John Bytheway: 00:00:04 Hello everyone and welcome to followHIM. Today we’re doing one of our Voices of the Restoration episodes, which means we have one of our favorites, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, with us today, and Hank, I love the title of this: Spiritual Manifestations and the Kirtland Temple. What comes to mind when we read that title?

Hank Smith: 00:00:24 Well, first of all, we love having Gerrit here. We love it. You and I light up when Gerrit sits down in the studio. John, I’ve spent some time at the Kirtland Temple, as have both of you. You sit outside and you, you just look at it. You start to, I don’t know if you’ve both ever done this, but you try to envision this building surrounded by dirt roads, these saints, these impoverished saints, and here they are building this and it’s massive to them. To us, it’s, you know, well, it doesn’t look like our temples.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:01:01 This must have been one of the small temples.

John Bytheway: 00:01:03 This was a mini temple. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:01:06 The fact that it’s still there, I’m sure both of you have done the inside tour where you go downstairs and you look at the foundation and you go, how is this thing still standing? You walk in, there is a feeling there, and even before the church bought it, I had that same wonderful feeling walking through that temple, feeling of the spirit of those people. I’m excited to today to learn from Gerrit and bring it more to life. Bring them to life.

John Bytheway: 00:01:38 As you go, now that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints now has custody of it, they’re always very anxious to thank the Community of Christ for taking good care of it. I’ll tell you the same thing, Hank, I used to go there before our church acquired it. I felt the same way just thinking of what happened there. Wasn’t it one of the largest buildings in all of Ohio at the time that it was built? I’m just excited to hear from Gerrit about this. Gerrit, what have you got for us on this building?

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:02:11 Where do you start on the Kirtland Temple? I mean, talking about this is the pinnacle event for the church up to this point. You have so many people that will talk about their experiences, not just in the sacrifice, in the building of it, and the paying money towards it, but the manifestations that take place surrounding both before and after its dedication. I mean, we have people having powerful spiritual experiences surrounding the temple years after the dedication. In the time when the saints are being driven from Kirtland, you have people that are having spiritual manifestations and miraculous visions leading up to the building of the temple, and then of course you have them in the dedication itself. As far as a marvelous building, I mean there really is almost nothing else like it. I don’t wanna demean the Nauvoo temple and be like, man, that was nothing.

  00:03:13 Let’s just talk about Kirtland or the Salt Lake temple. I mean, there were spiritual manifestations at many of the early temples that were dedicated, but boy, the Kirtland Temple almost seems like this conduit to the other side, to our Father’s kingdom. That the heavens almost can’t be restrained in the veil being separated and angels appearing, people speaking in tongues, singing in tongues, people seeing illuminations, people seeing visions, the Savior appearing. Obviously, we know of some of the other great visions that Joseph has there. It is an incredibly remarkable place where if you had to pick somewhere that you could go and say, where could I go? Where there have been more spiritual manifestations than any other place we know of. It would be the Kirtland Temple and wherever Wilfred Woodruff is that night. He’s got angels visiting all day, wherever Wilfred Woodruff is, probably also there’s another vision. But for the Kirtland Temple, it is an incredibly holy place connected to the kingdom of heaven, and you almost get this sense that however many millennia that people are waiting for these keys to be restored to the earth. This anticipation is driving some of the spiritual manifestations that happen there.

John Bytheway: 00:04:53 When we think of the backstory, as we talked about this year, that the Lord was so anxious to get them to build it and had to remind them again to go build the temple, boy, when they got done, then you see, okay, yeah, I could see why we needed to do this. What was the thing that he said, you’re walking in darkness at noon day because you haven’t built this? It seems like he was so anxious to send these manifestations. One of the things that I just love is that so many different people saw things. I don’t know how many were there at the dedication. When you’re there, it doesn’t seem like you could cram as many people in there, but what do they say? How many were sitting in there?

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:05:36 They claim that it’s 900 to a thousand, which they then say, which is as many as could comfortably be. Now, we have very different definitions of comfort. Also, I don’t camp. I mean, those are the two.

John Bytheway: 00:05:53 Yeah.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:05:54 It would seem almost impossible to shove that many people inside. What Joseph reports in his journal is that there’s over 500 people standing outside waiting to get in before they start. So, they go show up in the morning, there’s 500 people outside. It’s like Hank Smith’s giving a fireside. Their people are lined up. They’re ready to be a part of this sacred experience. They’re turning people away. They will tell the people that can’t fit in to the spot that they’re gonna go over to the schoolhouse and they’re gonna have their own meeting, their own meeting during the dedication. Obviously, they’re not piping in with a video monitor, the things that are going on. Well, there are so many people that the schoolhouse is overflowed. So, the overflow overflows and people can’t even get into the secondary meeting, that isn’t even in the temple. That isn’t even a part of the dedication. That kind of reflects just the desire of these saints to be a part of what they all feel to be an incredible experience. Speaking of all these manifestations, I thought I’d share with you something from someone who’s not a member of the church. I figured that’s the best way to start. We have all of these, all of these great powerful spiritual experiences. Let’s talk about someone who hates the church. I feel like that’s what you guys have come to expect from me.

  00:07:38 The reason why I share it is, certainly some of the experiences that happen at the Kirtland Temple people talk about later. You don’t have a journal from every participant at the Kirtland Temple dedication. In fact, you have a journal from almost nobody because like me, they aren’t keeping a journal. Many of the statements you get are after the fact. They are people reflecting back and talking about what they experienced. That will sometimes allow critics or antagonists to say, well, I mean sure, they like later said, they saw an angel, but how come I don’t have a notarized copy of their journal from the day it happened that said they saw one? The argument for proof of these miraculous manifestations is ordering on the preposterous, especially because we’re talking about angels. I mean, you almost wanna say to someone like that, so let me get this straight.

  00:08:38 If I did have a journal entry from the day when someone said they saw an angel, then you’d just believe it. Well, of course not. Oh, okay, so it actually has nothing to do with when they said it. It’s just an argument that’s made. There’s an interesting letter that is sent by a guy named Lucius Parsons. He writes a letter on April 10th, 1836. So, you have March 27th, you have this initial meeting. You then have a follow-up meeting. You have multiple meetings. You have meetings that are just for the Quorum of the Twelve and the Seventy. You have multiple meetings associated with this kind of more than week-long dedication process. This is right after that. April 10th, 1836, writing to Lia, his his sister, talking to her about this. Now he’s writing from Kirtland. This is not how the letter starts. He talks about all kinds of things like, Hey, how’s this person doing? We’ve got someone who did this. Then he gets to the Latter-day Saints. Do you know anything about the Mormons? If not, I will inform you a little about them. They are a sect who believe the Book of Mormon is part of the Bible. It’s tough when someone else is doing your theology, right? They…

John Bytheway: 00:09:52 It’s part of the Bible.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:09:53 Yeah, I mean, well, I mean we believe it works hand in hand with the Bible, but yeah. Okay. They’re a sect that believe the Book of Mormon is part of the Bible, the author and proprietor of which is Joseph Smith Jr., who is their prophet and seer. They have lately had what they term a solemn assembly. This was at the completion of the lower story of the temple, which is finished in a very singular order, having four pulpits on each end of the house and curtains between each. Also curtains dividing the house in the center. They have had wonderful manifestations there of late, behind the curtains. This was in the night. Their meeting was held for several nights in succession. None but the prophets and elders were admitted. That’s not true. The number of prophets now amounts to 12, so he’s talking about the Quorum of the 12 there.

  00:10:43 Some can see angels and others cannot. They report that the Savior appeared personally with angels and endowed the elders with power to work miracles. And likewise, the temple was lighted without candles. Here is a letter written literally from the time period by someone who does not believe in the church and is actually quite antagonistic. He is saying, they are saying Jesus has appeared to them. They are saying multiple angels have appeared to them. They’re saying that they’ve received power from God. They’re saying that these manifestations have gone on. When someone will later say, oh, well yeah, I mean, they just later said that angels appeared. Oh, really? Someone should have told this guy not to write his sister and lie to her about the fact that they were saying that Jesus had appeared to him then. So it is an interesting source that it’s actually well known in the community what types of manifestations are going on in these different dedicatory services.

John Bytheway: 00:11:54 I love the fact that it’s not just Joseph Smith. That so many after the First Vision were shared visions, and now there’s many, many people that are talking about things that they’ve seen there in the temple so that even the man you just quoted would write about it and get some things right.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:12:16 It is one of the more singular aspects of our faith that we are not simply claiming that Joseph Smith had a powerful spiritual experience and that he was inspired by God. We are certainly claiming that, but he has multiple shared visionary experiences, miraculous experiences that are not with him alone in the Kirtland temple. Some of the greatest manifestations are the coming of not only the Savior, but of Moses, and Elias, and Elijah coming and restoring keys, and that is not just to Joseph Smith. Oliver Cowdery is a witness and a participant in this miraculous experience where these keys are delivered. Even if someone wants to be a detractor to Joseph and say, well, I’m sure Joseph thought that he had a vision, but of course he didn’t because God doesn’t really exist. Well, what do you say about all of the other people? Sure, you can blithely say, well, I I just think they’re all lying about it.

  00:13:30 Okay, but you’re talking about a lot of people. You’re not talking about four people or three people. In the case of the manifestations of the Kirtland Temple dedication, you are talking dozens into the hundreds of people who see, feel, or experience something miraculous in the course of those dedications. And, of course you can dismiss it and say, I don’t think so, but all you’re doing is providing your opinion because you don’t have any way to demonstrate that those things didn’t happen. You don’t have other evidence of them later in life saying, yeah, I never really saw an angel. You’re just saying what you want to believe and what you wanna believe is that those miracles didn’t happen because if they happened, well then, I’ve gotta deal with this. What does it mean if in fact Jesus appeared to people multiple times in the course of several weeks at the Kirtland temple?

  00:14:29 What does it mean if multiple angels appear? What does it mean, if in fact cloven tongues of fire like the day of Pentecost rests down on people in that meeting and that people speak and sing and prophesy in unknown tongues? What does it mean? Because you have to ask this question, well, is this really true? So it’s much easier to simply try to say, well, none of those things actually happened. Then you don’t have to ask the question of whether or not it’s true, but you don’t have a historical basis for making the argument that the participants involved didn’t believe spiritual manifestations happen.

Hank Smith: 00:15:09 Yeah, yeah. That’s crucial. You can say, I don’t think it happened, but you can’t say they didn’t think it happened.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:15:16 It would be historically erroneous to make a claim that the participants didn’t think it happened. You would make the same argument about the New Testament. I mean look, Jesus’ followers are certain that he walked on water. That doesn’t prove that Jesus walked on water, but it certainly proves that they believed he did. You have to take that belief that they have seriously. You can still say, well, I don’t think so. When it comes to the Kirtland temple manifestations, there are so many of them. They are so similar in their details though varied in their types of sources. Some are early, some are late, some are even from non-members. Some are people providing great details. There’s so many sources. It becomes impossible for someone to say, oh yeah, nothing special happened there. You can say that, sure, all those people are wrong, but boy, they’re all wrong about the same type of thing, I guess. They’re all claiming the same type of manifestations. They’re all claiming the same type of spiritual experiences.

Hank Smith: 00:16:23 John, it reminds me of the blind man in John chapter nine. Do you remember? He says whether he’s a sinner or not, I know not. Here’s what I know, I was blind, now I see. No one can say, No, you don’t really believe that. He’s like, yeah, yeah, I believe that. I was there.

  00:16:46 Yeah, beginning of the Come Follow Me manual says, this is under Voices of the Restoration, Spiritual Manifestations in the Kirtland temple. This is not in the hard copy, but it is in the online copy. Below are the words of Latter-day Saints who were in the Kirtland temple during its dedication and in other meetings that followed. Many compared their experiences to what the ancient saints experienced when they were “endued with power from on high” on the day of Pentecost. This is Eliza R. Snow: “The ceremonies of that dedication may be rehearsed, but no mortal language can describe the heavenly manifestations of that memorable day. Angels appeared to some, while a sense of divine presence was realized by all present, and each heart was filled with ‘joy inexpressible and full of glory’.” Yeah, she’s lying. She’s…

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:17:44 Well, just making it up. You can tell she doesn’t believe it. It’s interesting that at the dedication when they first entered the temple, it starts with Sidney Rigdon reading some of the Psalms, these scriptures connected to the temple. We will quote them today, as well when we’re talking about the temple. One of them is Psalms chapter 24. That’s how he opens this meeting is reading Psalms 24 and that’s: “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods. Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul into vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.” That’s what’s on the mind as the initial statement of the people about to begin this meeting, that this is a holy place, the people who are going to ascend the hill of the Lord, clean hands, pure heart, unified in their worship.

John Bytheway: 00:18:59 I would love to get to both of you your thoughts on just the idea of, why a temple? I don’t feel like the Christian world as a whole is thinking, well there was just that one temple, but this restoration all of a sudden, it’s so much about the temple and building more temples. The other day I was reading the April 6th, the 1930 conference report.

Hank Smith: 00:19:21 As one does.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:19:23 As one is want to do. On a Saturday.

John Bytheway: 00:19:28 Because for another reason I was looking at it, but B.H. Roberts gets up, he says to the congregation in the tabernacle, we have seven temples in the land round in about he imagines the next 100 years, 2030, which hasn’t hit yet and says to the tabernacle, imagine the day when there will be a hundred temples and you can imagine the gasping. What? A hundred temples? Look at where we’re at now. So, I’m just curious, what is this emphasis on temples in the restoration and why don’t we see that anywhere else?

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:20:02 That’s a deep question. It actually is one of the points of contention, of course, for other mainstream Christians as they view Latter-day Saints. It’s not just because, oh, the lights on the temple are so bright when they’re building it in my community. It actually strikes at the heart of Protestant theology. For Protestants, they are making the arguments that no saving ordinances exist. Salvation has legitimately nothing to do with any of your works. Salvation only comes by faith. They’re gonna have an argument among themselves about how that faith comes. Is that faith something that’s given to you purely as a gift from God? God decides whether or not you have faith and therefore decides whether or not you’re safe or do all of us have the capacity to choose to have that faith? Therefore, we get saved because we choose to have that faith. But in either case, there is no essential ordinance.

  00:21:09 One of the radicalism of Latter-day Saint Theology, and we talked about this before, that when Joseph is given the authority by John the Baptist and is baptized and they teach Samuel Smith this, he can’t accept it because the Protestant world for 300 years at that point has been teaching and drilling over and over and over again. So, you know, 300 years. Longer than the United States has existed as a country. Has stated over and over and over again, there is no essential ordinance for salvation. The only thing that matters is faith. And then Joseph, before there even is a church in 1829 is taught that there are essential ordinances and there is essential authority and keys connected to those ordinances. It is very difficult, and if you were to ask a Christian, why are the apostles still going to the temple? We know they are, from Acts, so why are they still going to the temple after Jesus and after Jesus has been resurrected, if temples are meaningless?

  00:22:20 And, there’s not really a very good answer for that. It usually ranges on, well, it was tradition or they were going there to preach the true Jesus. That’s why they went there. They weren’t really going there to worship. It is a singular aspect of Latter-day Saint Theology. What’s really interesting is that you referenced earlier, John, that they were slow to build this. They’ve got a lot of problems. Nobody has any money. Everyone’s left everywhere that they live so that they can move there. They moved into Kirtland, which becomes this hotbed of anti-Mormon sentiment. People are deliberately doing everything they can to break down the church. They form a committee in Kirtland called the anti-Mormon Committee. Which is paying apostates to go collect negative affidavits about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. There is a lot of opposition. When they first received the revelation to build a house of the Lord, they clearly don’t even know why. They at first think that it’s going to be a schoolhouse, that it’s going to be where the School of the Prophets is going to meet.

  00:23:34 And I’m sure they were like, well, it seems like Newel K. Whitney’s store is fine. Sure, we could spend thousands and thousands of hours of labor and tens of thousands of dollars building it, or why don’t we just keep meeting here in Newel K. Whitney’s store? I mean this seems fine. They don’t fully comprehend what its import is until the Lord does chastise them. The idea that there are essential authorities, essential ordinances, and essential keys is just so far outside of the Christian culture that when these things are presented, it takes them some time to have some education to understand it. You’re asking them to change everything that they thought. I mean, now some of them have already, okay, I’ve embraced what is otherwise a Catholic doctrine that you have to be baptized in order to be saved. I don’t like it, but okay, that’s what the Book of Mormon says, what Joseph Smith says. But, that’s just the tip of the iceberg of the ordinances that are going to be revealed and I think that the temple is essential for that.

  00:24:56 It’s essential for the restoration of these keys. I mean, look, obviously, God can do whatever God wants to do. Could he have given Joseph keys without a temple? Of course, he could have, but the fact that they get these keys after the entire community, without really understanding why, have sacrificed their money, and their time, and their reputation, their hours and their labor, that that is where those keys are going to be restored and that’s where the full understanding of these ordinances is gonna start to be laid out. They will perform some of these early temple ordinances in the Kirtland temple, even though it’s built very differently than the Nauvoo temple. They will perform washings and anointings in there, not yet understanding that there’s another part to the endowment. It is certainly separate from the rest of the Christian world and one of their points of contention, because what God reveals to Joseph Smith is that everyone is eventually going to be redeemed from hell-fire because we all kept our first estate and our premortal life, which is also revealed to Joseph Smit. That because we’re all God’s children, eventually we’ll all end up in a kingdom of glory, but the church doesn’t exist to save people from hell-fire.

  00:26:36 That’s already going to happen. The church exists to bring, to pass the immortality and eternal life of man-the exaltation of mankind. These things that are revealed, are explaining not how do I not burn in hell forever because we’re already beyond not burning in hell forever because that doesn’t exist. These further ordinances are revealed to say, how do I become like my Heavenly Father? What are the steps? What are the decisions beyond baptism that I need to take? What are the covenants that I need to make to obtain exaltation?

Hank Smith: 00:27:17 Two things. One, from what Gerrit said, we build a temple today, we all know what’s gonna happen and what its purpose is and what faith. We don’t even pick up a shovel. But, here they are sacrificing and spending money they don’t have in this effort not knowing. I think that’s beautiful. John, if you remember last year, one of the most difficult books, maybe the most difficult book in the Bible to understand, definitely in the New Testament, is the book of Hebrews. Where it talks about Melchizadek and the temple. Dr. Matt Gray walked us through the book of Hebrews. It’s kind of a slog. I, because he said, okay, you have to understand this, you have to understand this. Every verse had some context to it, but by the end, John, you come out convinced that there needs to be a second, third temple.

  00:28:09 That we had an Aaronic priesthood temple, but we had yet to have a Melchizadek priesthood temple. So, I would encourage anyone who’s more interested in what Gerrit’s talking about here in John’s question, go back to that episode. We can link it in the show notes. It’s a tough one, John, do you remember he walked us through verse by verse saying, now you gotta go back to the Old Testament to understand that verse. You gotta go back to the Old Testament and understand that verse. But by the end it was a beautiful thing to have that increased testimony of why we need temples, because I don’t know about you both, but I definitely heard on my mission and elsewhere, Christ tore the veil. There is no need for a temple anymore. And then comes the book of Hebrews, that says, no, no, no, it’s a different temple that’s coming.

John Bytheway: 00:28:58 Gerrit, that was so well put. The Christian churches had existed to save us from hell fire, but we learned that we’re already going to kingdoms of glory from section 76. This exists to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. That is great insight. Thank you for that. The sacrifice goes into building this Kirtland temple, and then it’s like, well, actually we’re gonna build another one for an even greater purpose. There’s Aaronic and then there’s, well actually we’re gonna go build another one now that’s gonna be different. And isn’t that one of the questions that you both have heard at the Kirtland temple. Now, did they do endowments here?

Hank Smith: 00:29:36 Right? Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:29:37 Do you get that question?

Hank Smith: 00:29:38 All the time? Yep. The other question is, do you think the church is gonna turn it into a real temple? No. One, it’s a historical marker.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:29:46 Yeah, it’s a historical landmark.

John Bytheway: 00:29:49 Yeah, and you don’t wanna say it’s not a real temple. What happened there? As Gerrit just said, oh my goodness, pick another place on earth where things like this have happened. It’s Kirtland. Wherever Wilfred Woodruff was. I like that. I remember Truman Madsen saying, Wilford Woodruff never really knew what side of the veil he was on.

Hank Smith: 00:30:08 Yeah. He would walk up to people apparently and say, I haven’t seen your father since he died.

John Bytheway: 00:30:13 Since he died. He was like, what?

Hank Smith: 00:30:16 Neither have I.

John Bytheway: 00:30:17 As we look at these different quotations in the manual, Spiritual Manifestations in the Kirtland Temple, this Sylvia Cutler Webb, I’d never heard this before, but she said: “One of my earliest recollections was the dedication of the Temple. My father took us up on his lap and told us why we were going and what it meant to dedicate a house to God. And although so very young at the time, I clearly remember the occasion. I can look back through the lapse of years and see as I saw then Joseph the Prophet, standing with his hands raised toward heaven, his face ashy pale, the tears running down his cheeks as he spoke on that memorable day. Almost all seemed to be in tears.” I mean, boy, that paints a picture. Back to Sylvia Cutler Webb: “The house was so crowded the children were mostly sitting on older people’s laps; my sister sat on father’s, I on my mother’s lap. I can even remember the dresses we wore. My mind was too young at that time to grasp the full significance of it all, but as time passed it dawned more and more upon me, and I am very grateful that I was privileged to be there.” It sounds like an amazing meeting. I know that you’ve both had experiences where you remember exactly where you were and what you were wearing. When you have a significant spiritual experience, it burns it into your memory like that.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:31:46 Yeah. It’s a beautiful rendition of what it was like through the eyes of a child to see that, you know? And she acknowledges, well, I didn’t really know what was going on at the time. I remember the feeling I was there for it. I saw it. That’s great.

John Bytheway: 00:32:00 After Sylvia Cutler Webb, we have a statement from Oliver Cowdery. Hank, would you like to read that one?

Hank Smith: 00:32:07 Yeah. He says, “In the evening I met with the officers of the church in the Lord’s house. The spirit was poured out–I saw the glory of God, like a great cloud, come down and rest upon the house, and fill the same like a mighty rushing wind. I also saw cloven tongues, like as of fire, rest upon many…while they spank with other tongues and prophesied.” Wow.

John Bytheway: 00:32:33 What do you think of when you think of cloven tongues? It just like a flame? Because a flame looks like a…

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:32:39 Yeah, I don’t know.

Hank Smith: 00:32:40 A flicker. Yeah.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:32:42 Somehow there seems to be this physical sight that they aren’t just experiencing people speaking in tongues, which they certainly are, but that they are seeing physically the manifestation of these tongues. Of course, they’re using the language of Acts talking about the day of Pentecost. We don’t really have a better description than what Oliver giving, that there’s a physical manifestation of this outpouring.

John Bytheway: 00:33:11 There’s another, there’s a Benjamin Brown. Gerrit, I know you wanted to talk about that one.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:33:16 Yeah. This experience he has, this is excerpted from a larger explanation that he has. Unfortunately, the document is not complete. It’s one of those that’s damaged and torn and parts of it are missing. You know, as a historian you’re like, oh no, where’s the rest of it? Because it was really good and I wanna know what the rest of that sentence says. But, he says here, “Many visions [were] seen. One saw a pillow or cloud rest down upon the house, bright as when the sun shines on a cloud like as gold. Two others saw three personages hovering in the room with bright keys in their hands, and also a bright chain in their hands.” This other manifestation, but the larger source, some of this is coming from a letter that Benjamin Brown’s writing to his wife. Now again, a lot of it’s missing, so unfortunately, it’ll sound like me texting my wife, missing words everywhere. But, Dear wife, I last night heard from you, which I thank the Lord and then it cuts off. There’s a bunch missing here. Rejoice in the Lord. Rejoice, let your moderation be known something, something. And then it says, now to let you know a few of the thousand great things that God is passing in this place. Let me tell you just a few. It’s almost like, I can’t write a hundredth part.

John Bytheway: 00:34:43 Yeah.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:34:44 Now to let you know a few of the thousand great things that God is passing in this place, there has been no mobs as you’ve heard, but the work of the Lord is increasing daily. There have been from one to ten baptized every day this week. Some of the elders have been out for a few days, some have baptized sixteen, some five. Some elders still continue to come in and wash and anoint for the Solemn Assembly, which will be called next Sunday and for tithing. A sacrifice with fasting and prayer in the house of the Lord from eight o’clock in the morning until four in the afternoon. And then some of it’s missing, but many marvelous things transpired, even greater than at the day of Pentecost. They are increasing in faith and expiating greater endowment. It’s expected that there is 300 of something in prayer with one accord, as at Jerusalem.

  00:35:38 Many visions are given and also revelations by night and by day. Some have already come to pass. Many have not yet, but soon will. I was present when Father Smith blessed a man who lived in Niagara County who is in a straight whether to go home on business or to stay at the solemn assembly. The old patriarch said, you want to go home, but the Lord will give you a sign between this and the morning. And the man asked the Lord for a sign about two hours after. As he came out of the house to go to the meeting, there appeared a light over the house of the Lord and extended from east to west, but that part of the heavens over his house or home was dark and he said, it is enough. Some have seen the heavens opened and have seen the Savior. Others have seen angels on the four corners of the house of the Lord, with drawn swords, and also stood thick on the ridge. Elijah with his chariot of fire, Peter, John and James, and the highway cast up and the 10 tribes returning in the chariots as far as the eye could see. Some, saw the redemption of Zion and other things. Unfortunately, cut off here. It goes on to say, old father Adam was seen. Beautiful man. His hair stood thick and curled most beautiful, even down to his shoulders. Don’t tell BYU that.

  00:37:15 Sunday evening after Joseph spoke, opened, and told them the day of Pentecost was continued, the brethren began to prophesy many prophecies in the name of the Lord. They began speaking in tongues and it filled as it were the whole house. Perhaps there were forty speaking at once. Cloven tongues of fire were seen to sit on many of them on hand and was seen laid upon when he spoke in tongues. Many visions seen. One saw a pillow or cloud rest upon the house, bright as the sun shines on the cloud, like gold. Two others saw three personages hovering in the room with bright keys in their hands–and this is what we’d read from the manual. I did not intend this for a letter, but this morning while waiting–and he concluded to, so he is gonna add this. So, then he’s also one of the people who will talk about on this Sunday morning meeting of this miracle, the child in the temple. The order of the house of the Lord was there were no small children admitted. One woman, however, not knowing the order, brought her child almost two months old.

  00:38:23 She stood outside of the door for a long time and manifested an anxious desire to enter. At length, one of the elders said, brethren, we need exercise faith. My faith is this child will not cry a word in the house today. On this, the woman and the child entered, and the child did not cry a word from eight until four in the afternoon. Which, okay, that’s already a bigger miracle than the angels.

Hank Smith: 00:38:52 Can that guy come to my house 10 years ago, please?

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:38:54 Suddenly, oh, there were angels there? No, there was a baby that didn’t cry for eight hours. It’s interesting. But when the saints all shouted, hosanna, the child was nursing, but let go and shouted also. When the saints paused, it paused and when they shouted, it shouted for three times. When they shouted amen, the baby shouted also three times and then returned to nursing without any alarm.

  00:39:22 And that’s another miraculous experience. He is got a ton of them in here. He gives us some of our best information about some of the miracles there. On the Pentecost evening, the west end of the house was illuminated by a light from heaven seen on the outside by many. Brother Benjamin Lewis laid hands on a boy that had his arm broken. He placed the bones, wrapped a rag around it. His wife poured on some vinegar and then he asked the boy to move his fingers and the boy did. This was at noon. The next morning the boy went out to pulling weeds in the garden with that hand and had no more trouble about it. They’re talking about miraculous healings that are going on as well as the miraculous manifestations. There is another discussion that he talks about. Father Stevens saw on Sunday evening, two rows of angels throughout the house. At another time, the glory of God came down on the elders from the head down halfway.

  00:40:26 Then pushing it forward a couple days into March 29th, he says, an angel was seen over the elders. Many prophecies were given and speaking in tongues. On the 29th of March, two quorums continued all night in the house. Now this is the case. They get together, the Quorums, Elders, and the Seventies. They get together. Their plan is to stay all night for a spiritual manifestation. Eventually Joseph and the first presidency, they retire because they’ve been up basically for three days straight with all of these meetings. So, it’s the Quorum of the Twelve that are there and they experienced this. The quorums continued all night in the house and the Twelve guarded it. The heavens were opened and two saw the Savior. Some saw chariots and other things. One lay about a half hour and saw from eternity to eternity. There were many miraculous experiences and many visions told.

  00:41:30 One of the people that has one of these visions is George A. Smith–will be an apostle, obviously. He’s a young, young man at this point. His family’s only been converted for a few years. He says that at the temple, he has a vision of the millennium. That while he’s there, he sees what it will be like in the millennium. When the lamb lays down with the lion and peace is brought to the world. There are just so many of these incredible manifestations that are going on, miracles that are occurring. It has to feel to these people like the heavens have absolutely been opened in this, these dedicatory proceedings.

John Bytheway: 00:42:16 As I had been thinking about talking over this today, I kept thinking of the words, the Lord is extending the Saints’ understanding, restoring his judges and all as at first, and then this part, the visions and blessings of old are returning, angels are coming to visit the earth. Why not? If this is the way God works, why not? It might sound audacious to some, but if it happened on Pentecost in Acts, why not here? And it did.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:42:43 And it’s part of the sign of the true church. It’s funny because you’ll actually have people say things like, well, I mean, how come we don’t have angels appearing? Like, well, we do. We have giant records of angels appear. When someone says, oh, we don’t have miracles like they used to have in Christ’s church. Well, only because you’re not looking in the right place. We have dozens and dozens and dozens of sources of people having miraculous experiences with either visions or miracles or visitations from heavenly messengers from the unseen world. They are powerful manifestations that this is God’s church in the last days.

Hank Smith: 00:43:24 I mean this has been a culminating event. When did Maroni appear to Joseph Smith? 1823. This is one of the first things he says, Elijah will come. It’s been 13 years. Everybody’s been waiting for this both on earth and in heaven.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:43:40 It’s interesting because when Joseph is dictating his history, by then it, most of that’s gonna be in 1838 and 1839. That early portion of what’s now in Joseph Smith history in your Pearl of Great Price. At that point, he has a better understanding of how essential Elijah is. I don’t know what Joseph knew about Elijah when Moroni first came down and told him. I mean, Joseph might have recognized the passages from the Bible, that he’s being quoted, but it’s one of the things that Joseph remembers. In fact, Joseph says, he said lots of things that I can’t rehearse. I don’t know if that means I don’t remember them. If he’s like any one of my students, if I go on a along soliloquy, I mean I know he talked a lot about stuff and that’s what they write in their essay, but Joseph remembers that he quotes Malachi.

  00:44:36 Joseph remembers the promise of Elijah. That is something that keeps coming up. It comes up when Joseph is with the expansion that happens to Doctrine and Covenants section 27, that Elijah is going to come. Multiple times, Joseph is teaching it. Then of course we talk about the manifestations surrounding the dedication of the Kirtland temple. I mean the ones that Joseph has are not just signs and wonders, the ones that Joseph has restore keys to the earth that are essential for the building up of the kingdom of God on earth. It’s very fitting that in the 1870s when Brigham Young tasks Orson Pratt to beef up the Doctrine and Covenants, to go get these teachings of Joseph that are so powerful. Like Joseph’s letter that he writes in Liberty Jail and to include portions of them in the scriptures because they are revelations from God, that the one Pratt decides to start with is the words of the angel to Joseph Smith in section two.

  00:45:46 Section one is the revelatory introduction to the book, so that’s always gonna be section one, but section two the words that they start with are Moroni promising Elijah is going to come. Then having the miraculous experience of Elijah actually coming, with Doctrine and Covenants section 110. Then carrying through that, that coming is transformative of our understanding of exaltation. Those visitations are the most important. The Lord appearing to Joseph and Oliver, Moses, Elias and Elijah restoring the keys that are essential for the kingdom of God in the last days, and they’re going to change how we understand our relationship to God and how we really understand our relationship to each other. Some of these things Joseph has an insight in, but other things, it hasn’t been revealed to him yet. The restoration of those keys helps him receive the further revelation of the ordinances that are going to be necessary for exaltation.

John Bytheway: 00:47:01 I love that we’re talking about this now and thinking about, would you please get started on the temple? Those revelations. They’re all up there waiting–would you guys hurry up because we are so excited to bring all this stuff. I’m curious what you guys think about the Benjamin Brown statement. Three personages hovering in the room with bright keys in their hands.

Hank Smith: 00:47:22 Wow.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:47:24 It sure kind of seems like it might be Peter, James and John. And, he does reference them in the earlier part of his statement, he says them out of order. He says, Peter, John and James. James getting the short shrift all of a sudden. Yeah. We do have one other statement to the Apostle Peter appearing and that comes from Truman Angell who says that Joseph identified the angel that comes in and sits down next to Frederick G. Williams during the prayer as Peter. Now, the problem is we have multiple comments on that. Some say that it’s actually the Savior. Some say that it’s an unnamed angel, and then you have Truman Angell. There’s a lot of angels involved. That’s not really the best name for this purpose, saying that it’s Peter. You actually have these two separate sources of Benjamin Brown and Truman Angell, both, in some way saying that the apostle Peter was there. Since most of these angels aren’t named and we know that angels are resurrected beings or these just spirits, they’re all people associated with this earth. It would make sense that the holders of keys in previous dispensations might be allowed to be present for the unfolding of keys in this one.

John Bytheway: 00:48:45 Yeah, and And I love how many Old Testament names we’ve been mentioning too, not just New Testament names, like what Moroni, I talked about those Old Testament names.

Hank Smith: 00:48:54 Maybe they’re counting the angels in the thousands because the angels have like balcony seating.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:49:00 Yeah, that makes sense. The angels, they fit on the seat a lot easier. They’re all in their perfect body states. There’s no Willard Richards among them.

  00:49:09 Don’t worry, I’ll sit up here. Right, right by the ceiling.

John Bytheway: 00:49:15 Oh, so chronologically, the dedicatory prayer is section 109. That’s March 27th, 1836. When Joseph and Oliver see the Savior. That’s April 3rd, 1836. Is all of those days in between? Is it all just the day of dedication? It sounds like it’s ongoing stuff.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:49:38 It’s ongoing. There are multiple meetings held for different people throughout the different days. They’re going to have another meeting because they couldn’t fit everybody in, so they’re gonna have these two dedicatory meetings, but then they’re also going to have, in between that, multiple meetings of different quorums of priesthood people in the temple itself as well. Part of the reason why you get different descriptions of the accounts of these meetings is its multiple meetings. What someone sees in their meeting of the seventies, in their meeting, may not be the same thing that they saw in the second dedication meeting that someone else was in. It is a week of Pentecost basically, where you just keep having meeting after meeting after meeting. You get a good account of this in Joseph’s journal. Joseph’s journal will cover at least a significant portion of those events that we’ve talked about, including the Dedicatory prayer, which of course is section 109.

  00:50:40 Joseph explains that they’re going to have another meeting because they couldn’t fit enough people in and everyone wants to be a part of it. It actually kind of reminds me of the similar situation that Brigham Young is in when everybody wants to get their endowments in the Nauvoo Temple before they leave. Everyone wants in it. And Brigham’s like, look, we got to get out. Violence is coming. We gotta go. He’s moved by compassion to the fact that they so desperately want their temple covenants. The saints in Kirtland, the saints in Nauvoo surrounding the temples, man, what an inspiration they are to me. I wish that I was so desperate to be in the temple that I’m lined up outside of it hours before it opens. I wish that I was so desperate, that I was petitioning to try to get in another time begging them.

Hank Smith: 00:51:39 The temple president is locking up and you’re like, please.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:51:42 Come on. Is there any way? Just one more session. It’s an inspiration to me that people who didn’t fully know what the purpose of this sacred building was, were so desperate to be a part of it. To me, it indicts myself a little bit. Where, because of continuing revelation, I have far more knowledge about what the purpose of temples are than they did in 1836, because it hadn’t been revealed yet, and they’re walking by faith that eventually they’ll understand. I mean, God had them build a building that cost more than $60,000. People contributed thousands of dollars. I mean, 5, 6, 7, 8 years’ worth of salary to the building of this temple. They don’t even really know why. They just know God commanded it by revelation. One of the things I often reflect on when we study these early saints is, boy, we always want a reason. The very first question we ask when a prophet asks us to do anything is, well, why?

  00:53:03 Why are we doing it that way, instead of this way? They don’t seem to be asking. They have developed the kind of faith that we all eventually need to have. That is, I either belong to the kingdom of God on earth or I don’t, and if I do, what am I talking about? Oh, I need to have an explanation for why the church is doing it that way. Well, God rarely provides explanations. You’ll notice he didn’t give one to Abraham. He didn’t say, let me tell you what I’m gonna do. You’re gonna go up as if you were gonna sacrifice Isaac. You’re not actually gonna do it because I’m gonna stop you right before, so you need to go through this. It’s gonna be performative. You’re gonna get right up there, but don’t worry, got a ram in the thicket. We’re ready to go. No, you just need to go do this.

  00:53:57 Abraham could have offered every kind of objection that existed. He could have said, but God, you’re the one who told me we’re not supposed to kill. You’re the one who had me flee from my father who was trying to sacrifice me. You are the one that told me this is wrong, and instead Abraham goes up the mountain. I know that that’s difficult. I get it. I read a lot. Understanding things and sources matter a lot to me. I want to know why things happen, but to borrow a a phrase from our Christian friends, at some point you need to just let go and let God. At some point, you have to be willing to say, I don’t follow a prophet simply because I understand and it’s a really good thank you for your wise advice that you’re giving. You’re right. That does seem like that would work out well for me. That you follow a prophet because he has the keys that were restored to Joseph Smith in that Kirtland temple and only one person holds those keys. President Nelson holds the keys that were restored by Moses, Elias, Elijah, Peter, James, and John, John the Baptist, and call the role. He holds those keys. They haven’t been given to anyone else, nor would they be given to anyone else.

John Bytheway: 00:55:37 We should move on. Section 109 was the dedicatory prayer. Now April 3rd, 1836, we get section 110. Do you wanna take it from there, Gerrit?

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:55:48 Yeah. When they’re having these in-between meetings, they have this overnight meeting. From Joseph’s journal, he talks about he left the meeting because he had to get ready for this next dedication that they were going to do. In his journal, it says that it was expedient for me and the presidency to retire, having spent the night previous in waiting upon the Lord in his temple, and having to attend to another dedication on the morrow or conclude the one commenced on the last Sabbath for the benefit of those of my brother and sisters who could not get into the house on the former occasion, but that it was expedient for the brethren to tarry all night and worship before the Lord in his house. I left the meeting in the charge of the 12, and retired about nine o’clock in the evening and the brethren continued exhorting, prophesying, and speaking in tongues until five o’clock in the morning.

  00:56:41 The Savior made his appearance to some, while angels ministered to others and it was a Pentecost and an endowment indeed. Long to be remembered for the sound shall go forth from this place into all the world and the occurrences of this day shall be handed down upon the pages of sacred history to all generations. As the day of Pentecost, so shall this day be numbered and celebrated as the year of jubilee and a time of rejoicing to the saints of the most high God. You can feel almost the emotion and the excitement and how heaven has finally connected with them. All during this time, Joseph still has the concerns of the world. One of the journal entries in between these days is a conversation that Joseph has with Leman Copley of Doctrine and Covenants Section 49 fame. If you remember Leman Copley, he is the one who consecrates, in air quotes, his land to the church–says he’s going to consecrate it to the church, wants to lead a missionary group by revelation to go preach to the shakers that were his former compatriots in the religion. When that mission fails and he loses his faith, he orders all of the saints living on his property, all the Colesville saints to leave his property and is in a rough spot over the course of time. Well, how rough–Joseph has just taken Doctor Philastus Hurlbut to trial, for him publicly declaring that he would wash his hands in the blood of Joseph Smith. Threatening to wound, beat, or kill him, according to the court records.

John Bytheway: 00:58:37 Hmm.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 00:58:38 One of the people that testified on Philastus Hurlbut’s side, Leman Copley. Joseph on April 1st, 1836–so in between these two meetings–he meets with Leman Copley. He says that he had many brethren call to see him, some on temporal, some on spiritual business. Among them was Leman Copley, who testified against me in a suit I brought against Doctor Philastus Hurlbut for threatening my life. He confessed that he bore a false testimony against me in that suit and goes on to apologize for that and was convinced that he was wrong and he humbly confessed it and he asked my forgiveness, which was readily granted. He wished he could be received into the church again by baptism, and it was received according to his desire and he gave me his confession in writing. In the midst of all of these religious experiences going on, you have Joseph Smith, the prophet, ever, always, desperately willing to extend mercy.

Hank Smith: 01:00:01 Almost to a fault sometimes.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 01:00:04 From my perspective, yeah, because I already know what’s gonna happen. I already know when these people, like this isn’t the only time he betrays you, Joseph. It’s coming again in two years, but yeah, he’s so desperate to bring people back into the kingdom, to have people have their sins forgiven, to re-baptize people. I mean, can you imagine going to the trial and here’s this person who once received a revelation in his name, who is standing there with this twice excommunicated fornicator, who has threatened to murder Joseph and Joseph’s family and Leman Copley’s on the other side supporting him? And then he comes to Joseph and says, my bad, sorry about that. I mean I’m sure he was quite penitent. Man, Joseph doesn’t say, you know what? Okay, I appreciate that you say that you’re sorry. Tell you what? Let’s see how things go over the next couple years. And if you maintain being a faithful brother and not lying under oath about me, then okay, we’ll get you baptized.

  01:01:21 Nope, just comes back, says, I’m sorry, and Joseph says, well, let’s get you baptized right now. His demonstration of the Savior’s love for sinners is part of the reason why you know that people who claim he is some kind of evil charlatan, they are obviously wrong. His personality is that he loves people, even people who have been vile, lying enemies of him. The second that they’re willing to repent, he grabs a hold of them and he carries them along. I share that because that happens on April 1st. It’s just after that, two days later that Joseph has one of the greatest miraculous manifestations of this entire dispensation. The mindset of Joseph, in interacting with Leman Copley that way, it’s a reflection at least of how close he is to the Savior. Two days later on Sunday, April 3rd, they are meeting in the Lord’s house.

  01:02:38 Again, there’s a thousand people that are present. They’ve dropped the veils, they’ve already done the service. This is where Joseph recounts what is now Doctrine and Covenants section 110. The veil was taken from their mind. The eyes of their understanding were open and they saw the Lord standing on the breast work of the pulpit before them and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold and color like amber. His eyes were a flame of fire. The hair of his head was like pure snow. His countenance shown above the brightness of the sun, and his voice was as the rushing of great waters. Even the voice of Jehovah saying, I am the first and the last. I am he who liveth, I am he who is slain. I am your advocate with the Father. Behold, your sins are forgiven you. I always think about his exchange with Leman Copley right before he has the Lord declare to him that his sins are forgiven.

  01:03:42 And always calls to mind, King Benjamin, are we not all beggars? Every one of us, at some point in our life, many times in your life, if you happen to be some of us, will be on your knees begging God to forgive you, begging God to overlook your stupid sinful nature, to give you the repentance promise through the atonement. Boy Joseph Smith, he really seems to understand that. It’s a part of who he is, and of course, in the remainder of this revelation there Doctrine and Covenants Section 110, those additional keys are given. That it is a powerful, powerful manifestation, not only of the Savior Jesus Christ, but His connection to these previous prophets. You’d mentioned earlier, John, the fact that people are saying they see Adam at the temple. One of the things that is clear in Latter-day Saint Theology, is it’s not a stark separation between the prophets of the Old Testament and the prophets of the New Testament that, well, that was the old way and this is the new way, but in fact there is one gospel.

  01:05:05 It’s the gospel of Jesus Christ to Adam and it’s the gospel of Jesus Christ to Malachi. It’s the gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, and it’s the gospel of Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith. Those keys are restored and transformed, and even then, Joseph doesn’t fully comprehend them. I don’t think. He learns line upon line and precept upon precept. It’s also in the temple. I know that you’ll cover this later, but it’s also in the temple that Joseph is going to have another vision of the celestial kingdom and in that vision, is going to see things that he can’t explain. Like, his brother, Alvin, being in the celestial kingdom. There he will have revealed to him the truth that even those who weren’t baptized into the kingdom in this life, can be heirs of the celestial kingdom. Yet God won’t describe how. He will just simply teach what appears to be a contradiction.

  01:06:09 You absolutely have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. Alvin is in the celestial kingdom and he wasn’t baptized. There’s no explanation. Not for another four years until Joseph is taught by revelation, the doctrine of baptisms for the dead. Even in Joseph’s life, Joseph is forced to walk by faith. Joseph could have said, nope, God, that doesn’t make any sense. You are the one who said that you have to be baptized in order to go to the celestial kingdom. There’s no possible way Alvin can be in the Celestial Kingdom because he wasn’t. Joseph pushes forward in faith that at some point, that apparent contradiction will make sense. That’s all it ever was. It was only ever an apparent contradiction. Until God revealed more and then you realize that it wasn’t.

John Bytheway: 01:06:56 I was reading in Karl Anderson’s book about the Savior in Kirtland, there’s a quotation of Orson Pratt here that I loved. It sounds like he’s talking about Section 110. He said, then you see that even this one revelation which God gave in that temple, paid the people for the toil they had endured in erecting it. What a satisfaction it was to them to know that angels administered in that temple. What a satisfaction it was for them to go into that temple and have the heavens open to them so that they could gaze on the glory of God. What a satisfaction it was for them to know that the Lord accepted, as his own, the house which they had built according to the pattern which he had given. And what a satisfaction it was for them to know that they loved God by keeping his commandments. This was a huge sacrifice. What a satisfaction now that, wow, look what happened. He came, he accepted it as his own. Do you think any of them expected what they got?

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 01:08:02 Yeah.

  01:08:02 It seems like, no, they knew it was important, but I don’t think anyone fully understood how crucial it was to the unfolding of the kingdom of God. In hindsight, you look back and you’re grumbling about putting some spackle on the side of the temple before the dedication, but 20 years later you’re looking back and you’re saying, wow, the fact that I was a part of that. I think that’s maybe a good application for our lives. I mean, we don’t fully know God’s will for us in our lives. We don’t know where we’re going to be 10 years from now, or what experiences we’re going to have even more. The reason why we need to stay as close as we possibly can to the prophet as he outlines God’s will for us, it’s why we need to stay close to our Heavenly Father through prayer and apply the atonement in our life. We don’t know what tomorrow holds, but we know that the gospel will still be the gospel.

John Bytheway: 01:09:09 Well, Gerrit, thank you. Makes me want to go back to Kirtland again and just sit there. The next time we have you on. It’s not at Kirtland Temple, it’s Liberty Jail.

Hank Smith: 01:09:21 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:09:22 Can you give us a preview of things to come?

Hank Smith: 01:09:24 Little bit of a change.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 01:09:26 You are moving me from the highest of highs, of angelic visitations, and keys restored to the earth, to the horrors associated with the violence in Missouri and of course Joseph’s own personal suffering that takes place in Liberty jail. We’ll talk about it, and over the course of the next several episodes, I’m sure that things will start to unfold a little bit. Unfortunately, there’s not a super happy ending. You’d think after all of these spiritual manifestations that everybody comes out of the Kirtland Temple dedication. All of us have been there where you’ve really felt the spirit and in that moment, you’re just like, I’m gonna start going to the temple every day, and if I get up early enough, I can go every day. I’ve gotta start reading my scriptures two hours. You start having, in your mind, you’re just like, I want to be closer to God than I am.

  01:10:27 As you’re feeling the spirit, as the spirit testifies to you. That’s what all these people coming out should have experienced. Over the course of the next year and a half, two years, things are gonna fall apart in Kirtland and in a big way. There’s multiple things that happen. The biggest in Kirtland is the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society. Banking’s nothing like it is in the United States today, and banking was actually very unregulated because of actions taken by President Andrew Jackson. In order to try to provide capital for the Saints, because it was very difficult for them to get loans from the locals in Kirtland, because they were so opposed to Latter-day Saints coming there. They decide that they’re going to try to create their own bank. It’s called the Kirtland Safety Society. People buy stock into it. People pay money into it. As this idea that we’re gonna capitalize this bank, it’ll be a place for someone to borrow money because these non Latter-day Saints, they refuse to deal with us, or at least deal honestly with us.

  01:11:32 That bank collapses for lots of reasons. The simple explanation on it doesn’t really exist, but it is a time of great financial instability in the United States. Hundreds of banks all over the United States closed in 1837. It’s called the Panic of 1837, but for Latter-day Saints, many of them, it is an incredible trial because they lose all of their money when the bank collapses. Not only have they lost all their money, the land that they own is worth almost nothing. On top of that, they’re financially devastated by the panic of 1837, by the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society. Many people apostatize, including members of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles. Some of those same men in that meeting that went all night, that saw the Savior, that saw angels, that felt the cloven tongues of fire. Some of those same men, when their bank accounts are drained, when they no longer have any money, they apostatize. Luke and Lyman Johnson, John Boynton.

  01:12:42 These are men who were original members of the Quorum of the 12 apostles who’ve had all kinds of miraculous experiences. On top of this apostasy from Kirtland, you have a growing problem of apostasy in Missouri. It’s almost simultaneous. There was a church presidency set up in Missouri. There’s nothing really you can compare it to today, because they’re dealing with the fact that it takes more than a month to communicate with Missouri at all. It’s a thousand miles away. Let’s say you’ve got a real question in Missouri. I’ve got a big question, Joseph, what are we supposed to do about this? At best, four weeks later, Joseph gets that letter, and if he’s in town and he gets it immediately and he answers it and writes it back and he sends it immediately back, your best-case scenario is two months after you asked your most pressing question like, we need to know right now, Joseph. You got an answer back. Of course, in those two months, the situation on the ground has completely changed.

Hank Smith: 01:13:48 To be fair, that is like texting John Bytheway.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 01:13:52 It’s very similar to like texting John. Seven, eight months from now, he texts back. Sounds good.

Hank Smith: 01:14:00 Yeah.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 01:14:01 You’ve got this communication separation and it’s going to lead to problems because people on the ground in Missouri, they’re dealing with the fact that the Saints were driven out of Jackson County. They all had property there that they didn’t get to sell. They were driven out by people with guns. And there’s a bunch of poor people without land that are all there under the Missouri presidency’s charge, and that’s David Whitmer and W.W. Phelps. They want to take the practical step of selling the lands down in Jackson County because at this point, members of the mob who stole the land, they know they’re on pretty precarious ground. I mean, they don’t have the deed. How are they gonna resell it? They can’t get a deed because the deed’s owned by Latter-day Saints. They start making offers to sell. You’re not getting your land back. You’re never coming back to Jackson County.

  01:15:02 Tell you what I’m gonna do for you. What if I paid you, I don’t know, half, a third of what that land’s worth, but at least you got something out of it and you signed the deed over to me, but at least you get something. The Missouri Church presidency’s gonna ask Joseph, who’s of course gonna ask the Lord, and the response is absolutely not. That land is the land of Zion. You are not to sell any of it. The Missouri Church presidency proceeds to start selling it. But now what do you do? You have a direct command from God, through the prophet, to not sell the land and David Whitmer selling the land. It’s gonna be a problem. In late 1837 and early 1838, you also have high profile apostasies or excommunications from most of the witnesses that are still livin. All three of the three witnesses.

  01:16:05 Oliver Cowdery is married into the Whitmer family. When David Whitmer and John Whitmer are brought up on charges before the church–the Whitmers are a super tight-knit family. When one of them goes, they all go just like they all came into the church together. They all go out of the church together. And the only Whitmers who aren’t excommunicated from the eight witnesses are the ones who’ve already passed away. Christian Whitmer and Peter Whitmer, Jr. have already, they’ve already died by this time. And Hiram page, who also is married into the Whitmer family. He’s married to David Whitmer’s other sister. He also a apostatizes. If you’re a member of the church in early 1838, you have seen not just a mass apostasy of your rank and file members, you have seen multiple apostles apostatize. William McClellan, like I said, Lyman and Luke Johnson, John Boynton.

  01:17:04 You have also seen all of the Whitmer witnesses and the three witnesses themselves. Martin Harris will also apostatize during this time, so Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, all going out of the church at roughly the same time. It is a real catastrophe for the church. You have this the highest of highs, and then you’re brought to these lowest of lows. That’s before the extermination order in the Mormon war in Missouri. That’s the internal problems that people have. This is a little too autobiographical, so I apologize. I always think back to my great, great great grandmother who is John Boynton’s sister, Olive Boynton. She’s married to Jonathan Harriman Hale. Jonathan Harriman Hale goes on a mission with Wilfred Woodruff to the Fox Islands. In fact, when he goes, it’s during a time of some apostasy and some of the people tell him that you won’t baptize a single person on your mission. When they finally do find someone to baptize, Wilfred Woodruff says he specifically has Jonathan Hale baptize him because he wanted to prove all those dissenters in Kirtland to be false prophets.

  01:18:25 So it’s a very Wilfred Woodruff thing to do. Like, oh, they said that you’d never baptize. Well, here you are. Guess they’re wrong. But imagine that. Her brother is a member of the Quorum of the 12 apostles and he apostatizes and my great, great, grandmother doesn’t. She doesn’t follow her brother out of the church. Her and her husband stay faithful and they move with the church and they stay with the church, and even after Joseph is murdered, they don’t join any of these other apostate sects. They follow Brigham Young and go to Utah. Well, they try to. They die in the attempt. In winter quarters. Their little kids cross the plains themselves. I am descended from those little kids who crossed the plains, without their mother or their father, because Olive Boynton stayed true to the faith. Not because she didn’t lose any money in the Kirtland Safety Society or because she didn’t witness apostasies all around her, but because she had a testimony rooted in the spirit.

  01:19:42 It’s a good warning for all of us that if there’s anything that’s more important to you than the gospel of Jesus Christ, you better believe that that’s what’s gonna be coming for you to try and test your faith. We have to make it the most important. We can’t rest our testimony. I mean, what would happen today if 3, 4, 5 apostles all publicly apostatized today and started giving press conferences about how the church has fallen and it no longer is led by a prophet? How many people would apostatize? That’s what’s going on in early Kirtland. And then in Missouri, Joseph isn’t thrown into Liberty jail, solely because of dissenters. When the conflict in Missouri begins with the violence enacted against the saints, and at one point it is extended to people trying to prevent Latter-day Saints from voting in a local election. And it leads to a fist fight, a brawl. Spiraling out from there, you will end up eventually with the extermination order, the horrific Hans Mill massacre, the betrayal and arrest of Joseph Smith and many other church leaders, and their imprisonment in Richmond and then Liberty Jail. Where they certainly will suffer themselves, but far more poignantly are inundated with accounts, both from members and from the vile perpetrators of the horrors being enacted upon the Latter-day Saints. Of the beatings, of the murders, of the assaults, of the desecrations of bodies.

  01:21:35 It’s in those moments that Joseph is going to write the saints from Liberty Jail, and that becomes section 121, 122, and 123.

Hank Smith: 01:21:45 It’s not fun to talk about, but important to learn.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 01:21:48 Yeah, I imagine I won’t be my normal chipper self next time. Maybe a little more agitated as we talk about it.

Hank Smith: 01:21:58 Because these are our people.

Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat: 01:22:00 Yeah, and when you read the horrific things that happen to to these people, it is a very difficult thing to maintain your cool. I mean, there’s a reason why Joseph writes that the deeds that are committed would cause the devil himself to pause. Joseph’s view of the horrors that are being inflicted are so terrible that they’re beyond what even he thinks Satan could imagine. That is a level of horror and devastation, and again, people apostatize there in Missouri, but many people stay true to the faith, and in fact, some of the people who suffer the most in Missouri are walking across the plains to Salt Lake. And a great example that our faith does not have to be and shouldn’t be defined on what our trials are like in this mortal life. That you can believe even when everything possibly that could go wrong goes wrong. You can still believe, and in fact hopefully still believe and trust in the fact that everything will be made right in the next life.

Hank Smith: 01:23:17 Your losses will be made up to you.

John Bytheway: 01:23:20 Yeah, all your losses will be made up to you. I’m reminded of what Robert Millett talks about. High Mountain, low valley experiences. Like Moses sees God, Moses chapter one and Satan shows up. Jesus hears the voice of the Father when he is baptized and then, hey, if you be the son of God, throw yourself off here. You’ve got Kirtland and then descended to what you just described there. For me, I’m just thinking, Joseph, he can do nothing because he’s in a prison and hearing of those reports, you’d feel so helpless not to be able to do anything. Those sections that come out of there are just amazing too.

Hank Smith: 01:24:03 I’m looking forward to it.

John Bytheway: 01:24:05 Yeah. I love these Voices of the Restoration episodes because I get so inspired by these people. It causes a little bit of introspection, like you said, Gerrit, all of a sudden, okay, I’m going to the temple every day. It’s so inspired by these saints of the restoration. Thank you for your time today. For those of you who would like to listen to Gerrit on his own podcast, it’s called Standard of Truth. Thank you for joining us and we’ll look forward to having you again on followHIM.