John Bytheway: 00:00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Brian Mead. Alma chapter 17 through 22.

Hank Smith: 00:00:08 Now verse 32, and Ammon said, “Yea and he looketh down upon all the children of men; and he knows all the thoughts and intents of the heart for by his hand were they all created from the beginning.”

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:00:22 In this verse, Ammon begins to teach Lamoni some incredibly important truths about who God is in relation to us. I think it’s really interesting that he doesn’t say yea and he looketh down upon all of men, but he begins to teach Lamoni an incredibly important truth. Those men are his children. He continues on in verse 32, like you said, that not only are we children of God, but God knows all of the thoughts and intents of our heart. He wants King Lamoni to understand the omniscience of God, that God is our father and he knows all things and we are created by the hand of God. He then goes on and he begins to teach these beautiful truths of the plan of redemption. He begins teaching of the creation and the fall and the atonement because of the beautiful truths that they teach about who God is. After Ammon teaches them these truths in verse 32, King Lamoni said, “I believe all these things which thou hast spoken.” And then asked this question, “Art thou sent from God?”

  00:01:27 He begins to realize that Ammon is not the great spirit. Ammon wants him to understand that he’s a servant of God. Then in verse 34, “Ammon said unto him, I am a man, and man in the beginning was created after the image of God and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things unto this people and they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is just and true.” As I talk about the importance of creation, as Latter-day Saints, we celebrate stories of creation. As you think about it, we’re given some really in-depth beautiful accounts of creation. We learn about creation in the Book of Genesis. We learn about the creation In the Book of Moses. We learn about creation in the Book of Abraham. As Latter-day Saints, we have the beautiful account of creation as taught in the Endowment. As we look at those stories, or as I help my students go into the teachings of what Ammon is trying to teach King Lamoni, I often ask this question, what do you think Ammon really wants us to learn about God in the story of creation? Or what do you think God wants us to learn about himself in these stories of creation? We see them frequently and often. I don’t think God wants us to learn how he created, or I don’t think he wants us to learn about the timing of his creation. Instead, in these creation accounts and sacred texts, I think God wants us to learn and recognize the who of creation and the why of creation. That helps us to begin to understand who God truly is. The who of creation is God is the creator. Why did he create? We remember that beautiful verse given in Moses 1:39, “For behold, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”

Hank Smith: 00:02:55 Brian, I love that you said that. Frequently when I talk to young people, they’ll say, and you could speak more to this Brian, they’ll say, “I’m in my biology class and I’m learning about the creation of the Earth and I’m really struggling with what I’m being told about evolution, and then I go read the scriptures, I’m seeing a problem there.” I point out what you just pointed out, that science might be able to tell us what you said there, the how, the timing, things like that. That’s not the intent of the scriptures. The intent of the scriptures is the who and the why. You can almost combine those together. I’m sure you went through that in your neuroscience degree.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:03:38 I think that’s the point of what God wants us to recognize and understand as we step into these sacred texts, as we look at these incredible teachings. God isn’t saying don’t study the creation in geology. We need to recognize that these creation accounts and scriptures are more about who God is. I want my students to understand some of the most important things that we learn about God in these accounts is that God is all knowing, that God is somebody who knows all things. A second thing that I want them to understand is the power of God, that God is all powerful. And then finally, that God is our loving Father. It’s important that we learn and recognize all three of these things and the importance of them operating together. What if we knew that God was all knowing and that he was all powerful, but what if we didn’t know that he was a loving father? What type of God is that? That is all knowing, he’s all powerful, but he’s not a loving father?

Hank Smith: 00:04:36 That’s scary.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:04:38 Yeah, it’s scary. Or what about if we know that God is our father, he’s a loving father and we know that he’s all powerful, but he’s not all knowing. What type of God is that?

Hank Smith: 00:04:50 Very limited, even more scary.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:04:53 It’s limited and scary. It’s not the type of God that we can place faith and trust in. You see, we see within this mortal experience that God, our loving father, is going to ask us to do difficult things. God is going to ask us to walk a covenant path, but if we know that God is our loving father and that he wants us to return to him and to experience things throughout mortality in his plan that helps us to become like him. And if we know that he’s all knowledgeable, that he knows all things from the beginning and the end. And if we know that he has all power to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life, this is the God that Ammon wants King Lamoni to place his faith and trust in.

John Bytheway: 00:05:32 What I love about this is the king changed in Ammon’s presence. You read verse five where King Lamoni thought, whatever we do is right; but now someone with him who has the spirit of the Lord, now he begins to fear that he had done wrong. I hear these stories all the time, I’m sure you have of, “Oh, my friends don’t swear around me and they stop other people from swearing around me.” It’s interesting that being in Ammon’s presence had that kind of impact on the king where suddenly now I fear I’ve done wrong in slaying the servants. And you know what it reminded me of? Acts chapter 17 where Paul is on Mars’ Hill and starts to tell them what God is really like, that we are his offspring, how important that is to start where what kind of being is God. I’m looking back and forth going, there’s some interesting parallels here from Ammon teaching about God and Paul teaching on Mars’ Hill and trying to tell them what God is really like. And he’s not like the Greek gods capricious and mean, but he’s our father.

  00:06:45 In Acts 17:26, here’s Paul explaining God to the Athenians, “Hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth. Hath determined the times before appointed, the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.” And the JST says, “If they are willing to find him for he is not far from every one of us.” It’s beautiful teaching that Paul’s giving that sounds like what Ammon’s doing. Hank, you mentioned those wonderful adjectives, wise yet harmless. My son, Andrew, was once, “Hey look dad, this is what it says in Matthew 10. Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves. And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake.” And I was like, “Whoa, what a parallel.” Same thing for Ammon. Be wise and harmless and you’ll stand before kings.

Hank Smith: 00:07:47 Brian, as you read that, isn’t it interesting that he has the chance to teach? What does he teach? Creation, Fall, Atonement. The Lord has a chance to teach us in the temple. What does he teach us? Creation, Fall, Atonement. Isn’t the same thing in the articles of faith? We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, the fall. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved. Here, Joseph Smith has an opportunity to teach. What does he teach? Creation, Fall, Atonement. I bet I know what’s coming next, Article of Faith 4, repentance and baptism. I have a feeling that’s coming up next.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:08:30 It is. Each of these things that you explained, Hank, Creation, Fall and Atonement, go back to that idea of identity and who we are. As Latter-day Saints, the most important truth that we seek or try to help people to understand is that identity. Go back to your primary experience. We learn a lot of songs when we go into primary, we learn about popcorn popping on the apricot tree, but what’s one of the other songs that we first learn?

Hank Smith: 00:08:53 Yeah, I am a child of God.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:08:56 Every week the young women stand up and what do they begin saying? I’m a beloved daughter of heavenly parents. It’s a statement of identity. But the young men should stand up and say, I am a beloved son of God. It is all about identity. That is we understand Creation, Fall, and Atonement of Jesus Christ. We understand our identity as a child of a loving Heavenly Father. A number of years ago I was invited to a wedding reception of two of my students that I taught at Springville High with you, Hank. They had grown up, they had gone on missions; they had come home from missions and they decided to get married to each other and they invited us to their wedding reception. Annie couldn’t make it that night, so I went to the wedding reception with my daughters. Their wedding reception was on one of their family farms. It was awesome.

  00:09:39 We went, we talked to the bride and groom. Of course we ate treats and then Andalyn turned to me and said, “Why don’t you take your girls around and show them the farm?” We’re walking around the farm and we’re looking at all of these animals together, me recognizing the importance of creation, looking at these baby animals and everything else that was there on the farm. I looked at my three daughters and I said something like, “Isn’t it awesome that this baby cow is going to grow up to be a horse?” And all three of them looked at me. They immediately knew that what I said was completely false and my youngest at that time, one of the phrases that she always said was something like, “Dad, that’s ridiculous.” So this little three-year-old wheels on me, and as a three-year-old, she gets it. She said, “Dad, that’s ridiculous.”

  00:10:18 We kept walking, we kept looking at things. I said something like, “Isn’t it awesome that this little duck is going to grow up to be a chicken?” And again, she immediately knows as a three-year-old, little ducks don’t grow up to be chickens. They grow up to be big ducks. Me being the religion teacher, I looked at this girl and I said, “Okay, if little cows grow up to be big cows and little ducks grow up to be big ducks, what do little children of God grow up to become?” And it was this great little moment of creation. She understood creation even though she hadn’t thought in these terms, and she looked at me and she said, “They grow up to be big children of God.” You see, that’s the beauty of knowing that we are literal creations of God. We are his children. We make choices of agency that come through our own faults as we exercise agency maybe in ways that take us contrary to God. And we have a Savior whose atonement allows us to return and to become better and to repent of those choices.

  00:11:19 You can see this pattern is the same pattern of teaching the idea there is a God and then teaching of the Creation, the Fall, and Atonement, is the exact same thing that Aaron’s going to do in chapter 22 as he teaches King Lamoni’s father. We’ll get into this chapter in a moment, but I want to share the chapter heading so that we can see this pattern. The chapter heading for Alma 22 states, “Aaron teaches Lamoni’s father about the creation, the fall of Adam and the plan of redemption through Christ.” And as the king of all of the Lamanites begins to understand this pattern, there is a God and we learn of him and his nature through the creation of the fall and the atonement of Jesus Christ; his heart changes like the heart of his son.

John Bytheway: 00:12:00 Verse 39 of Alma 18, “He expounded unto them the plan of redemption.” And so often in the Book Mormon, it’s followed by this phrase, “Which was prepared from the foundation of the world.” This was the plan that a Redeemer would come from the beginning. I mention this because there are some schools of thought that, well, we’re all supposed to be living in paradise, but Adam and Eve messed up. And no, actually the plan of redemption, the Atonement was prepared in the pre-mortal existence. This was always the plan. So it’s fun if you look for it, how often you will see right after something about the Atonement, it’ll be followed by, “Which was prepared from the foundation of the world.”

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:12:44 I love what Sister Harkness, how she described faith. She said, “Well, faith is not a perfect knowledge.” And then she quotes Neal A. Maxwell, “It brings a deep trust in God whose knowledge is perfect.” And it’s in this chapter that we begin to see men and women who don’t fully understand what is happening or they don’t have a clarity of what’s going on and yet they have a great trust and faith in God who does. I want to share some of the incredible examples of faith that we see from a couple of women here in chapter 19. The first one is the queen, King Lamoni’s wife. It says, “And it came to pass it after two days and two nights they were about to take Lamoni’s body and lay it in a sepulcher, which they had made for the purpose of burying their dead. Now the Queen having heard of the fame of Ammon, therefore, she sent and desired that he should come in unto her.”

  00:13:36 It’s an interesting question to think, where’s the queen been in all of this? We may naturally assume that she’s maybe there when Ammon shows up, but we have no record of her really up to this point. All she knows is that her husband is unresponsive. He’s been that way for two days and two nights. Some are saying that it’s time to bury the king and she reaches out to the servant of the Lord. She reaches out to Ammon. And then in verse three it says, “And it came to pass that Ammon did as he was commanded and went in unto the queen and desired to know what she would that he should do. And she said unto him, the servants of my husband have made it known unto me that thou art the prophet of a Holy God and that thou has power to do many mighty works in his name.”

  00:14:17 We don’t know where she’s been in the storyline up to this point, but she has heard of Ammon. And in this moment that she doesn’t know what to do, she reaches out to one of the Lord’s servants or who she places faith and trust, is one of the Lord’s servants. And asks him to come in to visit with her and she tells him, “Therefore, if this is the case I would that you should go in and see my husband for he’s been laid upon his bed for the space of two days and two nights.” And we mentioned earlier that Ammon is really good in understanding the importance of timing. We don’t know what’s gone on over these past two days. We don’t know exactly what Ammon’s been doing, but he has wanted to visit with the queen and he waits for her to act in faith and to reach out to him. And as we look in verse six, everything that’s going on with Lamoni, he knows that the dark veil of unbelief is being cast away from his mind.

  00:15:05 He knows that the light is descending upon his mind. Ammon said unto the queen, “He is not dead, but he sleepeth in God and on the morrow he shall rise again; therefore bury him not.” And Ammon said unto her, “Believest thou this?” We don’t know where she’s been in this entire story, but in this moment as she stands with Ammon, she chooses to exercise faith and she said unto him, “I have no witness save thy word and the word of our servants. Nevertheless, I believe that it shall be according as thou hast said.” And Ammon said unto her, “Blessed art thou because of thy exceeding faith. I say unto thee, woman, there has not been such great faith among all the people of the Nephites.” And the queen goes and she stands vigil by the bed of the king, fully expecting him to wake up in the morning.

Hank Smith: 00:15:52 Brian, I love that you’ve pointed out the faith of the queen here. This might be something that people skip over as they teach these lessons; but if you stop, you really see her saying, “Look, here’s what everyone else is saying, but I want to talk to you.” If we use Ammon as a prophetic figure, seeing that, “I want to hear from you.” What a great model for today, right? Here’s what everyone else is saying. Here’s what they’re saying over here on this social media platform. Here’s what they’re saying over here on this social media platform. I want to hear what you have to say for yourself. And then she trusts that prophetic figure no matter what others are saying.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:16:31 I think it’s a powerful thing, being willing to listen to the Lord’s servants. I had an experience a number of years ago when Elder Holland came and he spoke at BYU. And immediately after Elder Holland spoke, I was leaving the Marriott Center going back to my office, it was right when I first came to BYU. My phone rings with somebody and they said, “What did Elder Holland just say at BYU?” I said, “Well, what do you mean?” He said, “I heard Elder Holland said some pretty inflammatory things at BYU.” I said, “Will you just go and listen to Elder Holland? Don’t listen to what everybody else is saying. Will you go and listen to what Elder Holland is saying and then call me back?” It took a couple of days for that to become available so that he could listen to the words of Elder Holland. After a couple of days, he called me back and he said, “It’s not like what everybody else was saying.” His heart was softened as he actually listened to the words of the Lord’s servant.

John Bytheway: 00:17:21 Brian, you are written on the top of my page 257 now. I love that. Examples of people who don’t know what’s going on, that have great faith in God. We have all been there. We might currently be there. What is going on? But I’m not going to abandon my faith in God. That’s a great way to frame this chapter. Thank you.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:17:45 Let me share one other example of somebody I love who exercises incredible faith in God, and she’s introduced for the very first time in verse 16. As the queen stands vigil at the bed of the king, the king wakes up in the morning just as Ammon predicted he would, and he stands and he begins to teach at the glory of God. He’s come to know who God is and he begins to rejoice and he’s filled with joy. It’s in that moment of joy that the king once again drops to the earth. The Queen in her moment of joy, as she realizes and as she begins to exercise faith in who God is, she drops to the earth. We get this beautiful moment where Ammon in verse 14 drops to his knees and begins to pour out his heart and thanks to God, but Ammon is on this mission for 14 years.

  00:18:32 We don’t know how far into the experience or how far in those 14 years that he is, that his heart is filled with joy, he also drops to the earth. And then in verse 15, a number of servants, they begin to exercise faith and they drop to the earth. And then in verse 16, we’re introduced to another hero that I have here in this chapter of the Book of Mormon. It’s somebody who only gets a couple of verses, and yet I love the way that she exercises faith. And let me begin reading in verse 16, it says, “And it came to pass that they did call on the name of the Lord, with their might, even until they had fallen to the earth,” talking about the servants. “Save it were one of the Lamanitish women whose name was Abish, she having been converted unto the Lord for many years on account of a remarkable vision of her father.”

  00:19:17 I really like something that Brant Gardner said a number of years ago. He said this, and I’ll quote him, he says, “The preservation of her name is even more remarkable. Not only because she was a woman, but she was a servant. Both factors would virtually guarantee her anonymity.” Now, as we look at her and as we look at her story, I wish that we knew more about her. We do know that she’s converted unto the Lord for many years on account of a remarkable vision of her father. And for many years I’d read that and I thought, well, maybe it was like the experience of Lehi and Nephi; that Lehi had seen a vision and his son Nephi believed the vision and we can read it that way. But a couple of years ago, somebody shared, well, maybe it was Abish having a vision about her father.

  00:19:59 Maybe her father had passed away and she has seen her father. Kind of like the experience that Joseph Smith had with Alvin. Do you remember Joseph Smith’s older brother Alvin? He died before baptism. I don’t know if you can recall the experience the Smith family had at Alvin’s funeral, that the preacher of that funeral said that Alvin would be in hell because he wasn’t baptized? And I love how God gives Joseph Smith in Doctrine and Covenants section 137, a vision of eternity, that Joseph Smith sees Alvin, he sees him in the celestial kingdom. Joseph Smith is surprised to see him there because he did die without baptism and it’s a vision of hope. We don’t know exactly what Abish’s vision was of her father, whether it was her father having a vision or whether it was her having a vision of her father. But she’s an incredible woman of faith who’s been required to keep her faith a secret for so many years.

  00:20:50 She’s living among the Lamanite people. She’s afraid to share what she believes, but in this moment where she sees the power of God being manifest among the Lamanite people, she acts in faith. As you look in verse 17, it says, “Thus having been converted to the Lord and never having made it known, therefore, when she saw all the servants of Lamoni had fallen to the earth and also her mistress, the queen, and the king and Ammon lay prostrate upon the earth, she knew that it was the power of God. And supposing this opportunity by making known unto the people what had happened among them, that by beholding this scene, it would cause them to believe in the power of God. Therefore, she ran forth from house to house, making it known unto the people.” For the very first time in her life, she’s able to go house to house, and imagine her running and rejoicing and calling to the people, calling them saying, “Come to the home of the king.”

  00:21:41 “See what’s happening. Come see the power of God,” as she’s trying to help these people around her know who God is. As Abish begins going house to house and calling these people to assemble, we see in verse 18, “And they began to assemble themselves unto the house of the king. And there came a multitude and to their astonishment, they beheld the king and the queen and their servants prostrate upon the earth, and they all lay there as though they were dead. And they also saw Ammon and behold, he was a Nephite.” And we see in verse 19 that the people begin to murmur. They don’t know exactly what’s going on. Abish wants them to see the power of God; but as they show up, they see the king on the ground, they see the queen on the ground, they see the servants on the ground and they see a Nephite.

  00:22:18 So they begin talking about what is happening. Some of them say this is the consequence of the king killing those servants when his sheep had been scattered at the waters of Sebus. Others come and they see Ammon. Verse 22, “Now one of them whose brother had been slain with the sword of Ammon, being exceedingly angry with Ammon, drew his sword and went forth that he might let it fall upon Ammon to slay him. And as he lifted the sword to smite him, behold, he fell dead.” It’s another example of the promise that Mosiah was given, that as his sons would go among the Lamanite people that God would save and protect them. This adds to the astonishment of everything that’s going on. Not only is the king on the ground, the queen on the ground, Ammon on the ground, the servants upon the ground; but somebody who comes and tries to kill Ammon falls to the ground dead. And many of the people are filled with fear and don’t know what’s happening.

  00:23:10 It’s in that moment that Abish comes and hoping that these people are converted unto God; and seeing all the confusion, she begins to be filled with fear and concern. It’s in this moment that Abish reaches out to the queen and raises her from the ground. And let me start reading the beautiful words of the queen as she exercises even greater faith in verse 29, it says, “And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground. And as soon as she touched her hand, she arose and stood upon her feet and cried with a loud voice saying, oh, blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell. Oh, blessed God, have mercy upon this people.” “And when she had said this, she clasped her hands being filled with joy speaking many words which were not understood.”

  00:23:55 “And when she had done this, she took the King Lamoni, by his hand and behold he arose and he stood upon his feet.” And in verse 31, we see this beautiful moment, “And he immediately seeing the contention among his people, went forth and began to rebuke them and to teach them the words which he had heard from the mouth of Ammon. And as many as heard his words were converted unto the Lord.” We have this beautiful moment where the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We have this beautiful moment when faith in the true and living God begins to be taught and to be spread among the Lamoni people.

John Bytheway: 00:24:28 Back there in verse 16, it says, “Abish, she having been converted unto the Lord for many years on a count of remarkable vision of her father,” and we talked about what that might be. The very next phrase, “Thus having been converted to the Lord.” And then what we finished reading in Alma 19:31, “And were converted unto the Lord.” One of the things I did a search once and noticed was that nobody’s ever a convert to the church in the Book of Mormon, the object of conversion is to the Lord.

  00:24:57 That’s what we’re converted to and it’s very consistent. I found 10 references of converted unto the Lord and then I think it’s in Third Nephi, and Elder D. Todd Christofferson mentioned this once in a talk he gave called ‘Why the church?’ They were converted unto the Lord and united with the Church of Christ. Object of our conversion is to Christ and then we unite with the church. Converted, changed, we’re trying to use the power of Christ, the power of his atonement to become like Christ. We’re not trying to become like the church, we’re trying to be converted to the Lord. I thought it’s fun to see. Three times we saw that mentioned in what you just read.

Hank Smith: 00:25:35 This is really significant. This is not the first time they’ve sent missionaries to the Lamanites. When I first read the Book of Mormon, I thought, oh, they should have done this a long time ago.

John Bytheway: 00:25:44 They’ve tried and given up. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:25:46 Yeah, I think Jacob said they had tried. Enos says they had tried. There’s a couple of other people that said we had tried to go among the Lamanites to teach them or reclaim them. It has never worked, but now it has. This is a significant chapter that you might be tempted to skip as you’re teaching Sunday School or teaching your family. But what you’ve shown us here is that the Lord had prepared this woman, Abish, and this was going to begin what you might call the ‘Redemption of the Lamanites.’

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:26:24 I think that’s significant and I agree. I think sometimes it’s easy to skip over this chapter and yet as you look in it, it’s incredible examples of faith including with Abish.

John Bytheway: 00:26:37 I like that Abish didn’t go to the king to wake him up. She went to the queen, of a woman to woman thing. It calls her a servant, ‘the woman’s servant,’ in verse 28. So there was already a relationship there. It’s significant that we remember the name of Abish, shows the Lord can help with missionary work. I like to look at verse 16, even until they had all fallen to the earth, save it were one of the Lamanite-ish women, what’s different about her?

  00:27:04 She was converted unto the Lord. So here’s this member missionary now, and as you said, running forth from house to house. Every missionary wishes they had an Abish in their stake who’s running from house to house, making appointments. And I’m guilty of this too. It’s supposed to be this way that the members do the finding and the missionaries do the teaching. The Lord knew I’m not going to have her pass out because she is already converted, but she’s going to become an instrument too.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:27:32 Beautiful. We see how the spreading of faith in God is now progressing among the Lamanite people. I want to jump into chapter 20. We see in verse one, “And it came to pass that when they had established a church.” And John, I think it’s significant to what you taught of sequence of order. First they develop faith in God, they develop faith in Jesus Christ, and then they begin to establish a church whose purpose is to help lead us unto God and unto Christ. In verse one, “And it came to pass that when they had established a church in that land, that King Lamoni desired that Ammon should go with him to the land of Nephi, that he might show him unto his father. And the voice of the Lord came into Ammon saying, thou shalt not go up to the land of Nephi. For behold, the king will seek thy life, but thou shalt go to the land of Middoni. For behold, thy brother Aaron, and also Muloki, and Ammah are in prison.”

  00:28:21 And we get this incredible moment that as Ammon and King Lamoni begin traveling to release his brothers, they run into King Lamoni’s father, they begin to have this incredible exchange. If you don’t mind, I want to jump to chapter 21 just to share a brief thought of why Aaron is in prison and of the challenging experience that he had; because his mission experience is very, very different than his brother’s.

  00:28:44 As we jump in to see the reasons that Aaron’s in prison, one of the most important phrases that I share with my kids all the time is, “It’s important who you hang out with,” or, “Who you hang out with really matters.” And we really see this with Aaron’s experience here among the people that he goes and he teaches. As you look in verse one of chapter 21, it says, “Now when Ammon and his brother had separated themselves in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, behold Aaron took his journey toward the land which was called by the Lamanites, Jerusalem. Calling it after the land of their father’s nativity. And it was away joining the borders of Mormon.”

  00:29:18 And then we look to see the people that have settled there in this land of Jerusalem. It says, “Now the Lamanites and the Amalekites and the people of Amulon had built a great city, which was called Jerusalem.” We see as Aaron shows up and as he begins teaching or trying to teach the people there, it’s not just Lamanites. There are other people that are there. Amulon is one of the priests of King Noah, this is where his posterity have settled. The Amalekites, they’re the followers of Amalekai, who seeks to overthrow the government of the Nephites.

Hank Smith: 00:29:50 That’s Alma chapter two and three, right Brian?

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:29:53 It is. And so as Aaron shows up to these people, it’s not just Lamanites that are waiting for him, but it’s these people as well, who we see in verse three, and this is why I tell my children all of the time, who you hang out with really matters. In verse three, we see now the Lamanites of themselves were sufficiently hardened. We’ve already had this conversation. The Sons of Mosiah are going to teach a people that are hardened, but then it goes on and says, “But the Amalekites and the Amulonites were still harder. Therefore, they did cause the Lamanites that they should harden their hearts, that they should wax strong in wickedness and their abominations.” As Aaron shows up to these people, immediately he has these experiences that they don’t listen, that they immediately begin to reject him and ultimately they take him and others and they bind them up and they throw them into prison.

  00:30:47 There are many stories that I don’t remember or many conference talks that I don’t remember over the years, but I do remember a talk that President Monson gave clear back in 1998 that stuck with me; and I think it gives a great insight into what’s going on with these people in the city of Jerusalem. President Monson taught, “Friends help to determine your future. You will tend to be like them and to be found where they choose to go. Remember the path we follow in this life leads to the path we will follow in the next.” Then President Monson shares the results of a survey that was done in the church. He says, “In a survey made in selected wards and stakes at the church, we learned the most significant fact. Those people whose friends married in the temple, usually married in the temple; while those persons whose friends did not marry in the temple, usually did not marry in the temple.”

  00:31:33 “This same fact pertained also to full-time missionary service. The influence of one’s friends appeared to be a higher dominant factor, even equal into parental urging, classroom instruction or proximity to a temple.” The friends you choose will either help or hinder your success. That’s why we repeat continually to our kids who you hang out with really matters. We try to teach our kids that it doesn’t matter if you have a large group of friends or a small group of friends, just have good friends. As I look back over the course of my life, I was blessed by incredible friends who helped me to make really good choices. I remember back when I was about 15 years old, I was a sophomore in high school and that year was really significant for me and some of the people that I hung out with.

  00:32:21 And I’m grateful that I had good friends in my life at that time that helped me to make good choices. I remember one time it was time for seminary. The seminary building was one way and I was going the other way with a group of guys, and a girl that was in my seminary class walked past me and she looked at me and she said, “Where are you going?” And I kind of laughed and grabbed me by the arm and literally walked me over to seminary. She started to do that every single day.

  00:32:47 I can remember another time, again, pivotal years for me, 15 years old; my friends and I thought that we were cool, that we were invited to a party of some of the older kids in the high school. And I remember walking into this house with one of my good friends, person that opened the door said, “Hey, the party’s downstairs.” We walked down into the basement, we’re standing on the bottom step. We’re seeing everything that’s going on, and my friend looks at me and says something like, “Huh, I’m tired. You ready to go?” And we literally turned around and walked out of the basement. We see that here in this portion of the Book of Mormon that Aaron, unfortunately, he goes to a people that are harder because of the people they’ve associated with.

John Bytheway: 00:33:24 There’s a guy named Jim Rohn. He’s kind of like Stephen Covey, a business philosopher, and I’ve heard him say once that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. The fascinating thought, I’m still chewing on that. And he even quoted research, “I can predict your bank account.” All sorts of things, just because of the associations that you have. I just wanted to note that you read verse four, “Many of the Amalekites and the Amulonites were after the order of the Nehors.” There he is again, comes and goes in Alma chapter one; but that influence, speaking of bad friends, that influence. Alma 16, the Ammonihah wiped out in one day, but now there he is again. Wow.

Hank Smith: 00:34:08 What a great lesson there out of Alma 21, that these Lamanites, because they’re around or they hang around with these former Nephites, they’ve had a significant effect on them. You could cross-reference that, couldn’t you, to Mosiah 17, where King Noah is about to let Abinadi go? He is like, the, “I should not do this.” That’s a significant moment in Noah’s life. Can you imagine if Noah says, “You know what, I’m going to repent, turn it around,” and Noah and Abinadi go on missions, right? But no, it never happens because the priests, his friends, lifted up their voices against him and began to accuse him saying, “He has reviled the king.” Therefore, the king was stirred up in anger against him, Abinadi. It matters. It truly matters who you spend your time with, whether you’re an adult or a youth.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:35:04 It is. Those that you associate with impact who you become. Let me just go back to how President Monson finished this beautiful quote, “The friends you choose will either help or hinder your success.” And I truly believe that.

Hank Smith: 00:35:18 Yeah, think of the story of Naaman. Naaman is about to go home. He’s like, “I came all this way to hear this prophet and he’s told me to wash in the Jordan River. There’s much cleaner rivers where I came from, I’m going to go home.” And his friend stops him, says, “Maybe you ought to do it.” That changes everything.

John Bytheway: 00:35:40 I’m thinking of Elder Gary Stevenson’s story about this study abroad in Japan and being up there on the roof and somebody gets out marijuana and, “Oh, no, it’s okay. We’ll just pass it.” And somebody else, “I’m leaving,” and grab somebody and goes with it. Oh, to this day people thank John, was the guy’s name, who I actually met, who grabbed a friend and took them off there. But it’s such a cool story. Elder Robert D. Hales, best definition of a friend I have ever heard, “A friend is someone who makes it easier to live the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:36:14 Oh, it’s beautiful. Thank you.

John Bytheway: 00:36:17 Let’s jump back into chapter 20. I have heard people say contrast the mission approaches of Ammon and Aaron. Ammon says, “I will be thy servant. I could live here till I die.” Aaron goes in and first had to preach and they throw him in the slammer. But the verses that you start with, you’ve got to take that into account, that they were more hardened people. So I don’t like that necessarily because I think, yeah, but Aaron went to a different mission. He’s among these, “Oh, if Aaron, if he had more faith or if he used different words.” It says, “Hey, look, these guys were so hardened. In fact, they were after the order of the Nehors.”

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:36:56 My mission president, he goes to one of those mission president trainings that they have for the mission leaders in an area, and he comes back, I’m his assistant at that time, and I, “Hey, what happened?” And he starts laughing. Elder Scott was the Member of the Quorum of the Twelve that came and ran this mission president’s seminar, mini seminar. And he said, “Elder Scott recommended that we don’t let you missionaries in Europe write your friends in South America.” It’s that idea, very different mission experiences. You’re just among a different people. And Italians are incredible, they’re some of the most charitable loving and giving people. Not quite the same as my brother’s experiences in Mexico.

Hank Smith: 00:37:33 But it is interesting on that once Ammon and Aaron seem to have a talk, Aaron changes his approach.

John Bytheway: 00:37:40 And says, “Oh, we’ll be your servants.” Let’s see if it works here. Yeah, it’s true.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:37:44 You’re going to notice when I get to these teachings of Aaron, we’re not going to hit him super deep because he literally takes the mission plan of Ammon, and he teaches the king the exact same thing. I want to pick back up with Ammon and King Lamoni as they’re traveling to go and release Aaron and the others from prison. And you know, as they’re traveling along the way in verse seven and he said, or King Lamoni said unto Ammon, “Come, I will go with thee to the land of Middoni, and there I will plead with the king that he will cast thy brethren out of prison.” And in verse eight, it says, “And it came to pass that as Ammon and Lamoni were journeying thither, they met the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.”

  00:38:20 Lamoni and his father begin to have this interaction. The king of the Lamanites looks at Lamoni, he says, “Why did you miss the feast?” Lamoni begins to try to explain to him some of the incredible things that have been happening to him and in his kingdom. I was unconscious, I literally could not make it. As he begins to explain that, the king of the Lamanites, King Lamoni’s father, looks and he sees Ammon and we see in verse 10, and he said, “Whither art thou going with this Nephite, who is one of the children of a liar?” And it’s in this moment, Ammon steps into the story and he begins to converse with the king. I want to jump down to verse 17, it says, “But Ammon stood forth and said unto him: Behold, thou shall not slay thy son; nevertheless, it were better that he should fall than thee. For behold, he has repented of his sins. But if thou shouldst fall at this time, in thine anger, thy soul should not be saved.”

  00:39:11 “And again, it is expedient that thou shouldst forbear; for if thou shouldst slay thy son, he being an innocent man, his blood would cry from the ground to the Lord his God, for vengeance to come upon me; and perhaps thou wouldst lose thy soul.” And when Ammon had said these words unto him, he answered him saying, “I know that if I should slay my son that I should shed innocent blood, for it is thou who has sought to destroy him.” The king pulls out his sword, Ammon pulls out his sword in defense, and they begin to fight. We see in verse 20, “And he stretched forth his hand to slay Ammon, but Ammon withstood his blows and also smote his arm that he could not use it.” Again, Ammon goes back to those tactics, whether it’s the sword or whether it’s the actual arm, but the king could no longer fight.

  00:40:00 And in this moment when the king realizes that Ammon has all of the power, Ammon can do anything in this moment, the king begins to plead unto him. And I think it’s interesting in verse 23, what the king of the Lamanites offers to Ammon in this moment, it says, “Now the king, fearing that he should lose his life said, if that will spare me, I will grant unto thee whatsoever thou will ask, even to half of the kingdom.”

  00:40:25 I’ve often thought about if I were Ammon, what would I choose in that moment? He could take half of the kingdom of the Lamanites. But again, it’s in this moment that the goodness of Ammon shines forth. In verse 24, it says, “Now when Ammon saw that he had wrought upon the old king according to his desire, he said unto him: if thou will grant that my brethren be cast out of prison, and also that Lamoni may retain his kingdom, and that ye be not displeased with him; but grant that he may do according to his own desires in whatsoever thing he thinketh, then I will spare thee. Otherwise I will smite thee to the earth.”

  00:40:58 “Now when Ammon had said these words, the king began to rejoice because of his life.” And I love what it says here in verse 26, again, it reflects the goodness of Ammon and the impact that a good loving, wonderful human being can have on another. It says, “And when he saw that Ammon had no desire to destroy him, and when he saw the great love which he had for his son, Lamoni, he was astonished exceedingly and said: because this is all that thou hast desired, that I would release thy brethren, and suffer that my son, Lamoni, should retain his kingdom, behold, I will grant unto you that my son may retain his kingdom from this time and forever. I will govern him no more.”

  00:41:39 It’s that wonderful idea of what really changes Lamoni’s father, is Ammon’s love for Lamoni. I don’t think that Ammon wants to be the focus of the story. I really don’t. In every moment when Ammon is able to reflect on and talk about the greatness of their experience, he always turns to the goodness and wonderment of God. But it is the goodness of Ammon that often changes hearts. And in this moment, the king of the Lamanites allows Ammon to go and free his brothers from prison. And then he asks him to come and teach him because of the goodness of Ammon.

Hank Smith: 00:42:11 All three of us are almost products of President Hinckley. And I remember him saying, “Our kindness may be the most persuasive argument for that which we believe.” I remember that moment. I wrote it down. “Our kindness may be the most persuasive argument for that which we believe.”

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:42:32 I’m going to get the details wrong or there may be something that I forget. Personally, my family’s been impacted by the kindness of a believer. My grandpa wasn’t a member of the church when he married my grandma. Actually, my grandpa was pretty resistive to the church. My grandma tells stories of how the missionaries or how the home teachers would come over to the house and my grandpa would chase them away because he didn’t want to become a Latter-day Saint. But it was a bishop that was called, that I can’t even remember his name, but I can remember my grandma before she passed away talking about this incredible bishop who loved my grandfather. Loved him unconditionally, who really began to make significant changes in the life of my grandpa. My grandma told me one day that this bishop came over to the house and looked at my grandpa and said, “Hey, we need to talk about…”

  00:43:15 My dad wasn’t baptized at this point. He and his older brother weren’t baptized. And the bishop said, “Hey, I want to talk to you about baptizing your boys.” And my grandma can remember my grandpa and this bishop walking up and down the block for a significant amount of time. And finally my grandpa came into the home and said, “Okay, the boys can be baptized.” But it was this bishop that also came to my grandpa and he said, “Look, I know you don’t love the church, but you love your boys. So are you willing to serve as a scout leader in the church? And all you need to do is you need to take your sons and their friends camping and fishing and hunting and those other things.” And my grandpa was willing to do that. It was over the course of time of this incredible bishop loving my grandfather that brought my grandpa into the church, as well as the love of my grandma.

  00:43:56 But sometimes I look at it, as Latter-day Saints, as we talk about this idea of being great member missionaries. And sometimes we don’t know exactly what we can do. And there have been moments that I’ve felt similarly. I didn’t know exactly what I could do, but I’ve realized that I can love people. I can be a good neighbor. I can be a loving neighbor. I can serve my neighbors, not with the thought in mind that I’m going to help convert them to the gospel of Jesus Christ; but in those moments that they may not be receptive to the gospel of Jesus Christ, I can treat them like Christ would. And over the years our family’s been able to see some beautiful experiences where people have come into the church. It all started with just a friendship relationship.

Hank Smith: 00:44:34 You don’t see Ammon saying, “Well, I better be nice because I’m trying to get him to be converted to the church.” It’s just who he is.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:44:44 It is. It just exudes from him.

John Bytheway: 00:44:46 It’s like what King Benjamin said, you will not have mind to injure one another. He is not saying don’t have a mind to injure one another. He’s saying, when you’re born again, you will not have mind to injure one another. When you’re changed by the Atonement, all these things will come naturally. It’s not a formula, it’s who you are.

Hank Smith: 00:45:06 Interesting. Brian, I’ve never seen that, verse 19, where Lamoni’s father said, “It is you. You are trying to destroy him.” Isn’t that interesting that missionaries are often seen that way? You are trying to hurt my child. You’re trying to steal them away. You’re trying to make them a Mormon. You’re the problem. And then he’s like, “Wait, maybe not.”

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:45:28 Yeah. So when I worked out of the church office building, I had some pretty incredible experiences. One day I went to the mailbox and there was a letter from the office of the first presidency and I looked, but it was my 4-year-old daughter, my youngest daughter’s name. She was four years old at the time. From President Uchtdorf. I want those types of letters to come to my family, not some of these others.

Hank Smith: 00:45:48 Wow. She had just written to him?

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:45:50 I was in his office. We were just talking in between things. He gave a general conference talk where he talked about three sisters. He said, “Sad, Mad and Glad.” And he shares this story of these three sisters. And I’d mentioned to President Uchtdorf at that time that my four-year-old had taught his talk for family home evening, as a little four-year-old, and colored a picture. And he said, “I want that picture.” I said, “Okay.” So I brought it in. It was still hanging on our fridge and I just gave Elder Uchtdorf’s administrative assistant. I thought that was kind of the end of it. And then that’s why the letter came in.

Hank Smith: 00:46:21 How often were you chatting with apostles in between meetings?

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:46:26 Often enough that I had some incredible experiences, but not often-

John Bytheway: 00:46:29 Boy, I bet.

Hank Smith: 00:46:30 That sounds kind of fun.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:46:31 When Ammon has this moment where he overpowers the king, what is the king willing to give up in order for Ammon to spare his life in that moment?

Hank Smith: 00:46:39 Half of the kingdom? That’s verse 23.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:46:42 Half of the kingdom. I love now going to chapter 22, this is the moment that Ammon doesn’t go and teach the king of the Lamanites, but his brother Aaron does. And as he walks in, we begin to see a similar experience that played out within the life of King Lamoni. It’s fascinating and beautiful for me to see what the king is now willing to give up; not in order for his life to be spared, but in order to come to know God. You see, as Aaron goes and he begins to teach the king of the Lamanite people, he really does take the lesson plan of Ammon. I want you to look in verse seven.

  00:47:17 As Aaron begins teaching the king of the Lamanites in chapter 22, “And Aaron answered him and said unto him; believest thou there is a God?” Remember Ammon asked the exact same question to King Lamoni. He begins with this idea of God. And the king of the Lamanites said, “I know that the Amalekites say there is a God, and I have granted unto them that they should build sanctuaries, that they may assemble themselves together to worship him. And if thou sayest there is a God, behold I will believe.” And then in verse eight, “And now when Aaron heard this, his heart began to rejoice; and he said: behold, assuredly as thou livest, O king, there is a God. And the king said, is God that Great Spirit?” Again, it’s almost the exact same interchange or exchange that happens between King Lamoni and Ammon, that Aaron now has with Lamoni’s father.

  00:48:07 And in verse 10, and Aaron said, “Yea, he is the Great Spirit.” And he begins to then step into the important pillars of the plan of salvation; because like we previously discussed, they help us to know the nature of who God is. Verse 10, as Aaron begins to teach the king that God is the Creator of all things, both in heaven and earth. In verse 11, “And he said, Yea, I believe that the Great Spirit created all things and I desire that thou should tell me concerning all things, and I will believe thy words.”

  00:48:38 Aaron, as he begins to teach the king all things, he begins to build off that truth, that there is a God and that he is our Creator, that he is our Father. Then notice in verse 12, what does he begin to teach? After he is taught the creation, he then begins to teach the…

Hank Smith: 00:48:53 The Fall?

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:48:54 The Fall. Then you go into verse 13, and Aaron did expound unto him the scriptures from the creation of Adam, laying the fall before him and their carnal state. And after he teaches the doctrine of the creation and the fall; in verse 13, he then begins to teach of the…

Hank Smith: 00:49:11 The Atonement. The plan of redemption.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:49:14 Yep. And in verse 14, “And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself, but the sufferings and the death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance and so forth. And that he breaketh the bands of death and the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death shall be swallowed up in the hopes of glory. And Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.” And then we get this beautiful moment as the king begins to understand who God is and more importantly who he is in relation to the king, that he is God’s son. I love what the king is willing to offer up in verse 15, it says, “And it came to pass it that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: what shall I do that I may have this eternal life of which thou hast spoken?” As a reminder, he’s willing to give up half of the kingdom in order to save his life, in that moment when Ammon overpowers him.

  00:50:10 But as you look at the end of verse 15, look at what he’s willing to give up in order to have eternal life. He says, “Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess. Yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.” Then he continues and he says, “Not only am I willing to give up my kingdom, to come to know God, in order to receive the incredible blessings that my Heavenly Father has for me.” In verse 18, he begins to exercise faith and to plead his heart out to God. And he says in his prayer, “Oh God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God, and if there is a God and if thou art God, will thou make myself known unto me?” And then this beautiful line, “And I will give away all my sins to know thee.”

  00:50:59 As we go back to what we taught earlier in the podcast of what repentance truly is, repentance is coming to see who God truly is and who we are as his children. And that we’re willing to bring our life back in alignment with God in order to know him and to follow him. This is what this king is willing to do in this moment, this king in his desire to know God and to connect with God is willing to give away everything he has in his life that is stopping or inhibiting him from knowing God. I think in our own lives that often as we read that verse, and as we think of sins, obviously we think of the 10 Commandments and we think of the thou shalt nots, and it’s vital that we do that. But the invitation that I would give us is to think about what are some of those things in our lives that are stopping us from having a relationship with our Heavenly Father?

  00:51:51 What are those things that are stopping us from giving time to him? What are those things that are maybe getting in the way of, stopping us from spending time in his house or in spending time on our knees with him? We should think of those big commandments that are given to us and rightfully so. My invitation that I have is are there any other things in life that are stopping us from knowing God and following him? And are we willing to act in faith like the king and to give away those things so that we can know God, our loving Heavenly Father?

Hank Smith: 00:52:24 What a great cross-reference there, Alma 20:23, I’ll give you half my kingdom. I can’t give you the whole thing, right? He has some serious love, it sounds like, for his material things; his land, his power. The power of God, once he’s taught, I’ll give up everything. I’ll give up all that I possess. Doesn’t that seem like a theme for Mormon, who’s writing the story? To say the sword is powerful, but the word is even more powerful? Like you said, Brian, if we can put ourselves or those we’re teaching in this position where they feel the spirit of who they are by being taught the plan of redemption, we come to the point where we’re willing to say, “I’ll give up this or that or this so I can experience what you’re talking about.”

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:53:19 Over the course of my career as a Religious Educator, I think even as a parent, the things that I’ve taught my kids; how many times have I taught lessons about chastity? Or how many times have I taught lessons about appropriate entertainment? Or how many times have I taught lessons about?-

Hank Smith: 00:53:33 Honesty, yeah.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:53:35 … The way that we treat other people? Honesty or those other things. And I’m not saying those lessons aren’t important, but when I think for myself, in my own personal life, what causes me to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, what causes me to be true to covenant, it’s because of my relationship with God. This past semester in one of my classes, we were talking of some of these hard things, and one of my students raised their hand in a moment of courage and said, “How can you stay faithful? How can you stay faithful when it’s so hard at times?”

  00:54:08 I took a moment and I thought about it and I said, “I stay faithful because I love God and I know God loves me. And I’m willing to stay faithful in hard times and when he asks hard things of me, not because I necessarily love those hard things. Or not necessarily because I see why he’s asking me to do those things, but I continue to walk the covenant path because of God and I love my Heavenly Father.”

  00:54:33 One of the beautiful lessons that we learn in all of these chapters, again, I love the story of Ammon chopping off the arms. I loved that part of the story, I still do. But the power in these chapters come to me now as I see how people’s lives change as they truly come to know God, that he’s a very personal loving father, that he’s our Creator, that he created this plan because of his love for us. That as we exercise agency that may lead us away from him, that he still loves us and provides a way through the atonement of Jesus Christ for us to return to him. That his greatest work is to bring about our immortality and eternal life. That’s the type of loving Heavenly Father that I can place faith and trust in throughout my life.

Hank Smith: 00:55:13 That is wonderful. Brian, don’t you think one of the major takeaways from this lesson needs to be, teach the plan of salvation, teach those three pillars, Creation, Fall, Atonement? And tying back to the beginning of our lesson, in order to teach those, you have to know them. They search the scriptures diligently for what? Three things probably. Creation, Fall, Atonement. And out of those three, Latter-day Saints, I would say most don’t understand the Fall. Frequently speak of the Atonement and we go to the temple and we learn about Creation, but the Fall, that middle pillar is crucial, right? It’s a critical point for the other two. Both Lamoni and his father, they’re in act two. They now understand where they are in the plan. They automatically look for act three. Where’s my happy ending? Where can I get out of this? That’s the Atonement. Creation, Fall, Atonement. I bet if I went to my children and ask them, Creation, Fall, Atonement; I think the Fall would be the one they don’t understand. I don’t know if I teach that as a parent in an understandable way.

John Bytheway: 00:56:28 What was the President Benson’s statement? “Just as a man does not really desire food until he’s hungry, so he does not desire the salvation of Christ until he knows why he needs Christ.” And no one knows why he needs Christ until he understands the doctrine of the fall and its effect upon all mankind and no book in the world explains the fall as well as the Book Mormon. Alma 22:18. Is it wrong to have a top 10? This is one of my favorite verses. Hank, you’ve probably spoken at more standards nights than I have; but I have always used this because first of all, what Brian taught us so beautifully is our identity. I want to know God, this is life eternal, that they may know thee, the only true God. Here’s King Lamoni’s father praying, “Will thou make thyself known unto me?” Like that verse in John, this is life eternal, that I might know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

  00:57:26 And then that phrase and notice King Lamoni’s Father didn’t say, “And how bad can I be and still know thee?” That’s a mindset that we get even with the new For the Strength of Youth: A Guide to Making Choices, is it’s not minimums of behavior, it’s a doctrines of discipleship. It’s not how good do I have to be to know thee? Oh, King Lamoni’s father here is, “What do I do? I will give away all my sins to know thee.” You guys think it’s possible to be born again before you’ve even been baptized? Because he sounds like he’s willing to give it all away. The only thing we can really give to God is something he would never take. God doesn’t need half the kingdom, but here, King Lamoni’s father says, “I’ll give away all my sins.” I love what you’ve done, Brian. It will help me because I’ll understand who I am, my identity. Beautiful.

Hank Smith: 00:58:22 True doctrine understood changes, attitudes and behavior. That’s exactly what happens here. Brian, let’s say I’m a young parent and I’m listening to the podcast, or I’m a grandparent and I’m folding laundry, or I’m out mowing the lawn, or I’m on a bike ride. I need some practical takeaways. What do I do? I’ve loved what you’ve taught me. Now what do I do? Therefore, what?

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:58:50 That great question from President Packer. Therefore, what?

Hank Smith: 00:58:54 Yeah.

Dr. Brian Mead: 00:58:55 What are the most significant thoughts that come to mind? As a parent or as a grandparent, there are so many things that we have to do for our children and grandchildren. There are so many things that we want them to know, and there are so many things that we want them to understand, but I think one of the most important things that will help them to continually remember is their identity as a child of a very loving Heavenly Father. Every night as a parent, one of the things that I try to do is to go into my kids bedrooms and to sit with them and to try to talk with them, but one of the questions that I always ask is, “Have you said your prayers to your Heavenly Father at night? Have you talked to God?” That’s one of the most significant things that can happen is that we help to remind them of their identity of a very loving Heavenly Father.

  00:59:37 Another thought that’s important is that we remember the importance of learning by both study and faith. These Sons of Mosiah are incredible missionaries and we look to them as an example. It’s that idea of doing small and simple things consistently throughout my life that have had the greatest impact on my discipleship. It’s remembering the small and simple things of these simple acts of daily prayer. It’s these simple acts of reading scriptures. I know sometimes in the busyness of the day, I get down on my knees at night and I feel like I haven’t had time to do many of these things. But it’s trying to do these small and simple things consistently that lead to this incredible power in teaching the word of God.

  01:00:19 One last thought that I would add to that is remember the length of this mission. These Sons of Mosiah are gone for 14 years and I think as a parent or as a grandparent, we worry, we naturally worry, and I think it’s part of our role as parents to worry; but be patient in God’s timing, that God provides incredible things. As you look at the story, as you look at the conversion of these people, over the course of time, God has prepared incredible people to step into the Lamanites lives to bring this about.

  01:00:50 The Sons of Mosiah went through an incredible change. And what does God do? He not only inspires them or creates this desire to teach the Nephites, they have this desire to go to the Lamanites, and so they begin this mission experience. So we’ve talked about this incredible woman named Abish, who the Lord has prepared years before that in this moment, she’s prepared to help testify of the power of God that’s happening. Be patient. Be willing to trust in God’s timing. Be willing to trust that God is preparing other people in order to help you in this parenting and grand-parenting role, and then trust in the timing of God.

Hank Smith: 01:01:28 That’s wonderful.

John Bytheway: 01:01:28 He’s got the long view.

Hank Smith: 01:01:30 Yeah. Joseph Smith said, “The Lord has made ample provision for people’s redemption.” He’s not worried. John, we both know there are parents and grandparents and sisters and brothers who are so concerned. How is this child, friend, companion, even parent, how are they going to make it? It’s never going to happen. Everyone said that about the Lamanites. Why are you even trying? It is never going to happen. Yet it does. So like Brian said, we trust, we’re patient. It’s a long game. Brian, thank you for spending your time with us today.

Dr. Brian Mead: 01:02:13 Any time. Well, let’s space it out a little bit, but let me know what I can do.

Hank Smith: 01:02:19 We’ve been richly blessed, and this is Brian’s first time on our podcast. We’d love to let him know where you’re listening from, so if you have access to YouTube, come onto YouTube and tell Dr. Mead, “Hey, I’m listening from this place.” It doesn’t have to be some faraway grand place. It can be, where’s it, Brian? Mountain Green, Utah.

Dr. Brian Mead: 01:02:42 It’ll be nice to know if there’s somebody more than just my parents listening to this.

Hank Smith: 01:02:46 In Mountain Green.

Dr. Brian Mead: 01:02:47 In Mountain Green.

Hank Smith: 01:02:48 That’s awesome. With that, we’d like to thank Dr. Brian Mead for being with us today. It has been a blessing for both John and I, and I know for everyone listening. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen; our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen; and every episode we honor our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We have more of the Book of Alma coming up on followHIM.

  01:03:14 Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website, FollowHim.co. That’s FollowHim.co. On our website, you’ll also find our two free books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else.

  01:03:48 If you’d like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast; that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew: David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 01:04:09 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him, follow him.