Hank Smith: 00:00 Hello, my friends. Welcome to FollowHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m here with the incredible John Bytheway. Hello, John.

John Bytheway: 00:09 Hi Hank. Good to be here again.

Hank Smith: 00:10 John, we just reviewed Acts one through five. Our little church is now being directed by the Savior, although he is in a different location. The apostles have gained power and strength. Peter is performing miracles. He’s giving these fantastic speeches. He is bold. What do you think this little church is going to do now?

John Bytheway: 00:30 Yeah, this has been really fun because we got done with the gospels, which felt like the get ready, get set, and now the Book of Acts is go. And at first Peter just went fishing and then Jesus came and said, “What are we doing here?” We’re reading this going, “Wow, what happened? These guys are on fire. They’re going out, they’re doing things, and they’re gaining converts by the thousands. So how do we manage all of this?” They’re doing that great commission, going into all the world, they’re doing that. There’s got to be challenges that go along with that, right?

Hank Smith: 01:00 Yeah, absolutely. I think the Lord, and I’ve read ahead a little bit, but I think the Lord is preparing a new generation of converts to really fuel this fire. John, in order to help us understand this next section of Acts, Acts 6, 7, 8, and 9, we have an incredible scholar and friend joining us, Casey Griffiths. Casey, what do you think is going to happen in this next section?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 01:24 This little section tells us how that little church of Jerusalem expanded through the whole world with some help from some very unexpected people. In fact, maybe the last person you would think that would help them.

Hank Smith: 01:37 Awesome. John, why don’t you introduce Casey to our audience?

John Bytheway: 01:41 Yeah. We’re so delighted to have Casey back again. We’ve seen his happy countenance on here before. We’ve had Casey before. He was born and raised in Delta, Utah. Everyone there has a happy countenance. Served his mission in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, came back to BYU, got a degree in history, later, a master’s in religious education and a PhD in educational leadership and foundations at BYU. And his studies have focused on the development of religious education programs among Latter-day Saints. His research focuses on the history of religious education among Latter-day Saints, history of the church in the Pacific, and diverse movements associated with the restoration. He is married to Elizabeth Ottley Griffiths. They live in Saratoga Springs with their four adorable children, and I like to watch Casey on Scripture Central videos and they’re awesome. So we’re really glad to have him here. Thanks for joining us, Casey.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 02:35 Thank you very much for having me. It’s always a joy to be with you two brethren.

Hank Smith: 02:41 We love Casey on followHIM. I’d encourage anybody to go back to those Doctrine & Covenants lessons we did with Casey. They are fantastic. They were really life changing to me and just being around Casey, you get full of light when Casey’s around. Casey, Acts 6, 7, 8, and 9. Title of the lesson is “What Will Thou Have Me Do?” So I guess I’m going to ask that of you. What will you have us do in moving forward in this lesson?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 03:09 Well, the main story here is we’re introducing a huge character in the New Testament. The guy who takes over is the main character of the Book of Acts and then writes a significant portion. That’s Paul. But Paul, who here is known as Saul, isn’t something we want to rush into because there’s a lot of really interesting figures leading up to Saul who later becomes Paul’s conversion that we want to take time to talk about too. So there’s Stephen, there’s Philip, James, and Peter and John are still in the mix here. And the story of Saul’s conversion really has to start all the way back here with these helpers that come into the church named Stephen and Philip who we find a little bit about in these early chapters.

Hank Smith: 03:55 Should we go right into chapter six? Do you want to give us some background? We’re happy to do whatever you want to do.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 04:01 I’d be more than happy to give you some background. So just like you mentioned, the church is expanding and it’s getting bigger and they run into the basic problem, all expanding movements have, we need more help. So the apostles meet together and in Acts chapter six, starting verse three, they decide to choose seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom who may be appointed over this business. They need seven people specifically to look after the poor, and they name each of these seven people, but we really only get stories about two of them. That’s first Stephen, who’s discussed in Acts six and seven, and then Philip who’s going to come in Acts chapter eight and get a little bit about him too. They described them here as, Stephen, a man full of faith in the Holy Ghost. He is appointed to look after the poor, but it’s really his missionary work that takes center stage and his goodness, his example that starts us down the road to where Saul becomes a convert to the church.

Hank Smith: 05:01 Okay. I don’t want to get away from the Bible here, but as you were describing the situation, I couldn’t help but think of the early church, the restored church. They’re growing at a huge rate. They need some help to take care of the poor. Doesn’t that feel like the Doctrine & Covenants?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 05:16 You’re speaking my language now because I’m normally a church historian, but yes, the parallels here are very, very strong between the early church where they’re growing, they’re growing fast, they need help. They have all these unlikely people come into the scene that can help them do what they need to do.

Hank Smith: 05:33 Yeah, that’s beautiful. So let’s jump into chapter six. Walk us through Stephen and Philip and how they influence Paul’s conversion.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 05:40 Okay, well, Stephen gets right in there, and Stephen appears to be kind of a firebrand. He starts talking to people and speaking out and gets accused of blasphemy, down in verse 11. Stephen just kind of out of the gate is immediately set up as a dangerous person in verses 14 and 15. These are the same people that targeted Jesus just a year or two earlier said, “We’ve heard this man say,” this is verse 14, “Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place and change the customs that Moses delivered to us and all of a sudden the counsel looked steadfastly on him and saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.”

  06:17 So Stephen, straight out of the gate gets into trouble, but the accusation is he’s going to wreck the system of worship we have. He’s an acolyte of this Jesus of Nazareth who wants to change the law of Moses and the traditional way we worship. And so Stephen kind of turns that accusation against them and gives a lengthy discourse to point the entire Old Testament towards Jesus Christ and basically try to convince them that the whole point of everything they’re doing is to adhere to the teachings of the coming Messiah, who’s the person who gave them the teachings of Moses in the first place.

Hank Smith: 06:57 Oh, so chapter seven is going to be his response to them saying, “You’re a follower of Jesus of Nazareth and you want to get rid of the law of Moses.” And he’s saying, “Let me show you what the law of Moses really was doing.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 07:08 Stephen’s a good scriptural scholar, and chapter seven is actually a great recap of the Old Testament. It’s kind of the Old Testament in five minutes basically where he walks through everything going back to all the way to Abraham, is where he starts the story and hits the main major points of why they’re here, why they worship and where everything came from. He walks through Abraham, Isaac. In verse eight, he mentions Jacob and the 12 patriarchs. Talks about Joseph, talks about the Egypts, and now he gets to where Moses is. But all of this is leading to the main point that Stephen’s trying to make, which is basically, “I’m not trying to change your system of worship, I’m trying to show you what the point of your system of worship really is to begin with.” So you continue to walk through the verses and he talks about Moses, he even gives us some interesting biographical information about Moses and how Moses got in trouble with the Egyptians and some of the things that happened there after Moses killed the Egyptian. This is a good commentary on the Old Testament.

Hank Smith: 08:12 Yeah, this isn’t in the Old Testament, some of this stuff. He must have had other sources.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 08:16 Yeah, I’m assuming Stephen is drawing from a more pure source than we have today, or he’s giving inspired commentary by the Holy Ghost. Either way, this is good stuff where Moses kind of is cast out as well and then meets God. Verse 32, “The voice of the Lord speaking on him saying, “I am the God of my fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob.” And Moses, tremble and durst not behold.” And he just keeps going through explaining, “Hey, this is your heritage. Let me explain to you what your background is.” Then he starts talking about David and Solomon. David and Solomon build the temple, but people misuse the temple. People use the temple to worship these false gods. And David and Solomon are complicit in this in some sense because of their own personal wickedness, but kind of his whole discourse leads to verses 48 and 49 in chapter seven.

Hank Smith: 09:13 I noticed that he quotes Moses verse 37, this is what Moses said, “A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren.” This is Stephen pointing to Christ right there. He is saying, “Moses knew about Christ and told them he was coming.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 09:28 Yeah. He’s taking their scriptures and doing the same thing the Savior did to say, “Hey, all of this history was leading to something,” Moses said there would be a prophet that would come. David and Solomon were commanded to build a house unto God. That house in one form or another is near the place where Stephen is prophesying, but then he tries to take this house that they built all their faith around and cause it to transcend what they’re using it for. That’s in verses 48 and 49, “The most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands, saith the prophet. Heaven is my throne, earth is my footstool. What house will you build me saith the Lord or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things.”

  10:12 So he’s trying to say to them, yeah, the temple’s important, but the temple’s not the point. The point of all this is to understand and know God. If the temple is helping you get closer to God, then that’s good. But you guys are so concerned with the tickety tackety of the law that you’ve sort of looked past the whole reason of the law, which was to bring you to Jesus Christ. And in your obsession with the law, you’ve started to see the law and the temple to a lesser extent as the point of your religion when it never really was to begin with. Yeah, it’s not the end.

Hank Smith: 10:50 Yeah. We don’t worship the temple.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 10:52 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 10:53 We worship the Lord.

John Bytheway: 10:55 The very thing that they said at the end of Acts six is he’s speaking blasphemy against Moses and here’s Stephen, “Let me tell you about Moses,” and gives this great detail and by what he’s telling us, honors Moses. Right. And of course Moses is a type of Christ and then leads up to what you were just saying about, “I’m not destroying Moses. I honor Moses,” and he gets all the way up to the temple. How could he be speaking against Moses? I guess it’s the law of Moses, is that what they’re saying he’s speaking against?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 11:28 Yeah. Their charge against Stephen is he wants to change the customs, which Moses delivered against this. That’s what they say in Acts chapter six. They’re accusing Stephen of sort of trying to subvert Moses and Stephen’s turning it back on them and saying, “What do you think Moses was going for in the first place? Why do you think Moses told you there was going to be another prophet that would come along if what Moses gave to you was the end of everything that you’re supposed to get to?” And Stephen’s trying to say, “Hey man, it’s not Moses that you’re supposed to be worshiping. It’s supposed to be God. And Moses, the temple, and the entire system that Moses gave you are only useful in the sense that they get you to God.” And you can understand verse 51 in chapter seven, “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears. You do always resist the Holy Ghost as your fathers did. So do ye.”

  12:22 Now this isn’t exactly how to win friends and influence people kind of thing. Right? Stephen is a little too blunt. In fact, as I was reading through this, the parallel that I kept going back to is Stephen is like Abinadi in the Book of Mormon where he just doesn’t seem to be afraid of what the consequences are going to be. He’s more interested in making sure that they know they’re on the wrong track and they’re misleading people. So at risk of his life, which he very much is doing here, he tells him how it is verse 52, “Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they’ve slain them, which showed before the coming of the just one of whom you have now been betrayers and murderers.” So this is some strong, strong language. You guys have betrayed Moses by killing the people who were sent to do the same thing that Moses did up to and including the very best of the best, the just one, Jesus Christ himself.

John Bytheway: 13:21 I would love to offer our listeners a way to explain to their children what uncircumcised in heart and ears means. And I’ve always just figured that talking as much as the book of Acts does and starts referring to those of the circumcision kind of refers to the Jews, but maybe to all of the law of Moses, those that are following that. What would you say, you haven’t made covenants in your heart and ears? How would you explain verse 51, if you’re a mom or a dad? What does that mean?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 13:53 That’s a great question. I mean, as a mom or a dad, you don’t have to explain circumcision in great detail, I would say. But circumcision is very much an outward thing, that’s literally done to the outside of your body to show a covenant. When he says you’re uncircumcised of heart, I think what he’s saying is you’re going through the motions and you’re acting like a righteous person, but inwardly, you’re really not a righteous person. The Savior and Paul, are later on going to use this title called the Whited Wall, when they talk to people or empty sepulchers. Basically the idea was there’s a tomb and it’s full of dead bodies and it’s got decay and death on the inside, but they painted on the outside so it looks all good. And he’s basically saying, “Yeah, to a person observing you on the outside, you seem like a really righteous person, but on the inside you’re uncircumcised of heart. You’ve made those covenants and you walk in an outward way. But inwardly, you don’t really believe this, do you? At least you’re not practicing fundamentally the way a person should if they really believe this.”

  14:58 And this is Stephen, I mean, I’m guessing because he was called to assist the poor, that part of his accusation could be linked to the fact that these guys aren’t doing anything to help the poor. They’re spending all their time trying to tamp down Christianity when the Christians are doing everything that they can to try and bring everybody together, make sure everybody’s fat, everybody has a roof over their head, everybody’s taken care of. Well, it seems like these rulers are more interested in the appearance of good and the accumulation of power and wealth. Luke is a cinematic writer. He’s really good at what he does, and he has Stephen have this dramatic confrontation with the scribes and Pharisees.

  15:39 And then it’s kind of like the camera pulls back and there’s this guy standing over to the side kind of listening to what Stephen says. I guess if we’re comparing Stephen to Abinadi, this is Alma the Elder, except Alma the Elder, if he didn’t feel bad about anything that happened to Abinadi and actually sort of participated in it as well. So it’s possible, yeah, that what Stephen says really does come down into Paul’s heart because I never realized that Paul quotes Stephen and takes this idea of temples built without hands and it’s diffused through all of his writings. You know, “You are the temple of God,” he’s going to say in first Corinthians. So that’s an interesting connection, Hank, thanks for pointing that out to me.

Hank Smith: 16:19 Yeah. I’m just wondering if he’s like, “Hmm, that’s a great point.”

John Bytheway: 16:23 I think that that’s another thing, we call the temple the house of the Lord, but he’s not limited to that place. Is that the way we would say it?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 16:31 I would say that definitely, that holy places can exist everywhere. And the other thing is there’s a real tendency sometimes in religion to become obsessed with ritual and place and missed principle. This would be like a person that goes to the temple once a week and participates in ordinances, but then is mean to his kids or talks bad about his neighbor or is dishonest in his business dealings or anything like that. That honestly temples are there to point us towards the principles that make us better people and that lead us to God but the temple isn’t the point.

  17:11 Where there was no temple, and in our faith there was a long period of time where there was no temple, people could still make covenants with God in the hopes that those covenants would lead into their everyday life. And Stephen saying, “Yeah, you guys have the temple, but what good is it doing to you? Look at how you treat everybody around you and how you respond when a genuine prophet comes into your midst. You can’t see past the temple to the person who’s inspired the temple and everything that you’ve been doing.”

John Bytheway: 17:38 I remember somebody speaking about the temple, and the more we go to the temple, the more the temple is in us. It’s that sort of an idea. Not just the going to it and showing up at the geography, but having it become a part of us. So thank you. I appreciate that.

Hank Smith: 17:54 The manual brings up a great point here from Stephen’s speech. It says, “The Jewish leaders were responsible for preparing the people for the coming of the Messiah, yet they had failed to recognize the Messiah and rejected him. How did this happen? Part of the answer may be found in Stephen’s words, Acts 7, 51, ‘You do always resist the Holy Ghost.’ ” And then it goes on to ask some great questions. What do you think it means to resist the Holy Ghost? Why does resisting the Holy Ghost lead to rejecting the Savior and his servants? As you read Acts six and seven, look for other messages that Stephen taught the Jews. What attitudes was he warning against? Do you detect any similar attitudes in yourself? What do Stephen’s words teach you about the consequences of resisting the Holy Ghost? How can you be more sensitive and responsive to the promptings of the Holy Ghost in your life? Great little section from the manual where you can take this verse. You do always resist the Holy Ghost and say, “Okay, this is happening to them. How might this also be happening to me?”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 18:50 And it’s interesting that they use a phrase in verse 55 to describe Stephen. They say, “He being full of the Holy Ghost.” So they’re comparing and contrasting Stephen saying to these guys, “You guys know the law, but you don’t live the law or have the life of God within you.” To Stephen who’s saying, “I know the law and I’m trying to have the Holy Ghost with me to direct me from time to time,” because the scriptures are great, the temple is great, but all of these things can become idols in a sense that we worship. I mean, even a temple or the scriptures can become idols if we see them as the end of the law. The end of the law is to connect with God, to always have the spirit to be with us and to receive direction and counsel and guidance that helps us when we’re not in the temple or when we don’t have the scriptures present or when we have to make decisions based on how the Spirit directs us to do certain things.

John Bytheway: 19:49 I like what you’re saying. I like how when it starts out in Acts seven, it says that Stephen, verse three, “Pick men, pick seven men who are full of the Holy Ghost,” right? Verse five. So they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost and all the way to the end, he’s full of the Holy Ghost. Back to the Christmas story, Herod had scriptorians on his staff. When the wise men came, he was like, “Hey, tell me where would this Messiah be born?” They knew the answer. Maybe they weren’t full of the Holy Ghost though. So nice to be a scriptorian, even better to have the Holy Ghost like Stephen did.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 20:25 And Stephen’s discourse here proves he’s quite the scriptorian. Seems like he really knows his stuff.

John Bytheway: 20:30 It sounds like off the top of his head. Yeah.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 20:32 Deliver a resounding discourse on the law where it came from. He knows his stuff. He’s just trying to get them to connect the law and their history to the fulfillment of that law, which understandably, they were expecting something different than a suffering savior. But at the same time too, they should have known that the point of the law wasn’t to destroy their enemies. It was to free people from sin.

Hank Smith: 20:57 That’s awesome. I like what you said that he doesn’t seem to be so fearful of the consequences and they’re coming.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 21:04 They’re coming.

Hank Smith: 21:05 Yeah.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 21:05 Stephen uses pretty inflammatory language. The interesting thing here is this isn’t a set execution. This isn’t a, “Let’s take him to the Romans and let’s find out if we can get this guy executed.” This is a spontaneous crowd reaction. Verse 54, “They were cut to the heart and they gnashed on him with their teeth.” I mean, that is visceral language, basically saying that instead of even submitting Stephen to the law, they’re so angry and filled with contention and hatred, they have to kill him themselves and kill him in a violent, visceral way. This is one of the real painful deaths of the New Testament because Stephen is almost torn to pieces by these people. He’s stoned to death. But contrasting that, Stephen says, “Hey, the temple isn’t the temple. It’s being filled with the Holy Ghost. It’s knowing God.” And in these dying moments, Stephen has his own vision.

  22:02 This was scripture mastery when I was a kid, so I have it memorized. I remember quoting it multiple times as a missionary. I still refer to it in my class. Verse 55 and 56, “He being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God and said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”” Stephen is going to be okay, I think Luke inserts this so that we know. And for his courage, he’s rewarded with a vision of the true temple, the presence of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost inside of him.

Hank Smith: 22:44 And he’s so like the Savior as he dies, right? Verse 60, “Lord-“

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 22:49 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 22:49 “… Lay not this sin to their charge.”

John Bytheway: 22:53 Which is amazing. I mean, I am a natural man. I would’ve been going, “You guys are in so much trouble.” Right? That’s what I would’ve been thinking. And he’s forgiving. That’s amazing.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 23:05 Luke gives us this little tease here that Stephen’s being stoned to death, he’s being executed. But pull the camera back. Verse 58, “They cast him out of the city. They stoned him. The witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.” So Luke is setting up the next chapter of the story by showing this person who doesn’t participate in the stoning, he’s careful to say, but is okay with the stoning and actually assists the people that are stoning Stephen, who’s going to become a huge figure in the story as it goes forward.

John Bytheway: 23:41 I think that could answer Hank’s question. He was obviously in the vicinity when Stephen said that God dwells not in temples made with hands. He was obviously close by. Can I add something else? My students sometimes when we say, why did they have to take Jesus to the Romans? “Oh, because they were the only ones who could do capital punishment.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 24:00 Execution.

John Bytheway: 24:01 Right. And yet they stoned Stephen. You kind of alluded to this, Casey, this is more like mob behavior. I mean, the idea of stoning is everybody throws it and you don’t know who really killed him. Isn’t that part of it?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 24:13 That’s part of it. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 24:14 That’s more of a mob. Ah, that’s more of a riot happening. That horrifying way they stone Stephen.

Hank Smith: 24:21 And I think we probably need to at least mention that when we were younger and we use this as a scripture mastery, it was meant to point out that look, they’re two separate beings, that Jesus is on the right hand of God. So how do you be on the right side of something that doesn’t have a body?

John Bytheway: 24:41 Or doesn’t have a hand? Yeah. Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 24:46 I did an exercise in my class when we were going through scripture mastery and said, draw a picture of what this would’ve looked like. And this kid ran up to the front and literally stood on his own right hand. And we all sat there confused for a minute and said, “What are you doing?” And he goes, “Well, if God and Jesus are the same person, then this is Jesus standing on the right hand of God.”

Hank Smith: 25:07 Standing on his own right hand.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 25:08 Yeah, that was a nice little pithy image. I mean, I don’t want to get into any tangles with Trinitarian theologians, but it is tough to square what you see here with the idea that God and Jesus are the same person. So it’s a useful text for Latter-day Saints and Joseph Smith borrows a lot of the language in these passages, especially when we get to Saul’s conversion a little bit later on to try and describe what happened to him and what his experience is.

Hank Smith: 25:35 Oh, okay. So we have that to look forward to.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 25:38 Let me maybe add one thing here too. Is Stephen a successful missionary? We’d have to say, I mean, no. Yeah, he kind of is a bright star, he’s a shooting star that flames out immediately. Pretty much shortly after his calling is given he has this confrontation, he’s killed, and it doesn’t seem like he converts anybody. But Saul is there and you note that Saul paraphrases him later on. And even though it’s difficult to sort of discern this from the limited text we have, you have to imagine that seeing someone stand up with the kind of conviction that Stephen does, and then also I hope he heard Stephen say, “Lay not this sin to their charge,” starts to affect and work on it.

  26:24 And one of the things to keep in mind is what makes a successful teacher of the gospel? What makes a successful missionary? It’s not always those outward numbers. When I was a missionary, some missionaries were obsessed with the number of baptisms and confirmations and discussions and all those things. By those metrics, Stephen’s very unsuccessful. But by other metrics, he’s real successful. He converts or starts the process of conversion for the most successful missionary probably of all time.

Hank Smith: 26:56 Yeah, that’s a great statement. And Luke seems to be weaving this together. This led to this and I can now introduce this young man named Saul. He’s going to have some impact later on.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 27:09 Luke’s doing a good job here too, kind of showing us who the real main character of the story is. There’s a lot of scholars that believe that Luke and Acts, the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, should be read together, that they’re really one work with two parts. The Acts or the Acts of the Apostles could be renamed the Acts of Jesus Christ through the Apostles because you see the Savior popping in, especially in these chapters, to assure Stephen that he’s going to be okay, to visit Saul later on and perform his conversion. The Savior is still helping all these people down the path, even if he’s resurrected and moving on to other things at this point too.

Hank Smith: 27:51 Wonderful.

John Bytheway: 27:52 What we had said last time too is that it’s kind of the Acts of Jesus through the Apostles, which I really like. Stephen is like Abinadi, and Saul is like Alma the Elder.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 28:03 This idea of success in ministry or missionary work. Stephen put me in mind of when I was reading through this, a guy on my mission who was serving as a bishop. He was a wonderful guy, happy guy, blessed the lives of hundreds and hundreds of people. But one night I’m eating dinner at his house and he was talking to me about earlier in his life, he grew up in the church, but he left the faith. He sort of became a prodigal son and went off the path and drank and smoked and did all kinds of things that he wasn’t supposed to do. And he said one day he was after an all night bender laying on his couch and he looked out the window of his house and he saw two guys in suits coming up the sidewalk. His home teachers, and home teachers walked up, knocked on the door, he didn’t answer the door, he saw them knock again, he didn’t answer the door. And then he saw them turn around and walk down his path and leave.

  29:03 And those home teachers, I would guess, would’ve said, “We’re a failure. We tried. We didn’t do anything.” He said he saw them walking away and he thought to himself, I want what they have. And a couple days later he came back to church. He cleaned up his life. And when I knew him 10 or 12 years later, he was serving as a bishop blessing and helping the lives of hundreds. Now again, it’s one of those things where you think, “Am I a failure? Am I successful?” Especially in missionary work where sometimes there’s so much pressure to be an amazing baptizer. There’s all kinds of success that happens. And sometimes even something that seems unsuccessful, a Stephen or a Zion’s camp or two home teachers walking up to a door can have profound long-lasting effects on a person and their lives. So you never know exactly how your actions are going to affect others. You do what you think is right and sometimes those blessings are multiplied in the lives of the people around you.

Hank Smith: 30:05 Yeah. David Larson from Scripture Central writes, “Stephen was an example of the believers and one who was a witness of Jesus’s exaltation to the right hand of God. The Greek word marturos means witness. This is the origin of the word martyr, which in English contains the additional concept of one dying for his or her testimony. As one who died for testifying things he had both heard and, heard and seen, Stephen became the first Christian martyr. Appropriately, the name Stephen, Stefanos, means crown in Greek. Although he was convicted of blasphemy and stoned to death by those who would not believe his testimony, Stephen most certainly earned the crown of life promised to those who are all faithful unto death.” So Stephen can be someone we think about and talk about maybe more in the church.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 30:56 Wonderful insights.

John Bytheway: 30:58 Yeah, that’s really cool.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 30:59 And he’s a great figure, a Christ-like figure.

John Bytheway: 31:02 Especially that forgiveness and being full of the Holy Ghost. You guys remember how Alma stepped down from being Chief Judge went to Zarahemla, then went to Gideon, and then he went to Ammonihah and in Ammonihah, they spit on him. It was horrible. And as he was leaving, this is in Alma 8:14, “Came to pass while he was journeying thither being weighed down with sorrow, waiting through much tribulation and anguish his soul because of the wickedness of the people who were in the city of Ammonihah. It came to pass while Alma was thus weighed down with sorrow, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him saying, “Blessed art thou Alma, therefore lift up thy head and rejoice.”” And I can imagine Alma going, “Why? They hated me.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 31:46 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 31:47 “I had no success in Ammonihah. What do I possibly have to rejoice about?” And I love what the angel says, “For thou has been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time which thou received thy first message from him.” And then I’m so glad Mormon left this in, “Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you.” It’s the same angel that stopped him when he was out trying to destroy the church. And now he’s like, “Alma, you’re doing so great, but notice that you have cause to rejoice. Why? Great cause, because you’ve kept the commandments since you first heard them.” And I love to share that with missionaries. And you both know I have a son on a mission right now that if you are keeping the commandments, if you are trying to keep the mission rules, whatever, you have, not only cause to rejoice, you have great cause to rejoice even if nobody’s listening to you. I love that little message from the Book of Mormon about why you can rejoice even when nobody’s listening.

Hank Smith: 32:46 That’s beautiful. Thanks John.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 32:48 No, I really like that. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 32:51 So Casey, seems like we end our story of Stephen and pick up a new story with Saul, but then we get a new character also in Philip.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 32:59 Yeah, there’s a little deviation because earlier I think you and I both compared Stephen to Abinadi and said Paul’s like Alma the Elder. But one major difference is Alma the Elder repents.

Hank Smith: 33:12 Yeah.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 33:13 Saul does not. In fact, it picks it up in Acts chapter eight verse one, “Saul was consenting unto his death.”

John Bytheway: 33:21 Yeah. He needs a bigger intervention. Doesn’t he?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 33:23 He needs a shock. Yeah. Imagine if Alma the Elder saw Abinadi get burned to death and was like, “Yeah, I’m okay with this.” That’s Saul basically says at that time there was a great persecution against the church, which was at Jerusalem. They were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria except the apostles. And jumped down to verse three, “Saul, he made havoc of the church entering into every house and hailing men and women and committed them to prison. Therefore, they were scattered abroad and went everywhere preaching his word.” So as he’s setting up the story here, you see Alma the Elder repents, he sees Abinadi’s example and he changes his life.

  34:00 Is Saul like Alma the younger? I don’t know if that’s a fair comparison either. Partially because you get the feeling that Saul isn’t like Alma the younger, where he’s wicked and he knows he’s wicked. He’s the more dangerous type of persecutor of the church. Someone who believes they’re right and thinks they’re doing God’s will. He’s a zealous disciple of the law of Moses and thinks, “Hey, these people, they got to be stopped. They’re going to wreck everything that God has set up.” And that makes him maybe a little scarier because he thinks what he’s doing is right until right up to the moment when the Savior changes the course of his life.

John Bytheway: 34:43 And that is scarier. I love the phrase that Jesus uses. It’s such a haunting phrase, “People will kill you and think they’re doing God a favor.” Whoa.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 34:52 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 34:54 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 34:55 And yeah, here’s Paul, “These blasphemers have got to be stopped,” because he’s a Pharisee and he knows all that. He needed a bigger intervention.

Hank Smith: 35:04 And he’s got a powerful motivation. When you think you’re doing God’s work and you’re not, you still have quite a motivation.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 35:11 When you watch a TV show or movie, the scariest type of villain is the one who thinks they’re the hero of the story. And you get the feeling that until the road to Damascus, Saul sees himself as the hero of the story. The person who’s doing what he thinks God wants him to do, doing the right thing, which makes him a little more frightening.

John Bytheway: 35:31 One of the things I noticed in reading the book of Acts that I kind of hadn’t considered before, the Jews were spread out all over the Mediterranean. There were synagogues all over the Mediterranean. I guess I had always kind of imagined everybody was right there in Jerusalem, but it sounds like they’re spread out already. I guess there were ships and people could get on ships and move around. I’m jumping the gun a little bit, but here they’re going to spread out and they’re going to find Jews all over the Mediterranean. Is that a fair statement, guys?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 36:02 It’s fair to say the Lord is preparing for this worldwide church to kind of spread out. You’ve got the Roman Empire creating these good conditions for missionaries to travel and travel safely. And you’ve also got Jews being spread throughout the Roman Empire and now you’ve got Christians. So Saul’s acts, even though they’re not, I guess you would say outwardly helpful to the church, do set the stage for the next part of the story. But the Luke’s trying to tell, which is how the church grows and spreads throughout the known world at that time.

John Bytheway: 36:36 I just think it’s interesting. They were all over the place. And that’s coming up, but he always goes to the synagogue first and in Corinth and in Athens and Cyprus, and I guess they had some synagogues up there.

Hank Smith: 36:50 Now Casey, why does Luke take us away from Saul and go to Philip?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 36:54 Well, Philip’s the second of the seven. Like I said, only two of the seven get their stories told. Who knows how many interesting stories are left out. But of the seven introduced in Acts chapter six, Philip is one of them as well. And this story also is going to set us up for a couple things that become important down the road. For instance, Philip goes to Samaria, he’s preaching Christ. And then a couple interesting things happen. People hear what Philip is doing and the miracles that he’s carrying out. And there is a man there named Simon. It mentions, this is verse nine, “In the same city used sorcery and bewitch the people of Samaria giving out that himself was some great one to whom they all gave heed from the least to the greatest saying, “This man is a great power of God.””

  37:42 So Philip comes along and everybody says, “Oh, have you heard of Simon? He’s this guy who can do wondrous things too.” And they start to set up a contrast in this chapter between people that exercise the power of God for good reasons, and Simon who exercises some kind of power, probably not of God, but for more nefarious reasons. So they’re also contrasting between genuine disciples of Christ and the miracles they can do and the kind of counterfeit miracles that sometimes are performed by people who pretend to be great, who do them for less than pure motives, I guess you’d say.

Hank Smith: 38:22 So he looks at this and he’s like, “That’s quite a trick. I want that.”

John Bytheway: 38:26 Yeah, yeah. “I could add this to my repertoire.” Yeah.

Hank Smith: 38:29 Yeah.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 38:31 Yeah. He hears what Philip is doing. And it actually says, “Simon himself believed also,” this is verse 13, “And when he was baptized he continued with Philip and wondered beholding the signs and miracles which he had done.” So Philip is kind of a new preacher. He brings in this convert, but then we have the more experienced church leaders come on the scene. Peter and John show up in verse 14. They’re invited from Jerusalem to come to Samaria and meet with those who have received the word of God, but who it mentions here have not yet received the Holy Ghost. So they’re setting up another contrast here between genuine ministers and people that are false ministers along the way, and it’s all going to come to a conflict. So verses 15 and 16 says, “They were come down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost,” which implies they’ve been baptized, but they haven’t been confirmed yet. They haven’t received the Holy Ghost, which this is a major theme throughout all of Acts, right?

  39:27 A genuine teacher of Jesus Christ will be filled with the Holy Ghost and have the power and gift of the Holy Ghost with them. As verse 16 says, “It had fallen upon none of them, only they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. And then Peter and John authorized ministers laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost.” And Simon sees this and says, this is great. He even offers them money. Verse 19, “Give me this power that on whomsoever I lay hands, they may receive the Holy Ghost.”

Hank Smith: 39:56 I’ll pay for it.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 39:58 Yeah. “Hey, can I buy into your racket here? Because this is really amazing what you’re doing.” Peter rebukes him showing a sign of a genuine minister. I’m not doing this for money. And that’s not where the power comes from. It’s not mine to give away. Verse 20, “Thy money perish with thee, because thou has thought the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou has neither partner nor law in this matter, for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.” Good stuff.

Hank Smith: 40:25 It’s pretty brutal of him.

John Bytheway: 40:26 Yeah. What was the story they used to tell? I can’t remember. Someone who was very wealthy died and how much did he leave behind? And the other person at the funeral said all of it. And just the idea, your money’s all going to go too. But also, it reminds me of Peter saying, I just love that in the last episode, “Silver and gold have I none but such as I have,” and such as he had was so much better than silver and gold, “Such as I have give I to thee.” When at first it sounds like, “Well, I don’t have any of that, but I’ll give you… But it turns out what I have is so much better.” And what he’s offering here is so much better, giving the Holy Ghost than anything that can be bought with money.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 41:12 I wonder if the contrast here is between Paul or Saul who’s doing bad things, but with his sincere motive, and Simon who’s doing good things but with an insincere motive. The worry here is priestcraft, that the person like Simon is in this sort of for the power, the fame and the money and thinks because of that, he can manipulate people with money too. When the apostles are trying to say, “Hey buddy, this isn’t a business. This is a way of life. This is a gospel that we entered into to genuinely help people, not become rich and famous.”

Hank Smith: 41:47 Peter does soften on him here towards the end, right? “Your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness and pray, God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.” Simon’s an interesting character, isn’t he? That he does want this gift. He wants to pay for it. He’s kind of a very confused new convert. Probably still wants to go out and be a sorcerer and make money off of this. And yet Casey, you called it from Peter. This is good administering, is that what you call it? This is…

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 42:19 I can’t remember what I said, but I think the contrast here is between bad acts driven by sincere motives, that’s Saul, and good acts driven by insincere motives, that’s Simon. So I don’t know what’s better in the sight of God. At least Peter recognizes unless he repents and gets his heart in the right place, he’s not going to be able to help very many people.

Hank Smith: 42:43 I wonder why Luke put this story in here because he started with Saul, then he has Philip. Is it just to tell us more about Philip’s ministry or is Luke trying to tell the reader, “You can’t be this way, you can’t be like Simon. You have to be sincere”?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 42:57 I wonder if he’s doing this to try and soften Paul a little bit later on where when Paul comes into the story, the major thing we have to remember is he thinks he’s the good guy until the Savior intervenes. And so I think that Luke might be wanting us to not judge Saul so harshly just because he causes havoc in the church. I mean, he’s doing what he thinks is right. Where with Simon, there’s this kind of deep cynicism of he’s doing what’s good on the surface, but he’s doing it for the wrong reasons. In Luke’s estimation, Simon is lesser than Paul, even though Simon, at least outwardly appears to be doing really good things. He’s helping people, but for the wrong reasons.

Hank Smith: 43:43 So far, Luke has introduced us to these seven men that you told us about. He’s told us about Stephen and his martyrdom. He’s introduced Saul, who is going to be a major player later on. He’s walked us through a little bit of another one of the seven, Philip and his interactions with this sorcerer as Simon. What’s going to happen next? I think it’s Philip. Do we keep following Philip?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 44:08 Yeah. Philip goes on another adventure that seems designed to highlight how the church is spreading and expanding beyond Judea. It’s going to be more than just a Jewish offshoot. It’s going to be its own thing that goes out into all the world. And so they mention the conversion of this eunuch from Ethiopia, actually, verse 27 is the biography of the guy, “A man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace, Queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure and who’d come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning sitting in his chair reading Isaiah the prophet.” Now, if he’s reading Isaiah for fun…

John Bytheway: 44:49 That’s impressive.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 44:49 This is a golden investigator. This is a guy we can work with. He’s got the kind of hobbies that seem to give him a proclivity towards the gospel and everything like that. But again, he may be run into the same thing we have with Isaiah verse 30, “Philip sees him and says, “Understand what thou readest?” The eunuch says, “How can I except some man should guide me?” And he desired Philip that he would come and sit with him.” So I guess he’s reading Isaiah, but he’s like the rest of us. He doesn’t understand what the heck he’s reading

Hank Smith: 45:22 Even way back then. Yeah.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 45:24 Yeah. Let me explain it to you. And Philip does what Stephen does here. He takes an Old Testament passage or the story from the Old Testament or an Old Testament teaching and says, “Let me explain to you what exactly this means.” He goes to verse 32, and he’s going to be quoting here an Isaiah passage that talks about Jesus Christ, “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation, his judgment was taken away. And who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.” And the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I pray thee, of whom speak of the prophet this, of himself or some other man?” Interpret this for me. In other words, this is a contrast again between Simon an insincere, outwardly, good person. Here is a sincere seeker of truth that just doesn’t really know what these passages mean, and needs somebody to come along and put it all together for him, which Philip gladly does.

Hank Smith: 46:25 He has some great questions. Who’s he talking about? Where is that in Isaiah? Is this Isaiah 53?

John Bytheway: 46:31 Absolutely. Well, 33 is, “Who shall declare his generation?” It was taken from judgment. And in Isaiah, when you see judgment, if you change it to justice, it makes it a little clearer. In verse 33, “In his humiliation, his justice was taken away. What happened to him wasn’t just. Who shall declare his generation?” And then Abinadi says, “He will see his seed. When his soul is made an offering for sin, he will see his seed because here he has no generation.” I mean, I just wrote that in my margin, Philip uses Isaiah 53 to teach Christ.

Hank Smith: 47:04 This is a golden investigator, right? Someone who’s like, “Who is he talking about here?” “Well, let me tell you.”

John Bytheway: 47:10 “Who is this person?” Yeah, “Who’s this suffering servant,” as the Isaiah scholars call it.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 47:17 And boy, does he tee Philip up for the right thing. Philip verse 35, “Opened his mouth and began at the same scripture and preached unto him Jesus.” So he’s ready to go. He’s without much guidance, but very sincere, very clear on what his desires are, and Phillip sees him ready to go. There was a guy in my mission, I didn’t teach this guy, one of my companions did. They gave him a copy of the Book of Mormon. They said, “Read it and we’ll come back.” They came back, asked him if he read. He said, “Yes,” which when you’re a missionary, you’re over the moon, right? If they said they’ve read. They said, “Did you pray?” He goes, “Yes.” They said, “Did you get an answer?” He said, “I’m not sure.” They go, “What do you mean?” He said, “I did have a dream that was kind of funny last night.” And the guy literally said, “In the dream, a guy named Moroni came and told me the book is true. Do you think that’s my answer?” And my companion was like, “Yeah, we’re pretty sure that’s your answer.”

  48:15 I mean, the eunuch has been completely prepared before Philip comes onto the scene. He just needs an authoritative teacher. So this might tie into this theme of authority too, because Peter and John have authority that they’re able to give people the Holy Ghost. Simon wants to purchase it. Philip has authority, and all the eunuch needs is a person who has authority to come along and say, “Yeah, this is what that means.” And then surprisingly, again, showing a golden investigator, “They came to a certain water and the eunuch said, “Here is water. What doth hinder me from being baptized?”” Holy cow. How would you like to have somebody just say that to you?

Hank Smith: 48:53 Can we do this right now? Yeah.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 48:54 Yeah. Let’s do this right now. Philip said, “If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest, and he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still. They went down to the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.”

John Bytheway: 49:09 One of the things that you’ve heard me joke about this, Hank, probably, but it appears in the NIV, that one of the early nicknames for this movement was the Way. But King James puts it this Way, like in Acts nine, two, “That if he found any of this Way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.” NIV calls it the Way, which I think is so cool. It’s referred to it as the Way until they call it Christianity, and I’ve always loved that because that is like 66.6% of my last name is “the Way”.

Hank Smith: 49:49 Casey, this story with Philip running into this golden convert seems like he’s even on the right page of Isaiah at the right moment. This is a story told in the Deseret News by our Friend Trent Toone. He wrote this story, “The Lord’s guiding hand is often quiet, subtle, and simple. We can miss or overlook his tender mercies if we are not watchful, we may discount them as just chance happenings if we’re not humble or do not truly desire to follow the Lord’s individual plan for our lives. In the late 1940s, a young man named Guillermo Gonzalez was visiting his sister, who was a sales clerk at the department store in Monterey, Mexico, when he noticed another clerk whom he found to be very attractive. Her name was Godelia. Guillermo had recently completed his obligatory military service in the Mexican army and declined a commission. After he noticed Godelia, Guillermo decided to visit his sister more often.

  50:42 He wanted to talk to Godelia. He would walk her home and they would talk for hours. After several months of dating, Guillermo suggested that they should get married so that their conversations could continue.” That’s a good…

John Bytheway: 50:55 That’s a good reason.

Hank Smith: 50:56 Yeah. Yeah. “Godelia agreed. They were married a few months later. Guillermo and Godelia continued to have long talks after they were married. Often they would discuss religion. They decided they needed something more than what their current situation was offering. It was time to start looking for a new church. It was during one of these conversations that Guillermo made a rather remarkable prophecy. He said to his wife, Godelia, “One day two young ladies will bring us the true religion.” “What?” She asked, “What did I say?” He asked. Guillermo honestly had no idea why he had said what he just said. Four months later, Guillermo was out of town working for the railroad when two sister missionaries knocked on the door of Godelia’s parents who lived next door to Godelia and Guillermo. Godelia’s mother asked for help to get them to go away.

  51:50 Godelia helped by bringing the two missionaries over to her house. Godelia had never heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints, so she accepted a pamphlet with contact information. After the missionaries left, a neighbor came over and warned Godelia to stay away from those girls and called them emissaries of the devil. When Guillermo returned home, Godelia told him about the two missionaries. He told Godelia that these could be the two young ladies he had spoken of months before. Godelia had the missionaries contact information, so the two walked over to the missionary’s apartment. No one was home. They left a note asking the young ladies to come visit them the next day. The missionaries taught the Gonzalez’s their first gospel lesson. The next morning, Guillermo was so excited about their message. He asked them to stay and continue teaching. The two missionaries stayed all day. When they felt that they had taught them all they knew, he declared he was ready to be baptized.

  52:41 On May 30th, 1953, Guillermo and Godelia Gonzalez were baptized. 10 years later, Guillermo was serving as the district president, and later was called to be the stake president of the first stake organized in Monterey, Mexico. In 1974, Guillermo and Godelia were called to preside over the Mexican Hermosillo Mission. Under their stewardship, tens of thousands of people have joined the church. How easy it could have been for either Guillermo or Godelia to dismiss what they had talked about that night. They may have dismissed it as odd and simply gone on with their lives. Instead, they acted. By tracking down the missionaries. Because of their faith, thousands of lives were changed forever.” Awesome.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 53:21 Golden investigators. Reminds me of Newell and Whitney. Newell K. and Elizabeth Ann Whitney, who goes by Ann Whitney, have this experience. They’re a little couple living in Kirtland, Ohio. Newell’s a storekeeper. Ann writes this later on, she said, “One night, it was midnight as my husband and I and our house in Kirtland were praying to the Father to be shown the way, the Spirit rested upon us and the cloud overshadowed the house. It was as though we were out of doors. The house passed away from our vision. We were not conscious of anything but the presence of the Spirit and the cloud that was over us. We were wrapped in the cloud. A solemn awe pervaded us. We saw the cloud and felt the spirit of the Lord. Then we heard a voice out of the cloud saying, “Prepare to receive the word of the Lord for it is coming.”

  54:09 At this, we marveled greatly, but from that moment, we knew the word of the Lord was coming to Kirtland. A few days later, a slave pulls up in front of their store. A man walks in and says, “Newell K. Whitney, thou art the man.” Newell K. Whitney pauses and says, “Sir, you have the advantage of me. I could not call you by your name as you have called me by mine.” The man says, “My name is Joseph Smith, the prophet. You prayed me here. Now what would you have me do?””

  54:36 And the whole story with Philip and the eunuch kind of illustrates the Casey Griffiths form of missionary work, which is I do everything I can and everything I do fails, and then somebody who’s just really prepared shows up. That was how almost all the people I helped join the church came into the church. It didn’t have a ton to do with me. I think all my efforts were just to demonstrate my sincerity. The Lord was working among all these people from different backgrounds, different areas, and getting them ready to just sort of fall into my lap and be ready to join the church.

John Bytheway: 55:17 Exactly. I had a guy knock on the door as a Bishop once and said, “My wife passed away,” and last thing she said was, “Take us to the temple and get us sealed,” and I don’t even know what that means. “Will you help me?” So yeah, sometimes they walk up to you. I’m going to start noticing chariots when I’m out and about and if anybody’s sitting in their chariot reading, I’m walking over.

Hank Smith: 55:41 Yeah, what are you reading? I just happened to be reading this perfect thing. Yeah. These are great stories. The work is moving forward despite the opposition coming from Saul, and then he’s going to turn around and join the team.

John Bytheway: 55:54 Kind of shows the gospel going beyond Judea and Samaria too.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 55:58 This is an Ethiopian, which is pretty exotic compared to where they’re at, showing that, “Hey, the gospel’s going to extend to all things, all people. There’s going to be no boundaries.” But they’re just getting the first hints here. The major stuff is going to come in Acts 10 when Peter gets his revelation.

Hank Smith: 56:15 This story of Philip and this Ethiopian man. The question that the man asks Philip, “How can I except some man should guide me?” I really like that because so often we think if I just sit down with me and the scriptures, that’s all I need. I don’t need anything else, and there is something to be said for that, right, John? To get the, what do you call it? The pure source or get it…

John Bytheway: 56:36 Yeah. Cling to the rod of iron, but don’t drink downstream from the herd. I mean, we’ve heard that.

Hank Smith: 56:42 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 56:43 I’m so thankful for good scholars out there and mentors that can help me understand what I’m reading just like the Ethiopian. I think that’s where you’re going, right?

Hank Smith: 56:54 Yeah. I’m with you on this, John, that some of the greatest gospel insights I’ve had have not come from me just reading, but me listening and asking other people that know a little bit more than me, “What do you think?” President Ballard said it’s okay, basically, “To consult the works of recognized, thoughtful and faithful LDS scholars.” We have one right here, Casey Griffith. He said, “In addition to counseling us to seek words from church leaders,” President Ballard said, “We should ask those with appropriate academic training, experience and expertise for help.” This is exactly what I do when I need an answer to my own questions that I cannot answer myself. Elder Ballard says, “I seek help from my brethren in the quorum of the 12 and from others with expertise in fields of church history and doctrine.” We’re not trying to say we want to replace your scripture study. We want to help you with your scripture study.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 57:47 I’ve learned a lot by listening to both of you as we’ve discussed this today.

Hank Smith: 57:51 I like that the story and even the story of Simon the sorcerer, shows us that this missionary work, though they’re joining the church by the thousands, is still done just one person at a time.

John Bytheway: 58:03 I like that point.

Hank Smith: 58:05 There’s probably a thousand different stories of these type of meetings.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 58:10 Individual conversion narratives, people like the eunuch that are primed and ready to go. People like Simon who really want to join, but for the wrong reasons, so they’re not right. And then we get to the main event of this passage in scripture, which is someone who almost has to be dragged in kicking and screaming, but turns out to be exactly who we need at the time.

Hank Smith: 58:34 Yeah. I’ve heard it said before that Jesus is the message and Paul is the messenger. He becomes the major missionary of Christianity, taking it from its local area, Judea, Samaria, Galilee, and making it go global, at least global in their mind.

John Bytheway: 58:55 Please join us for part two of this podcast.