John Bytheway:               00:00                   Welcome to part two with Brother Alvin Jackson Doctrine and Covenants 133 and 134.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          00:09                   You look down in 32 to 34, it’s the blessings that are afforded to us all. And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim. And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy. Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.

Hank Smith:                      00:39                   Ephraim seems to be the tribe that’s holding the family reunion.

John Bytheway:               00:43                   The gatherer.

Hank Smith:                      00:45                   Yeah the gatherer.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          00:47                   That’s right. Yeah I’ve got a boy, my basketball boy, my NBA boy is from the tribe of Issachar, which was interesting.

John Bytheway:               00:55                   Wow, how cool is that? Yeah.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          00:58                   Yeah. So we’re like, who is Issachar? So we ran home and started doing our studies ’cause the patriarch didn’t know. We’re thinking, man, please be something positive. So as we we read it, we were like, wow, that describes him perfectly.

John Bytheway:               01:13                   No kidding.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          01:14                   Yes. The Lord knew. This kid is an interesting kid. He was just, first of all, hit the genetics lottery. I mean he’s got a body like Adonis can jump out the gym and shoot the ball. He is quite talented. Everything he does, he does really well when it comes to athletics. He’s Issachar, which is interesting.

Hank Smith:                      01:33                   That is really cool. Let’s keep going.

John Bytheway:               01:36                   Yeah. We still have another section too.

Hank Smith:                      01:39                   I want you to get to 134. So we can just pepper you with questions about the government.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          01:45                   You go down to 37 and 39 and the Lord again highlights, Hey, and this gospel shall be preached unto every nation, kindred tongue and people. Then he starts out in this section highlighting the why. I’m coming again. Get ready, prepare yourselves so that you all can go out in the world and gather and create Zion. And we wanted the parable of the bridegroom. Then he ends by saying some of the same things he said throughout the scriptures. Bring them, the gospel is gonna be preached to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. What do you think about 46 to 48? It talks about, and it shall be said, who is this that cometh down from God in heaven with dyed garments. Yea from the regions which are not known clothed in his glorious apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength. And he shall say, I am he who speak in righteousness mighty to save. And the Lord shall be red in his apparel and his garments like him that treaded in the wine vat. What do y’all think of that? He’s gonna be wearing something different than white, isn’t it?

Hank Smith:                      02:55                   Yeah. Yeah. Pretty incredible. When you go back to Israel and you learn about the process of making wine, they couldn’t use heavy, heavy rock to crush these grapes because it would crush the seed and make the wine bitter. They would use their bare feet because it’s just the right pressure to juice one of these grapes but not crush the seed. But when you’re done, your clothes are covered. Here he is giving that same symbol. I did this alone and his clothes are covered in that symbolic blood.

John Bytheway:               03:37                   Boy makes you feel reverent just thinking about it. Ugh. Imagine seeing that much red on someone’s clothes. I mean, that makes me feel reverent. Like wow.

Hank Smith:                      03:51                   So again, I don’t know if it’s literal or figurative. I think those fans of the University of Utah and Frank Jackson might really like verse 48. It’s a beautiful idea that here he comes and having performed his atoning sacrifice, his garments show us that, his clothes show us his identity.

John Bytheway:               04:13                   I don’t wanna skip verse 45 guys, if you don’t mind because one of my top 10 scriptures I think, I’ve never actually made the list I just say that all the time, is 1 Corinthians 2:9. This sounds like an echo of that in verse 45. Since the beginning of the world hath not men heard nor perceived by the ear, neither hath any eye seen, oh God, besides thee how great things thou hast prepared for him that waited for thee. You guys know that verse. When Paul wrote that it’s like imagine the greatest thing you can possibly imagine and it’s better than anything you can even conceive for those that love the Lord or in section 45 that wait for him.

Hank Smith:                      04:58                   I’m really impressed with the weaving in and out of the Bible here in this section.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          05:06                   Right. And going back to what you said and his voice shall be heard, I have trodden in the wine press alone and have brought judgment upon all people and none were with me.

John Bytheway:               05:17                   That was earlier in this section?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          05:19                   That’s in verse 50.

John Bytheway:               05:21                   Because yeah, he called it a wine vat and here called it a wine press.

Hank Smith:                      05:25                   He can say, because I did this, I alone am in the place to judge all people. I now have this skillset or the tools I need to look into your heart and soul. It’s really poetic and symbolically it’s rich.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          05:46                   He descended beneath all things, which means he can lift us up.

John Bytheway:               05:51                   There’s a literal interpretation of that too when you think about the Dead Sea being the place on earth and that Jordan that feeds that. So he’d literally to be baptized, descended below all things and then reminded Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail that he had descended below all things of being imprisoned and falsely accused as well. So it’s cool to think, wow, it’s in more than just one way. He descended below all things.

Hank Smith:                      06:19                   And it’s not necessarily a guilt trip John likes to say, pack your bags we’re gonna go on a guilt trip. In verse 53, I see him saying, I know your afflictions, in their afflictions he was afflicted. I’ve gone into your afflictions with you. I can save you in love and pity. I can redeem you and carry you. This is an invitation to come to the only one who can save.

John Bytheway:               06:50                   It’s like Alma 7:11 and Alma 7:12 where he will know according to the flesh, how to succor his people because he will be here according to the flesh. He has lived here in a body. Therefore he will know how to succor us, which is cool.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          07:09                   Because he loves us right there in verse 52. And they shall mention the loving kindness of their Lord and all that he has bestowed upon them according to his goodness and according to his loving kindness forever and ever. It gives you hope, but you gotta be in the scriptures to read this, to know it for yourself. ’cause if you don’t, then you’re going into battle with a toothpick and a bandaid as opposed to putting on the whole armor of God, which includes studying these scriptures so that these words can resonate with you and the Lord can speak to you and you realize and learn about his dealings with men and his goodness and his love for us, and that he knows us individually. He knows what our struggles are and what our problems are and our afflictions and he can help us.

Hank Smith:                      08:03                   The scriptures do, they pay you back your investment and then some. They pay dividends.

                                           08:09                   Well put.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          08:12                   When you go over to 56 here, this looks like it almost language similar to the morning of the first resurrection and the graves of the saints shall be open and they shall come forth and stand on the right hand of the land when he shall stand upon Mount Zion and upon the holy city, the New Jerusalem and they shall sing the song of the Lamb day and night forever and ever. What are your thoughts about that verse gentlemen?

John Bytheway:               08:38                   Just talking about graves being open. I just love the idea of the resurrection and that graves are a temporary thing. They take up a lot of real estate, but one day those will all be emptied. It’s so fun to think of those who have passed on of being with them again all because of the victory of the Lamb.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          09:00                   That’s right. In verse 57 and for this cause that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed. The Lord sent forth the fullness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant. There’s covenants, again and love this notion of covenants and each covenant that we make with the Lord binds us to him even more. Referencing a talk that Elder Rasband gave in two conferences ago about those additional covenants bring us closer to the Lord and then President Nelson highlighting how that covenantal relationship empowers us. And he says, does it make life easy? He says, absolutely not. But it makes life easier the more covenants that you make with the Lord. And he’s referencing not only our baptismal covenants but also getting to the temple to make those additional covenants with the Lord that they empower us. And as Elder Soares has talked about, to give us that covenant confidence, people look at me and probably would think, man, Al sure is arrogant. No, I am covenant confident. That’s what I am.

John Bytheway:               10:09                   In 1 Nephi chapter 13, it talks about things which are plain and most precious being removed, but then the line that sometimes we skip that adds and also many covenants, things that are plain and most precious and also many covenants. And I’ve heard Robert Millet say the restoration of the gospel was in fact a restoration of covenants, which I thought, oh, good point. So we can have covenant confidence. There’s a verse that I’ve always loved that it actually goes back to Ammon in the Book of Mormon where it says that he did cause them to flee by the strength of his arm. But this is the same Ammon who said, I will show forth my power and then corrects himself and says, or the power that is in me. And in section 35 of the Doctrine and Covenants, it says, their arm shall be my arm. Then it says that they will thresh the nations by the power of my Spirit. And that verse is repeated there in 59, by the weak things of the world, the Lord shall thresh the nations by the power of His Spirit. So I’ve got my D&C 35:13 reference written next to that ’cause I love that.

Hank Smith:                      11:19                   I am right with you there. The I’m going to use the weak things of the earth. Now it’s not a very complimentary thing to say of us. The Lord is saying, look, I will take those that don’t look like they can do much. These aren’t the kings of the earth. I’m gonna take a farmer. I’m gonna turn him into a prophet. The weak things of the earth will be those who thrash the nations by the power of my Spirit. I sometimes will joke around when I teach that the Lord says to Joseph, I chose you so everyone would know it was me. I looked across the earth and found the one person that people thought there’s no way and thought that’s who I’m going to use. And the same thing goes for all of us. The Lord says, I’m gonna take these wonderful people who aren’t the best. They’re not the theologians, they’re not the kings and the princes of the earth. And that’s who I’m going to use to spread this gospel and fulfill the promise I made to Abraham. It really is a a fun idea though not super complimentary. Right.

John Bytheway:               12:26                   You’re the weak things of the world.

Hank Smith:                      12:28                    I chose you so everyone would know it was me.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          12:32                   One attribute that I can think of when you both made your comments was humility. He’s looking for someone that will just obey like in verse 71, behold and lo, there are none to deliver you for ye obey not my voice. When I called you out of the heavens, ye believe not my servants. And when they were sent unto you, you received them not. That’s one final warning that he gives us in D&C 133 and admonishes us not to be that guy or that girl. It’s almost like the widow’s mite, bring what you have and the Lord can multiply it. Such hopeful language in this section that we just read. Very enlightening.

Hank Smith:                      13:15                   That is, it’s a lot of fun to see all of the different scripture references. I think I could spend hours and hours looking at each phrase that comes from somewhere else in scripture. It really is kind of a curtain call. You can see why this would be the appendix.

John Bytheway:               13:34                   And you know what I’ve loved hearing from Brother Jackson is that as you investigated the church this to you as pools of living water, that is interesting to me. ’cause I’ve never been in that spot. I love hearing you talk about how you came to, how old were you when you started investigating the church?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          13:54                   25 and joined when I was 26. So are you saying, John, you didn’t grow up in a Baptist church like I did?

John Bytheway:               14:00                    That’s what I’m saying. I didn’t, no.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          14:02                   I mean great, great people. I loved every minute of it. It was more entertainment than opening up the scriptures and let’s read the scripture and then let’s apply it to our life. Yeah ’cause before that, I mean I didn’t read a whole lot of scriptures before I found The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I knew the Lord, but I know I’m a lot better now because of the Book of Mormon and latter day revelation. Is our church as exciting in terms of the music? Do we clap? No. It’s a little different than how I was raised, but it’s still fun nonetheless because I leave enlightened with knowledge that I can use in my daily life to help me be the best that I can be.

Hank Smith:                      14:49                   I love it. And you can see that in verse 62. I gave you all this so you can repent and be sanctified. That’s what it feels like to get that living water, to take it in. You feel like you’re being sanctified. What a awesome section. Not a section that comes to mind when I’m out teaching or speaking. It’s profound in its own right. Kinda like that section one John where you think this is good and then you get into it and you think, wow!

John Bytheway:               15:16                   You go this is amazing. Yeah and I love Hank that you mentioned these sections were given just a few days apart. They’re these huge worldwide encompassing sections of here comes the restoration.

Hank Smith:                      15:30                   Yeah.

John Bytheway:               15:31                   And they’re two days apart.

Hank Smith:                      15:33                   Now Brother Jackson, when you and I were discussing you coming on to the show, you said, Hank, my expertise is really in government and American history and I looked and saw 134 is right up your alley there. So we would love to take from you today as you give us of your expertise.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          15:56                   You’re kind to say that I’m not sure I’m an expert, but I will do my best. I came upon 134, when you talk about revelation, this section wasn’t a direct revelation from the Lord to the brethren. It was more like a declaration of our beliefs. ’cause you think about it, the environment when the church is being formed, the lay people are looking at the church membership as these people are weird. They’re talking about this different government. We have a Republican form of the government, we have a democracy here. What in the heck are these Latter-day Saints? What are they about? What are they for? Are they part of us? Are they against? I mean what’s going on here with these folks? In Doctrine and Covenants 134, there’s a general assembly of priesthood leaders that convene in Kirtland on August 17th, 1835. This is from the heading, to listen to Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon present the Doctrine and Covenants for their approval.

                                           16:54                   Oliver introduced the book and its contents to the assembled councils, after which the priesthood leaders unanimously testified of their satisfaction with the work. Then he proceeds to read a statement entitled of governments and laws in general, which is probably primarily if not exclusively the product of his mind and his writing. So the assembly accepted and adopted it for inclusion also. And thus we get section 134, which I indicated before is not a revelation, but it became canonized as part of the Doctrine and Covenants which mixes Republican principles of constitutional government and individual liberties emphatically including the rights of religious conscience. As you read these verses here, you’re gonna, that the religious conscience, the freedom to worship as you please comes up over and over again with the church concerns for its ecclesiastical rights. I read in my studies nothing in it was new or objectionable to Joseph and as I highlighted before, it’s an attempt to inform a misled and sometimes hostile public against the church because we are in harmony with the mainstream American values at the time of the publication or the beginning of the church.

                                           18:12                   I believe as I indicated before, it was an attempt to convince the naysayers that we support and sustain a Republican form of government. It distances the church from parties or causes other than sharing the gospel and to me it’s interesting that it came after section 133, which highlights the Second Coming of the Lord Section 134, not a revelation, but an acknowledgement that the Constitution we’ll talk about this played a key role in preparing the earth for the restoration of the church by ensuring religious freedom in the United States. It’s a rather redundant section as it repeats often this notion of religious liberty. When you look in verse two, it says to each individual the free exercise of conscience or we’re down in verse four, we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men nor dictate forms of public or private devotion. So you’ve got this notion of freedom of conscience, which is repeated throughout this section, and as you can imagine, they face tremendous persecution at this time sometimes by the local government per statute.

Hank Smith:                      19:26                   Well it’s 1835, they have just been hurt in Missouri over and over. They have this crazy idea that they can live on the land they bought.

John Bytheway:               19:38                   Yeah, this crazy notion that I should be able to live on the land that I actually paid for and have the deed for. But I think too, this idea of no wait, we have a constitution that says about the free exercise of religion. Why is this happening?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          19:52                   Yeah, that’s right. Throughout the text is this principle also of protection of the innocent and the punishment of the guilty or enforce the law of the same and that such as we’ll administer the law and equity and justice, which is found in verse three. Going back to what you just said, John, why are y’all treating us like this? We are American citizens. The law says you’re supposed to protect the innocent and punish the guilty and the guilty they’re ravaging us at this point in time. So what are y’all gonna do? And then verse four, it talks about the civil magistrate should restrain crime but never control. Conscience should punish guilt but never suppress the freedom of the soul. That verse really captures the essence of the entire Section 134, we have laws on the books you should restrain crime but at the same time protect the rights of individuals to worship as they please.

                                           20:52                   This is America for heaven’s sakes. This section 134 highlights that when you look at verse one here, it says, we believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man and that he holds men accountable for their actions in relation to them both in making laws and administering them for the good and safety of society. That whole notion of self-government, when you think about the principles of liberty contained in the Constitution, it allows men to act according to their moral agency, making them going back to what the word here says, accountable for their own sins. In the day of judgment Doctrine and Covenants section 101 verse 78, it says, let every man act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity according to the moral agency, which I have given unto him that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

                                           21:53                   Why is that scripture, it just jumped off at the page at me and why it’s so important because this scripture reveals the importance of self-government as it relates to the principle of individual accountability. I found a talk that President Oaks gave. He highlights this notion. He says, quote, the most desirable condition for the effective exercise of God-given moral agency is a condition of maximum freedom and responsibility. In this condition, men are accountable for their own sins and cannot blame their political conditions on their bondage to a king or a tyrant. This condition is achieved when the people are sovereign as they are under the Constitution God established, close quote, he said this in a talk commemorating the bicentennial anniversary of the Constitution. Thoughts gentlemen.

John Bytheway:               22:52                   Right off I go to the formation in the Book of Mormon of the reign of the judges. They use that same idea and Mosiah’s looking around, Hey, my four sons just wanted to go back to the land of Nephi and go on missions. We should start a new form of government. We’ll call it the reign of the judges. But it’s not just that the sons were gone, it was that you need to be accountable for your own decisions, not make the king accountable for your decision. It sounds like that was part of going to the reign of the judges was personal agency and accountability.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          23:23                   That’s when the people want a king and he is maybe not. I don’t think that’s a good idea. And he holds up a poster of King Noah and he is like, well, maybe you’ve got a point.

John Bytheway:               23:34                   He holds up a poster. Remember this guy? Have you learned nothing?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          23:39                   King Noah was a bad dude. It’s Mosiah chapter 29 where Mosiah proposes that judges be chosen in place of a king. Unrighteous kings lead their people into sin and that’s when Alma the younger is chosen as the chief judge by the voice of the people considering where he came from and now all of a sudden he is chosen to be the chief judge by the voice of the people. That highlights for me the miraculous beautiful gift of the Atonement and redemption. Here’s a young man who very similar to Saul, was persecuting the church, has a Saul to Paul, going to Damascus experience sees the error of his ways. That goes back to getting out of Babylon. You can’t have a foot in the world and a foot in the kingdom of God. It just doesn’t work. This whole notion makes the idea of the Atonement come alive for us as an individual. It enables us to the gift of freedom to choose for ourselves, making our own decisions to choose liberty to the great mediator or captivity which the other guys offers. So living in a condition of maximum freedom affords us that opportunity.

Hank Smith:                      24:59                   Brother Jackson, I see them appealing to the law because they do believe it’s inspired, instituted of God and it’s not coming through. John, you said that this constitution is only at this point, what 50, 60 years old. Can you give the government over to the people? What do you see in your experience, Brother Jackson in government? You’ve been in the Capitol, you’ve been around the men and women who are elected government officials. When you look at what the Saints were hoping for and what they received and then come into today, what are we hoping for from our government as church members?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          25:46                   Man, we’re hoping for, and I think we have been at the forefront with, and this is the beauty of what our church is doing, is we’re linking arms with other faiths. We want the government to stay out of religion and to preserve our right to worship as we please, to keep our temples sanctified and operating according to God’s will and not the government. We are fighting to keep government out of the religious spaces because it goes back to what we talked about earlier, that whole war on agency and that there are people that are conspiring minds who don’t want us to have freedom. They wanna be able to control us. They want government to be our God, to replace God. You see it when you walk the halls of Congress. I firmly believe that most members of Congress are really there for the right reasons and that they are sometimes a little misguided. I wish every member of Congress could take a civics class before they took an oath of office so that they’ve really understood the whole premise behind the Constitution and that it the whole premise is divide power among the many, so that’s not concentrated in one body or one branch of government that it’s spread out, so it avoids this whole notion of tyranny. If you’ve got power concentrated in one area, then we’re back to the government that we escaped from in 1776. That makes sense.

Hank Smith:                      27:19                   Yeah, exactly. In your work with government, what have you seen are the greatest blessings and what have you seen as the greatest cautions, warnings?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          27:31                   Oh man, that’s a very good question. The keystone of preserving freedom is strong local government and what we’ve seen happen since the early 19 hundreds with amendments that have been added to the Constitution and Supreme Court decisions. We’ve had power go from we the people and placed in Washington DC. We look to Washington DC far too often to solve problems which should be done at the local level, and I saw this in state government. There were things that we wanted to be able to do here to help the people in a a more efficient way and encourage the formation of families and protect families, but we were told, Hey, because we get money from the federal government, we have to do it their way. I think that’s the biggest threat to our republic and our democracy is the concentration of power in Washington DC as opposed to empowering us at the local level because solutions to problems are better created where they emanate. Just like you make decisions around your kitchen table. Absolutely. I do see that there are good people, they’re just a little misguided in terms of the role that they think the government should be playing right now. The government was set up to protect the right to the people, to provide equal rights to the people, not provide equal things. We’re doing more equal things as opposed to equal rights.

John Bytheway:               29:04                   That is a really good way to say it. I gotta write that down. I love the distinction. The government was created to preserve the God-given rights of people, to preserve these rights we establish governments, but I don’t get my rights from the government. I get my rights from God. Right. Is that’s the way we like to look at it.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          29:26                   Yes that’s right.

John Bytheway:               29:26                   To preserve those rights governments are instituted and then I love that the Bill of Rights was not telling the government more stuff it could do. The Bill of Rights was telling the government stuff it couldn’t do.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          29:39                   That’s right. Thou shall make no law, that’s exactly right.

John Bytheway:               29:43                   They were negative rights I’ve heard it called. Government can’t do this, government can’t do this, government can’t do this. If I remember my American history, George Mason wouldn’t sign the Constitution because it didn’t have a bill of rights.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          29:54                   That is exactly right. During that time period, the state submitted 189 different provisions. James Madison, bless his heart, narrowed it down to 14 and then the Constitutional convention, the Congress at the time just accepted the 10. That’s how we got the 10 Bill of Rights and then the founders before 1804 added amendments, 11 and 12. Then since then, John, we’ve added amendments, right? A bunch 13, 14, 15, 16, all the way up to 27, much of which took power from we the people and put it in Washington DC.

John Bytheway:               30:36                   Instead of the other way around like the first 10 did.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          30:38                   That’s exactly right. The Constitution serves as a forerunner or an Elias to the Lord’s government by creating a provisional system of government that prepares the world for the more perfect rule of Jesus Christ and his kingdom. It’s referenced in Doctrine and Covenants Section 38, verse 22. Wherefore hear my voice and follow me, and ye shall be a free people and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come. The constitutional government that we’re living under is a prelude to the kingdom that the Lord is going to oversee. This means a great deal to me as the restored gospel has really changed my thought process. I was ignorant to all these things. Since I’ve done my own study and read the scriptures and saw the revealed revelation through latter-day prophets, it’s enlightened my mind. My goal and objective in life is to spread this to as many people as will listen because knowledge is power.

Hank Smith:                      31:46                   Without going into any big details, I wanna ask you about verse six. They write, we believe that every man should be honored in his station. We’d say, woman honored in their station, rulers, magistrates, senators, representatives, they are there placed for the protection of the innocent. It seems that we can lose those two things. One that people want to be honored. Occasionally we have government officials who want to be honored but don’t remember that they are there to protect the innocent. What have you seen in your time, spending time in government? Why do we, when we get a little power, as we suppose begin to exercise unrighteous dominion?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          32:34                   We do man. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. It’s what John Adams said. The Constitution was written for moral and religious people. That’s why we have to elect people who fear God. We’re not electing perfect people. Nobody’s perfect, but we wanna elect people who reflect our values so that they will look to God’s law. When you put your hand on the Bible and you raise your arm to the square to take the oath of office, you’re telling the Lord that hand that you put up is analogous. If you look at my hand, you see it’s almost in the shape of a mountain. Then when you put your hand on the Bible as George Washington did, then you say, I’m gonna commune with God. I’m gonna go to the mountain, commune with the Lord. I’m gonna protect what I put my hand on in terms of the scriptures because a lot of what went into the Constitution came out of the first five books of the Old Testament.

John Bytheway:               33:37                   The law.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          33:38                   That’s exactly right. We want to elect people who respect the law and it becomes natural for them to protect the innocent. We’ve gotten away from that. As God has moved further and further and further away from our lives.

Hank Smith:                      33:55                   It’s not just the people in there now, we all have a tendency to, what did Joseph Smith say? Almost all men.

John Bytheway:               34:04                   It is the nature and disposition of, yeah, almost all.

Hank Smith:                      34:07                   When they get a little authority, as they suppose.

John Bytheway:               34:10                   As they suppose.

Hank Smith:                      34:12                   They immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. We can forget why we’re there. Being placed for the protection of the innocent.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          34:21                   Yeah. That’s a great scripture that you read there. Thank you for highlighting that. Let’s look at the time period that they’re in. They’re looking for the rulers and magistrates to protect the innocent and punish the guilty who are persecuting them, who are not respecting their property, who are not respecting their right to worship as they please. It’s really a plea to the government. We love the Constitution and this Republican form of government just like you all do.

John Bytheway:               34:49                   Yeah. When you read this with the Missouri persecutions in mind, it changes how you read it, doesn’t it? Hank that verse you just highlighted, verse six. You’re like, Hey,

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          35:00                   They even went to the length here. If you look at verse 12 here, not skipping over all these other verses, but the latter part of the verse pertains to the churches, acquiescence to the laws of the land as it pertains to slavery. The church, although we believed it wrong, would not interrupt that relationship between master and servant. Meaning we do not believe it right to interfere with bond servants neither preach the gospel to nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, not to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men. Isn’t that an interesting verse there that they added that? Did y’all read that?

Hank Smith:                      35:51                   Yeah. That’s what they had been accused of in Missouri.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          35:54                   Right.

John Bytheway:               35:55                   WW Phelps wrote an article, Missouri was a slave state. The saints coming down there were opposed to it. He wrote this article which made it sound like, yeah, come here. Missourians got really upset about that. Am I getting that right?

Hank Smith:                      36:10                   Yeah, and they felt like it was their moral duty to protect themselves and to drive out the Latter-day Saints, they’re very clear here. You said that’s what we believe. You went after us. We will not do that. I’m certain the Latter-day Saints don’t support slavery. The idea that someone can say, I need to drive you out of my land because you are putting my life in jeopardy by teaching the gospel to these slaves.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          36:41                   To our slaves. Right.

Hank Smith:                      36:42                   We’re not leaving the door open for that kind of violence.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          36:47                   The last thing you want to do is teach a slave about freedom ’cause then he’ll want it for himself. That’s disruptive to the institution, but the brethren felt they needed to put that in there to stay out of the crosshairs. They felt like they needed to put that in there and I understand why.

John Bytheway:               37:05                   Yeah, and WW Phelps did that too.

Hank Smith:                      37:08                   Yeah. Their enemies were using that as a way to excuse themselves from harming Latter-day Saints. Well, you’re doing this, therefore we can attack you.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          37:18                   Great scriptures, great language here. If you look back to the beginning of section 134, they basically highlight that it’s not revelation. It says our opinion concerning the same.

Hank Smith:                      37:31                   I wanna ask you a couple questions just from your expertise, Brother Jackson. In your mind, how should Latter-day Saints interact with their government? I don’t know about our listeners. I’m a pretty busy person. I’m very involved in my church. I spend a lot of time in my neighborhood with my church members, with scripture, with John Bytheway, and I may neglect my duty towards government. What would you say to someone like me? I don’t think I’m the only one, John, am I the only one?

John Bytheway:               38:03                   I feel the same way. I feel like there’s so much that’s out of my control about all I can do is vote in November and that’s about it.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          38:10                   Right. What you just highlighted the problem when you talked about outta your control because power has been concentrated at the state capitol and at the Capitol in DC so I would say a couple things. Hank and John, I would say first thing, and it goes back to what John said originally, that our rights come from God. That’s the first thing that we need to teach, that our rights come from God, not government. The second thing we need to do is we need to make family time a high priority, quality family time, a high priority where we’re teaching our children out of the scriptures and we’re also teaching them stories of America. We’re teaching them to love America. We’re teaching them the atonement of Jesus Christ, and we do that on a daily basis. And the third thing we do is we study the Constitution from the viewpoint of the founders.

                                           39:02                   There’s so many books out there that we can be studying. It takes a few minutes a day. You read your scriptures and then you read something about the Constitution. There’s David Barton’s written a whole slew of things. If you’re a Cleon Skousen fan, he’s got a ton of stuff. There’s so much out there. Take a few minutes to understand the Constitution from the viewpoint of the founders. If you do those first three things, Hank and John, then you ask the Lord, where should I spend my time? Use me as a tool. Where do I go? And if you can do those first three things, freedom is a gift from God, not government, making quality family time a high priority, teaching your children these principles, and then third, learn them for yourself and then you will know where the Lord needs you to engage. Yeah. It’s different for everybody. Me, it was, there was an opportunity to run for the Senate, was not even in the least bit interested. Got a phone call they said, Hey, Al are you interested? Went back and told my family, my kids are the first ones to say, wait a minute, you’ve been teaching this constitution ad nauseum for all these years and we’re tired of, you need to put your money where your mouth is pops and run for office. So then that, that’s when the decision was made.

Hank Smith:                      40:20                   Wow. They called you out.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          40:22                   They called me out. That’s exactly right.

John Bytheway:               40:26                   It is pretty amazing. My brother told me that in his family, they had a tradition every 4th of July of watching the movie called A More Perfect Union. It’s on demand on BYUTV. You watch the framers try to put together the Constitution and it’s made me go, whoa, this is an experiment. They’re sitting at a table in a tavern and James Madison’s with George Washington and why don’t we have a, we could have a branch over here that is the legislative branch and the executive branch, and they’re sliding glasses around the table, figuring out the government that I live in. And I was like, wow, this was miraculous that this happened the way it did. So I like that tradition now. It does make me grateful.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          41:12                   The good thing is a lot of them went to the same schools. They all knew the Bible in Hebrew and Greek, and they were students of history. They knew what worked and didn’t work. They were able to bring all that collective experience from May of 1787 all the way to September 17th, five months of brainstorming sessions. Just like you highlighted.

John Bytheway:               41:36                   In the heat, no air conditioning.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          41:38                   Right. Oh yeah and they kept the doors closed because they didn’t want anybody to know what was going on. They didn’t want any influence. They wanted to give people an opportunity to change their minds once they got more knowledge, as opposed to having the reporters there to say, hey, South Carolina stood firmly for slavery. But when you, when you do your study and research, you’ll realize that almost everyone in that room knew that slavery was wrong and that how can we ask for freedom and the Lord’s hand in helping us if we have slaves ourselves? So there was general agreement that was wrong. The question was how do we deal with it at the same time that we’re advocating for freedom as we’re teaching a people to live self-government.

John Bytheway:               42:25                   I love that perspective. They’re trying to throw off British rule, but at the same time, they’ve got these other issues and they all know it.

Hank Smith:                      42:34                   This goes right into what I was going to ask, which is, here’s verse one. We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man. From what I heard you say earlier is that these founding fathers have been kind of maligned in our day, but they weren’t perfect.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          42:53                   No, they weren’t perfect. No nobody’s perfect.

Hank Smith:                      42:56                   How have you seen that happen and and how do we correct that?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          43:01                   Because of my affiliation with the Thomas Jefferson Center for Constitutional Studies, first of all, there was a report that was done in the 1960s. It’s called the Reese Report, and it basically highlighted the plan through tax exempt organizations to change history, to hire their own scholars, to rewrite history so that it would advocate for those who wanted us to move away from a republic to socialism and communism, where you’ve got a few people at the top making decisions for everybody below them. Going back to this whole notion of power, all that information was available. It’s out there, it’s public. Benjamin Franklin, for instance, had 14 illegitimate kids and that he was the worst of the worst, a womanizer in Europe. When you really go back and read his writings and read what people thought of him, he was actually known as the father of morality.

                                           44:01                   There was more money spent going after him and changing the perception of him than any of the founders combined.

John Bytheway:               44:08                   No kidding.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          44:09                   Because he was known as the father of morality. Crazy. It all goes back to just doing your own research, doing your own research and trying to understand these ’cause you have to look at what the Lord says here about he raised up these wise men.

John Bytheway:               44:23                   For that very purpose.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          44:25                   Right. You can’t have an inspired document if you’re working with degenerates, perverts and hypocrites. There has to be something to the nature of these men that was good. Yes, they were flawed. Hank, you’re exactly right. 12 of the 55 who were in that room owned slaves, only 12 of the 55. There’s a notion that all of them owned slaves now only 12 of the 55, they all knew, going back to what I said earlier, that it was something that was wrong and they had to figure out how do we keep it contained so that it doesn’t spread, so it eventually dies out.

Hank Smith:                      44:58                   You said earlier that when we can’t fight against the principal, we fight against the person.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          45:04                   That’s right. We go after the personalities.

Hank Smith:                      45:06                   Same thing happens to the early church leaders and founding fathers.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          45:12                   Right exactly. If you can’t attack the doctrine, you go after the personality.

Hank Smith:                      45:18                   Brother Jackson, let’s combine your two expertise here. You spend your, a lot of time with YSA as the stake president. You are knowledgeable about government and history. Those of us who are the parents of young single adults, how do we get them to not be apathetic towards government, not just in the United States. We have listeners all over the world.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          45:40                   I talked earlier about the family devotional and how we started very early with our kids teaching them the leading features of the Constitution, teaching them the stories of America, reading them stories about George Washington and John Adams and so forth, and black Americans who were involved in making America what it is. At the same time, it’s never too late to start teaching your kids these principles, but you gotta learn ’em first. One of the things that I’ve noticed is everybody has a family text string that they’re on. Because our kids are out of the house now, my wife sends out a daily text devotional to the kids that includes a scripture, a quote from General Conference and some story about America that’s pertinent to the sign of the times, and the kids, oftentimes, John, don’t even respond, but you know they’re reading it and then you’re sitting at the beach with them one day and all of a sudden they bring up something that mom sent to them and they’re like, oh, they are reading ’em.

                                           46:43                   They are listening. Then my wife and I, we continue to go to these sacred places like Mount Vernon and we go to the Capitol. We went to Washington’s Crossing, and we take pictures of where we are and we send ’em to the kids and we all take pictures. Also, when we go to the temple and we send it to the kids, they’re getting daily bombarded with these things and they start to ask questions and then start to realize and remember who they are, where they came from, and what they were taught. It’s never too late to start telling our kids these little stories and particularly we’re all moving into the age now where we’re gonna be having grandkids. We gotta do the same thing with them.

Hank Smith:                      47:26                   Who’s gonna do it if you don’t?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          47:28                   Well, that’s exactly right.

John Bytheway:               47:29                   They’re not gonna get it from the world.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          47:31                   No, they’re not. Satan’s not subtle, so we can’t be subtle anymore. We have to be bold. We have to be bold, and there’s a way to do it that’s loving. Your kids know that you care about them. With the YSA, it’s about getting to the temple. It’s about making and keeping covenants. Once you can do that, then they’re more open to listening and learning about how they can make a difference in the world.

John Bytheway:               47:55                   Something that really helped me was going outside of the United States and serving a mission in what we sometimes call a third world country, seeing how most of the world lives. It was humbling. It made me grateful. I thought, I will never complain again. I think I did a couple of weeks later. Going to see and start to appreciate. It woke me up to, wow, what do we have that so many don’t have in this constitution and in the Bill of Rights and things like that. When I was in high school, Hank, I read a book called Mig Pilot. A guy named Victor Belenco was a Soviet Union pilot. He flew a Mig-25 to Sapporo Japan to Hokkaido the northern most island of Japan and landed and basically said, I defect, and he gave this Mig-25 to Japan. One of the stories that I never forgot is they took him to a grocery store in the United States.

                                           48:54                   They had to hide his identity and everything. He thought, no way, this is all a show. There is no way he’s walking down aisles of food. He said, I get to the meat area and oh, sure it’s all wrapped in plastic and it says it’s this many pounds and it’s this much per pound, and it expires on this day. He’s like, oh, I cannot believe the government made this sham because where are the guards? Where are the lines? There is no way this happens. He said to his driver, take me to the poorest part of town, and the driver said, okay, and there was a supermarket there too. He could not believe the abundance. Reading that as a kid, it really helped me. He said, if there was a new shipment of shoes in the Soviet Union, there’d be a notice about it, and a couple of days there’d be a line and they’d all be gone in two hours. And I come into these grocery stores and I see this abundance and he just could not believe it. Took him weeks to believe this was really standard life.

Hank Smith:                      50:00                   I had the opportunity to speak at the Freedom Festival.

John Bytheway:               50:03                   Yeah, that’s right.

Hank Smith:                      50:05                   In Provo, this last July. It was an incredible opportunity. Just as I was standing up to speak, I jotted down, and I wish I had my notes here, something I wanted to say at the end. I felt like it was inspired. At least I hope it was. It went something like this. As I was speaking to parents and grandparents, I said, if your children and grandchildren are going to think amber waves of grain are beautiful, it’s because you showed them. If they’re going to feel that pilgrim feet are beautiful, it’s because you told them about them. If they’re gonna find heroes proved who loved their country more than themselves, if they’re gonna find those stories beautiful, it’s because you told them to them. If they find the patriot dream beautiful, it’s because you showed it to them. Brother Jackson, this is inspiring. Tell these stories. They won’t hear them without you.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          51:09                   That’s right. Thank you for that. That was beautiful. I wish I had been there to hear that. How was it received by the audience?

Hank Smith:                      51:16                   It was a great night. It was a little nerve wracking. There was quite a few people there, but…

John Bytheway:               51:22                   The only thing that could have made it better was an F 16 flyover at the end. Right?

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          51:27                    Yeah, that’s exactly.

John Bytheway:               51:28                   Did you ask for one?

Hank Smith:                      51:30                   But there’s a reason we love, there’s a reason that you can feel the power of patriotism of those songs. John we have listeners all over the world and we don’t want to come off as those are not wonderful places to live. Here this is what Section 134 is about. That this land was established to protect the innocent.

John Bytheway:               51:55                   It was set up in such a way that even though it sure didn’t feel like it in Missouri, that religious freedom was a constitutional right.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          52:04                   That’s right. And those people, that’s why we revere those folks, what they went through so that we can enjoy what we do today. And that’s another thing we have to teach our kids, is the sacrifices that were made ahead of time. I tell my kids, yeah, we had slavery and it was awful. We don’t condone it. It was awful. But guess what? We stand on their shoulders. We stand on their sacrifice. The best way to honor their sacrifice is to be the very best that you can be, to work hard, to persevere, to rely upon the Lord as opposed to complaining about what happened. Let’s build on the sacrifice that they made. I mean, they, my parents, my, one of the things that my kids are so fortunate to have, our two parents, their grandparents during the civil rights movement grew up in the deep, deep South.

John Bytheway:               52:58                   Wow.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          52:59                   And lived difficulties. And they tell us the best way to honor that sacrifice we made is to get good grades in school. It’s to go out and get the best education you can because we sacrificed so that you all can have what you enjoy. Don’t flitter it away. We don’t need sob stories or you don’t get empathy for injuries you didn’t endure. We endured them. So move forward.

John Bytheway:               53:26                   Hmm. It reminds me, Hank of that line we’ve used here before, rather than be offended for them, let’s be inspired by them.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          53:36                   There you go. I love that statement. Wow. This has been awesome. I’ve really enjoyed this

Hank Smith:                      53:42                   Well, we’ve enjoyed having you here. Let me just ask you one last question, if you wouldn’t mind.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          53:48                   Okay. Yes.

Hank Smith:                      53:49                   Here you are educated, involved in your government and a faithful Latter-day Saint, a believer, a convert to the church. What’s that journey been like for you? How do you feel about the church and the restoration? I think we’ve got a general idea of it, but I think our listeners would be interested to hear it from you directly.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          54:10                   It is so delicious to me. I plead with our young people all the time, don’t ever go inactive. I beg them. I said, you’re gonna need this church community. You’re gonna need the relationship with the Lord through your covenants, they get to the temple ’cause life for you young people, it’s hard. It’s difficult, but as President Nelson said in last conference, better days are ahead. What the church does for me is put things in perspective because of the knowledge of the plan of salvation, but it also makes me excited about the future. I don’t fear the future. I just think if you’re prepared, you shall not fear. We’ve got all the resources and tools that we need to really make a difference in the world. It’s exciting. The gospel of Jesus Christ is delicious to me. I love going to church. I work in the temple.

                                           55:05                   I love being in the temple. Does that mean my life is easy and I’m on a bed of roses? Absolutely not. I’ve got worries and concerns just like everyone else. Things don’t always go right for me. But guess what? I can always lean into my covenants when things get difficult and look for opportunities to serve others. The church also is, it affords us the opportunity to serve others. It’s that mechanism for us to be able to serve others. And I think that’s where real happiness comes when you forget about yourself and you’re helping other people, and we try to get our young people serving as much as possible in the communities to minister to one another and to magnify their callings because that’s what’s gonna bring enduring happiness. And I do know that my heart aches for those who want to be married. It’s a difficult road, particularly for our sisters, but if they can make and keep their covenants and remain faithful, the Lord is gonna answer their prayers and everything’s gonna be all right.

Hank Smith:                      56:03                   The Lord promises a fullness of joy.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          56:06                   Yeah, that’s right.

Hank Smith:                      56:07                   This has been very inspiring to see your humility and your kindness and then your love of American history and government, because you didn’t mean to call me to repentance but you did just by your example.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          56:24                   You’re too kind. You two have been my heroes for the longest time. I thank you for this podcast for all that you all are doing to make a difference. And as you said at the beginning, we’re just in this to help people make their lives better. That’s a worthwhile endeavor. We need more of that in this world. So thank you. Let’s bless some lives.

John Bytheway:               56:45                   So overwhelmed with gratitude so many times as I record these podcasts, just to be able to sit here and learn from some really amazing people. And you have so many titles you humbly wanted to go with Brother, but Senator, wow and President, that’s awesome. And thanks for teaching us today and talking to you reminded me of some of the things my dad said when he joined the church at age 24, about things he had never imagined existed that he learned about, and it’s that living water that we’ve talked about. Thanks Brother Jackson.

Bro. Alvin Jackson:          57:19                   Thank you all. God bless you both.

Hank Smith:                      57:21                   That’s exactly right. Today has been living water on parched ground.

John Bytheway:               57:25                   You bet.

Hank Smith:                      57:27                   Well, with that, we want to thank Brother Alvin Jackson for being with us today. We wanna thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen. She is as patriotic as they come. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder who also loved this country, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re gonna cover more Doctrine and Covenants on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website. FollowHIM.co. That’s FollowHIM.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson:          58:29                   Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.