John Bytheway: 00:00:00 Welcome to part two with Dr. Daniel Belnap, Luke 22 and John 18.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:00:07 In Luke … He doesn’t divide them up the same way as Matthew does, into the different discrete groups, but notice that the first instruction that he gives in this element of the atoning process is verse 40. When we get to the place, he turns to them and says, “Pray that you enter not into temptation.” Now, one way we can say that is you can say hope. That’s sometimes how we use that word pray in that modern vernacular. But he means pray. I mean, you look verse 46, “Why sleep ye? Rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.” Now, granted, we don’t have the divisions the same way Matthew does, of the group of eight and so forth, but you do have the disciples asking to pray.

  00:00:44 The closest thing that I can find to an analogy that’s like that is, again, 3 Nephi 19, which is kind of fun. Some of the stuff that we’ve been dealing with, we’ve been going to events in 3 Nephi 19, to some degree, but it’s a before and after. Why in 3 Nephi 19? Well, before Christ comes, the disciples are praying. They have this baptism of fire and by Holy Ghost. And then when Christ comes, he actually has the disciples pray again. So while he goes off …

Hank Smith: 00:01:15 While he goes off to pray. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:01:17 … to pray, he has the disciples praying. I’ve read this a couple ways, but it almost seems as if Christ has each of the disciples, in 3 Nephi 19, divvy up the audience so that you got groups of 12. If they got groups of 12, are they leading them in prayer? So do we have 12 different groups of praying going on, plus Christ? I don’t have a great explanation as to the power of this type of communal prayer, but it’s something.

  00:01:48 I wish I could give more, but it’s tantalizing, this idea of a communal group of prayers. Different people all praying at the same time in these different settings, in these different groups. And yet, that’s what he seems to be asking happen in the Garden of Gethsemane too. We know that he’s going to pray. We know that he’s going to engage with God the Father, but he wants his disciples to be engaging in this prayer too. There’s something here about the nature of prayer that I don’t fully grasp, but whatever it is, it’s profound. I know there’s something more here. I can feel it, if that makes any sense. Having never experienced a communal prayer like this before, all I can say is it’s not unique in scripture. I’m seeing it elsewhere. I’m seeing it in 3 Nephi 19. I’m seeing … at least it’s implied that it should be happening here. I don’t know if the idea is that somehow prayer builds. If that’s the case, then there’s a different way to think about prayer than we do.

  00:02:53 This is why I come back to something I said earlier, I love reading in the scriptures of Christ’s prayers. I love reading about his prayers, because I get insight into the nature of prayer and there’s something … Like I said, I haven’t fully teased it out, what’s going on in these prayer settings like this, but it’s something or Christ wouldn’t do it. Christ wouldn’t tell his disciples, “Spread out. Grab groups. All of you start praying.” He wouldn’t do that unless there’s just something.

Hank Smith: 00:03:22 Unless there’s something happening. I’m looking at the Matthew account of the Garden of Gethsemane. It says that the Savior began to be sorrowful and very heavy. He says, “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.” I’m going to ask you this question, both of you, when have we ever seen him like this? Something is happening here that I don’t know exactly how to describe. Even in his temptations, even in John 6, when people are walking away from him, never have we seen him like this. It’s almost as if he’s saying, you guys, “I am so depressed, I feel like I’m going to die.” We have listeners who have been in moments, in their own personal moments like this where it’s so overwhelming. What is happening here, in your mind, that is really taking him to a place we haven’t seen him before?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:04:28 The simplest answer, I haven’t the faintest idea. In terms of our theology, we’re at an edge now of which we really have nothing.

Hank Smith: 00:04:37 He doesn’t tell us much.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:04:39 Right, he doesn’t tell us much about this. I wonder if part of it is because of just the personal, intimate, even traumatic. I’ll use the word traumatic. We’ll end up here in Doctrine and Covenants 19, which does give us, I think, some insights to this. This is a trauma that we just can’t comprehend. The Book of Mormon over and over has made the case that this is an act that could only be performed by a God. And yet, it’s traumatic. It is absolutely traumatic.

  00:05:06 To the sorrow element, if you look down here at verse 45, that element of sorrow, it’s not just Christ who’s experiencing it, or at least that’s the implication, “And when he rose from prayer and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow.” I don’t know exactly what sleeping for sorrow means, but it suggests that they’re sleeping because they’re experiencing sorrow. The other accounts talk about Christ being so amazed at what’s about to happen.

Hank Smith: 00:05:32 Yeah, that’s in the Mark account.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:05:33 It’s Joseph Smith’s translation who ultimately says it’s Christ that’s telling that. But the text actually talks about Peter, James and John being so amazed as well. We are now at a point where we have no idea what it is that Christ went through, really, and can’t fully grasp or comprehend what he’s paying for, but it seems to have left an air of heaviness. There’s a sense that this place now has become heavy. They’re feeling something.

  00:06:00 When I talk about this, knowing full well that we don’t know what he fully experienced, Christ is going to pay for all suffering, but he’s also going to pay for all death. But what that suggests to me is that Christ pays for all entropy. All forms of entropy, any form, any type anywhere. So death, suffering, pain, decay, he pays for all of entropy. I don’t know how that would feel to pay all entropy in the universe, as far as I can tell. This is so personal, so private and so traumatic that it’s created an atmosphere. There’s an atmosphere of where all of entropy is concentrating. All the effects of entropy are concentrating into this spot and this individual. I don’t know how you wouldn’t feel it.

  00:06:59 You know how sometimes you can enter into a place and you can tell that something has happened there just by the environment of the place that’s around it. It feels sober. It feels somber. Maybe no one’s said anything, but you can feel it. You just feel it. You sense it. There’s a physicality to the environment here that I think Luke and others are trying to describe, but struggling maybe how to figure out how to phrase it. It’s an incomprehensible level to what Christ is doing. And yet, it is clearly something that is physical enough that his disciples are experiencing an aspect of it. They are sleeping through sorrow.

  00:07:37 I’ve wondered if … they don’t pay the price, they don’t pay the physical price at all, but the after effects, the ripples, that price is such that their body shuts down and they go to sleep. This isn’t them just going, “Oh, I’m sleepy.” If we’re reading that verse right, they’re sleeping for sorrow. I don’t know if they’ve cried themselves to sleep. I have no idea, but you can exhaust yourself through sorrow. I think we’ve all experienced exhaustion by sorrow. You’re just, you’re exhausted. Now, that tends to be through your own experience, but Christ is paying concentrated, all entropy on him that I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an element of where Peter, James and John are exhausted from just the after effects of this place of sorrow. You see that. We see where he rebukes him, but in other places, like, “The flesh is weak, guys. I know that.” This suggests that there is a physical effect of the Atonement that Peter, James and John and the disciples are feeling. They’re not paying the price, but there’s something about this event that they’re experiencing, feeling.

Hank Smith: 00:08:42 James E. Talmage said it this way … You mentioned this earlier. He said, “This was a spiritual agony of soul only God was capable of experiencing. No other human, however great their powers of physical or mental endurance, could have suffered so. For the human organism would’ve succumbed. Syncope would’ve produced unconsciousness and welcome oblivion.” Christ needed his eternal side, you might say, to stay alive during this experience.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:09:13 Here, we’re told, in Luke, this is the only place where we find it in Luke, verse 44, “Being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly.” I find that fascinating, “Being in agony, he prayed more earnestly.” Are we learning here that Christ didn’t pray as earnestly at the beginning? Again, we are confronted with Christ presenting a way of praying. We are learning about prayer through Christ. Here, we learn that he begins to pray more earnestly. He wasn’t before, but now he is. Wow. “His sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground.”

  00:09:49 Now, most biblical scholars will look at that and go, “This is metaphor. Clearly, it’s strenuous and his sweat is such as if it were blood.” They’ll claim it is a metaphor, but in Doctrine and Covenants 19, given to Joseph Smith in, what, 1829, you have Christ actually describing it himself. This is a narrator, third person, who’s telling us the story. They’re maybe compiling different events and putting them together. But in Doctrine and Covenants 19, the voice of this narrative is Christ himself. Verse 19, “Which suffering caused myself, even God …” To your point, this can only be paid by a God. This is Christ talking about himself as God, in his divine role, “Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain.”

  00:10:39 Now, “To tremble because of pain,” his body is physically shaking. If we take that literally, and I don’t know why we wouldn’t, because he isn’t saying anything about a metaphor, his body is physically shaking from the pain of that, and to bleed at every pore. Here, Christ says his physical bodily reaction, the physiology of this event, he bled from every pore. Every pore. How many pores make up the human skin? He is coated in a layer of blood. How traumatic of pain is that to the skin? How sensitive is he to any type of touch after this? We talk about how much it might hurt for it to bleed from every pore. I want you to just think about what happens after this event, when he gets a night of lack of sleep, he’s sleep deprived. His skin is just traumatized by forcing blood up through the pores. They’re going to beat him and they’re going to slap him. They’re going to take a crown of thorns and they’re going to put it on his head.

  00:11:42 These all hurt on their own. To be striked, his skin is traumatized by this event. From the soles of his feet to the top of his head. He has to walk. How much does it hurt just to walk from these places, and to suffer both body and spirit? Everything up to this point in verse 18 is described in past tense. What I mean by that is, “Which suffering caused …” That’s a past tense. Following that, you get a series of infinitives, “Caused me to do the following, to do this,” but it’s all fronted by this past tense. Christ is speaking in the past tense in verse 18, up to this point.

  00:12:18 And then you get this dash. I don’t know what the dash represents. I wasn’t there for the revelation, but was there a bit of a pause in Christ’s narration of this? I don’t know. But what follows is, is a switch to a present tense, “And would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.” Now, I imagine things, so that’s probably my problem. This is Dan Belnap’s imagination. But I can see Christ telling Joseph, narrating to him, relating to him the events of this and saying, “And which suffering caused … even God, to tremble and suffer.” And then he’s just back in that memory. He’s just right back into it. You can just see him … Not that he would space off, but just go, “And would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.”

Hank Smith: 00:13:01 And then he seems to change the subject after that, doesn’t he?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:13:03 Yeah, then he just maybe shakes … the equivalent of a shake and just goes, “Nevertheless, Joseph.” I think this switch to this present tense, this first person present tense, reveals how traumatic this event was for Christ. If 2000 years, he still remembers it and puts himself into the present tense for it, it’s traumatic. It’s still traumatizing. I don’t know why it wouldn’t be traumatizing. Like anything else, I don’t think he experiences the pain over. But if you’ve ever touched a hot plate on a stove or been injured, you certainly remember that it hurt. It’s traumatic. I don’t think we often think about the traumatic nature of it, for Christ. He says, “To suffer both body and spirit.”

  00:13:45 I think you brought up this idea that his spirit was troubled, that his soul was exceedingly sore and troubled. I think this gives a small insight as to why. I know all of the gospels carry with it, saying, “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me.” Now, that’s one thing. “Father, if you’d like to remove this cup from me,” that’s the way that Luke describes it. The way Christ says it is, “And would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.” That’s different.

  00:14:15 This suggests to me … I need to clarify that. Verse 18 suggests a concern that Christ has. A fear, even, that he might not be up to the task, “Would that I might not drink the bitter cup and actually pull back. I’m afraid I might not be up to this.” For me, there is solace to recognizing that on this greatest event, this extremity, the extreme ends of cosmic entropy as he’s paying for that price, as God, there was a moment of … I don’t know if the word’s doubt, but there’s certainly concern, “I’m afraid I might not be able to do this. I’m really afraid of failing.” This implies Christ has a fear of failure in this moment. How many of us do?

Hank Smith: 00:15:04 How big this must be for him to have maybe some self-doubt. Like, “Can I really do this?” We don’t know what it is, but it must be … In fact, Elder Maxwell put it this way. He’s using the Mark 14 account where it says, “They began to be very sore amazed.” Peter, James and John, and Jesus, as Joseph Smith adds, “Sore amazed.” If you look at the footnote for Mark 14:33, it’s, “Awestruck.” This is what Elder Maxwell said. He said, “Imagine, this is Jehovah, the creator of this and other worlds, awestruck. What has he seen in his existence? Jesus knew cognitively what he must do. So he understood it in his head,” Elder Maxwell says, “but he had never personally known this process of an atonement before. So when the agony came in its fullness, it was so much, much worse than even he with his unique intellect had ever imagined.” How big is this process of atonement that would fall outside even the scope of Christ’s unique intellect?

John Bytheway: 00:16:23 Going back to Section 19 in my mind, because as I’ve thought about these events … Hank, you mentioned the adjective heavy. We find in the scriptures, Alma was “weighed down with sorrow.” We all know that Gethsemane means olive press as the weight of the world came upon … the weight of sin, however we describe that came upon the Savior. I don’t know if you guys have ever been through a painful medical procedure or anything, and how your mind gets so focused on getting through it.

  00:17:02 I’ve often wondered what got the Savior through this. I’m so grateful to … today it’s my favorite section of the Doctrine and Covenants. I’ve always loved 19, to Martin Harris, that you’ve been quoting. But if you go to verse 16, I feel like he’s telling us what got him through this, “For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer.” I think, “Oh, it was his love for us that helped him not shrink, ‘That they might not …'” There wasn’t a, “I suffer these things for all because it’s my duty, because I was supposed to, because this was the plan.” It was that, “They might not suffer.” I thought, “Wow, the power of his love for us is perhaps what helped him not to shrink as the weight of all that came upon …”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:17:55 Yeah, I would agree. Back to our discussion we had, I think this is a place where our faith in Christ sustained Him. I find this fascinating. I don’t have a great answer or … because it’s just something I’ve explored, but there are places where, in the scriptures, Christ keeps talking about friends, about having friends and being a friend. Now, when I think about what makes a friend, you think of your best friend. You two are close friends, right? We’re friends. So what does a friend do? Well, a friend bears one another’s burdens. But that’s kind of the point, your best friend is someone that has borne your burden, but that you also bore theirs, if that makes sense. Friendship’s a two-way street. If it’s all one way, then it’s not really a friendship.

  00:18:43 Now, I say that because Christ keeps … every now and then in the scriptures, and Doctrine and Covenants, he says, “You are my friends. Peter, James, and the disciples, they were my friends.” I think, but the way we describe our relationship with Christ is always one way. He’s doing for us. He’s constantly doing for us. I go, “That’s not a friend. That can be a Father. It can be someone who I’m close to. It can be ecclesiastical leader,” or whatever it is, but it’s not a friend the way I think of my friend friends. But is there a place where we helped him out? I’ve wondered, John, to your point, is this where we did? Is this a place where we helped him out?

Hank Smith: 00:19:25 Isn’t that what Abinadi says in Mosiah 14 and 15? He quotes Isaiah 53, and then he says, “During his Atonement, he shall see his seed. Who are his seed? It’s those …” John, you could quote this better than me, “Who are his seed? It’s those who believe in the words of the prophets.” Am I saying that right, John?

John Bytheway: 00:19:44 What I love about it is their original gotcha question to Abinadi was, “What does this mean, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of them that bring …” When he answers the question, he says, “These are his seed. How beautiful upon the mountains are their feet. How beautiful are the mountains who are now publishing peace.” And then he speaks to the future, “And those who shall hereafter publish peace.” It’s so good, “How beautiful upon the mountains are their feet.” I’m thinking of my son on a mission right now. All these missionaries and how beautiful upon the mountains are their feet. Those are his seed. He’ll see his seed. That’s what’s so great about Abinadi. Sorry to get off track a little bit, but we’ve got Isaiah, but here’s another prophet commenting on Isaiah. Telling us, “Here’s how he’s going to see his seed,” even though he was cut off out of the land of the living. That’s really good stuff.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:20:37 I’ve wondered if, in light of that, this is maybe why his exhortation to the disciples was to pray, “Unless ye enter into temptation.” Notice that there is … I’m not saying that he was tempted, but this fear that he expresses in verse 18 of Section 19, this, “And would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.” That concern that he has, that fear that he might fail. Maybe this is the disciples, “I need your help. I’m going to need your help through this. No one else can pay the price, but I need your help. I need you to pray. I need you to pray, so that my faith fails not.”

  00:21:10 Of course, the disciples wouldn’t have been the only ones. I think there’s a fulfillment that he should see his seed. For me, this is all going to culminate of course on the cross, where he really is alone for the first time, in a way that he’s never been before. He’ll experience what we could call spiritual death. He will be cut off from the Father. That is the definition of spiritual death that he’s used and others have used in the scriptures. In that moment of just extreme aloneness, separation, isolation, abandonment, all of this cutoff-ness, when he passes over, we then get Section 138, of where he appears in the midst of his seed, and they’re rejoicing. From a Latter-day Saint perspective, as we go from the extremity of the loneliness on the cross to the spirit world where he is surrounded by his friends and his family and his seed, has to be one of the most beautiful juxtapositions we have in all of scripture.

Hank Smith: 00:22:10 It is. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:22:12 And he sees his seed. That was the promise that the Father outlined to him, “You do this, I’ll let you see your seed. You will know it, I promise. I promise. You’re going to have to just get through this trial first. When you do, you’ll see your seed. I promise.” I think that’s just cool.

Hank Smith: 00:22:31 Yeah, me too. There’s a moment in Mark I wanted to mention. Mark says … he went a little further. What’s interesting, oh, by the way, is that I think it’s Matthew and Mark both have him falling on his face. It’s not something you see in art very much. We usually see him praying-

John Bytheway: 00:22:52 Next to a rock or something.

Hank Smith: 00:22:53 … next to a rock or a tree. But in the actual text it says Matthew 26:39, “He went a little further and fell on his face.” Mark 14 says, “He fell on the ground,” as if he’s out of strength. But I wanted to mention Mark 14:36. Mark’s the only one to mention this. He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee. Take away this cup from me.” That word kind of rings to me. When I go to Israel and I’m walking around the streets of Jerusalem, and it’s somewhat busy, you’ll hear that word. You’ll hear, “Abba, Abba.” It’s usually a child speaking to papa, to daddy. “Abba, Abba, look at me. Look at this.”

  00:23:38 Elder Holland said this. He said, “In this most burdensome moment of all human history, with blood appearing at every pore and an anguished cry upon his lips, Christ sought whom he had always sought, his Father. ‘Abba,’ he cried. ‘Papa.’ Or from the lips of a younger child, ‘Daddy.'” And then Elder Holland says, “This is such a personal moment, it seems almost sacrilegious or sacrilege to cite it, to talk about it. This is a son in unrelieved pain.” So that word Abba has meant more to me over the years.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:24:17 Yeah, it’s certainly possible. That’s of course the Aramaic word for father. The Hebrew word is Av. Here’s Abba, this is the Aramaic version. We can look at it in two ways. One as this personal way of saying it. Not that it’s diminutive, but daddy is different than father. That’s one way, is that it’s denoting this real personal relationship that exists between Christ and the Father. There is something to that. When he says, “Almost sacrilegious.” My response to that is “Right, but they put it in the scriptures. How cool is that?” We talk about individuals who share their challenges or their concerns or their weaknesses. We have Christ revealing something very personal about himself here. He gave permission to whomever is writing these stories to tell this part of it.

  00:25:00 The second way I think of Father is … Now, bear with me because this is going to seem way off track. But in Abraham 1:2, here’s what it says, he says, “I sought for the blessings of the Fathers and the right whereunto to administer the same.” If you break that down, he wants the blessings which have been … that are possessed by the Fathers. Whoever these individuals are, he wants those blessings. And he wants the right to administer them. Now, if he has the right to administer the blessings, that means he has them, the blessing of the Fathers, and he can administer them, which now makes him a Father. Which means, we can now look at a definition of a Father in a different way, as one who has the right to administer a blessing.

  00:25:40 That separates it out from offspring. Anybody can provide offspring, but to be a Father, that requires one to have power and authority to do something about it, to bless an individual. In this case, it’s possible he’s also asking and looking at that aspect of our heavenly Father, of God, “I need someone who has the power and authority to bless me. That’s what I need right now.” I think it can work both ways. Hopefully, all three of us in our households are both Fathers. Individuals, of which these are our offspring and we care and love for them because they’re a part of us, but also because we hold authority to bless their lives, and do so.

  00:26:19 What is interesting is the way this is contrasted with what will happen less than 24 hours later on the cross. There, he’s not going to be asking for his Father. There, he needs his God. “eli eli lama sabachthani. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” In that case, he’s not looking at heavenly Father as Father, he’s looking at Him in his role as God, “My God, where have you been? Where are you now?” So we see a difference here between the use of Abba versus God. There’s my Father and my God. I think there’s something powerful to recognize the difference of the terminology that Christ is using here.

John Bytheway: 00:26:59 You guys probably remember a religion professor named Stephen Robinson, who wrote Believing Christ. I think the first time I kind of understood, “Oh, this idea that the pain would’ve killed us,” is when I read it in Believing Christ. On page 123 he said, “If you or I had gone into the press of Gethsemane and shouldered that load of sin and pain, it would’ve squashed us like bugs, snuffed us out instantly. But because he was the Son of God and had power over death, his life could not be taken until he laid it down of his own will.”

  00:27:36 We were having Come, Follow Me with my kids. We were just talking about, “Sometimes we say they killed Jesus. Well, actually, he gave his life. He said, ‘No man taketh my life from me. I lay it down of myself.'” That way we don’t look for people necessarily to blame because we needed him to die. That was the plan. We’re so grateful that he did that, but it was a willing sacrifice. Which, again, is a manifestation of his love for us, that he was willing to do this.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:28:09 Yeah, if it’s not an active agency, then it’s not a sacrifice. If a sacrifice is something that changes and transforms, if Christ doesn’t go through it himself by his own agency, it has no efficacy. The transformation doesn’t take place.

  00:28:25 One of the interesting elements of it, that I find is … I know we call it Gethsemane, that he’s oppressed. We have this idea that he’s being pressed and squeezed. There’s elements of that in Isaiah 53, that he’ll be bruised for our iniquities. That word in Hebrew is daka, meaning to crush. “He’ll be crushed for our iniquities.” It’s the same root that lies behind the translation of contrite in the Old Testament. Contrite is a Latin word which means to crush. So the sacrifice that Christ goes through to be “crushed for our iniquities”, we experience as we offer a broken heart and a crushed spirit. So there’s a similarity in the type of sacrifice.

  00:29:02 But what strikes me about it … This is just an area of interest, again, of which it’s not like I’ve got a great answer. But if he bleeds from every pore … Now, the imagery we have is of Christ being crushed. Now, a crushing would be a squeezing. So he’s being squeezed. We can get that. And we get the idea, then, “Well, then, blood’s coming out of every pore.” But if he’s being completely crushed all over his body physically, in some fashion, then he shouldn’t be bleeding from every pore until after the crushing. Just the physicality. That’s option number one. Option number two is that the pressure isn’t from outside, it’s somehow inside, and therefore, it’s pushing out. There’s a level of physical engagement in this act that I don’t think we grasp or comprehend. I don’t know if this pressure of the entropy is from the inside out, or if it’s from the outside in. Either way, it’s doing something to his body. That’s one thing.

  00:30:03 The other one is the cosmic nature of the act. I keep using the word entropy and there’s a reason. One of my other favorite passages is in Romans 8. This is the part of the letter where Paul has begun to now make his case that, “We can all be transformed and changed, Jew or Gentile, into a new creature, into the children of God,” he says. So you end up with verse 17, “And if children then heirs, heirs of God.” 18, he says, “The sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us.” Saying there’s a glory that we have thanks to Christ that could be made available.

  00:30:37 And then he says, in verse 19, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waited for the manifestation of the sons of God.” If you look in the footnotes, 19 B, there you find the Greek word means the creation. So instead of creature, you could read it as creation, or all matter in the universe. This is a cosmic scope to this act that Christ is performing, because it’s through Christ and we become sons and daughters of God. So what it’s suggesting here is the earnest expectation, this hope, there’s an expectation on the part of the cosmos. On the cosmos. That all matter in the cosmos waits for the exaltation or the ability for a human being to become something more thanks to Christ. That transformation that is made possible through the Atonement, the entire universe is waiting for this.

  00:31:28 Why? Verse 20, “For the creature, or the material universe, was made subject to vanity, emptiness. There’s nothing to it. Not willingly, but by reason of him who is subjected the same in hope, because the creature, the universe, the material cosmos itself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption.” He’s not talking about humanity, he’s talking about all matter. There’s a cosmic scale to this Atonement. We tend to look at it egocentrically, “The Atonement fixes the corruption, the pain, the suffering, the entropy of my life.” But this, Paul gives a glimpse into its cosmic scale, “All matter is redeemed through the Atonement of Christ.” It was made to be delivered from the bondage of corruption, decay, entropy. As I like to describe it, these verses plus the resurrection itself suggest that the second law of thermodynamics does not in fact have universal sway.

John Bytheway: 00:32:29 Hugh Nibley, when talking about Jacob in the Book of Mormon, mentions entropy. He talks about … You know how Paul often speaks of our bodies as corruption? He uses that word here that you just read, too, that our bodies will corrupt. Is it Jacob who says, “There must needs be a power of resurrection”? I think it’s 2 Nephi 9. Hugh Nibley commented on that, “Yeah, the only way to undo entropy is with power.” Jacob speaks of it that way. The power of the resurrection. I never noticed power of resurrection before, but it’s used that way a few times in the Book of Mormon. When you talked about entropy, I went back to physical science class. But here, we see that being taught … there’s got to be a power that can put things back in order. I love it.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:33:22 That’s what Christ is paying for in the Garden of Gethsemane, all entropy for all matter everywhere. Not just for yours and my sins, but for a star that exploded in a galaxy that we can’t even see anymore. No wonder his body trembled. No wonder he shook from this. No wonder he thought, “I don’t think I might be able to pull this off.” I don’t think we often think about the cosmic scope of Christ’s sacrifice, and yet it transforms everything.

Hank Smith: 00:33:53 That is beautiful. Elder Callister, Tad R. Callister, he said this, I’ve always appreciated it because I never feel like when we discuss the Atonement in class or on this podcast that we ever really do it justice. I bet our listeners are feeling that this week at home, trying to teach this. “How can I possibly attempt to explain what’s happening?” So I think you can take comfort in this. He says, “Every attempt to reflect upon the Atonement, to study it, to embrace it, to express appreciation for it. However small or feeble it may be …” That’s how we sometimes feel trying to talk about this, small and feeble. “However small or feeble it may be will kindle the fires of faith, and work its miracle toward a more Christ-like life.” So don’t be worried this week about if you can fully comprehend what’s happening. As Dr. Belnap has told us, we can’t. We can’t fully comprehend what is happening. We can make small and feeble attempts to study, embrace, express appreciation, and that will kindle the fires of faith.

  00:35:05 One thought that’s really helped me as I both study and teach the Savior’s Atonement is this thought from President Nelson. He says, “When we comprehend his voluntary atonement, any sense of sacrifice on our part becomes completely overshadowed by a profound sense of gratitude for the privilege of serving him.” I love this thought because what do I do with this cosmic voluntary atonement? What do I do with it? President Nelson says, “Let your sense of sacrifice …” We talked about this earlier, giving your time and talents and effort. He says, “Let that be completely overshadowed by a profound sense of gratitude for getting to serve him in return.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:35:52 The only thing I would say to the Atonement, I guess one last one, is too often, though, we use the Atonement, rightfully so, we’ve talked about it all day about this, about the way it overcomes negative things, entropy, negative aspects. But if it’s true, then nobody knows how to celebrate better than Christ does. I think there’s an aspect of the Atonement where we don’t take into account. Nobody knows how good it feels to get a straight A on a test. Nobody knows how cool it is to have a beautiful day. How often do we end up sharing our joys with Christ? I mean that. Not in a sense of, “Oh, I should be and I’m a bad person if I don’t,” but how does the Atonement take good things and make them great? Because the Atonement does that too.

Hank Smith: 00:36:37 He made it through. There should be a sense of celebration that he did this, this huge thing.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:36:43 If he knows your pain and suffering, he knows your joys. Nobody celebrates better than Christ with those joys.

John Bytheway: 00:36:50 I think that it was Elder Bruce R. McConkie. I tell my students, “He said something about everything,” because sometimes if you can’t find something, you can find that Elder McConkie said something about it. I love this idea that he said once of the three gardens of God: the Garden of Eden, the Garden of Gethsemane, tomb that was in a garden. We don’t know exactly which. But that idea of beautiful things happening, most important things on earth happening in gardens.

  00:37:19 One of the questions I’ve always had is, why is it that only Luke gives us this much detail? We get the blood coming from every pore in Luke, in Section 19, in King Benjamin’s speech. I’m so glad we read Section 19 because that’s first person. I also think we don’t want any of our listeners to think we are discounting the cross and the continuing events at the Atonement on the cross. Any thoughts about why the other gospels don’t mention this event that happened in Gethsemane?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:37:55 Again, this is one of those we don’t know for sure. But what it would suggest is, if he’s got unique insights, he’s got a source that he’s going to that the others aren’t using. That doesn’t mean they don’t have it, but maybe they didn’t go to it. So as he’s putting together his narrative and his book, as he’s constructing it, he’s looking at different eye witnesses or different source material. He’s going to different individuals to tell their story. In this case, I don’t know.

Hank Smith: 00:38:21 It was given to him … a different source.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:38:23 Right. But it’s interesting that Luke has … This is not the first place he’s done this. The story of Christ’s birth, he has narratives that the others don’t. There, interestingly, he has insight from Christ’s mother, Mary. He’s able to tell us that Mary kept these things in her heart. I don’t know. There’s a part of me … Now, this is Dan Belnap way out there, but I wondered if part of the reason why he knows some of these stories is because he went and talked with Mary, who talked with her son, and her son told us about these things.

  00:38:54 One of the things that Luke does do a great job of, at least in my mind, Christ isn’t the only one who has a unique experience in mortality. Mary also has a unique experience. There’s no one who’s ever given a birth like Mary ever has. So there’s an element of this where she doesn’t have anybody else to relate to about it either. John the Baptist is a unique prophet. No other prophet has really been like John the Baptist and had to experience what he’s gone through. A sense of, “In my prophetic authority, I’m still alive when another prophet shows up on the scene, Christ. I must decrease and he must increase.” That’s kind of unique. Most prophets kind of end on a crescendo note, and their prophetic authority or ministry is done when they die. For the case of John, uh-uh, it goes before that.

  00:39:41 We have three individuals in the Book of Luke who have unique mortal ministries. They’re not the same, but I wonder if they can relate to one another in a way. “Well, I have no idea what you went through, but I went through something similar.” I’ve always wondered, in the case of Mary, who ends up doing something that is unlike any other mortal human being on this earth, if one of the reasons why was not just because that’s the way it has to be done, but because Mary can relate to her son in a way that nobody else can. Mary as mother can go, “I don’t know what you went through my son, but I know exactly how it feels to have to do it by yourself. I know.” I don’t know if some of these insights about Christ’s unique experience come from his mother, but it comes from somebody. It’s somebody in this group who’s able to tell this story because they’ve been told it or they experienced it.

John Bytheway: 00:40:38 So that Luke could put it down. I’ve just always been curious, why is it that only Luke talks about this if it were so important?

Hank Smith: 00:40:47 Well, the other gospel authors talk about the garden.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:40:49 Right. To point that out, John, those prophecies that you mentioned in the Book of Mormon are often associated with the prophecy of Mary as well. I’m not 100% sure those are separable.

John Bytheway: 00:41:01 Good point.

Hank Smith: 00:41:02 Yeah. This is in the first paragraph of the manual for this week. It says, “In that garden, and later on the cross, Jesus took upon himself the sins, pains and sufferings of every person who ever lived, although almost no one alive at the time knew what was happening. Eternity’s most important events often pass without much worldly attention, but God the Father knew.” It talks about, “He heard the pleadings of his son. While we were not there to witness this act of selflessness and submission, we are witnesses of the Atonement of Jesus Christ every time we repent and receive forgiveness of our sins. Every time we feel the Savior’s strengthening power, we can testify of the reality of what happened in the Garden of Gethsemane.” Dan, as difficult as it is, and as much as I don’t want to move on from the Garden of Gethsemane, let’s move to John 18 and the Savior’s arrest. What do you see here that our listeners need to see?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:41:59 Well, first of all, it is interesting that John doesn’t really tell us anything about what happened in the Garden of Gethsemane. That’s just not a part of his story. I mean, you get chapter 18 that begins with, the disciples come over to the brook, they enter into the garden, and then that’s about it. That’s just not a part of John’s story. Instead, interestingly, his focus is on Peter, what happens with Peter. When we look at it, all of the gospels have told us, following the events in the Garden of Gethsemane, or at least Christ’s paying of that price in the Garden of Gethsemane, they get out and they encounter a group. That group is led by Judas, who’s now going to betray Christ. Maybe he already betrayed him before, the minute he left the room, but this is now when it becomes official. He’s going to lead that group to him and identify Christ, that leads to the rest of the trial, which will lead to the crucifixion and everything else.

  00:42:49 In the case of John, they tell us something interesting. In chapter three, Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees. The Greek word there for band designates a cohort, which is a Roman army unit. A cohort is about 600 people. Now, we know there’s a large multitude. If this word is to be taken literally, there’s at least 600 people that go to the Garden of Gethsemane. Now, that number’s big, and maybe this is an element of where John’s playing with it, but if you look a few verses later, John tells them an event that happens that the others do not. “Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, ‘Who seek ye?'”

  00:43:33 By the way, all of the gospels emphasize this. Jesus knows what’s got to happen. He knows the order of it. This is not to say that it’s predestined, agencies played a role in this. But what all the gospels want to say is nothing surprised Christ. Nothing at all, outside of maybe what happened in the garden, came as a surprise to Christ. This was ordained. This had to happen, Christ knew it. In any case, “‘Who seek ye?’ They answered, ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’ And Jesus said unto them, ‘I am He.’ And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with him. And as soon then as he said unto them, ‘I am He,’ they went backward and fell to the ground.”

Hank Smith: 00:44:10 Yeah, John’s the only one to mention that.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:44:12 Only one that mentions this idea that Christ, however he says, “I am He,” is said with such force and such authority that everyone falls to the ground. Now, the scene that John sets up is, you’ve got this cohort, 600 plus people there, and Christ says, “I am He,” and knocks everyone over. That context sets up Peter cutting off the ear of one individual. So they get off the ground … You can only imagine, if you were one of those 600, what would you be doing now? This individual has spoken three words and knocked you to the ground with the power of those three words. “I am He,” and down they go. They all fell to the ground. Then he asked them again, “Who do you seek?” They said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” He said, “I’ve told you that I am He.”

Hank Smith: 00:45:04 Told you.

 Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:45:06 With this demonstration of power, he then says, “If you therefore seek me, let these go their way.” He’s talking about the disciples. Again, we don’t have all the background. We’re not getting a lot of detail. But if I were one of the 600 that has just been knocked to the ground by the force of this speaking. He then said, “You’re going to let these go, right?” I’d probably go, “Yeah. Go for it. Sure, no problem.” John has set up this narrative to telling us a story of Christ’s divine power. He doesn’t tell us about what happened in the garden, where he paid the price as a divine being, we get afterwards, where he is not just the Messiah, this is God, “I can knock over 600 people.” That sets up the story with Simon Peter and the ear. Peter is going to draw the sword. He cuts off the ear. We know about this. The priest’s servant cuts off … the High Priest’s servant. And then Jesus said unto Peter, “Put up thy sword into the sheath. The cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink of it?”

  00:46:08 Now, by the way, that suggests something interesting. That cup language, “Shall I not drink of the cup,” Christ had talked about in the Garden of Gethsemane. John puts it after the events of being in the garden and paying the price, suggesting that maybe the cup is still going, that Christ still must drink from this cup. All three of us talked about how this is just one aspect of the Atonement. The Atonement is much more than just what happens in the garden. It’s what happens on the cross. If the Atonement means to bring to one or to make one, the Atonement has to continue with the work that happens in the spirit world. The Atonement has to include the resurrection. If there’s no resurrection, then there’s no Atonement. There can be no Atonement.

  00:46:50 The Book of Mormon adds one more. If you look in Mosiah 18, when Alma is repeating the word of Abinadi, what he ends up saying is he taught these individuals. He taught them of the redemption and resurrection, which is made possible through the sufferings and the works and the resurrection and the ascension of Christ. The Book of Mormon adds the importance of the ascension. We don’t talk enough about that, but there’s something to the ascension of Christ. In this case, this idea that he’s mentioning that, “I still have more of the cup to drink,” suggests that the atoning process isn’t over. So he does that. Then the band and the captain, the officers of the Jews took Jesus and bound him.

  00:47:34 Elsewhere, in the other gospels, when they tell the story about Peter and the ear, Christ will turn to him and says, “Don’t you think I could call down a legion of angels? I mean, do you not think that if I wanted to defend myself, I could.” John gives us an account of where he just did it, “I just knocked over 600 people by my words alone, Peter. Do you think I could take care of it if I wanted to?”

Hank Smith: 00:47:55 Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:47:56 So we have that element of it there. I think that’s something profound. That of course leads to the events of the denial of Peter, on the part of Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:48:06 Yeah, let’s look at that.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:48:07 When you get into that narrative, that really begins in about verse 15. Now, keeping in mind the rest of the story, there’s too many tantalizing elements that we just simply don’t know. “Simon Peter,” according to verse 15, “follows Jesus, and so did another disciple.” Now, the vagueness makes us think it might be John, but we don’t know who this other disciple is. What we do know is that disciple is somehow related in some fashion with the High Priest. “And so did another disciple, that disciple was known unto the High Priest.”

Hank Smith: 00:48:34 Yeah, he’s gotten in there somehow.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:48:37 Therefore, this is what allows Peter to go in. I think the big stuff is, in verse 18, “When Peter comes in …” This is where it comes back to an idea that we talked about at the beginning of this, “And the servants and officers stood there …” They’ve got a fire. It’s kind of cold. Truth be told, if this is around March, early April, Jerusalem can still be cold at night. You can still have the stormy season run through early April. So if that’s the case, it’s cold. “And the servants and officers stood there …” They made a fire of coals. They’re warming themselves, “And Peter stood with them.” This idea of being with Christ, or with others, it’s here at play again in John. He’s with them this time. He’s not with Christ. That might be something that these different gospel writers are playing with. Who exactly is with Christ? By the end, nobody’s going to be with Christ on that cross. That’s part of that atoning process. That’s part of the cup.

Hank Smith: 00:49:32 Yeah. His circle is getting smaller and smaller.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:49:35 Very small.

Hank Smith: 00:49:35 His circle of friends. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:49:37 Until it’ll just be him. In many ways, that brings the full circle, to me, one of the things he had talked about on the Sermon on the Mount, or the different elements of the Sermon on the Mount is “Rejoice when they persecute you. Rejoice when they do these things.” There’s a real desire for human beings to engage socially. We don’t like to be thought badly of in any context. We don’t like to be alone. We’re social creatures. Joseph Smith talked about this. The same sociality that exists here exists there, only coupled with eternal glory. That’s a paraphrase of the Section 130, verse two. We don’t like to be alone. We see this playing back and forth, “Are you with Christ? Are you not with Christ?” By the end, nobody’s going to be with Christ. He’s the one person who has truly ever, ever been alone. Cut off, isolated. That is a normal emotional feeling that we have as human beings, but we’ve never experienced it like Christ.

  00:50:33 Joseph Smith has told, what is it, Section 122, “You’ve never been that far. You’ve never gone that far. Even when the wolves prowl around your door. If the very jaws of hell gape open after thee, if the seas billow up against thee, Joseph, you’ve never gone so far that I can’t find you.” Christ’s aloneness, his isolation makes it possible, so that we never are and never have been.

  00:51:02 Even when we talk about those Sons of Perdition. Again, I come back to 76, “They’re mine. I’m not going to tell you anything about them. That’s not your call. It’s not your concern. But they are mine. There’s still a level where they’re still God’s. But Christ, Christ was alone.” We can see this play back and forth in Luke 22 and John 18, “Are you with him? Who’s with him? Who are you with?” And we can see that engagement with Peter.

Hank Smith: 00:51:29 Awesome. It seems that, here’s Peter, when he’s with the apostles, when he’s with Jesus, he was showing so much strength. And here, he’s kind of alone, on his own at the fire, and maybe he doesn’t have that kind of strength. Again, we want to be careful here because we don’t know Peter’s motive, as President Kimball taught in Peter, My Brother. We don’t know exactly what’s happening. But it’s okay to take lessons, I think, here from these different schools of thought.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:51:57 I agree. I wonder if there’s an element there of almost a reflection of Christ. We’re skipping all over this story, but we know Christ is going to be completely cut off on that cross. The mocking that will take place, “If you’re really who you say you are, come down from that cross.” We see a reflection of that tying back to the temptations that the adversary gave him in the wilderness. This, “If you’re who you say you are, come down off the cross.” But he passes that trial.

  00:52:24 Peter also experiences being alone. To your point, Hank. I think that’s intriguing that you just brought up. He is alone. Before when we’ve seen Peter, he’s with other disciples or he’s with Christ. We’ve seen Peter act with Christ. Now he’s on his own, and that’s when his faith fails him. That’s when it happens, right here. This is where he needs to learn about what true conversion is, to take it back to Luke 22. He is by himself. I don’t think he meant to betray him. I can’t tell from the text for sure. Or deny him. But there’s an element here where it’s like, when he gets called on the spot, he’s not expecting it and he just reacts, and he reacts weekly. “No, no, no, I’m not a part of this,” but he’s by himself. So we have Christ who’s by himself. We have Peter who’s by himself. We see how they react to that sense of what happens. One is weaker and one fails. But that’s all fronted by that, “Ah, but I prayed over you, Peter, that your faith won’t fail you. So when you’re converted, strengthen your brother.”

Hank Smith: 00:53:29 “You’re going to be okay. You’re going to make it through this.”

John Bytheway: 00:53:32 It’s interesting, or maybe even in Peter’s defense, where’s everybody else? He’s sticking close. He’s sticking close by, at least, “I wonder if I can hear what’s going on,” or, “I might be needed.” I mean, he’s sticking around. I don’t know where everybody else went. I just think that’s interesting, that he’s standing right outside the palace there. Maybe trying to figure out what’s going on inside. I don’t know.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:53:56 Yeah. That’s what brings it again to me. To your point, John. That wasn’t his plan to deny Christ. I don’t think he went in going, “Yeah, if they ever ask me, this is what I’ll say.” This feels spontaneous. It feels like, “I’m on the spot. I’m threatened in some way.” This has an implicit threat of violence in some way, and he just fails. He just fails. That’s how we look at it. We know that he says that because once that cock crows three times, according to Luke, Christ doesn’t say anything. He just looks over and catches Peter’s eyes. According to Luke, Christ looks over, sees Peter. Peter sees it and just starts weeping. He knows what he’s done.

Hank Smith: 00:54:38 That’s Luke 22:61, “The Lord turned and looked upon Peter.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:54:42 I mean, he doesn’t say anything. He just looks at Peter. He’s like, “This is a fulfillment of what I just said.” There’s some irony in that element of it too. The irony is going to show up a little bit in John. But in Luke, Christ had prophesied that Peter would deny him. You just got fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy. In the next verse, as they begin to put him on trial, it’s, “Prophesy for us, if you can. Prophesy what’s going to happen.” You want to go, “You just did.”

Hank Smith: 00:55:08 He just did. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:55:10 Luke shows you that he had just prophesied and that his prophecy had come true.

Hank Smith: 00:55:15 I’ve always loved this thought from Elder Scott. He says about Luke 22:61, “The Lord turned and looked upon Peter.” He said, “This tender passage also illustrates how very much the Savior loved Peter. Although he was in the midst of an overpowering challenge to his own life, with all the weight of what was to transpire upon his shoulders, yet he turned and looked at Peter. The love of a teacher transmitted to a beloved student, giving courage and enlightenment in a time of need.” That he still remembers him. He’s not looking at him in hatred or in anger, just looking at him.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:55:52 Yeah. I think the look portrayed, “But Peter, I prayed over you. I’ve prayed for you. That your faith would be strong. That your faith would prevail.” I think the look conveyed that faith of Christ’s.

Hank Smith: 00:56:08 That’s cool.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:56:09 Oh, I should point out, there is in John 18, this idea that … This can go to part of it, Christ never throws anyone under the bus. If you look at verse 19, “The High Priest then asked Jesus of his disciples.” It almost wants him to … “Tell me, give me the names of the disciples. Let’s do this,” and Christ doesn’t. This is where Christ is like, “Hey, listen, guys, you can ask anyone who’s ever heard me speak.”

Hank Smith: 00:56:31 That’s great.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:56:31 That’s really fun.

Hank Smith: 00:56:32 “I’m not going to give you names.” Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:56:34 “I want a list of everybody you hang out with.”

Hank Smith: 00:56:37 Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:56:37 Right.

John Bytheway: 00:56:38 As we’ve gone through this year, don’t you think, Hank, I just have come to love and appreciate, and kind of empathize with Peter, because I do dumb things and need the Lord’s correction and everything. I wonder if a lot of our listeners are also a little more empathetic towards Peter and the position he was put in. All the things we’ve seen him go through, leaving his nets behind. And then being on the Mount of Transfiguration, and saying, “It’s good for us to be here.” Everything that’s coming, it’s exciting to see. Someone I feel like I can relate to a little more is Peter with his ups and downs and everything. This has been good. To cut him some slack and say, “Yeah, we don’t know everything about this. His willingness to share and to let all this come out helps us identify with him and love him more.”

Hank Smith: 00:57:30 Dan, before we let you go … These have just been profound chapters. You’ve really opened them up to us in awesome ways. What do you hope our listeners walk away with from this week’s lesson?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:57:43 We think about how profound the Atonement is and what that act was. Even as we understand that we cannot comprehend fully, it is worth exploring. It is worth recognizing as Latter-day Saints, we have a body. We believe in an embodied salvation. Therefore, the physical experience of Christ. I’m not saying we dwell on the suffering, but what was the mechanism? What are the full effects of this atoning act? I mean, I can talk about him. It’s the same way of trying to figure out what an infinity or any large number is. I can describe it, but it’s hard to comprehend. And yet, it’s worth the describing, if that makes any sense.

  00:58:22 I think it’s important that we think about the Atonement a lot. Think about it in terms of how he experienced it, what it might have meant for him. I think the element of these friends that he’s got right outside, that are part of this experience, however that experience was happening. I don’t know what it means to pray or to sleep in sorrow, but somehow they’re experiencing part of this process. They’re not paying for it, but they’re experiencing it, which puts them in a very select category of people.

  00:58:53 In the case of Peter, Peter did let himself down. That’s ultimately what I would say. I don’t know if he let down Christ. Christ had prayed over him. Christ knew that his faith wouldn’t fail, but Peter let himself down. And yet, Christ won’t let him be overcome by this. I’ve wondered, “If Christ hadn’t met with Peter after the resurrection, what would’ve happened to Peter? What would’ve happened?” Whatever the result is, Peter does not let this overtake him. In the end, Christ is right. His faith didn’t fail.

  00:59:25 We can have moments where we fail. We’re going to have moments when we fail, but that doesn’t mean we failed. Certainly not from Christ’s perspective, who paid a price, and in that price was able to see all of us for who we really are, and pay the price for that. That’s how he sees things. That’s how he sees us. That’s how he understands us. It’s what allows him to have faith in us, which in turn allows us to have faith in Him. I think that’s huge. I think that’s got to be an important element of our relationship with Christ. Recognizing that he has faith in us as much as we might have faith in him, and that is what allows us to be his friends. He really does want to be friends with us. Not just disciple and master, not just Father and children, but friends. Friends who help each other out. I think we helped him out. I think he helps us out.

Hank Smith: 01:00:25 Wow. John, what a great day we’ve had with Dr. Belnap today. I have learned so much. There’s been moments where I’m just, “Wow, how have I never seen that before?”

John Bytheway: 01:00:36 Yeah. I keep thinking of what you just said, Dan, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” 

Dr. Dan Belnap: 01:00:44 I think that’s great.

Hank Smith: 01:00:46 We want to thank Dr. Dan Belnap for being with us today. What a treat. Thank you, Dr. Belnap. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And we always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope all of you will join us next week as we continue looking at the last night of the Savior’s life on FollowHIM.

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Shelley: 01:01:48 Hi. I’m Shelly. I believe that Come, Follow Me is the most inspired program of scripture study that we’ve ever received. From the beginning, I felt that each lesson contains a treasure chest of additional scripture, conference talks, videos, and so much more. And the lessons are written for families of all sizes and all ages. As I followed my treasure map, I was led to podcasts such as FollowHIM. What a wonderful program of scripture study, as we receive additional insights and gospel teaching through gospels and scripture scholars. This podcast helps to fill my spiritual hunger as I study throughout the week. Come, Follow Me has given me a greater understanding of my Savior, Jesus Christ, his teachings, and how his principles and gospel apply to me personally, and apply to me in our present world circumstances.