John Bytheway: 00:00 Welcome to Part Two with Brother Bradley R. Wilcox, Matthew 2 and Luke 2.

  00:07 It’s interesting to me that Herod gathered his chief priests and scribes together. Now, these are priests and guys who know their scriptures and said, “Okay, where is it that Christ should be born?” Well, we talked about this when we did the book of Micah. There’s a reference to Bethlehem. So they knew their scriptures. This would’ve got my margin. They knew their scriptures, but apparently they didn’t have the Holy Ghost. Jesus was in their midst and they knew it not.

  00:34 The wise men knew it. These guys that came from miles away knew it. These guys didn’t know it. And it’s great to know the scriptures, but boy, to have the Holy Ghost and to have revelation and know what was right there, and this is news to Herod, it’s news to the chief priests and scribes. But the wise men knew why they were coming. Mary knew. Joseph knew. And I’ve always thought, “Wow, that’s a warning there. You can intellectualize yourself and get real smart. But what about the Holy Ghost? What’s that going to teach you?”

Bradley R. Wilcox: 01:06 And if we go back to what it says in the Bible dictionary that these wise men were prophets, well then the prophets knew. The chief priests and the scribes didn’t know. Do we trust more in the high priests and the scribes of the world who are so knowledgeable, or do we trust prophets? Because the prophets in the Americas knew. The prophets here, the wise men knew. And do we trust prophets to guide us to Him?

John Bytheway: 01:36 I love this idea because I remember Dr. Robert L. Millet that we’ve had on the program before telling… I mean, it was a revelation. I didn’t know this. I didn’t know that there were Bible scholars who were not Bible believers. And he said in his PhD program at Florida State, some people studying the scriptures to an extent, they lost their testimonies. And I thought, “How does that happen?” Because they got so into the academic part of it that they kind of lost the spirit. And I thought, “How interesting. They knew exactly where Jesus would be born from their scriptures, but they had no idea from their own revelation.”

Hank Smith: 02:13 Let me read to you something that Joseph Fielding McConkie, he said this about Herod, and I just was struck by the language. He says, “A fiend in a human body, a man who had drenched himself in the blood of the innocent, a man whose deeds were enough to cause hell itself to shudder. None other than Israel’s King, Herod the Great. Herod had made his alliance with the powers of the world. His friends were Augustus, Rome and expediency. He had massacred priests and nobles. He had decimated the Sanhedrin. He had caused the high priest, his brother-in-law, to be drowned in pretend sport before his eyes. He had ordered the strangulation of his favorite wife. Though she seems to have been the only person he ever loved. Any who fell victim to his suspicions were murdered, including three sons and numerous other relatives.

  03:00 Such is the irony of history that the most wicked man to ever sit on David’s throne was its occupant in the very day when He came whose throne it was. And who in due course would reign in righteousness thereon. It was to this man, who personified the wickedness of the world and the corruption of the earth, that the Wise Men of the East went and bore their testimony that Israel’s rightful king and ruler had been born.”

  03:28 And then he says this, ” The question as to whether Herod really believed Israel’s king had been born is of little moment. What is of importance, that which makes the Nativity story complete, is the evidence of the anger and wrath of Hell at the birth of God’s son. The glad tidings of Heaven had no such effect on the prince of darkness and his murderous wrath.”

  03:52 And listen to this. “As Satan’s chief apostle, Herod, with all the cunning of Hell, sought to destroy the Christ child. Of a truth, the kingdom of God will never go unopposed in the days of Earth’s mortality, the period of Satan’s power.” He said there was an opposition, kind of a witness, going after him the moment he’s born.

John Bytheway: 04:15 In fact, there was a joke that people told back then, I think. It was safer to be Herod’s pig than one of Herod’s relatives.

Hank Smith: 04:23 Right. Because pretending to be a Jew, he wouldn’t kill a pig, but he would kill a relative.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 04:29 Hank, that is such a powerful description. I know you provide references for your listeners as to where they can find those quotes.

Hank Smith: 04:38 Yep.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 04:39 But just tell us really quickly, where is that reference? I want to write that down.

Hank Smith: 04:44 That’s from Special Witnesses of the Birth of Christ, Joseph Fielding McConkie. It’s a Sperry Symposium classic.

John Bytheway: 04:53 It’s also an entire book. Can you see me holding it up?

Hank Smith: 04:57 Yeah. We’ll put it in our show notes. You can go to FollowHim.co and we’ll put that quote and its reference in our show notes.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 05:04 Yeah. And again, likening that to our day. Are we surprised that there’s opposition to the church moving forward as we prepare for the second coming? No, we shouldn’t be surprised at all. Well, as we finish with the Wise Men, we look at verses 19 and 20 and 21. It talks about how they went to Egypt, and then it was time to come back to the land of Israel and they went into the Galilee.

  05:36 Now, it makes sense that they would go to a city called Nazareth that it might be fulfilled, which was spoken by the prophets. He shall be called a Nazarene. Nazareth was where Mary was from. Joseph was logically from that same area since they were already engaged to each other. So they were going home. But there may have been more reason than just going home to go to Nazareth. Part of the reason that they may have gone to Nazareth is because it wasn’t ruled by Herod’s son, Herod Archelaus. His area was divided into three areas that were ruled by three of his sons Herod Philip up in the north after Herod’s death. So then Herod Philip ruled in the north and then in the Galilee area was Herod Antipas. And then in the south where there was Jerusalem, it was Herod Archelaus. But he, like his father, was so cruel that the Jews finally went to the Romans and said, “We would rather have a Roman rule over us than a so-called Jew who is so cruel.

  06:52 That’s why we get Pilate entering the scene because Pilate comes as prefect and the Romans take out Herod Archelaus and put this Roman prefect in his place, which the Jews felt was a better situation than being ruled over by somebody who was as cruel as his father. So maybe they were going back to Nazareth because they didn’t want to be under the rule of Herod Archelaus. And that might be one of the reasons.

  07:25 But I think we also have to recognize that Herod Antipas was the governor of this part of the Galilee, and he was building a palace. He was building a Roman style city in a place called Sepphoris, and that’s close to Nazareth. So maybe they went to Nazareth because there was work. There would be work for a carpenter. Now the word carpenter comes from the Greek word tektōn, which is a builder. Maybe Joseph would’ve been able to find work in stone or even in wood as Herod built this palace. And that may have been the work that drove them to Nazareth, so that Joseph could provide for his family.

Hank Smith: 08:17 And of course, in all of this, Matthew sees fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy in every move that they make. He says, “This fulfills Old Testament prophecy.” That’s Matthew’s go-to move. I’ve often wondered if Matthew put these two men side by side, Joseph and Herod, to just show us how different men can be. You can be kind and good, and hardworking, and obedient to revelation. Or you can be evil and selfish, and completely governed by your emotions and your fears and insecurities. I don’t know if Matthew did that on purpose, but man, you can really see a contrast between Joseph and Herod in these two chapters.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 08:59 They both stand on two ends of a continuum and they are dramatic, beautiful examples of one or the other. And we stand in the center of that continuum, and must choose which way are we going to head? Are we moving to be more like Joseph or are we moving to become more like Herod? It’s a big wake-up call for all of us as we read these scriptures.

  09:27 Now let’s go back to Luke two and let’s do what rarely happens after Christmas. And that is read the rest of the chapter. Luke 2 part 2, let’s go ahead and read that. Mark Pace, the General Sunday School President, a wonderful man. I’ve traveled with him. I admire him so much. And he has faced so many challenges in his life regarding health. He just goes a million miles an hour serving despite some of the health challenges that he’s faced. And I admire him. The reason I bring him up is that President Pace says that as helpful as podcasts like this are, as helpful as discussions are, there’s nothing like sitting down and reading the text yourself. I experienced that this morning because I knew we were getting ready for this scripture block.

  10:25 So I sat down and I read Matthew 2 and I read Luke 2. And just as I sat there alone, not speaking on a podcast, not being interviewed by Hank and John, but just sitting there alone with the scriptures, I was able to feel a beautiful spirit and the spirit teaching me. And I hope that listeners will never get so dependent on discussions about the scriptures, that they don’t take that time to read beyond what’s being discussed in the podcast. I did that this morning and as I was reading, I kept thinking of what President Oaks did. He said, “It wasn’t just the wise who sought Jesus. It wasn’t just the humble, the shepherds, the Wise Men, but it was the holy who sought Jesus.” And he was referring to these temple workers that you read about if you go beyond what’s typically read at Christmastime.

  11:29 So this morning, as I read about the Holy who sought Jesus, it was just a really tender experience. I want to encourage listeners, along with listening to insights that are shared, be sure you read so that those insights can come to you from the Holy Ghost as I felt this morning preparing for this podcast.

  11:52 Anyway, that’s just a little aside, but let’s go ahead and talk about this time as the days of her purification, because Mary obviously had to spend, according to Jewish tradition, 40 days in isolation after giving birth. Maybe that was good, that she didn’t have to be entertaining a bunch of visitors. Maybe a little isolation was a good thing. But 40 days, she had to be isolated, and then they were able to take him to the temple.

  12:28 In verse 23, it says, ” Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord.” Now, that was only firstborn sons, and not sons that were born later, but they were considered holy. That’s one of the reasons that they had to pay this sacrifice. Joseph came, Mary came, and it was, this sacrifice was part of her ritual cleansing. But Joseph came to pay a tax, so to speak, that was required of the first born, so that they would be excused from priestly service, so that they would not have to spend their life in priestly service. He’s actually paying this tax excusing Christ from priestly service, and yet Jesus is born to become the high priest of good things to come. He is born to become the high priest that would part the veil, and enter into the Holy of Holies, and there make it possible through his blood to be able to have all of us go through the veil into the Celestial Kingdom.

  13:42 So it’s kind of interesting. That was a thought that I pondered this morning as I was reading, that Joseph was excusing him from this priestly duty, but he was literally born to it. Thus the frankincense. The high priest on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, would go into the Holy of Holies, and he would take coals, with the frankincense, the smoke going up to heaven, and he would take that with him along with the blood of the sacrifice into that Holy of Holies. What an appropriate gift that the wise men brought. Gold for a king, myrrh, which they used to embalm or to prepare dead bodies for a savior, and frankincense, which was used in the temple to symbolize the sweet smell of forgiveness, and the smoke rising like prayers to heaven. And here they’re bringing frankincense to the one who is going to be the great high priest.

Hank Smith: 14:50 This is fantastic. So that wasn’t a secular law they were following. This is a Law of Moses law.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 14:56 It says in 24 to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord. And this sacrifice was for Mary, but it was also a sacrifice offered by Joseph. And as John mentioned earlier, a pair of turtle doves, two young pigeons, because they were very poor and couldn’t afford the more expensive sacrifice.

  15:22 But let’s talk about these two. Maybe, Hank, tell us a little bit about the first who sees Jesus, and then John, you could tell us a little bit about this Anna, who is the prophetess who sees Jesus. When I was younger, I used to think they were husband and wife, but they weren’t necessarily husband and wife. They were just two temple workers who had been looking forward to this day. Talk us through those verses, Hank.

Hank Smith: 15:52 Yeah. Let’s go. This is verse 25. “Behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon. The same was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel. And the Holy Ghost was upon him, and it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost that he should not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.” And so when Mary and Joseph come to bring the child Jesus, he takes him up in his arms, and holds him, and blesses God, and says in verse 29, “Lord, now let thy servant depart in peace,” or I’m taking that as he says, “I can pass away now, according to thy word, for mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people, a light to lighten the Gentiles and the glory of the people.” Can you imagine someone taking your baby and saying, “Can I just hold your child for a minute?” And then handing it back saying, “I think I can die now. I have seen what I had been promised by the Holy Ghost that I would see.”

Bradley R. Wilcox: 16:48 All the world celebrates the wise men and the shepherds, but very few go where President Oaks took us in the first Presidency Devotional. The holy. The holy also sought him. And here is an example of a very holy man who God has governed that orbit, as Elder Maxwell taught us, and he has brought this holy man into the orbit, and he is a witness of Christ.

Hank Smith: 17:18 Almost our very first one outside of the shepherds and the wise men. We have our very first named witness, Simeon.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 17:25 Beautiful.

John Bytheway: 17:26 If you were to ask me what my favorite movie of all time is, I would say Ben-Hur. It takes about a week and a half to watch it, but they have a beautiful portrayal of Simeon in there. It’s really good. The next one is Anna, and I’m glad we’re talking about this. This idea of other witnesses of the birth of Christ. And President Oaks’ great comment about the holy, the humble, and the wise were the witnesses. So let’s start in verse 36.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 17:52 This is a woman, too. There may have been young women or girls among the shepherds, but here’s a named woman who also enters the Christmas story.

John Bytheway: 18:03 Yeah. Starting in verse 36 of Luke 2. “And there was one, Anna, a prophetess,” and I’m going to say something about that in a second, “the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser.” I think that’s probably Asher in Hebrew. “She was of a great age, and had lived with her husband seven years from her virginity. And she was a widow of about four score and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming, in that instant, gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.” And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city, Nazareth.

  18:47 So this Anna is called a prophetess, and I’m going to read from our friends Andy Skinner and Kelly Ogden, their comment about this. “Another witness of the redeemer came forward, a very old prophetess and temple worker of the tribe of Asher named Anna, or Hebrew, Hannah. The Bible gives the title prophets to six women: Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Noadiah, Isaiah’s wife, and Anna. In addition, Philip the Evangelist had four daughters who did prophesy.”

  19:20 “As Alma teaches, ‘God imparteth his word by angels unto men, yea, and not only men, but women also.’ Alma 32:23.” Of Deborah, Daniel Ludlow wrote, ‘The reference to Deborah as a prophetess does not mean she held the priesthood office or calling of a prophet. Her gift of prophecy would have been essentially the same that is available to every worthy person who has received the gift of the Holy Ghost.’ Joseph Smith said, quote, ‘Every man who has come into this church, and every woman for that matter who has received the testimony of the spirit of the Lord is a prophet or prophetess.’ That every man should be a prophet, because every man in the church should have the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy.”

Bradley R. Wilcox: 20:04 We also read in Revelation at the end of the New Testament that the gift of prophecy is a testimony of Jesus. And she now had a sure special witness of Jesus. Anna means “full of grace.” That’s what the name means. And I think that’s beautiful as well, that she was full of grace. She saw the one who was a grace personified.

John Bytheway: 20:34 Beautiful. That verse in Revelation, I love that. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, so I love to say to my classes, “I’m sitting in a room with prophets and prophetesses.” Small letter P, but if you have a testimony of Christ, well, where did you get it? It would have been by revelation.

  20:52 Nephi says, “Well, if you have a hard time reading Isaiah, it’s not hard for those of us who have the spirit of prophecy.” And I tell my class, “Well, if you have the testimony of Christ, you have the spirit of prophecy. So don’t be intimidated by Isaiah.” But that’s last year’s topic, right Hank?

Hank Smith: 21:07 Yup. Last year and next year.

John Bytheway: 21:08 Yeah.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 21:09 Yeah. And although Isaiah is the most quoted prophet in the New Testament, he’s the Old Testament prophet who’s quoted most often in the New Testament, so Isaiah’s this year too.

John Bytheway: 21:21 You just can’t get away from Isaiah. Isn’t it interesting they were in the temple? I like that you brought this out, Brad, that Zacharias was in the temple when the John the Baptist prophecy was given to him. Here’s Simeon and Anna in the temple, serving day and night in the temple, it says about Anna.

Hank Smith: 21:37 Let’s talk about that for a second. It seems that the second half of Luke 2, you find Jesus in the temple. You’ve got Simeon and Anna, and later I’m sure we’ll talk about his parents finding him in the temple. If I have to take any message out of the second half of Luke 2, it’s get myself into the temple. President Nelson said, “The temple lies at the center of strengthening our faith and spiritual fortitude, because the Savior and his doctrine are the very heart of the temple.” He later goes on in the same talk, this is October of ’21, he later says, “If you don’t yet love to attend the temple, go more often, not less. Let the Lord through his Spirit,” and you can see the Holy Ghost is here with both Simeon and Anna in the temple, “let the Lord through his spirit teach and inspire you there. I promise you that over time, the temple will become a place of safety, solace, and revelation.” That’s got to be one of the messages of Luke 2, don’t you think?

Bradley R. Wilcox: 22:33 Yes. And especially when you think about how most of Christianity today is still searching for that baby in a manger. That when they think of Jesus, they think of that manger scene. When we think of Jesus, we need to let him grow up. We need to realize that he is still alive. We need to realize that we can find him in the temple, in his house. Yeah, we usually stop reading Luke 2 when we’re done with the manger. But as we continue to read, then we also are seeing the importance of living in this last dispensation, where Jesus leads his church, and he is found in the temple.

Hank Smith: 23:18 Simeon, Anna, and his parents. We’ve got three, four witnesses here of Jesus is found in the temple here, from Luke 2.

John Bytheway: 23:26 Brad, you mentioned this idea about, “They’re still looking for Jesus in the manger.” Years ago there was a church news editorial by a man named William B. Smart, and he published a little book called Messages for Living, but just very insightful. It’s something kind of we’ve all known, but the way he put it, he articulated it beautifully. He said, “Christmas has three levels. Number one is the Santa Claus level, and that’s reindeer, and ‘ho ho ho,’ and hanging our stockings, and all of that, and we love it, and we enjoy it so much.” But he said, “The other level is the Silent Night level.”

John Bytheway: 24:00 … and he talked about the baby Jesus and the story of the wise men and the shepherds. But what Brother Smart said that I thought, “Wow, good point,” he says, “The man who keeps Christ in the manger will in the end be empty and unfulfilled.” And this idea of He grew, He grew up, and this is where for the rest of the New Testament, we’ll be looking at the adult Christ. And the level three is the Christ, the Lord, and the Savior. And there wouldn’t be a level one or a level two without level three. It’s just a great insight. But the line that stuck with me was, “Keep Christ in the manger.” And I think most of the world wants to stay on Santa Claus. Some will acknowledge the silent night, but they don’t want to go beyond that. The Savior grew, as we’re going to see in the rest of Luke 2. And without level three, there wouldn’t even be a level two or a level one.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 24:52 That was an interesting insight. Let’s finish now by letting Jesus grow up, and read the very few verses that we have about Him as a child and Him as a young man. Let’s go to verse 40. “The child grew and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. Grace enabling power of God was upon him. Now, His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover.”

  25:22 There were three feasts that required Jews to make an effort to come to the temple. One was the feast of the Passover. The other was Pentecost, 50 days after the feast of the Passover, when they were celebrating the first fruits of their planting in the spring, kind of an early Thanksgiving. And the other was the feast of the Tabernacles in the fall, when they were celebrating the final harvest of the year. They were also looking back to their ancestors, much like we do at Thanksgiving. We look back to the pilgrims and honor them. They look back to their ancestors who dwelt in tents and who had a tabernacle in the wilderness, and how God blessed them and guided them through the wilderness. So those are the three times they come to the temple.

  26:15 Very interesting to note that the holiest day for the Jews, anciently and today, is Yom Kippur, and that is the Day of Atonement. But there wasn’t a requirement to go to the temple. Instead, they celebrated that holiday by fasting, by repenting, by seeking purification. Those were some of the major festivals. But here Joseph and Mary, as dutiful Jews, were coming to the Passover. And it says he was 12 years old. And then we know that they lost him. I mean, imagine the pain of losing the Son of God.

John Bytheway: 26:55 Can you imagine?

Bradley R. Wilcox: 26:56 They were coming in a big group. And just like today, adults probably were talking with adults while the kids all went out and played together. You can’t blame them for not noticing Him, because He was probably with the other children, or they assumed He was. But when they finally realized He wasn’t there, then they went back and they found Him in the temple. Look at verse 46. “It came to pass that after three days, they found Him in the temple sitting in the midst of the doctors.” Look at the footnote B. It says, “The Greek teachers.” “Both hearing them and asking them questions.” Look at the footnote C. It says, “Joseph Smith translation, and they were hearing Him and asking Him questions.” So He wasn’t just eager to learn from these men, but He was literally teaching these men. And 47 says, “All that heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. And when they saw Him, they were amazed. And His mother said unto Him, ‘Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? Behold, thy father and I have sought thee, sorrowing.'”

  28:17 49. “And He said unto them, ‘How is it that ye sought me? Whist ye not that I must be about my father’s business?'” Now, who is the one who taught Jesus? If we go again to the Joseph Smith translation, and we look at Matthew 3:24-26 of the Joseph Smith translation, it says, “It came to pass that Jesus grew up with His brethren and waxed strong and waited upon the Lord for the time of His ministry to come.” 25, it says, “He served under His father and He spake not as other men. Neither could He be taught, for He needed not that any man should teach Him.”

  29:05 Now, He doesn’t need to be taught, not because He doesn’t have the veil over His memory … Both James Talmage and Jesus the Christ and Lorenzo Snow … We read in Teachings of Presidents of the Church that Lorenzo Snow also said Jesus had a veil over His memory. So who was it that was teaching Him the education of children was the responsibility of the father? So if Joseph was with his brethren, other members of his immediate family, step-siblings, then the education would’ve been Joseph’s responsibility. So it says, “He was under His father,” but we can recognize that Joseph was a stepfather. So while Joseph taught the other children and probably taught Jesus as well, it was Heavenly Father directly who was teaching Jesus through that veil, giving Him, as President Steve Lund talks about, many bursts of light through that veil. And all those bursts of light were adding up together, and He was being taught with the spirit. It says that He had the veil, but He was given the spirit in unlimited abundance.

  30:23 In Doctrine and Covenants 93:13, we read, “And He received not of the fullness at first.” So He still had the veil over His memory, as all humans, for a time. “But continued from grace to grace until He received a fullness.” So He grew and learned. And the Holy Ghost, the messenger of God’s grace, says Elder Christofferson, also taught Jesus. So He was taught by His father, His literal father, grace to grace. He was taught through the Spirit. And He got to a point where He was at 12 years old and had such a deep understanding that not only did He want to be about His father’s business, but He could be about His father’s business, because He had gained that much knowledge about who He was, the plan, and His role in fulfilling the central most important part of that plan by performing the Atonement. So finally, verse 52, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, in favor with God and man.”

John Bytheway: 31:46 Brad, that verse has a special place, I know, in your heart, as part of the young men’s general presidency, and the young women as well, with the new Children and Youth program. Can you tell us why that verse has an importance?

Bradley R. Wilcox: 32:00 It’s important because we encourage young people today to grow in the same ways. One aspect of the Children and Youth program, along with gospel learning and service and activities, one aspect of the program is personal development. And we want them to be able to grow and develop in all areas of their life, but we need to remember that this growth is not inward. Sometimes we overemphasize goals by saying, “Oh, young people need to have goals in each of these areas of their life, intellectual, social.” And we stress that pretty heavily. But we can’t forget that if we are only talking about personal development, it can be a very inward-focused experience: “It’s all about me, it’s all about my growth, it’s all about me getting better. The whole world needs to help me reach my goals.”

  33:03 And I think as we look at this verse in a broader context, we see that Jesus reached His goals by being about His father’s business. And maybe we shouldn’t be focusing on Luke 2:52 without also focusing on Luke 2:49. If we are about our father’s business, if we are engaged in the work of salvation and exaltation, if we are helping young people live the gospel, care for those in need, invite others to receive the gospel and unite families for eternity in the temple, if we are doing that work, then we also are about our father’s business. And the personal growth comes not from setting a bunch of arbitrary goals just to say you’ve done it so that leaders and parents will get off your back, but it becomes seeking personal revelation to find out what God needs you to be about.

  34:07 And as we engage ourselves, as we completely immerse ourselves in the work of salvation and exaltation, then the personal growth will come for us, just as it did for Jesus. We will grow in all aspects of our lives. Years ago, people would say, “Look at the Scout book, or look at the Personal Progress book, and find out what they want you to do.” And now we don’t want young people reading a book to find out what they need to do. We want them to turn to God. We want them to be about their father’s business. And as they are, then God will help them to know what He needs them to do. And that’s the growth, that’s the personal development that we want young people today to experience.

John Bytheway: 35:01 Oh, Brad, this is great. Elder David A. Bednar, in RootsTech … And was that January or February of 2020? It was just before COVID hit. But he gave this just wonderful introduction to the Children and Youth program. And specifically what I wanted to say is the work of salvation, because we talk about that. I love the new Aaronic Priesthood theme, “I’m a beloved son of God and He has a work for me to do.” Well, what is that work? I mean, we think of Moroni saying that to young Joseph Smith, “What is the work?” And Elder Bednar defines beautifully the work of salvation, you said it there, Brad: “Live, care, invite, unite.” And what I’d like too, as you were just saying, look at that verse and it can sound very … if we’re not careful, it’s all about me and my goals. But look at live, care, invite, unite, the work of salvation. The first one is about living the gospel, but all of the rest-

Bradley R. Wilcox: 35:53 And that’s important.

John Bytheway: 35:54 … are about others. Yeah. If you’re the instrument, what would Stephen Covey say? Sharpen the saw and then go do the sawing, go do the work.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 36:02 There needs to be that balance, and I think in the youth program, we need to keep that balance.

John Bytheway: 36:09 Yes, the idea of wisdom is important, intellectually. Stature, physically in favor with God, spiritually and in favor with man socially. How we interact with each other and to become, as you mentioned, Brad, we focus on others. It’s not just what we do. What are we becoming? President Oaks, that talk he gave, I want to say October 2000, The Challenge to Become, we all know Brad, that teach me all that I must know, Naomi Randall’s original words that President Kimball, the story is wanted that change to teach me all that I must do. But then Elder Oaks, we just talked about, well, when we know what to do and we do what we know, we begin to become something different. And I hope someday they change it. Teach me all that I must be based on President Oaks’ talk. But this is Jesus became by increasing in these areas and that’s the model for all of us.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 37:04 John, I’m glad that you have made this connection with the children and youth program because that’s the goal of scripture is to make a connection in our lives to see how it applies. Sometimes we only see these scriptures that we’ve been talking about today as applicable in December. I think it’s appropriate that we’re studying them in January because these are things we should be able to keep in our hearts throughout the entire year.

Hank Smith: 37:34 That’s beautiful, Brad.

John Bytheway: 37:36 Yeah. Brad, I’m glad you said it that way. When we look at verse 19, and I kind of drew a line over to verse 51, in both of those places, Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart or in 51, kept all these sayings in her heart and we love Christmas, but we want to keep it. The Beach Boys years ago did an album called Endless Summer. I love the idea of endless Christmas to keep that feeling like Mary did. President Thomas S. Monson said something so simple, so profound once that if we want to understand the spirit of Christmas, we need only remove the last syllable and it becomes the spirit of Christ and we can keep that with us. In fact, we are promised we can have his spirit to be with us every week at the sacrament table. So that joyous, glad tidings great joy, Christmas feeling doesn’t have to go away. We can keep it in our hearts.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 38:31 Just like Mary did.

Hank Smith: 38:32 Yeah. The old Christian tradition is that Mary kept all these things to herself until a historian named Luke came along and got the interview of a lifetime interviewing the mother of the son of God.

John Bytheway: 38:47 That’s good.

Hank Smith: 38:49 Brad, I’d like to ask you a question before we let you go. And this goes back to some things you’ve written in the past and your general conference talk that you gave just a year ago. Let’s say I’m at home and I’m listening and I want to increase in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man, I want to be like these people. I want to be like Simeon and Anna and the wise men. I don’t want to be like Herod, but yet I find myself falling back into previous sins or I find myself not making the progress that I want to make. What would you say to someone who wants to progress, wants to become everything we’ve talked about today, but just struggles along the way?

Bradley R. Wilcox: 39:30 Look carefully at the words that we read earlier. It says, “The grace of God was upon him”. And then we talked about how he grew in the Doctrine & Covenants that says “from grace to grace.” I see that as progression improvement from one level to another, from one bestow of grace to another bestow of grace. It’s not a one and done. Grace is not a gift that we get once a year and we just have to open that gift and then we’ve got grace. It’s a power that as we receive it, then more is given. And as we receive that, then more is given. And as John just mentioned, as we go to the sacrament table, then we can keep him with us throughout the year. And it’s at that sacrament table that we can feel that gift of grace bestowed again and again and again. When we go to the sacrament table, it’s not to say I repent of all my sins and I will never do anything bad again because we all know that next week we’re going to be back at the sacrament table.

Hank Smith: 40:54 And the Lord plans on us coming back.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 40:56 Exactly.

John Bytheway: 40:57 He knows. Yeah. Do this again next week, come back.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 41:01 So it’s not that he’s expecting perfection after we have repented. It’s that repentance is a process that helps us through this perfecting process in which we are engaged. Repentance is part of this perfecting process. As we improve, as we grow as Jesus did, from grace to grace, from this gift of power to another gift of power, to another gift of power. And that is how we can ultimately go through what John said. We know in our minds we try to do, but how does that turn into becoming? I think the only way we can see that in our lives is if we look backward.

  41:54 A missionary comes home or everybody says you’ve changed so much. Well that’s because they haven’t seen him, but he looks in the mirror and says, “I’m the same guy I was yesterday.” The missionary. What does he do? He looks at his little brothers and sisters and he says, “Oh my gosh, you’ve changed so much.” And they’re like, “No, I haven’t. I’m the same guy I was yesterday.” So I think Hank, sometimes we need to just step back a little bit, be a little more patient with ourselves, a little more patient with each other and acknowledge the grace that will help us grow in grace.

  42:35 Every time I take the sacrament, I renew my covenants in Spanish because that was my mission language. So I always go take the name of Christ upon me, remember him, always keep his commandments, bless others and endure. And I review that in my mind in Spanish. But then sometimes I also add a little phrase in Spanish because the word gracias is thank you. And in Spanish that’s very close to the word for grace, which is gracia. Sometimes I’ll add in my prayer muchas gracias, much thanks. Por tu mucha gracia for your much grace. Because I realize that the only way I can take his name upon me, the only way I can remember him always, the only way I can strive to keep his commandments and bless others, the only way I can endure to the end is because he gives me the same thing he gave Jesus. He gives me grace. God gives me grace. And with that help, with that enabling power, that divine assistance, that endowment of strength, then I can keep going on this journey and I can keep returning to that sacrament table week after week and weakness after weakness.

Hank Smith: 44:18 You said this in your general conference talk, life is like a cross-country road trip. We can’t reach our destination on one tank of gas. We must refill the tank over and over. Taking the sacrament is like pulling into the gas station. As we repent and renew our covenants, we pledge our willingness to keep the commandments and God and Christ bless us with the Holy Spirit. In short, we promise to press forward on our journey and God and Christ promise to refill the tank. Some mistakenly received the message they are not worthy to participate fully in the gospel because they are not completely free of bad habits. God’s message is that worthiness is not flawlessness, coincides with what you just told us here, that you can still struggle and be progressing and moving forward.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 45:00 And just pull into that gas station and say fill ‘er up.

Hank Smith: 45:05 Brad, thank you so much for joining us today and celebrating Christmas again with us.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 45:10 I might finally have to take off my Christmas tie now.

John Bytheway: 45:14 No, endless Christmas. We love it.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 45:16 Endless Christmas, endless birthday.

Hank Smith: 45:18 I’ve heard it said before, you don’t have to go through the pain of putting the tree back up if you never take it down. Well, we’re grateful that you’d spend a few hours with us. Thank you so much for your time.

Bradley R. Wilcox: 45:31 Oh, it’s been a joy to be with you. I just admire you so much. You’re my friends, you’re my companions, you’re my colleagues, and you’re my brothers. And I love being on this team with you anytime I can. And I admire and honor you for the good you’re doing with this podcast. I admire your staff. I honor their sacrifice, Lisa and Jamie and David and Sister Sorensen, who has been so generous to make this even possible. She and her family are so devoted to trying to help teach people about the gospel and this is a wonderful way to do it. So I’m grateful for them. I’m grateful for all the good you’re doing and getting these scriptures into the hearts and the lives of so many listeners and so many viewers. Keep up the great work. I’m just so proud of each of you.

Hank Smith: 46:30 Well, thank you for being with us. It won’t be the last time you join us. We’re grateful, always grateful to have you. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and of course we always remember our founder, the late Steve Sorensen, and we hope all of you will join us next week. We have another episode of the New Testament coming up on followHIM. Today’s transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website. followhim.co. Followhim dot C-O and you can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on Facebook and Instagram. All of this is absolutely free, so be sure to share with your family and friends to reach those who are searching for help with their Come Follow Me study. Please subscribe, rate, review or comment on the podcast, which makes the podcast easier to find. Thank you. We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilsen, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.