John Bytheway:               00:00:01             Welcome to part two with Sister Carol Costley on the Family Proclamation. Several times we’ve talked about the real and the ideal. I hope people don’t read this and use it as a club to beat themselves with like, my family’s not perfect. This is showing us an ideal and look at that phrase that you mentioned as they progress toward perfection. It gives us an ideal, an aspiration, a place to go that’s founded in truth. Boy, as you have so beautifully explained, Carol, your interesting background, this is inspiring to you and it’s telling us of the possibility in the future, possibility that’s grounded in truth through our, through the Savior. Please, if you’re reading this and thinking, what did Elder Rasband say, this doesn’t fit for me. This is truth for all of us. It gives us an aspiration, a place for our future to go, especially the young people that are listening that are going, I don’t know what my future family’s gonna be like. This gives me the principles I need to plan and set goals.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:11             I think you’re right on both of you. I don’t know if you’ve ever gone here, but if you go to your Gospel Library app, just scroll down a little bit. For me it’s the third column on the right hand side towards the bottom. There’s a section called Life Help, and if you click on that, there’s abuse, addiction, adoption, and it’s in alphabetical order. You can come down to the bottom and there’s transgender and a lot of questions about how does the church feel about this or see this are answered here. I was reading through this to prepare for today. There’s a lot to read, but I wanted to read this paragraph. One of the questions it’s asked is if I identify as transgender, do I belong as a member of the church? Yes, church members need you and want you. If you identify yourself as transgender, we know you face complex challenges. You are deserving of Christlike love just as much of any of God’s children and you should be treated with sensitivity, kindness, and compassion. It says, not everyone around you will be perfect in expressing that love and compassion and sensitivity. I think we could all decide to be better. I know of a person who’s been rejected entirely by their family, kicked out of their house for being transgender, cut off all communication with that child. I can’t think of our heavenly Father being or the Savior being pleased with that.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:02:54             Because the family is the source of healing. That’s where we heal and it doesn’t bode well for that person because then they’re gonna go often and find other resources that may not be as helpful in connecting them with Jesus Christ. You can be transgender, gay, and be connected to Christ. I feel like as a family, when we cut people off, we’re doing a great disservice to them. Kind of snuffing out a light that could really provide some direction, some love, some support so that whatever it is that they’re experiencing, that they can get the comfort that they need. I am not a fan of tough love. I’m not a fan of cutting people off because I really feel like if this unit is by divine design, then everybody should have access to a loving and supportive unit to where they can get the comfort and healing that they need. I’m so disappointed when I hear these stories because one of the number one things that they say is that when a person has family support, their success in overcoming, it could be depression, it could be addiction, it could be a myriad of issues. Having that family support, that foundational unit to help them is key.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:36             Yeah. There’s another section under this same part of the gospel library that’s called Supporting Others, and there’s just a simple statement. There’s a lot there, but one simple statement that I hope anybody listening who has decided to go the wrong direction and cut off a family member, it says, if you overreact, get angry or say things you regret, don’t be discouraged. This may be hard for you as well. This is one moment in a lifetime of conversations you will have with your loved one. If you feel you should apologize for your actions, do it.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:05:14             That apology can begin the process for repair. I think apologies are great, but I think a critical piece that we miss is the repair of the relationship that’s damaged or broken. That’s where the work really needs to take place and in a family that’s where the repair can happen is working on that relationship and taking commitments and saying, okay, I did this. I am really sorry. I’m gonna do something different. Then commit to what you can do to change or improve that relationship. Do you remember that family that I prayed to have at 40? I couldn’t get pregnant. That was a big disappointment. I felt inspired to adopt, so I talked to my husband about it. He was a little nervous about how he would feel, if he could bond with a child that was born into another family, and I remember we went and visited a friend.

                                           00:06:12             They had just adopted a baby girl. My husband held her. I could tell that he had fallen in love with this baby. When we left he said, I can do it. We adopted two girls and added them to three boys that were my husbands. I’m in a second marriage for my husband. This is my first marriage, so we had these two girls and they were wonderful. My oldest was a little fireball, a very independent thinker, kind of did her own thing, marched her own tune. Well, by the time she turned about 10, we started having some problems with her. She was a struggle. In after sharing that she was depressed, really struggled in school in every situation, and it got to the point where our relationship became very adversarial and it was heartbreaking to me ’cause we were so close when she was little, it was at the time when there was a lot of arguing and yelling back and forth and her not respecting us as parents, leaving and going with friends and not coming back and I get a phone call from Salt Lake wanting me to come down for an interview and I thought, what would they be wanting with me coming down to Salt Lake?

                                           00:07:35             I remember going in and sitting down with my husband. At first I thought it was for him. Then when I got there it was clear that it was for me. I met with Elder Gong and he said, are you prepared to accept a call today? I had no clue about what that call was, but when they extended the call to me, I remember thinking, young women, people in my ward will really laugh because right now my home is a disaster. And I said, well, I have a daughter, and I said her name and he says, oh, we know all about your daughter. And I thought, okay, well, I guess yes.

Hank Smith:                      00:08:15              Yeah.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:08:15             It really gave me a peace of mind because I felt like heavenly Father was saying, I know you’re doing the best that you can. I remember accepting the call to serve on the General Young Women’s Advisory Council. I thought, people are not gonna take me seriously if they know about my child who just stormed out of young women and cursed out everybody in the building. I was shocked that I would get this assignment. I went home and I told my girls what call had been extended to me. Believe it or not, they were both excited. It was the call, I believe, and the association with the women that changed the trajectory of my older daughter’s life. This past Saturday we were in the temple with her. I am telling you that heavenly Father answers prayers. As a mother who begged and pleaded. I’m telling you the times that I spent in my closet on the floor crying because of a reaction that I made or a thing that I said that was mean and begging for forgiveness and asking to learn a different way of managing my daughter.

                                           00:09:35             We have funny stories, we have sad stories. The call changed my life and my husband said to me one day, he said, what if you had not accepted the calling because of all that was going on in our home because you feared the judgment of others. I really did fear the judgment of others. Something so sweet was a woman when I was in St. George came up to me and she said, I have just been put in a stake young women’s president and I have a son. I said, you don’t need to say much more. I have a daughter and we commiserated over some of the struggles that we had had with our children and I just said that you are the right person because you can understand some of those youth who are struggling. To think that things have to be perfect or that we have to be perfect to serve or that we have to be perfect to have a testimony, it is not true.

                                           00:10:35             We can have testimonies about lots of different things and together they’ll build a very strong testimony. I really feel like watching my daughter change over the years is incredible. She’s 22 now. She’s the mother of two. She’s married to a wonderful guy. Their plan is to get sealed in a few months. I had no idea that this would be my story. Now this is my story and I know that it sounds ideal and perfect for a parent who is struggling and their child is not coming around. It doesn’t matter when they come around, it’s that these seeds are planted and I had no idea that I was planting seeds. I had no comprehension whatsoever that I was even making a difference in this child’s life, and I realized I was planting a seed when we were in the conference center. She was so happy to tell everybody that my mom is going to be sitting on the stand at the women’s meeting. That’s my mom. She had never shown that she was proud or that she had a love for me. One of her little friends from school came up to her and she said, Hannah, what are you doing here? And she said, my mom is a member of the General Young Women’s Advisory Council, and she said to the little girl, why are you here? And the little girl looked at her and this had been a friend that had come over to our home to play. She goes, my grandfather’s the prophet.

Hank Smith:                      00:12:18             Okay.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:12:18             We laugh about that all the time, but Hannah took such great pride in the fact that I was there and I think that I watched her change because she was proud of my service and for what I was doing. She met some incredible sisters who loved on her, who cared about her and who showed support. It is about this heavenly family that we’re talking about in the Proclamation on the Family, that people in ward, people that we serve with matter and can impact and make this document come to life and have meaning for them. Now watching her, starting her family, this document is important to her as she mothers, as she serves with her husband in this marriage. It’s just beautiful to see the respect and the love that they have for each other is so sweet to my soul, it is a balm for my soul that was really, really harrowed and wrecked for about four years, four years of watching the turmoil of this child.

                                           00:13:30             I am appreciative to all the people, her counselors, all the people that jumped in and helped with her. It has changed the view of her relationship. I quit my job to stay home with my kids. It was a really good job too. I remember when I quit that job and wanted to stay home, someone came up to me and said, I can’t believe you quit your job. You took up a space in graduate school that could have been given to someone else. If we would’ve known that you weren’t going to work in the profession. I thought, wow. And that was someone that I had gone to school with that really surprised me at the time that they had that feeling. I needed to be home for these two girls. I was planting seeds. For anyone out there that thinks that they’re not planting the seeds of the gospel and a child is not listening, it is not true.

                                           00:14:26             I am quite surprised at some of the things that she tells me about the gospel, about our Book of Mormon readings when she was over there rolling her eyes and making noise and not reading properly and I would just get so frustrated. Yet there were things that stuck. She was involved, she was listening. The family is ordained of God. This sacred union of a marriage or the responsibility of a mother, even if she is by herself, it’s sacred. They will have the support of Heavenly Father. I love that Elder Oaks talked about being raised by a single mom and to look at him and to know what he was able to accomplish in that situation. It is sweet to me to know that just because something is not ideal, it doesn’t mean that it’s not going to work or that we can’t implement some of those teachings and recommendations of family scripture, prayer, going to the temple, all of those things, they can still help even if we are a parent by ourselves.

John Bytheway:               00:15:35             Hank, you remember our discussion of Section 137 and 138 about the spirit world and just this wonderful idea and impression that God’s in this. He has the long game in mind. Our timing, Carol you suffered for four years. The Lord knew what he was doing. I think it was on a wonderful podcast called followHIM where I heard a guest quote a scripture and I just went, wow, how have I never seen that? Like four years ago Hank. You cannot behold for the present time with your natural eyes, the design of your God concerning those things which shall come hereafter. He’s got you. It might not be in our sequence or the time we want. We can trust a God who loves his children as this is teaching us who is our Father and who has the long game in mind, which I just think is a very comforting thought.

Hank Smith:                      00:16:35             Yeah, I have a story that I thought was a couple of years old. Turns out it’s 12 years old. Why do years go by so fast? This is President Eyring. Both of you’ll remember this. Years ago a friend of mine spoke of his grandmother. She had lived a full life, always faithful to the Lord and to His church. Yet one of her grandsons chose a life of crime. He was finally sentenced to prison. My friend recalled that his grandmother, as she drove along a highway to visit her grandson in prison, had tears in her eyes as she prayed with anguish. I’ve tried to live a good life. Why? Why do I have this tragedy of a grandson who seems to have destroyed his life? The answer came to her mind in these words, I gave him to you because I knew you could and would love him no matter what he did.

                                           00:17:35             President Eyring says there’s a wonderful lesson for us all. The way for loving parents and grandparents and all of God’s servants will not be easy in a decaying world. We cannot force God’s children to choose the way to happiness. Heavenly Father and his beloved Son love all of God’s children no matter what they choose to do or what they become. He says, we cannot force the Holy Ghost on others, but we can let them see it in our lives. We can always take courage from the assurance that we will, that we all once felt the joy of being together as a member of a beloved family of our Heavenly Father. With God’s help, we can all feel that hope and that joy again. I knew you would love him no matter what he did.

John Bytheway:               00:18:25             And I love what Carol said about a daughter that didn’t seem to be listening to scripture study. Yeah, this is an old story. Alma’s just been knocked flat by an angel who says arise and then he says, if you wanna be destroyed, keep doing what you’re doing, he falls down again. What does Alma say? Then I remember my father to have taught concerning a Son of God who could forgive sins and I cried within my soul. Oh Jesus thou son of God have mercy on me. And it came back, I think of Aminadab in prison, right, who had once belonged to the church but had dissented from among them. There’s this dark cloud in the prison. All the prisoners are like, what are we supposed to do? And Aminadab who somewhere back there he remembered, oh, cry unto the voice until you shall have faith in Christ and repent. First principles, boom. Aminadab had it the whole time. Even though probably someone who’s introduced as someone who was in the church who had dissented, it was in there. I love those kind of stories to give us hope.

Hank Smith:                      00:19:36             One more, one more I think you guys will remember this one too. This is Elder Bednar. He said, when our sons were growing up, our family did what you have done.

John Bytheway:               00:19:45             He’s breathing my air.

Hank Smith:                      00:19:46             Yeah, that’s it. Sometimes Sister Bednar and I wondered if our efforts to do these spiritual essential things were worthwhile. Now and then verses of scripture were read amid outbursts such as he’s touching me. Make him stop looking at me. Mom he’s breathing my air. Sincere prayers occasionally were interrupted with giggling and poking. Family Home Evening lessons did not always produce high levels of edification. At times, Sister Bednar and I were exasperated because the righteous habits we worked so hard to foster did not seem to yield immediately the spiritual results we wanted and expected. He goes on to talk about it takes time. He says, results like that do not occur each time we study or pray or learn together. It’s the consistency of our intent. And those were long years sounds like Carol.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:20:42             It’s really hard because they talk about the consistency, but man, when you’ve tried and you’ve tried and it’s just not working, there is a temptation to give up. There is a temptation to give up on scripture reading ’cause you get the same old attitude every single time and it’s just like why bother? But we’re told right there that we bother. We keep with that consistency and we’ll see the fruits of our labors. In the temple I just sat next to her and just held her hand and I thought, we’re here. We made it. And she had a great experience. I think that that consistency and trusting in heavenly Father in Jesus Christ that they’ve got our backs, their plan supersedes any plan that we could have ever thought of for ourselves. This Saturday that plan did supersede what I had even hoped for, so it was a sweet, sweet day.

Hank Smith:                      00:21:37             John frequently reminds our listeners that this is His work and His glory. His glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And what does he say, John? Is it 2 Nephi?

John Bytheway:               00:21:49             I am able to do my work. Yeah. 2 Nephi 27. Yeah, it’s not like,

                                           00:21:53             I just need you to be willing. Right?

                                           00:21:55             Why can’t you guys do my work for me? He doesn’t say that. He said, look, I got this. This is my job and I’m able to do my job. Be available. Do the best you can, but I got this.

Hank Smith:                      00:22:07             Joseph Smith said he has made ample provision for everyone’s redemption. He’s not counting on us.

John Bytheway:               00:22:14             He’s mighty to save. Not, he’s somewhat average at saving. Yeah. On a good day. Nope. He’s mighty to save.

Hank Smith:                      00:22:22             I’m pretty good at this.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:22:24             My husband reminds me that the sacrament prayer emphasizes willingness. He always inserts that word willingness in many parts of that sacrament prayer to help us understand that heavenly Father just wants someone who is willing. You don’t have to be good at something, you just need to be willing to learn or just willing to take the first step into the darkness. That has really hit me whenever he has mentioned that just the act of being willing.

Hank Smith:                      00:22:57             Carol, can we keep going? What’s next up on the proclamation?

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:23:01             John, could you read where we left off?

John Bytheway:               00:23:04             I numbered mine. So this is like paragraph six that starts with these words. Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. Children are an heritage of the Lord. From Psalm 127:3. Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God and be law abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives, mothers and fathers will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:23:47             It talks about our obligations to teach and to be accountable for the protection and the physical and spiritual needs of our children. And I know as a social worker I see a lot of situations where some of those physical needs are not met, let alone even moving into the spiritual. When we teach our children to love and to serve one another, it really does go far in helping them to create relationships with others where they love and they serve. That was the one thing that I really enjoyed about my older daughter was that she loved other people. She would go up and talk to anyone. She would reach out. I think that we have an obligation to teach, to live in a manner that can help our children develop attributes of Jesus Christ. Husbands and wives, mothers and fathers will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

                                           00:24:49             I remember in rearing my children, I had to recognize that there is a season for certain things to happen. Sometimes I was really hard on myself. It wasn’t the season, it wasn’t the time for me to be doing what I thought I ought to be doing and that God was quite satisfied with where I was at. Just being able to understand that when we are trying to care for the spiritual needs of our children and we’re praying over them daily. In Mosiah 27:14, we read about the power of a parent. It says, and again the angel said, behold the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is the Father, for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of truth. Therefore, for this purpose, have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith. When we as parents exercise faith and trust in heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, we do get answers to our prayers, in his timetable. Not necessarily in ours.

Hank Smith:                      00:26:12             Yeah, that angel’s funny. I don’t even want to be here, but I’m only here ’cause of your dad and his friends.

John Bytheway:               00:26:19             Can you dispute the power of God? Do you not behold me standing here before you? Can you feel the earth shaking under your feet there Buster? You gonna go out and destroy the church anymore tough guy? Okay. Hank as you know, we got an email from a wonderful sister who talked about her son who had left the church, left the family, and suddenly showed up at a siblings farewell. Do you remember this Hank? And texted that he was nearby, came in the chapel. He didn’t look great, she said, well, she said he looked terrible. His hair was scraggly, his jeans were messed up and she said, touches me. A young men’s leader came running across the back of the chapel and embraced this kid. Everyone greeting him as he came up and sat there, the son or daughter, I can’t remember who was having their farewell texted and said, are you watching this? You know?

                                           00:27:17             And this mom said, look at what that angel said, the prayers of many people. She said, people would call and say, is there anything I could do? And she would say, yeah, pray. Pray for my son or my daughter, whatever the case may be. In the scripture, that’s exactly what you just said, Carol, the angel said because of the prayers, go back to Mosiah 27:14. Behold the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people and also the prayers of his servant Alma, who is thy father, for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to a knowledge of the truth. The prayers of many people and thy father. This is a favorite verse of mine because I love specifically what the angel said, that they mightest be brought to a knowledge of the truth. It was that, Heavenly Father, I don’t know how you’re gonna do this, but will you help my loved one come to the knowledge of the truth?

                                           00:28:12             It might be through a tough road. You have a better idea of how to do that than I do. Help them come to a knowledge of the truth and in this case an angel shows up. I don’t know if there’s an order form in Mosiah 27 for people to fill out for how they would like it, but I love that he left that to the Lord. Not to specifically come back to church but come to a knowledge of the truth, however the Lord wants to do that. That’s a fascinating topic and an element of trust. This is heavenly Father’s child as we’ve just been reading. He knows them too. He will have a plan to bring them to a knowledge of the truth.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:28:52             And I think that how he brings them and what knowledge they’re going to gain is something that we just need to be satisfied with. Because there’s timing and everything ’cause a lot of times we think, well, it’s fine that that happened, but he really needed to do X, Y, and Z and I think I found myself as a mother sometimes doing that. My daughter, I don’t think that she missed church very much. She would come. Maybe she wouldn’t stay. I remember that one of her young women peers was trying to talk to her in the hallway and just trying to motivate her to participate and come back. It’s been sweet to hear some of the people come forward and share some of the stories and some of the influence that they have had and some of the time they took with my daughter. This is the beauty of the family of our heavenly family, is that there are people that will step up when we have lost patience, when we feel worn out, when we feel like we’ve not been able to make it work. I have just been so appreciative of those who have stepped up in my ward family and my friends that have taken the reigns and they’ve filled in where we cannot.

John Bytheway:               00:30:14             And it’s almost as if heavenly Father put them there to help answer your prayers.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:30:21             I had to give space for that because I didn’t always. Something that we do need to highlight though is successful marriages and family are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work and wholesome recreation. I wanna emphasize the work because honestly, when I got married and started my family, I really didn’t understand the work part of it. It’s important for us to recognize that there is going to be work. I mean, when Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden, they were told specifically that there would be some work. I didn’t realize that this would apply within my home, within my family, within my relationships.

                                           00:31:13             Just that the work would be perpetuated in every single relationship or situation that I was in, that we would need to do the work, that it would need to be supported with faith and prayer and repentance. That is one thing that I really struggled with. I didn’t understand or cherish the gift of repentance like it says in that young women’s theme. I into my adulthood thought that if I had to repent, it was not a good thing. It was in my calling actually, that I really came to know and understand that if I wasn’t repenting, that wasn’t a good thing. That was an aha moment for me, that it was okay to repent and to wanna change and make things right with God because that was the only way that I was gonna get back to him.

Hank Smith:                      00:32:12             We’ve said this many times, John, but we celebrate faith, we celebrate baptism, we celebrate someone getting the gift of the Holy Ghost and for some reason repentance out of the four gets a bad rap.

John Bytheway:               00:32:29             We talked about this before too, the the Bible Dictionary definition of repentance. Maybe you showed me this Hank, a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world. It’s easy to think of repentance as an event instead of as an ongoing daily process, an ongoing fresh view. The Lord working in us, Jesus working in us to change us and change our hearts and I want that to be a process, not just, oh, I knelt down and I said, Hey, sorry about that, therefore I repented. This is an ongoing work in progress and that way it becomes exciting that I can grow and repent.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:33:10             Do you think that if our fellow brothers and sisters really supported the whole idea of repentance as well? Because I know a lot of times there are those that if somebody has a problem that is visible to the world like getting pregnant or going to prison, it’s a visible sin is what I always say. That a lot of times you have a tendency to back away instead of embrace and support and to show love. And I just wish as members, I include myself in that process, that we be more sensitive and be more willing to love, show love and support even when a situation is awkward or uncomfortable sometimes having the confidence to be there, not have to say much of anything, just to be there to be a support while this person is going through this anguish.

Hank Smith:                      00:34:13             Now that’s straight out of Peacemakers Needed. President Nelson. If there is anything virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy that we can say about another person whether to his face or behind her back, that should be our standard of communication. If a couple in your ward gets divorced or a young missionary returns home early or a teenager doubts his testimony, or all of those others that you just gave us, Carol, back to President Nelson, they do not need your judgment. They need to experience the pure love of Jesus Christ reflected in your words and actions. We can make it so much easier for people to change and repent.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:35:02             As we go through this process we can think about how can we make it easier for people by just adjusting our attitude about the repentance process and about sin. Going back to what President Kimball said, having that view of it so that we can help support people when they’re going through that repentance process, avoiding the need to whisper and chat.

John Bytheway:               00:35:29             Jesus had such a way with just one sentence. I mean that’s why it’s so fun to read the New Testament ’cause Jesus would just say these mic drop moments. He that is without sin let him first cast a stone at her. Boy, you know? And I think that’s one way I need forgiveness. I cherish repentance. How can I withhold that from someone else when I know I need it?

Hank Smith:                      00:35:56             Yeah. Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you. Right?

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:36:02             Or more loudly.

Hank Smith:                      00:36:04             Yeah, more publicly maybe.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:36:06             Publicly. Yeah. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:36:10             It’s interesting how we have to have this same message over and over and over. It keeps coming. It’s almost like we’re not learning it entirely. You talked about work earlier, Carol. That’s not something my children love. That work is important.

John Bytheway:               00:36:31             Dad, can you give us some jobs today?

Hank Smith:                      00:36:34             Yeah. Please. Please. Such a blessing.

John Bytheway:               00:36:35             Can we have some more chores?

Hank Smith:                      00:36:38             I wrote a book on happiness that sold dozens of copies mostly to John and my sister. One thing I learned is that work is key to a happy life, that depriving children of work is not a blessing. One of the stories I tell in the book is my son Mason, he’s out on his mission right now and he is such a kind gentle heart. We used to incubate chickens, so we’d put the eggs in the incubator and 28 days later you can hear the little chirps from the inside. Those little chicks are just struggling to get out of those shells and their little chirp sounds like they just are pleading for help. And Mason, as a little boy, he would go over and he’d wanna lift up the incubator lid and just help ’em out a little bit. And I’d tell him, he’d go over there, I’d say, don’t do it.

                                           00:37:34             And he’d, why not? And I’d say, don’t do it. Don’t do it. And he’d say, you’re mean. That’s what he said to me. You’re mean, why don’t you wanna help them? I had to explain to him that that process of work that they go through is making them strong. And if they are strong, they’ll be able to live. If we actually help them out of their shells, we’re actually gonna end up hurting them. And it took a long time for him to comprehend that taking away someone’s struggle is actually not helpful at times. I bet you’ve seen that as a counselor.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:38:13             Absolutely. That one gentleman that I told you about, he’s now a father and he has a teenage daughter. He was struggling and doubting his ability to recover. He didn’t wanna go into inpatient, he didn’t wanna do the work. And I remember talking to him and saying, if you are not making it in an outpatient setting and you’re still having struggles, then we need to kind of re-look at inpatient. No, I can’t do that. I can’t do that. He finally decided to go and go to an inpatient setting. I haven’t heard back from him as yet, but I’m hopeful that this is the stay that he needed to get him out of the circumstances that he was in so he could clear his head. I think that once he realized I’m not gonna be able to be with my daughter unless I do the work, she was an age now where she was asking a lot of questions about what’s going on? What are you doing? Why are you not doing this? Why am I not important? I think that he realized, hey, I need to put the work in. Sometimes just deciding on the work that we need to do can be a challenge. When working with couples or individuals I find that it’s the work that’s sometimes offputting and whether or not they value the work as much as they value the relationship.

Hank Smith:                      00:39:40             John’s story always makes me laugh. The day before he’s going to the MTC, you’d think, hey, we’re going to the MTC, let’s have a celebration. Let’s have our friends over. Let’s take you to dinner. Not John Bytheway’s dad. John Bytheway’s dad had him loading manure. Right John? Did I get that right?

John Bytheway:               00:40:04             Yeah, absolutely right. As Jack is my witness, he’s up in the spirit world right now on a mission. He had me hauling manure up the front lawn in a wheelbarrow. I can’t wait to get to the MTC and get some rest.

Hank Smith:                      00:40:20             He saw that, right? He saw the value.

John Bytheway:               00:40:23             So grateful for that work ethic my dad had. And then you’re right Hank, thanks for remembering that. That makes me laugh, but that’s what I was doing the day before. Hey, would you go up to Kmart and buy this manure and take it in the backyard? Sure Dad.

Hank Smith:                      00:40:39             Sure Dad, you know I’m leaving tomorrow for a couple, for a little while.

John Bytheway:               00:40:44             Perhaps you’ve heard I’m off to the Philippines. Anyway.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:40:49             Perhaps that work was what you needed to get you started.

John Bytheway:               00:40:53             Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:40:54             Yeah. Carol, we’re getting close to the end here. What else do you want us to look at in the proclamation?

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:41:00             Two things. The idea that heavenly Father recognizes that we are not going to be in ideal situations. That was never the plan in the first place, I don’t think, for us to be in ideal situations. He says in these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. And I like that equal partners. We might have different duties, but we’re equal partners. Those duties can be switched around depending upon the makeup of your family, makeup of the education of the parents in the family. He says disability, death or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaption. He’s giving us permission or understanding for those adaptions to occur if we don’t have an ideal structure. That’s important. Also calls upon extended families should lend support when needed. I know that that young man that I told you about earlier on, whose grandmother was an integral part of helping him. That’s what’s important is letting us know that if the parents can’t do it, then there are other people that can do it. Always ending with that warning of what could happen if we as parents use our agency to not do the right thing, where we violate covenants of chastity or if we abuse our spouse or offspring, or if we fail to fulfill family responsibilities. The impact of that choice will devastate a family.

Hank Smith:                      00:42:49             Yeah. For generations.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:42:53             For generations it can create extreme insecurity. My girlfriend, one of my dearest and closest friends was married for 28 years. There was infidelity and the impact on her family was significant. I remember her having to rely on the Savior. Her testimony of His support and help was so powerful to me. Not a nasty word came out of her mouth about her spouse. I was in awe ’cause I could have said a few things because I was so disappointed. I followed her lead. She was a great example to me. I just followed her lead. To those children she reflected on the good times and on the positive things that had happened in their union, and I was thinking about the union with my husband as a second spouse. It actually turned into a situation for us where when we would have family parties, his ex-spouse would come and participate in those family parties with us.

                                           00:44:11             We were able to develop a great friendship and the grandchildren were able to have both the families there. It was just a really sweet experience. It was difficult initially because I just wasn’t quite secure in the relationship. It was new. It was a beginning. It turned out to be a great blessing for us. She was always so sweet and so kind, would babysit our girls. We truly became a family and we could incorporate her and her husband. It was just a good experience for the grandchildren and the children to have that. I am grateful that she feels comfortable coming to our home and spending time with us and so I think that there is a provision for us to make adjustments when it is not the ideal and I love that that is spoken here, but I also love the warning that can come from when things get adversarial.

                                           00:45:20             What my friend has tried to do now that she is remarried, she just got remarried a few months ago and it’s been sweet to see her new partner be a support and a strength to her enough that she was able to go to a joint activity where her ex-spouse was going to be there after I think 10 years, I don’t think she had seen him and was able to see him with the woman who is now his wife and for her to say, I am going to move forward with this because I have the support of this new spouse in my life. That unit that heavenly Father talks about whether it’s ideal or not, when you have the support of that family member, it can really serve to strengthen and support and to start rebuilding a relationship with the Savior and to strengthen that. That is what is most important. To have a situation where you can continue that relationship with the Savior and have that support and it’s been so sweet to see her have this back in her life to where she can go to the temple and be with her partner and start fresh again. It’s just sweet. Those warnings are real. The effects are impactful and can change the lives of children, can cause them to doubt their faith, can cause them to step away. It’s really critical that we use our agency wisely.

Hank Smith:                      00:46:55             Yeah. Elder Holland has said before that the price to be paid for our choices sometimes gets paid by our children and our grandchildren in far more expensive ways than we ever intended them to be. I’m sure you both shed a tear, I did, when President Oaks talked about his grandfather, this recent general conference, seven years old. 7-year-old boy on a farm in Payson, Utah. He said, I will never forget the promise of my maternal grandfather Harris, we’re living on his farm near Payson, Utah. He gave me the tragic news, this little 7-year-old that my father had died in faraway Denver, Colorado. I ran into the bedroom and knelt beside the bed crying my heart out. Grandpa followed me and went to his knees beside me and said, I will be your father. That tender promise is a powerful example of what grandparents can do to fill in the gaps when families lose or are missing a member. So we have a President of the Church right now who knows what it looks like to adapt to different situations.

John Bytheway:               00:48:17             When President Dallin H. Oaks was President Dallin H. Oaks of Brigham Young University, he gave a talk in about 1975, I think he talked about his father dying before he was ever able to repay his medical school debt. He said, I went through a period of school he said, where I could not do math. I was, his words, I was the dumbest boy in the room and I remember an occasion where others threw rocks at me and called me stupid. To think that church leaders have perfect families or perfect lives, that everything works out perfectly. No, we all go through things.

Hank Smith:                      00:49:02             Imagine President Oaks. I’m the dumbest kid in the room.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:49:06             Yeah.

John Bytheway:               00:49:07             I don’t think so.

Hank Smith:                      00:49:08             Yeah, I don’t think so.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:49:11             Well, it just speaks to the fact that we don’t know the work heavenly Father can do and to see the presidents of the church and to hear and know some of the challenges and struggles that they’ve gone through is truly a blessing. I’ll never forget when President Holland talked about his depression, how life-changing it was for many of my clients that I see who are members of the church, that felt like they were finally seen. To hear subsequent talks about mental health has been a great blessing to a lot of the folks that I’ve worked with. It’s really nice to hear some of the challenges that our general leaders do experience because it allows us to see ourselves and to see the potential that we could have to still continue in a relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ despite the roadblocks or the little excursions off this way that we didn’t think that we would ever be at. I love that our general leaders share moments in their lives.

Hank Smith:                      00:50:24             Yeah. Before we wrap up, Carol, I wanted to do a quick FYI, if anyone listening wants to know more about the history of the proclamation, the Y Religion podcast that I’m a part of and part of the religion faculty at BYU did two episodes on history of the proclamation. One is episode 121 with Dr. Michael Goodman, where he, some people might say, oh, this was written by a bunch of lawyers. I’ve heard that criticism of the proclamation and Brother Goodman goes through that history in a really beautiful, beautiful, very particular way. It’s very detailed and also there’s another criticism of the proclamation that women were not involved in it’s formation. Well, Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner, who’s also been on our show, with Dr. Goodwin and her student, Olivia Osguthorpe, that’s episode 115 of the Y Religion Podcast. If either of those topics interest you, those are fascinating interviews. Carol, this has been a wonderful day. We’ve walked through the proclamation and you’ve used your expertise. John and I are going to be better fathers. Here you are an educated counselor, you’ve dealt with, I’m sure countless clients who have had a myriad of difficulties. You’re a woman of color and you’re a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think our listeners would love to know how that happened. Why do you believe?

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:52:08             Wow, first of all, I can’t help think about the impassioned testimony of Kevin Brown, who is a fellow Jamaican. Parents were Jamaican, and so it was beautiful to hear him speak from the pulpit. He basically said, when you know, you know. I remember when I encountered the missionaries, I knew. Everything about the doctrine that I learned seemed to fit in. The one thing that threw a wrench in things was learning about the priesthood. I was devastated because everything that I held dear, marriage in the temple, being sealed, all of those things seemed to evaporate when I heard about the priesthood. I remember telling them the night before my baptism when they told me about the priesthood ban was that I would not be baptized. I was so hurt by it, and one elder stood up, made a promise to me, and his promise was that by the time that I was ready to be married, every worthy male would have the priesthood, and I remember him standing and making me that promise.

                                           00:53:23             It was May 29th, 1975. It was that promise that he made me, that hit my heart and I believed his promise. I said, okay, I will be baptized tomorrow. I remember also having a personal prayer about why, and Heavenly Father promised me that it would be revealed to me, but it’s not what I’m being told. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have been involved in my life from the beginning of my investigation of the Church. Every time I’ve questioned, I’ve opened up the scriptures and the one scripture that I opened up to when I was having doubts was the one where it says, did I not speak peace to your mind? That has come up on many occasions. I have had many confirmations. I have seen the Lord’s hand in my life getting me from London, England to Brigham Young University to where I was one of the first to graduate with my master’s in my family.

                                           00:54:36             I believe that he really helped me, and has been showing up in my life for many occasions, and I have felt his testimony. To be this obscure girl from London, England to be called to serve on his council, tells me that I am cherished and that I am loved, and he repeats it over and over again in every aspect of my life as I have lived this gospel. Even when some of my choices were questionable or caused me to have to repent, I really felt like he was with me. I struggled to pay my tithing. It was one of the hardest things for me to pay. I could not make sense of the math that if I am just barely making it, then how can I pay 10% and pay my rent and do the things that I needed to do, and he showed me over and over again that he would help me.

                                           00:55:39             Sometimes it was monetary. Other times I must have made cuts that allowed me to pay my tithing and I remember I was overdrawn in my checking account by 300 and some odd dollars. I just was not sure how I was gonna make it work. I was a student at BYU at the time. I was working at FW Woolworth down on Center Street right by where the NuSkin building is, and I remember going to work that day thinking, I am in trouble ’cause I’m not gonna get paid for another couple of weeks. I’m overdrawn. I didn’t know what to do and I remember going into work. My manager said, I need to talk to you, and she called me back. Apparently someone came in from the labor department and said that they needed to pay the part-time staff holiday pay and different things like that to bring them into compliance. They handed me a check and it was for $365, which was the amount that I was overdrawn in my account and I could not believe it.

                                           00:56:51             I know that that seems pretty crazy, but it happened and I was able to get out of debt with my bank, get my affairs in order. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have shown up for me on many occasions and have spoken peace to my mind or have given me a direction or something. I believe because I have seen the fruits of this gospel and what it can bring into my life, even when things have been hard, it’s kind of like when you’re swimming and you feel like you’re drowning and you relax and then you become buoyant and you float to the top. That’s what it feels like when heavenly Father grabs you in His arms and takes you through. You feel like you’re floating and you’re buoyant in water, and I have felt that many times. When my sister passed away, when I struggled with wanting to be married. I just felt his presence and his assurance that he has a plan and it’s better than I thought. It has always worked out that way, which helps me to believe. I have chosen to trust Him. Most of the time, when I have it has brought great blessings to my life. That is why I believe. I believe in his promises because I have been privileged to some of those blessings that he has promised me.

Hank Smith:                      00:58:28             Thank you. What a beautiful day, Carol. I want you to be in my family. Like, I’m glad we’re all one family.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:58:40             Yes, we are. I am in your family.

Hank Smith:                      00:58:42             Yeah. We can call each other family, brother and sister. There’s a reason we

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:58:47             That’s right.

John Bytheway:               00:58:47             That’s right. There’s a reason we do that.

Hank Smith:                      00:58:49             John, one way I know I have an increase of the Spirit is my desire to do better, to be better, to be more kind, to be more gentle, to repent, to go and hug my little kids and they’re not so little anymore, but kiss ’em on the head and say, dads mess up sometimes.

John Bytheway:               00:59:11             Yeah. I thought I knew Carol and some of her backstory. I didn’t. And my respect for you is, I can’t reach high enough to show you. So thankful that you came and talked to us today. I think people will feel like, Hank and me. Gonna do a little better. Gonna try a little harder. Gonna love my kids and tell them, Hey, dad’s make mistakes. We’re gonna keep trying. We’re gonna do this together.

Hank Smith:                      00:59:37             We’re gonna keep going. We’re a family. Yeah. Aunt Carol’s gonna help us.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:59:43             I had many adopted kids for many, many years of my friends.

Hank Smith:                      00:59:47             Well, don’t worry, I have four boys I can drop off at your house very soon.

Sis. Carol Costley:            00:59:51              Okay, great.

Hank Smith:                      00:59:54             With that, we want to thank Sister Carol Costley for joining us today. It has been such a treat. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. It’s the last episode of this year’s Come, Follow Me on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website. Followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorensen.

                                           01:00:54             Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.