verse 19 is that same thing again, “Wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.”

Hank Smith: 20:47 There’s this great moment in verse 18 right before that verse, John, where he says, “Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in the world, let him become a fool that he may be wise.” It’s an interesting phrase. I think what Paul might be saying here is if you are really wise in the things of the world, you’re going to have to give that up so you can be really wise in God. You’re going to become a fool. I think I can hear him saying, discard that worldly pride so you can really become wise.

John Bytheway: 21:23 I think that Hugh Nibley said once, there was a video about him called Faith of an Observer. And at the very end he says, “None of us is very wise. None of us know very much.” This is Hugh Nibley talking, right?

Hank Smith: 21:34 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 21:35 And he said, “But the things the angels envy us for is we can forgive and we can repent.” So, I like to say and, Hank, you know this, if any of you lack information, let him ask of Google. But if you lack wisdom, that’s an entirely different question. So, man’s wisdom here or what Siri, or Alexa, or Google can tell you is one thing. But what can God tell you? Well, if you lack wisdom, you know where to go. That’s James 1:5.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 22:02 I think that is great, John. It really makes you think, especially bringing up the context of Hugh Nibley. In the footnote for 18A, for the topical guide it says boast or boasting. I mean, and this helps with looking at different translations too. But if any man among you seem to be wise in this world and is boasting about it, and is not able to have the Spirit or to learn the things of God. I think that falls into this too.

Hank Smith: 22:26 You got to let that go. Henry Eyring Senior, have you ever read his story?

John Bytheway: 22:31 Great scientist.

Hank Smith: 22:33 An incredible chemist. I mean, the best in the world. Should have won a Nobel Prize. He said this, he said, “Our understanding, great as it sometimes seems, can be nothing but the wide-eyed wonder of a child when measured against omniscience.” He knows that yes, I might seem smart because I’m the world’s best chemist. But I’m really just a child in wide-eyed wonder of God.

John Bytheway: 22:58 It seems like those really, really smart people are the ones who know that they’re not. That there’s so much more to know. There’s so much we don’t know. And when they acknowledge that with that humility I think comes, that’s real wisdom. Maybe wisdom is a twin with humility or something because for Hugh Nibley, for Henry Eyring to say that you’re like, wow. I know I don’t know as much as that guy and if he’s saying that.

Hank Smith: 23:25 I’ve always laughed at Isaiah 55 when the Lord says, “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways than your ways.” Or in other words, do you see the distance between you and the sun? That’s kind of like my brain and your brain. It’s a great verse. Teresa, Paul seems to finish going back to this same division that they’re having.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 23:47 Yes, he does.

Hank Smith: 23:48 So, stop saying those things about being a Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas. Be Christ. Verse 23, “You are Christ and Christ is God’s.”

John Bytheway: 23:58 Eyes on Jesus.

Hank Smith: 23:59 Yeah, it’s taken him three chapters, but he seems to have slowly laid out why the vision that they’re having is pretty foolish. Is that what you’re seeing as well?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 24:09 Definitely. He does. He has to keep reminding them. You can tell that there’s certain things that have been problems.

Hank Smith: 24:15 It sounds like Paul wraps up that topic and then he’s going to move on to something else. Is that what you see from chapter 4, 5, and 6?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 24:22 It changes things quite a bit. Here he starts focusing on Christ’s ministers must be faithful, apostles suffer, minister and keep the faith. And the kingdom of God is not in the word but in power. So, he’s kind of building on what he’s talked about before. In verses 3 and 4, “But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you or of man’s judgment. Yea, I judge not my known self. For I know nothing by myself. Yet am I not hereby justified? But that judges me is the Lord’s.” And this really is awesome to me because I mean, he’s been the best missionary who’s ever lived. The most, I don’t know, faithful, the longest serving. And it’s just to have him say, “But with me it’s a very small thing that I should be judged of you.” And this is one of the problems I think that’s very prevalent in the world right now is that we are so worried about how other people will perceive us.

Hank Smith: 25:10 What other people think. Yeah.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 25:13 I mean, I think about Instagram letting other people judge, looking around to see what other people are going to think. And worrying about that rather than knowing that only the Lord can judge. And so, if we’re doing what we need to be doing to stay close to him, and to keep ourselves close to him and in line with his teachings, we really don’t need to worry about that other stuff even though it’s difficult.

Hank Smith: 25:34 So Paul is saying, “I really don’t care what other people think of me.” That sounds like verse 3.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 25:41 And wouldn’t that be so great to get to that point?

Hank Smith: 25:43 Yeah.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 25:43 I wish that I could get to that point in my life. I know I’m doing the right thing. You think whatever you want, but I know I’m doing the right thing.

Hank Smith: 25:50 Yeah, that sounds like in verse 4, “For I know nothing…” Joseph Smith adds, “against myself.” Does he’s saying my conscience is clear.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 25:57 Yes, that’s exactly.

Hank Smith: 25:59 The Lord knows me. The Lord examines me.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 26:01 Perfect example of that.

John Bytheway: 26:02 There’s a great comfort in that too. I think you can find a, well,  Nephi says it. If these are not the words of Christ, judge ye. Christ knows my heart. And Nephi finds solace in that. I know that God knows that I’m trying because I keep in touch with him every day, type of thing. And he knows where I’m at and he knows every weakness and problem I’ve got. But he knows I’m trying. There’s a lot of comfort in that and we could let go of what everybody else thinks. What’s the old saying that God and one other person is a majority?

Hank Smith: 26:35 Yeah.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 26:37 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 26:39 I remember President Nelson saying prophets are rarely popular and they don’t seem to mind.

John Bytheway: 26:46 Do you ever hear a general conference talk and go, “Wow, that’s a courageous topic that they just took on.” And I think, wow, you go. I think it’s awesome. It strengthens me to know they’re willing to teach some of those tough things.

Hank Smith: 27:01 Yeah. And it’s got to be because of that same attitude of Paul. It’s a very small matter to me what other people think. I have a clear conscience and I know the Lord knows me. What else does he teach in chapter 4 here, Teresa?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 27:14 I really like in verse 10, and this kind of is reminiscent of chapter 3, “We are fools for Christ’s sake, but ye are wise in Christ. We are weak, but ye are strong. Ye are honorable, but we are despised.” And this does go right along with talking about not worrying what other people think and that prophets aren’t popular kind of thing. It’s just the way it’s stated to me is so great. And if we keep in mind the context of that fools are not what we usually think about them, but that we are willing to have the Spirit where we’re willing to humble ourselves for Christ’s sake, then we’re wise in Christ. Such an important message for us today as it was back then. But just to make sure that we do everything we can to stay close to Christ no matter what is going on in the world or around us.

Hank Smith: 27:57 For what people think of you. Correct me if I’m wrong here, Teresa, but it’s almost as if he’s saying, in academia, if it’s foolish to be spiritual, then I’m foolish. I’m fine. I feel wise, right?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 28:11 Yes. Yes.

Hank Smith: 28:11 You call me foolish, but I feel wise. So, chapter 4 finishes with Paul saying, “I hope to come unto you shortly.” But that’s definitely not the end of the letter.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 28:21 Oh, no, there’s a lot more.

Hank Smith: 28:23 Yeah.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 28:24 In chapter 5 in the chapter heading, the church cannot fellowship sinners, which to me, I mean, that’s kind of a lot to even take in to start with. But verse 1, “It is reported commonly that fornication among you. And such fornication as is not so much is named the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.” And I think some context is necessary to be able to understand this.

Hank Smith: 28:47 Something’s going on specifically that he’s hearing about.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 28:51 Yeah. And I mean, when it’s reported, when he says it’s reported, that’s when he’s addressing something specific.

Hank Smith: 28:58 That’s one of the difficulties of Paul’s letters is we don’t have the letter that was sent. We’re hearing one end of the conversation, so we have to kind of pick up on those things.

John Bytheway: 29:08 I was reading in Ogden and Skinner’s commentary and one of their opening paragraphs… And this is to the whole book of 1st Corinthians. But they said, I loved this sentence. “1st Corinthians is so good because the Corinthians were not.”

Dr. Teresa Bell: 29:20 That is great.

John Bytheway: 29:24 Said Paul had to rebuke their lack of unity, spirit of contention, doubts about the resurrection, and that’s going way up to one Corinthians 15. Abuse of spiritual gifts, that’s like 12 and 13. Sophistication of Greek intellectuals, we’ve touched on that. And immorality in a variety of perversions.

Hank Smith: 29:41 He says in verse 2, “Are you puffed up? Are you proud of this? Are you proud of what’s happened?” He said, “I’d rather you be mourning over this.”

John Bytheway: 29:51 This can’t stand. As you said at the beginning, this is a regulatory letter. This shouldn’t be happening in a branch of the church type of a thing.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 29:59 And then when he continues in verse 3, “For I verily as absent in body but present in spirit, have judged already as though I were present concerning him that has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ when you’re gathered together in my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ.” And then I mean, it goes on from that a little bit, “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the Spirit may be saved in the day of Lord Jesus.” It is written for our day. I mean, you think about how crazy things were going on and then poor Paul is away from them. But he still is present in spirit and he wants them to still remember what he taught them, and the spirit he left with them, the teachings he left with them. And then he has to write this letter.

Hank Smith: 30:42 Yeah. Then Paul seems to be saying, “You’ve got to stop being so prideful because you’re going to ruin everything.” Your glorying, pride, I take that to mean in verse 6, is not good. “Know ye, not that little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump?” A little bit of pride can ruin everything.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 31:01 And that’s saying a lot.

John Bytheway: 31:03 Yeah, that’s some strong stuff.

Hank Smith: 31:05 Teresa, what I’m seeing here, and correct me if I’m wrong, but chapter 5 seems to be Paul… This is a contextual thing. This is something that’s happened in Corinth. He’s saying, “This is not good. You’ve got to do something about this or it’s going to get worse.”

Dr. Teresa Bell: 31:21 It’s true. With the purge out, therefore the old leaven, the footnote is Doctrine and Covenants 43:11, “Purge ye out the iniquity, which is among you, sanctify yourselves before me.” And that’s a little more direct without the leaven example. But the leaven is also a great example because you can’t make the bread if there’s no leaven. And even with the old where it’ll ruin everything and it won’t work. That example, I think, is really effective. And then the overall meaning from the explanation I guess from Doctrine and Covenants 43:11 is, “Purge ye out the iniquity, which is among you.” The leaven’s a really good example. This is a little more direct and more in our dispensation. “And sanctify yourselves before me.” You’ve got to get rid of the sin. Basically what he is saying, it’s very powerful.

John Bytheway: 32:10 It’s not that sinners aren’t welcome at church because we are all sinners, but you can’t allow it to persist, to continue, to condone. And that’s an important distinction because all of us… What is Elder Holland’s saying? The church is not a monastery for perfect people. It’s more like a hospital for those who are ill and want to get well. We don’t want to sound like this is like, “Throw out the sinners.”

Dr. Teresa Bell: 32:33 Oh, definitely not.

Hank Smith: 32:35 And Paul does address that in verses 10 and 11. He’s saying, “I didn’t tell you to get away from everyone who sins, you’d have to leave the world. You’d have to actually leave the earth to do that.” Towards the end of chapter 5, Paul seems to be saying, “Look, I wrote you earlier…” A letter we don’t have in verse 9. “I wrote you an epistle to not company with fornicators.” And that word company means to have contact with, associate with. And then he says in verse 10, “I don’t mean you can’t have any contact with anyone who sins,” he said in verse 10, “Or you would have to leave the world. You would have to actually leave the planet to not have any association with any sinner,” he’s saying. And John and Teresa, do you see this in verse 11, “But I have written unto you not to keep company if anyone is called a brother.” Meaning if they are part of the ward, part of the branch here, and they are off the rails sinning, you have to do something about that. John, wouldn’t we call that today protecting?

John Bytheway: 33:39 The good name of the church. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 33:40 Yeah, the good name of the church. Is that what you’re seeing here?

John Bytheway: 33:44 Yeah. When Elder M. Russell Ballard wrote his book Counseling with our Councils, he talked about why do we have… They used to call them disciplinary councils and they’re called membership councils now, and I love that change. And to save the soul of the sinner, to protect the innocent, and to protect the good name of the church. If the church does nothing when this sort of thing is known, that’s not good for the good name of the church. So, I think Paul’s carefully saying, we want sinners to come to Christ. Christ came to save sinners. But we’re supposed to abandon sin and try to get closer to Christ. We’re not trying to abandon Christ and get more comfortable with sin. We’re trying to abandon sin and get more comfortable with Christ.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 34:28 I love what you said, what Paul said too, that if we try to stay away from all sinners, we’d have to leave the world. But then that also leaves us with knowing that we also sin, that everybody sins. And so, that’s another thing to keep in mind too. The cross-reference for verse 11A with the company. This is from Romans 16:17, which to me it makes this a little more clear now, “I beseech you brethren. Mark them which caused divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them.” Now this goes along also with loving the sinner, not the sin, and that kind of thing.

  35:03 But I think about in the context of Corinth at that time, that spending time and keeping company with people who were doing really serious sins, and it would be in a situation where it would be easy for the saints to become involved in that type of sin. But I think that’s part of this too. We talk about this at church a lot too, about, oh, and people have done things to hurt you or harm you, or that they’re sinning and you want to help them. But sometimes you do still have to take a step back and say, “Can I help them? Are they ready to be helped?”

Hank Smith: 35:35 I can’t put myself in a bad place.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 35:38 And is it going to jeopardize my testimony, my spirituality by being with them? And I think sometimes this is a difficult topic today.

Hank Smith: 35:46 Yeah. There’s a fine balance there. There is a balance between I want to reach out, I want to help, I want to bless. I don’t want to put myself in a position where I could be influenced in a negative way.

John Bytheway: 35:58 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 35:59 John, what were you going to say?

John Bytheway: 36:01 Let me add what Kelly Ogden and Andy Skinner have said here, both of whom we’ve had on followHIM. They said, “Here Paul’s saying, we should not do what gross sinners do nor be influenced by them, nor spend our time going to the places they frequent. We should admonish sinners and love them, but stay away from their evil ways. Paul also says…” I love this. “It is not his or the church’s business to judge and regulate the whole world, but rather to keep the church pure and leave the world to God.”

Hank Smith: 36:32 That seems to be verse 12.

John Bytheway: 36:34 Yeah, keep the church pure. Leave the world to God.

Hank Smith: 36:38 Interesting. And again, without context, without the context Teresa has given us here, we don’t want to take this chapter out of context and start judging everybody in the ward saying, well, “Sinner. Sinner. Sinner.” We need to see that this is something Paul wrote to the Corinthians. And we can use it, but we’ve got to make sure we understand that there’s limits to applying scripture.

John Bytheway: 36:59 Yeah, it’s like Paul heard about something that was happening there and was writing pretty strongly this needs to be handled.

Hank Smith: 37:08 Let’s take a look at these last two chapters, Teresa, before we let you go.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 37:12 Well, there’s actually kind of a lot in chapter 6. It starts out talking about church members should not fight one another in the courts, which we could talk about a lot if we want to, and apply it to today or not.

John Bytheway: 37:23 That first thing about lawsuits, there is a great chapter, President Dallin H. Oaks wrote a book called The Lord’s Way. And there’s a chapter in there about, the saints have to get involved with the law. That’s really helpful if somebody wants to do some extra reading. It’s really helpful.

Hank Smith: 37:44 Okay. I think we need to make sure we have context here and that Paul’s not talking to us today. He’s talking to these people then. But he seems very disappointed that they are doing this. He says, “The fact that you have lawsuits among each other is bad enough.” He says, “It shows me that you’re defeated already.” It’s verse 7, “Now therefore, there is utterly a fault among you because you go to law one with another.” Almost like what is happening you guys over there? Teresa, what did you say what’s next?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 38:15 All right. Hank, why don’t you read 15? Start with verse 15 to get us talking about this.

Hank Smith: 38:21 Okay. Sounds like Paul is kind of, oh my. They’re like this never ending list of things he’s got to deal with these people. He says, “Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? God forbid.” Like no. “What? Know ye not that he which is joined to a harlot is in one body for to saith he shall be one flesh?” So, it sounds like some prostitution issues have been happening among the saints there. “For he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, but that committed for fornication, sinneth against his own body. What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own. You are bought with a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body and in your Spirit, which are God’s.” It sounds like Paul is laying down the law here, Teresa.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 39:24 I think so too. And we’ve talked about all of the sinning that was going on. And now we’ve gotten to the specific chapter about sexual impurity. You know he’s got to be frustrated with these people and just sad, downright sad. Something that I’ve thought when I’ve been studying this, is I wonder if he stopped some things, “Maybe I didn’t really teach them enough about this to help them see. I didn’t explicitly explain what this meant. And so now it’s time to lay down the law.” It’s like, “This is what I’m talking about. I’m not going to mince words. I’m going to just tell you directly what is going on and what you’re supposed to be doing and not doing.” That’s how I feel about this.

  39:59 And then at the end to sum it up with, “You’re bought with a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body and in your Spirit, which are God’s.” And I mean, to me what a powerful and beautiful way to finish that. He chastises them, he lays down the law and he is like, “This is what you need to remember. And if you could keep your eyes on Jesus and remember you were bought with a price, therefore, glorify God in your body and in your Spirit, which are God’s. I mean, that is just a beautiful way to me to sum it up and to leave the end of that topic on a really good note.

Hank Smith: 40:28 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 40:28 Just next to the city of Corinth, there was a high mountain, they called the Acrocorinth. And on top of it was the temple of Aphrodite and Strabo, who was an ancient historian. He said there were a thousand temple prostitutes there. And Strabo’s probably exaggerating. But this is, again, is one of those where you see the backdrop of Corinth and you can see why it would be hard to have a church there, and to be surrounded with all of that, and to not perhaps be affected by it. But I just think there are mic drop moments in that, to use a modern term, “Ye are not your own. You’re bought with a price.” And boy, Jesus is our redeemer. He bought us back. I thought I could do anything I want with my own body because it’s mine. But this is Paul saying, well, actually, as someone who’s made a covenant with Christ, you’re not your own. You’ve been bought with a price. And your body and your Spirit are God’s. Wow. God’s apostrophe S, they belong to him, which is super powerful mic drop stuff.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 41:34 In Elder Holland’s book, Our Day Star Rising, which has already been… I think Camille Fronk Olson introduced it really well. Which I need to say, she was one of my seminary teachers in high school. Moving on from that, I’ve always wanted to say that on this podcast.

John Bytheway: 41:45 Oh, really?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 41:46 I love her. I have so much love for her and she has seriously inspired a lot of my study of the gospel, continued study of the gospel. She is an amazing woman. I know you guys know that. So I learned about this from her on your podcast, this book. But Elder Holland has done a lot of teaching about the New Testament explaining things. And for 1st Corinthians 6, he just says some really powerful things. He says there are things on which we have to take a firm stand, which kind of goes along with the end of that chapter 6:20. We know that some people are addicted to gambling for instance. We have to say basically that this is destructive behavior. And if you go down that road very far, there’s often tragedy and dismay, and disarray, and divorce, and all kinds of problems at the end. And we have to help with that. We are against domestic abuse. I’m not making necessarily analogies here. I’m just saying that there are a lot of things we have to say the gospel is here to remedy. The gospel is here to bless and help.

  42:38 If someone is suffering with this, we want to work with them, we want to help. But we can’t say, “Oh, it’s okay. We just have to let that go,” because some things you can’t let go. One, because they’re commandments. Two, because they’re commandments that are designed to lead to happiness. You may confront difficult issues but stay close to your leaders. Keep your faith. I can promise you that happiness is in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not out of it. However hard it may seem to be in the church, it is a lot harder to be out of it in terms of any chance for happiness. By hard, I mean, something that you may have a struggle with. Whatever the challenge, it’s going to be better if we can stay in and talk and work. This is not our church.

  43:19 I love what Paul said to the Corinthians and it’s 6:20, “Ye are bought with a price.” We are indentured servants if you will. We owe everything to the Savior who bought our salvation. And so it is not as if we can be whimsical, and flit about, and do exactly what we want. I don’t know any of us who can do that. We have been purchased. Death, and hell, and the adversary, and dark eternity was one option, and that got paid for. We are indebted to the great living Son of God who paid that price and we owe him our allegiance. And I think to me this is just one of the most beautiful modern ways of explaining this and it’s something that we can see exactly. And it does. It gets into the love the sinner, not the sin, but we can try and step. We need to try and step in and help people. And we can’t just say, “Oh, they’re addicted to whatever. We just have to let it go. It’s just who they are. They’re doing their own thing or whatever.” But that’s not how the gospel works.

Hank Smith: 44:15 Excellent. I’m sure both of you’ll remember two talks given by Elder Holland, both very similar. One at BYU called Of Soul, Symbols and Sacraments. The other one at general conference called Personal Purity. Very similar talks. Here’s what Elder Holland says. There’s a lot to cover here and I would encourage anyone to go and listen to both of these, and listen to them. Elder Holland is one you have to listen to. You can’t just read. He talks about the body being an essential part of our soul. He said this Latter-day Saint doctrine underscores why sexual sin is so serious. We declare that one who uses the God-given body of another without divine sanction, abuses the very soul of that individual in exploiting the body of another, which means exploiting his or her soul. One desecrates the atonement of Christ which saved that soul, and which makes possible the gift of eternal life.

  45:14 And when one mocks the son of righteousness, one steps into a realm of heat, hotter and holier than the noonday sun. You cannot do so and not be burned. Please never say who does it hurt? Why not a little freedom? I can transgress now and repent later. Please, don’t be so foolish and so cruel. You cannot with impunity crucify Christ afresh, meaning crucify him again, “Flee fornication,” Paul cries. And flee anything like unto it, the Doctrine & Covenant adds. Why? Well, for one reason because of the incalculable suffering in both body and spirit endured by the Savior of the world so that we could flee. We owe him something for that. Indeed, we owe him everything for that. “You are not your own,” Paul says. You have been bought with a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

  46:11 It’s just a powerful doctrine that Elder Holland teaches about the body being part of the soul. He finishes this way and Teresa, you were heading this direction. “If some of you are carrying these wounds from these sins”, he calls them scars that spiritually disfigure. He says, “If some of you are carrying these wounds and I know that you are, to you is extended the peace and renewal of repentance available through the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. In such serious matters, the path of repentance is not easily begun nor painlessly traveled, but the Savior of the world will walk that essential journey with you.” I think our listeners would be interested. Teresa, in your journey as both an academic, a scholar and a faithful Latter-day Saint. What’s that been like for you?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 47:03 I’ve been really blessed. My parents are very active in the church, have taught me many things from a young age. I’m the oldest of eight children. We just have always had a very spiritual gospel centered home. Went to BYU after I graduated from high school, went on a mission. Well, I spent a summer in Switzerland first. That was the first time my faith was shaken a little bit. I lived with a non-member family who was not very interested in having me go to church every Sunday, two hours to get there and back. It was during that time that I really had a spiritual experience that helped me understand that heavenly Father knew me. He knew me personally, he knew what I was going through, and he knew that I would be able to go through whatever it would be and come out really great on the other side. I just kept going to school. I was 33 when I got married. And John, I don’t remember how old you were, but 33 is kind of old in the Mormon culture.

John Bytheway: 47:55 I was 33 too.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 47:56 Hey, perfect. See, that’s the perfect age. When I met my husband, I had about a year left in my doctoral program. He’s younger than I am by a lot. We just fell in love and it was the right thing to do. Through all that, I had many spiritual experiences to help me know that. After I finished my doctorate and I’ve gone out into academia, the University of Pittsburgh, University of Oklahoma before ending up at BYU, it’s really easy to not be part of the church and to just step away when you’re in academia. There are so many things that we study that are not necessarily… I’m not going to say not aligned with the gospel, but there’s not ever a gospel context looking at it.

  48:35 For me, that’s been the most important thing I can do. And I found that through daily scripture study, daily prayer, going to church, I mean, all the things that we know that we’re supposed to be doing. It has kept me on the path. And it’s kept me wanting to be on the path going to the temple. I really appreciate the new curriculum we have in Come, Follow Me. And I remember when it was introduced and just sitting there listening to Elder Cook thinking this is the answer. The church puts so much effort into curriculum design. And I have a strong background in that. And every one of the questions they have, the context they give, the way things are explained, the links to things, they are all, from an educational standpoint, a learning standpoint, they are sound. It is all sound. And it is amazing to me.

  49:20 And I just tell people when they’re like, “Oh, I’ve got to teach gospel doctrine. I’m so nervous,” or whatever. And it’s like, use the manual. Just use the manual. Everything in there is really good. You don’t have to make up anything else. People will talk. I mean, this is just what you need to do. But this is a great time for me personally, for my family, and for the church, I think. But it’s all of these things together, staying close to the spirit. I mean, the most important thing to me I think is knowing that heavenly Father knows me personally, individually. And if there’s something wrong in my life, something that’s not working right, the Savior, because of the Atonement, takes care of it for me. It’s the most amazing thing to know that. And the older I get, the more I learn.

  49:57 A lot of my research is the gospel supports because it’s language learning and culture learning. So, that’s something that’s really helpful. And most of my colleagues are very understanding and supportive of the church because of how much the church supports language learning. And they focus so much on learning about other cultures so that you can understand other people. For me, just keeping the Spirit with me and helping me continue to study the gospel is what has been the most important thing in my life and continues to be. And I’m really thankful for that. I know that heavenly Father lives and loves us. I know that Jesus is our Savior. And I know that he suffered for our sins and that we can overcome everything through Him.

  50:39 I also know as we study the gospel, especially this year with the New Testament and Corinthians, and learning about different cultures, different people, and how to stay in the church and still be able to help people is something that’s really important for all of us. And just one last quote, chapter 7 of Preach My Gospel says, “One of the greatest things we can do to gain people’s trust and love is to embrace their culture, and by extension, their language.” And if it’s in Preach My Gospel, it’s something that’s really important because this is teaching for all of the missionaries out there. And by extension we are all missionaries. And this is something to know. And it doesn’t just say to learn about it a little bit. To gain people’s trust and love is to embrace their culture.

  51:19 It doesn’t mean you have to become part of it, but you need to know it enough, understand it enough, understand why they believe the way they believe and what they believe. That’s the way that we get people’s trust. That’s one of the things, I think to me, looking at Paul, he doesn’t come out and say something like that. But he wants us to be able to teach people and we have to love and understand them first. That’s, to me, the biggest message from 1st Corinthians.

Hank Smith: 51:43 You’re right on there, Teresa. Paul never comes out and says it, but you can tell he did that. He’s not from Corinth. He’s not from Greece. He understands them and their culture. I think that’s why he’s successful with them. I think we’ll let Paul have the last word here. He says, “Eye hath not seen…” John read this earlier, “Nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” We can tell, Teresa, that you love him. Thanks for being with us today.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 52:12 Thanks for having me. I have been looking forward to this for so long.

Hank Smith: 52:15 We say the same thing back to you. followHIM are big fans of Dr. Teresa Bell. We want to thank Dr. Bell for being with us today. We also want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen. We want to recognize our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And we always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope all of you’ll join us next week. We have more of 1st Corinthians to cover on followHIM. Today’s transcript, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followHIM.co. That’s followHIM.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free and we’d love for you to share it with your family and friends. We’d like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come, Follow Me study. If you could subscribe to rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find.

  53:06 We’ve just completed a new project we think you’ll love. If you would like short and powerful quotes and insights from all of our Old Testament episodes, join our mailing list on our website, followHIM.co. And we will email you a PDF of the first three chapters of our new book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. If you enjoyed our guests on the podcast last year as much as we did, we think you’ll love this new collection. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen. We also love hearing from you, our friends and listeners.

Amy: 53:46 Hi, my name’s Amy and I live in Queen Creek, Arizona. I’m joining you from my car because that’s where I listen to your podcasts most. And this allows me to set an intention for the day and the week, as I shuttle my kids around or prepare for work. This is where I have quiet time for just myself, and to focus on the Savior, and the thoughts and lessons of the week. So, I just wanted to say thank you for the guests that you have on and for the work that you all put into your production. It allows us to dig deeper into the content for Come follow Him, and just really appreciate all that you do to bring the Savior into our lives. So, thank you very much.