Hank Smith:                      00:00                   Coming up in this episode on followHIM.

Karen Hepworth:             00:04                   The prohibitives are three. The what we should do are innumerable.

Hank Smith:                      00:12                   Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I’m here with my co-host John Bytheway, who runs and is not weary, who walks and does not faint. John. That’s true

John Bytheway:               00:26                   Yeah. You can’t see it, but I’m actually on a treadmill underneath this desk at a full sprint. Yeah, I’m going.

Hank Smith:                      00:35                   Yeah. This is going to be a fun day, John. You know that saying it’s from section 89 verse 20. You shall run and not be weary. You shall walk and not faint. John, we’re joined today by Sister Karen Hepworth, a long time teacher in church education. Karen, welcome to followHIM.

Karen Hepworth:             00:54                   Thanks for the invitation.

Hank Smith:                      00:56                   You got it. John, Karen comes highly recommended by multiple guests that we’ve had on this show. She was hard to pin down, but I finally found her and got her here. John, when you think word of wisdom, tell me what comes to mind automatically. You’ve taught this your whole career.

John Bytheway:               01:13                   I used to think health code. Now I think more keep your agency. I’m just eager to learn from Karen today.

Hank Smith:                      01:20                   I am too John. Karen, as you’ve prepped for these few sections, what do you wanna do today? Where do you want to go?

Karen Hepworth:             01:27                   Most excited about the Doctrine and Covenants section 89, talking about the word of wisdom. We’ll touch on section 90 as well, the continuing establishment of the first presidency. We could spend a few hours in the apocrypha if you’d like to read some verses there, and then we’ll touch really lightly, Frederick G. Williams joins the United Order. Would love to spend the bulk of our time in section 89.

Hank Smith:                      01:56                   Awesome. Sometimes I think with sections like 89, we think we know what’s in it. You would say, oh yeah, I know the word of wisdom. I’ve read that. All of a sudden you start to dig into the details. Maybe I didn’t know exactly what was there. It’s something we talk about so commonly, but I wonder if we actually get into the text very often. Now, John, I told you that Karen comes highly recommended, but there may be some people out there that think, why is she so highly recommended? Why don’t you give us a little bit of a background? She avoids telling us details about her life. It’s hard to know whether she’s serious or not. From retired NFL cheerleader to related to bodybuilders, she’s got a story for everything. John, what do we know for sure?

John Bytheway:               02:45                   Okay, this is what we know for sure. Karen Hepworth has spent her professional career immersed in the inspired world of seminaries and institutes. She says she’s a proud S&I lifer. She was chosen as a Dallas cowboy cheerleader. No. Says she loves the Chosen and Dallas Jenkins cheerleader.

Karen Hepworth:             03:04                   Oh okay. Actually do love the chosen.

John Bytheway:               03:07                   She’s taught at Pleasant Grove and Orem Seminaries as well as BYU in the Utah Valley Institute. She currently works as a project manager for institute curriculum and serves as a member of the Correlation Materials Evaluation Committee for the church, which means she knows her stuff.

Hank Smith:                      03:28                   Wow. Yeah. She’s going to be able to say, ooh, that’s not true to you and I. Karen, what else do we need to know about Karen Hepworth?

Karen Hepworth:             03:41                   That’s perfect. That’s pretty much it. I love the scriptures. I love the prophets. I love the word of God. That’s me. Very simple. So I’m so grateful for the invitation.

Hank Smith:                      03:56                   One thing I wanted to ask you is how many children are in your family?

Karen Hepworth:             04:00                   I have 10 siblings. I have nine brothers.

Hank Smith:                      04:05                   That’s the part. Nine brothers.

Karen Hepworth:             04:09                   Those that know me, you know my personality because I have nine brothers always having to defend myself. I’m a tease. I can take it, but I give it out more than I take.

Hank Smith:                      04:24                   You have to. That’s a defensive mechanism in a house with nine brothers. Well, let’s get going here. Section 89 through 92. A principle with a promise. Here’s the opening of the Come, Follow Me manual. In the School of the Prophets, the prophet Joseph Smith taught the Elders of Israel about building God’s kingdom on earth. They discussed spiritual truths, prayed together, fasted and prepared to preach the gospel. But there was something about the atmosphere that might seem odd to us today, and it didn’t seem right to Emma Smith either. During the meetings, the men smoked and chewed tobacco, which wasn’t unusual for the time, but it stained the wood floors black and left a strong odor in the air. Emma shared her concerns with Joseph, and Joseph asked the Lord. His response was a revelation that went far beyond smoke and tobacco stains. It gave the saints for generations to come a principle with a promise. Promises of physical health, wisdom, and great treasures of knowledge. Those all sound like things that I would like more of. Physical health, wisdom and great treasures of knowledge. Karen, how do you want to start this off?

Karen Hepworth:             05:37                   How about we start really high level? Let’s go big picture so we have a place to land before we even dive in. Joseph Smith in January of 1841 said, we came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. President Russell M. Nelson said, your physical body is a magnificent creation of God. It’s his temple as well as yours and must be treated with reverence. The scripture declares, What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s. Your body, whatever its natural gifts is a magnificent creation of God. It’s a tabernacle of flesh, a temple for your spirit.

                                           06:38                   It’s not an end in itself. It’s an essential part of God’s great plan of happiness for our eternal progression. I just love to come in that broad with why we have a body, what we’re supposed to do with it, this magnificent creation that the Savior bought with a price so we can have and ultimately present it pure in the celestial kingdom before God. When this revelation happened, the larger context was the temperance movement had swept across the United States and throughout Kirtland. It was there in Kirtland. Everyone was drinking. There wasn’t a lot of clean drinking water. Men, women and children were drinking alcohol. So shocking to us today, but alcohol was just a part of the climate back then.

John Bytheway:               07:34                   That is so interesting to me because clean water, is that a relatively new thing for back then, drinking alcohol was safer. Which is strange. When I was in the Philippines on my mission, we were instructed to go buy soda on Sundays because we had to stay hydrated in the tropical heat. Those kinds of exceptions were made because the water was unsafe. I’m not sure if that’s true anymore, but the water is unsafe in parts of the world and in Joseph Smith’s world for the most part.

Hank Smith:                      08:07                   Yeah, I think if we walk around, Karen in 1831, you would see alcohol. Everybody drinks alcohol. It’s not seen as odd or weird. Are we talking all kinds of alcohol? Are we talking like whiskey, wine, beer,

Karen Hepworth:             08:25                   Hard drinks, liquor, fermented, hard cider, all of it. Verse two, by greeting, not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the words of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all the saints- in the last days given for a principle with a promise adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints. God is so kind, so compassionate, so loving. This is for all. Any level of conversion. Even the weakest can abide by this. In a periodical publication in Nauvoo, the Times and Seasons on June 1st, 1842, they published a discourse that President Hyrum Smith gave a brilliant one on the word of wisdom. President Smith, because at this time he was a member of the first presidency, patriarch of the church replaced his father in that position. He said, the Lord told us what is good to eat and to drink and what is pernicious, meaning gradually harmful, but some of our wise philosophers and some of our elders pay no regard to it.

                                           09:41                   They think it too little, too foolish for wise men to regard. Fools! He called them fools exclamation point. Where is their wisdom? Beautiful play on words. Where is their wisdom, philosophy, and intelligence? Yeah he’s coming out of the gate hardcore. Hyrum Smith continues, if they have any wisdom, they obtained it from God. Have they grown so much wiser that they’re going to instruct him in the path of duty and to tell him what is wise and what is foolish? Do they think it too small for him to condescend, to tell man what is nutritious or what is unhealthy? Who made the corn, the wheat, the rye, and all the vegetables? Who was it that organized man and constituted him as he is found, who made the stomach, his digestive organs and prepared proper nutrients for his system that the juices of his body might be supplied and his form be invigorated by that kind of food, which the laws of nature and the laws of God said would be good for man, for the word of wisdom is adapted to the capacity of all that are or can be called saints.

                                           10:59                   Wow. That’s Hyrum Smith. Incredible. Does God know what he’s doing? He does. He created the body. He created every bit of it so he knows what’s best for the body. Hyrum Smith says, these are the principles I act on and I’ve always practiced them and they’re what my family practices. They’re what Brother Hyrum has contended for and I contend for, and I know that nothing but an unwavering undeviating course can save a man in the kingdom of God. There you go. Verse four, behold verily thus saith the Lord unto you, in consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days. Can you think of many examples of this John and Hank? Think of the conspiring going on in the last days. The Lord says, I warn you and forewarn you by giving you the word of wisdom. I’m giving this to you because there are so many conspiring men and women. What comes to mind first for you? When we think of groups that are conspiring against our health.

John Bytheway:               12:14                   The one I’ve heard the most was tobacco. People knew, but they conspired not to reveal what they knew. I’ve always thought that was interesting to have people know, but to put profit over people.

Karen Hepworth:             12:29                   Yeah. That’s the first thing I thought of. It’s the most shocking. I had read this a few years back. I read it again in preparation for this, the National Institute of Health, when they published 50 Years of Progress, a report from the Surgeon General on the Health Consequences of Smoking. I had read this before, but again, I was shocked. In 1953, all the major tobacco companies executives met together with guidance from an advertising firm, Hill and Nolton. They devised a strategy where they founded an organization called the Tobacco Industry Research Committee, and then it became the Council for Tobacco Research, which publicly stated their commitment to public health for decades. What this industry actually did is denied the harms of their products, discrediting all the scientific evidence and funded research that diverted attention from cigarettes, and they marketed new products, implying that they had lower and health benefits even. Talk about conspiring men and women in the last days when the Lord said, I warn you, Hank, any examples come to your mind?

Hank Smith:                      13:50                   What comes to my mind is Paul, the love of money is the root of all evil. That if you love money more than you care about, say your customer, you can end up harming millions. John, do you remember Revelation chapter 18? We found this list of what’s for sale, what’s for sale in the world? Gold, silver, stone, pearls, fine linen, purple silks, cloth, goes on, ivory, wood, bronze, iron, marble, spice, incense, myrrh and frankincense. John is seeing everything that’s for sale in the world. Do you remember the last few? Cattle and sheep, horses and carriages and human beings sold as slaves. And I wonder if a little bit has to do with this. I warn you of conspiring men in the last days.

Karen Hepworth:             14:45                   Money’s more important than human life. When I read that report, it’s super long it’s a couple hour read. When I got to the secondhand smoke, I had to stop. It was so disturbing of how far they went to try to deny the dangers. The Lord, right? I warn you and forewarn you of what’s coming. We’ll come back to that. Just touch lightly when we get to tobacco in just a moment. Verse five, that inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drinks among you, behold it’s not good. Neither meet in the sight of your father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. Now, we obviously use water. Verse six, and behold, this should be wine, yea pure wine of the grape of the vine of your own make. I think it’s Doctrine and Covenants 27:2 it doesn’t matter what you eat or drink, as long as your eye is single to the glory of God and then water is universally available and free.

                                           15:45                   Brigham Young change the sacrament wine to water, which we drink of now verse seven, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies. Again, to us, we know that go back in the 1830s, they used it for everything. Medicinal purposes. They drank it all three mills, but for medicinal purposes, that was the remedy for almost everything that ailed them. For them to completely change. This was a huge step for them. Verse eight, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and it’s not good for men, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle to be used with judgment and skill. There was an official statement that came out from the church on August 15th, 2019 because you could see how some would read this and say it’s just tobacco. Well, the church clarified.

                                           16:50                   Vaping, E-cigarettes, green tea and coffee based products are prohibited by the word of wisdom. The statement continued substances such as marijuana, and opioid should be used only for medicinal purposes as prescribed by a competent physician. On June 1st, 1842 Hyrum Smith, in that same discourse, he said tobacco is a nauseous, stinking, abominable thing, and I’m surprised that any human being should think of using it. Wow. Thank you Hyrum. Hank and John, did you catch Elder Klebingat in his most recent BYU devotional, The Atonement of Jesus Christ, Judgment Day, and You. He has that Hyrum Smith flair. I challenge any of us identifying as a cell phone, clutching couch potato to put our spirit in charge of our body to set some meaningful long-term exercise and dietary goals to get out of your current comfort zone and to enjoy increased physical, mental, and emotional blessings. Mind over mattress, spirit over body.

Hank Smith:                      18:16                   Wow.

Karen Hepworth:             18:19                   Yay Elder Klebingat has that forthright punch when he speaks of health and wellness too.

Hank Smith:                      18:25                   Reminds me of 1604 King James. We’re talking King James Bible King James. He wrote a pamphlet called a counterblast to tobacco. He called smoking loathsome to the eye, hateful to the nose, harmful to the brain, and dangerous to the lungs. From what I’ve read, and both of you can comment on this, it wasn’t really about a medical thing, it was more about a moral issue.

Karen Hepworth:             18:55                   Yeah, exactly. That’s Hyrum, when Hyrum called it nauseous, stinking abominable. It’s more social and cultural because they don’t know the adverse health effects yet.

Hank Smith:                      19:07                   Yeah. It won’t be until the 1930s that science is saying, wait, this is wrong. And of course, as you said, it was hidden for so long.

Karen Hepworth:             19:16                   Mm-hmm. Yeah, Hugh Cummings, I think he was the surgeon general, and he noticed that it caused nervousness, sleeplessness, et cetera. It’s just going to start early on, and then in the fifties we’ll get some more meaningful research on the dangers of tobacco.

Hank Smith:                      19:32                   Hmm. And here what year is this? 18…

Karen Hepworth:             19:35                   33.

Hank Smith:                      19:38                   Wow. 1833.

John Bytheway:               19:41                   I remember when television commercials used to feature the Marlboro man. At one point they finally decided, let’s take tobacco advertising off tv, but I’ve seen magazine ads that says, you know, it aids in digestion. Like you said, they were trying to say, oh, actually it’s healthy. I’m old enough to remember the smoking and non-smoking sections on airplanes. It was the most ridiculous thing. You’re in an airtight aluminum tube and people are smoking, but you’re two rows behind the non-smoking section, so it won’t hurt you. King James, the first, he imposed a 4000% tax on tobacco.

Karen Hepworth:             20:22                   4,000?

John Bytheway:               20:23                   Yeah. Now, speaking of profits being more important than people when this failed to decrease demand. Now he didn’t know the health thing, but he took a more pragmatic approach, nationalizing the entire tobacco trade so that profits went directly to the Crown

Hank Smith:                      20:39                    He’s like, oh, you can’t beat ’em. Join ’em.

Karen Hepworth:             20:43                   Wow. Yeah. That’s not a conspiracy, John. Not at all.

John Bytheway:               20:47                   Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got extended family who I want to extend some grace. They’re trying to quit. People out there are trying to quit. What we’re talking about is people trying to hide that it was so harmful and that’s right there, conspiring men. They know it’s harmful. They’re hiding it by setting up a, what was it called? Tobacco Health Institute. Incredible.

Karen Hepworth:             21:15                   Yeah. Yeah. They were paying people, researchers, scientists, to minimize the effects to do counter scientific studies. They did that for years. It’s really sad. The tobacco executives gave ENTs, ear, nose, throat specialists free cigarettes for decades to give to their patients. Now, these are patients that are coming in already sick with asthma, all sorts of problems already sick, and they’re handing them out to their patients to help relax the throat to breathe better. They’re giving them cigarettes. This went on for decades.

John Bytheway:               21:57                   I just don’t know how the first person came up with the idea, you know, Hey, that’s a pretty plant. Yeah, it’s got some sizable leaves there. Um, let’s put it in the house. No, let’s light it on fire and breathe in the smoke. How did that happen even? I have never had that idea about any house plant I’ve ever owned. It’s odd that that idea came up.

Hank Smith:                      22:20                   I remember I was just out of high school when the settlement between the tobacco industry and the United States occurred. You guys know that number? It was $200 billion that the major tobacco companies would pay to the United States and five territories in Washington DC for 25 years with payments continuing indefinitely into the future.

John Bytheway:               22:46                   I love that the Lord sees that and sees, there’s some conspiring men. As you said, Karen, I warn and forewarn you. I have in my notes an anticipatory revelation.

Karen Hepworth:             22:59                   Perfect.

John Bytheway:               23:00                   This sort of thing is going to continue. You need to be aware that this sort of thing is going to continue.

Karen Hepworth:             23:08                   It’s still going on. That’s why I love the statement that came out. No vaping, no e-cigarettes. There’s always going to be the next thing. Verse nine, and again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly. I think I had more than one teacher say no hot chocolate or interpret it in their own way. Many have, but as early as the revelation was given, Joseph Smith and Hyrum said, no we interpret this to be coffee and tea. In July, 1833, Joseph Smith said, it’s coffee and tea. In 1842, Hyrum said, there are many who wonder what this means, whether it refers to coffee or tea or not. I say it does refer to tea and coffee, and then Brigham Young in 1870. How many witnesses do we need? There’s three. Brigham Young said he interpreted it as tea and coffee. Those are the hot drinks that we avoid.

Hank Smith:                      24:17                   It’s been clarified multiple times is what you’re saying.

Karen Hepworth:             24:19                   Multiple times that it’s coffee and tea. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      24:22                   Coffee and tea. This is where Karen, you can help us out here. One of the reasons I brought you on, most members of the church would in verse eight, say, absolutely verse seven, alcohol absolutely, and then we get into hot drinks and well, what about this, where those discussions begin. What about herbal tea? What about, you know what counts? I like what you’re saying here is the Lord can’t list every single thing that is bad for you on the earth, so there’s principles here to watch out for, but hot drinks has been defined for us.

Karen Hepworth:             25:01                   Hot drinks has been defined. In addition, in that statement that I read earlier, the official statement published by the church August 15th, 2019, they said green tea and coffee based products. There’s your principle. See how you can apply that to your situation.

Hank Smith:                      25:20                   Interesting. Karen, I get questions like you from students saying, what’s the church’s official position on fill in the blank. What I hear you saying is here’s a couple official positions. Everything else is not official.

Karen Hepworth:             25:38                   Hank, President Hinckley, when people said, well, drugs isn’t in the word of wisdom. Where’s that? He said, what a miserable excuse. There’s likewise no mention of the hazards of driving into an empty swimming pool or of jumping off an overpass of the freeway. Common sense would dictate against such behavior. It’s common sense. Substances such as alcohol, tobacco, and harmful drugs are forbidden by the Lord. President Russell M. Nelson said that in the August, 2019 New Era. I recommend that to everyone I know. We want to be told everything, every ingredient, there’s just too much. Satan never sleeps. There’s just going to be too much out there. Too many products, too many ingredients we’re going to have to get to. It’s a principle with a promise.

Hank Smith:                      26:33                   Karen, that August, 2019 New Era, it does give you some interesting details that fit a more modern audience. It repeats again what you just told us. The Lord forbids using tobacco and hot drinks, which church leaders have explained means tea and coffee. Modern prophets and apostles have frequently taught that the word of wisdom warns against substances that can harm us or enslave us to addiction. There’s a paragraph on vaping and e-cigarettes. There is a paragraph on mocha latte macchiato I wish I knew what that was. Sorry, everyone. Green tea and iced tea, marijuana, opioids. Like you said earlier, Karen, that New Era article came the same month as an official church statement. We can link this in our show notes. It’s an official church statement on the word of wisdom. It’s only two paragraphs, but it backs up what was in that New Era article. As a member of the correlation committee you’re going to take that pretty seriously.

Karen Hepworth:             27:43                   I am, yes. As a member of the Correlation Materials Evaluation Committee, the Correlation Committee is the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12, I’m on the evaluation committee, so we’re going to take any official statement by the church pretty serious. We make sure when we look at materials that it’s based in scripture or words of the prophet. You have a beautiful article by President Russell M. Nelson in the 2019 New Era.

Hank Smith:                      28:11                   Karen, let’s keep asking you just a couple more questions. John. I have a bunch. I occasionally hear from frustrated Latter-day Saints who say, well, we don’t drink coffee and tea, but you can have all the chocolate and caffeine that you want as long as it’s not coffee and tea. But I’m not hearing you say that’s the point. I don’t see the church has ever clarified the reason why. Here’s just how these terms are defined. Is that right?

Karen Hepworth:             28:39                   That’s right. That’s how they’re defined. But we don’t say, we don’t clarify all the reasons behind that. I don’t think the Lord always does that. Once in a while he does, but it’s my observation that usually he doesn’t. That’s beautiful. So we can use our agency. We can pray and find out for ourselves. Again, this is a principle with a promise. The Lord will let us know.

Hank Smith:                      29:03                   Who would’ve thought that? Just a few words in verse nine. Hot drinks are not for the body or belly would cause

Karen Hepworth:             29:11                   Such a stir, right?

John Bytheway:               29:13                   Becomes such a hot topic.

Hank Smith:                      29:15                   Yeah. So much heartburn.

Karen Hepworth:             29:18                   In Teachings of President Gordon B. Hinckley. I read this delightful little quip that he heard from a bishop of a woman saying during her temple recommend interview, now Bishop you’re not going to let one little cup of coffee keep me out of the temple? And he came right back and said, now, dear sister, you’re not going to let one little cup of coffee keep you out of the temple. It’s the way you frame it. I think if we get too myopic and get in specifics, caffeine, heat, tannic acid, I think we’re missing the principle. We need to go back to the guiding principle. We were given this body and we’re to present it pure in the celestial kingdom. Let’s see what we can do to keep it healthy. Can I do this? Can I do this? How about our framework is what can I do to help this temple that God has given me this incredible gift to a house for His Spirit to dwell, for my spirit to be able to express itself. Maybe we ask the wrong question. Sometimes when you text me, can I have this type of tea? Versus is there something that I can do? We’ll get there in just a minute. It’s very clear on what the Lord would have us do to keep our body healthy. It’s a great habitation for our spirit.

Hank Smith:                      30:41                   And if you keep listening, everyone, we’re going to give out Karen’s cell number at the very end. You can text her all your questions. You can text her all you want.

Karen Hepworth:             30:48                   All day, all night, ingredient lists.

Hank Smith:                      30:52                   I think this would be a good place to bring up something that I brought today. This is from my friend Dr. Anthony Sweat. Both of you know Anthony. He would not say that this is the church’s official position, but he put something on his Instagram account, I think about a year ago that I found so fascinating and I would love to hear from both of you on this. Here’s what he wrote. The issue on Joseph Smith’s mind in the winter of 1833 was not, how can I make people more healthy? But instead was, how can I make people more holy? The word of wisdom came for the elders in the school of the prophets who were seeking to become sanctified to see the face of God. When we make the word of wisdom only about health benefits, we can get confused when hundreds of scientific studies show certain health benefits of tea or coffee or alcohol consumption.

                                           31:45                   If the word of wisdom were only about health, it would say something like, thou shalt refrain from refined sugars or thou shalt plank. Surely the Lord offers health blessings for living the word of wisdom, but its purposes are to prepare for endowment, to be in the presence of God, to reveal his hidden mysteries. Its purpose is to create conditions that help bring that about self-restraint, discipline, clarity of mind. Its purpose is to help mark you as modern Israel as Verse 21 suggests tea, coffee, tobacco, alcohol are ubiquitous in any society. When you refrain from those things, it sets you apart as a peculiar person. One more. So if someone says, why don’t you drink tea or coffee? Don’t say because it’s a sin or it’s unhealthy. Say something like, because we believe God has told us to refrain from some common consumptions. In doing so, it shows dedication to God and developed self-control for which we believe he will bless us. Comments from either of you. I liked what Anthony’s saying here is it’s not just about health. It’s about being set apart, being different, being peculiar even.

Karen Hepworth:             33:04                   It’s beautiful, being healthy for me, striving to be healthy. That is a holy role in my life. That’s a beautiful statement from Anthony Sweat. That’s lovely.

John Bytheway:               33:16                   It’s interesting to reflect that for the first 100 years since this revelation, ask your average member of the church, they wouldn’t bring up any science in this. For them it was a matter of, well, the Lord asked, we’re probably getting in trouble if we want to have an exact reason for everything he’s asked us to do right? Instead of more of I am striving to discover the Lord’s will for me, even if I don’t completely understand it sounds like a better way to go. That helps me to realize, ask a member in 1850, why you refrain from tobacco? What are they going to say? Well, the surgeon general has determined, I mean.

Hank Smith:                      34:01                   Yeah, it seems much more obvious today. Before we move on from verse nine, what if someone says, I can’t handle the hypocrisy of someone who puts back three energy drinks in a day but doesn’t drink coffee and tea. They can go to the temple where someone who drinks coffee with much less caffeine can go to the temple. I know that’s not an easy answer, but how would you respond?

Karen Hepworth:             34:26                   Let’s make sure we ourselves are on the covenant path. Let’s look out for ourselves. I think that’s a helpful principle. We don’t know what goes on in people’s worlds, why they do the things they do, so I think it’s safer to be concerned always with yourself. Whatever is going on, let’s just make sure that we’re good with Heavenly Father and love all others. I have a sibling who is in the hospital right now. He got caught up in drugs really early on in his life. After that lifetime battle, and I mean a long lifetime. He said he is done. He decided to call it quits. You never know. You don’t know what they’re dealing with and I think it might be a little myopic to say, well, they’re drinking that. I would say, no, what am I drinking? That’s the question I’d ask. Rather than are they drinking energy drinks and yet we can’t drink coffee?

Hank Smith:                      35:29                   Karen, I really appreciate that answer. John, you’ve said this before. To me, when we start looking sideways, at the righteousness of others and what we think about it, we generally get in trouble and what Karen’s saying is look up.

John Bytheway:               35:44                   Yeah, if you want to look around and see hypocrisy, you will find it. I love Mormon’s counsel to Moroni. Not withstanding their hardness, let us continue faithful. I know that they’re all doing that, but let us continue faithful. Just what you said, Karen, I gotta look after me. I can’t control all that. Looking sideways never goes well.

Karen Hepworth:             36:12                   It’s exhausting, right? It’s exhausting to try to keep track of what everyone’s doing and their standing before God. No one knows their standing before God. Let’s keep an eye on ourselves. Again, love and help each other along the covenant path, but it’s exhausting.

Hank Smith:                      36:29                   Yeah. Yeah.

John Bytheway:               36:30                   It’s better to look up.

Hank Smith:                      36:31                   There’s probably a reason that temp recommend interviews are done behind closed doors. We don’t stand everybody up in front of the ward and go through the interview.

Karen Hepworth:             36:42                    Yeah, it’s so personal.

Hank Smith:                      36:44                   Karen, do you want to keep going here? Verse nine. We could probably spend the next few years on on those few words.

Karen Hepworth:             36:50                   We already have. Let’s go to 10. I love verse 10. We get stuck in the prohibitive, the coffee, tea, the tobacco and strong drinks. We think that’s the word of wisdom. Well, here comes the joy, the bulk of it. There’s so much more. Begins in verse 10, and again, verily I say to you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature and use of man. It’s been that way from the beginning when he created this beautiful earth. Genesis 1:29, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature and use of man. Every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed to you, it shall be for meat, Hebrew for food, so it’s been that way from the beginning. He has provided all of these beautiful, nutritious vegetables, fruits for us to partake of. It’s just a beautiful thing.

                                           37:49                   Verse 11, every herb in the season thereof and every fruit in the season thereof, all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving. I asked the primary children when I was primary president years ago, I had a huge primary, what’s your favorite food? We’re talking about word of wisdom, mac and cheese, pizza, Oreos. I go, yum, and they listed dozens of things. Now think carefully. What’s your favorite food that God has created and their little faces go, pizza, mac and cheese, Oreos. Exact same thing. They are so cute. I was talking to my friend Stephanie. She was teaching word of wisdom to her primary children and she said, okay, who can tell me what the word of wisdom is? She said, this cute little boy. He shot up his hand and he goes, that we don’t eat a lot of sugar. She goes, your parents are wonderful.

                                           38:50                   That was her response. Your parents are wonderful. Yeah, that’s not the word of wisdom, but you have really good parents. We shouldn’t eat a lot of sugar. God has given us all of these beautiful things to partake of. Fruits, vegetables, everything that grows. I get emotional, John Hank, when I eat, talk about gratitude and eating this with thanksgiving. In the revelation, look in verse 11 it says to do this with thanksgiving. Look in verse 12. We do this with thanksgiving. I don’t know what that looks like to you or to our listeners, but I am an emotional eater. I cut open an orange and like I get weepy. I’m like, how could anything smell this good? I cut open a pomegranate that looks like rubies. It’s the most lovely luscious tasting fruit. Every meal, whatever I’m eating, I just say, heavenly Father, how did you even think to create something that’s this beautiful, this delicious and this nutritious? It really is something.

                                           39:57                   We say the word of wisdom is section 89. I think it’s so much broader than that. I read to you, Genesis, I want to read to you Section 59. Inasmuch as ye do this, the fullness of the earth is yours. The beast, the field, the fouls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth. Yea and the herb and the good things. Do you love that? And the good things, which cometh of the earth, whether for food, for raiment, for houses, barns, orchards, gardens, or vineyards. Yea all things which come of the earth in the season thereof are made for the benefit and use of man both to please the eye and gladen the heart, yea for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul. This is word of wisdom, section 59, even before Joseph Smith received section 89, we have hints of this throughout. All of these beautiful things the Lord has ordained for us to partake of, to enliven our soul and more importantly, to keep us connected to God. It pleases the eye and gladdens the heart. I tell him, I’m like, oh, heavenly Father, this is so beautiful and it tastes so good. I’m just so happy that you provided this for me. It’s such a blessing.

John Bytheway:               41:27                   That’s beautiful. I was hoping you would go there ’cause I thought in section 59, I have in my margin, what a gracious God. I’ve given you such a variety of fruits and vegetables. I mean, I had a raspberry the other day and I thought I had been caught up into the third heaven. There’s something about raspberries. It’s not just fun for us. It pleaseth God that he had given all these things unto man. How gracious that He shares that with us. The variety. That’s what gets me. I used to watch Star Trek when I got home from school. In elementary school. There was this human that they caught, I don’t remember anything about the episode, sorry, trekkers out there, but the aliens gave him, they called it a nourishing protein complex, drink this every day. No variety. It was just that. I think about the variety of the fruits and vegetables that we have, and then the fact that it pleases God to share that with us. That’s really gracious, isn’t it?

Karen Hepworth:             42:28                   It’s remarkably gracious. John, I love that. Especially in the summer months. We’re going to read, was it verse 11? Every herb in the season thereof.

John Bytheway:               42:38                   Oh, it’s making my mouth water.

Karen Hepworth:             42:40                   I went out on my cherry tree and I know I should have washed them. I’m just eating cherries off the tree. I have fruit trees galore in my backyard. I love it. Again, if we talk too much, you’re going to have me in tears. I can’t get over that. He thought to make so many remarkable, beautiful, delicious things for us to partake of. There’s so much. He wants us to do it with thanksgiving. Whatever that looks like to you. To me, it’s to eat them. That’s why I eat so healthy because he says to eat them so I do. I eat the pineapple, the watermelon, all the berries, everything. Every fruit in the world that I love.

John Bytheway:               43:20                   Oh, can I tell you something? This is for your, why did he say that? file. But I’m walking down a dirt road in the Philippines in the early eighties and this guy yells at us elders and he’s got a big machete in his hand, which is kind of alarming, but he grabs the top of a pineapple and whacks it off, puts it on a stump and goes whack, whack, whack, whack, whack. Hands us a slab of fresh pineapple on the blade of that machete, that pineapple. You can’t get fresher than 10 seconds.

Karen Hepworth:             43:54                   Oh.

Hank Smith:                      43:54                   Yeah.

Karen Hepworth:             43:54                   Yummy.

John Bytheway:               43:57                   And it’s making my mouth water, remembering that pineapple was so good, so fresh. Then somebody gave me a mango and I thought, oh my goodness, I’m getting hungry just thinking about it.

Karen Hepworth:             44:09                   But yes, we need to have a fruit platter. When I served in Florida, you want to talk about mangoes? Oh,

John Bytheway:               44:16                   They melt in your mouth.

Karen Hepworth:             44:17                   They melt in your mouth. They are so delicious. This man that we tracted into, he took a screwdriver ’cause I’m like, I can never figure out how to open this coconut, but he knew. He took a screwdriver and he goes, watch this, and just hit it on the eye and broke it open and we had fresh coconut flesh. It was divine. Nobody but a God could think to create all of this. No one but a God could come up with, again I keep going pomegranate ’cause how can you make it look like jewels and taste like that? It’s the most beautiful thing that we have. All of these herbs, vegetables, fruits, and plants to partake of.

John Bytheway:               44:58                   I’m curious about where did your motivation to eat healthy come from? Has it been the scriptures? Has it been common sense as President Hinckley would say?

Karen Hepworth:             45:08                   John, I’m going to have to put this one on God. I don’t know if it’s a gift of the Spirit. Having an appreciation for the human body. Even since I was little in my youngest recollections, knowing that the human body is so, so special and it’s so fragile. I have another brother in the hospital right now up at the U of U. He’s been paralyzed years ago from an accident. He has paraplegia. He had to have an operation and when he got home from that surgery, he texted me what a joy it was to be able to eat food. He couldn’t eat for 12 days. The greatest joy was to come home and be able to eat. From my earliest recollection, I went, this is so remarkable, this amazing human body that houses our spirit and then to make it even more enjoyable, God gives us all of these remarkably beautiful smelling, tasting, looking nutritious foods to help our bodies to be as healthy as they’re able, as they’re able.

                                           46:15                   I have some brothers that are very ill. We weren’t all blessed with healthy bodies. Many, many of us have sicknesses of every sort and variety. They have DNA, there’s genetic factors. There’s so many things that play in here, but we can strive to be as healthy as we can with what we’re currently dealing with. God has given us all of these beautiful things to partake of. He includes in verse 12, beasts and fouls of the air, which he’s also ordained for us to use, but notice we do it with thanksgiving and he asks us to do it sparingly. Let’s go back for just a second to the revelation in 59, look at verse 20. It pleaseth God that he has given all these things unto man for unto this end were they made. That’s so beautiful in and of itself. He did all this because it’s pleasing, but he says they’re to be used with judgment not to excess, neither by extortion.

                                           47:20                   He says something similar. Recall the revelation to the Shakers in Doctrine & Covenants section 49, whoso forbids to abstain from meat that man should not eat, the same is not ordained of God. That’s for people saying meat’s not ordained of God as the Shakers were saying. He continues in verse 19 of section 49, behold the beast of the field and the fouls of the air and that which cometh of the earth is ordained for the use of man, for food and for raiment and that he might have it in abundance, but it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another. Wherefore the world life and sin and woe be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need. One thing I love about working with correlation materials evaluation is we look for scriptural precedents, not just one. The Doctrine & Covenants tells us sparingly. 59 says not to do it in excess and to use judgment. We have section 49 that tells us not to be wasteful with flesh so we have a broader picture of what that looks like.

Hank Smith:                      48:34                   I wanted to show you both an article by my friend Dr. Andrew Hedges, Andy. He wrote this article called American Wildlife and the Word of Wisdom. This is something I had never thought about before where the Lord talks about the beasts and the fouls of the air and meat. What Andy did is he went and looked at the nature of hunting animals in the 200, 300 years before the word of wisdom. This is what he wrote. For over 200 years, colonists, settlers, and citizens had shot, trapped and snared an incredible variety of wild animals and mammals. In their midst, they had used them as regular, easily obtained sources of food both for themselves and their animals as well as sources for clothing and trade items. Americans had also pursued them as pests and hunted them for recreation. Hunting had been largely unregulated with the result that incredible numbers of some species appear to have been regularly killed.

                                           49:39                   Frequently when more animals could be obtained and could be used, most or all of what had been killed was left to rot on the ground. The age and size of the quarry mattered little so long as sufficient numbers could be harvested to achieve any given end. Anything was considered fair game. So entrenched had these attitudes and practices become over the course of 200 years, that protective laws and calls for restraint went largely unheeded and unenforced and by the middle of the 18th century, enough animals of several species had been killed or harried away that the decline was noticeable in several parts of the country. The indiscriminate exploitation continued unabated into the 19th century, which time numerous authors in variety of publications were making note of the precipitous decline in the numbers of several species. Then he talks about the word of wisdom and this is what he says.

                                           50:35                   Some of Joseph Smith’s February, 1833, revelation echoed the popular culture of the time. You said that earlier, Karen, the Temperance movement was alive and well. The revelations prescriptions against the use of alcohol, tobacco, hot drinks and meat during the summer as well as prescriptions for grain and fruit were demonstrably similar to ideas being promoted in the temperance movement and other movements during the first third of the 19th century. In stark contrast to the popular culture, however stands the revelations instructions regarding wild animals as this article has shown, the sentiments in these instructions was very different from that which prevailed at the time and had become entrenched over the previous 200 years. It says that what Smith taught had challenged centuries old assumptions, ideas, and practices in American culture. He says these teachings regarding wildlife have probably attracted less attention than other things, but his ideas on wild animals were just as foreign to current thinking as his teachings on a host of other topics. God, heaven, hell, pre-mortality, priesthood authority, Smith’s revelation regarding wildlife constituted for the time, an entirely new way of thinking about humans relationships with other creatures. It’s a beautiful article. We’ll link it in our show notes. This is a lot about stewardship.

Karen Hepworth:             52:02                   It’s my favorite word stewardship that reminded me again of verse 21, of section 49 wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need, all of that waste. Heartbreaking. We have careful stewardships. We talk about time, talents, our finances. Do we think of our body as a stewardship? One of our most important stewardships is how we treat our body.

Hank Smith:                      52:35                   Karen, can I ask you something else? You have such a kind heart. I know that there are listeners out there who have been tempted to turn this off through guilt. Maybe I haven’t taken care of my body. Maybe I don’t eat the right foods. Maybe as a mom or a dad, I have not offered the best diet to my kids. I know I have been guilty of that. I’m the dad. Let’s go to the store. Pile in everything you want. What do we say to those of us who are feeling like, oh, I feel kind of like really sad about myself. That’s not what our goal is here.

Karen Hepworth:             53:14                   Not at all. No. We’re just reiterating the principles that are in the word of wisdom. Those party foods are fun. That’s why we party. We have those on occasion. This is our day to day striving to treat our body kindly. There shouldn’t be guilt, loathing, nothing of the sort. It’s my invitation. A very broad one that will help anyone with the word of wisdom. We’ll get there and I think that will remove a lot of the guilt.

Hank Smith:                      53:49                   I hope everybody listening. If you’re like me when I go to the grocery store, my wife calls it budget busting. She’s like, what did you do? Why did you buy all this? It was on sale. Look at all this wonderful ice cream that was on sale and I’m the best dad ever ’cause I brought home a box of cookies. Anybody listening, just know I’m still listening. Stay with us.

John Bytheway:               54:12                   And this is true of any topic we discuss. All of us are falling short in areas, but we keep coming back because we feel uplifted and we’re thinking, I’m going to make a course correction here.

Hank Smith:                      54:25                   Yeah,

John Bytheway:               54:26                   That’s okay. That’s why I love that I get to sit here ’cause I need to make lots of course corrections too.

Hank Smith:                      54:33                   Yeah. Alright, what’s next, Karen? 14 grain. Is that where we are?

Karen Hepworth:             54:39                   Grain, as I mentioned, the prohibitive are three. The what we should do are innumerable grains. Look at this. Verse 14, all grain. Look at verse 16, all grain. Look at verse 17. Wheat for the man, all grain is ordained for the use of man and beast. Verse 14, to be the staff of life for man and beasts. Verse 16, all grain is good for the food of man as also the fruit of the vine. I love grains. God ordained them for our use. Wheat for man corn for ox, oats for horse. I must be a horse ’cause I love oats and I do love corn. I like rye. All of this and barley, et cetera. I love that he’s giving us things that we should partake of. This is what we can eat. There’s great things on our life help topics page.

Hank Smith:                      55:37                   And that’s right in the gospel library app.

John Bytheway:               55:39                   I love that you’re showing us that the balance of this section is what to enjoy, not what to avoid. That more of it is what to enjoy and it makes my mouth water. The more we talk about all these, you had me at the wheat bread too.

Karen Hepworth:             55:57                   I think God is saying, look at all of these wonderful things. Yes, the three prohibitive are there, but think about it. If you don’t smoke and you don’t drink coffee or tea, you could still be a terribly unhealthy individual. Think about that. If you just go at the prohibitive, God is saying, listen, I’ve given you herbs, I’ve given you fruits. I’ve given you all this grain for your use. That’s what they’re for. I mean, that’s pretty strong. Wheat for man and that all grain is good. It’s for food. That’s what he made it for. It’s all there if you wanna partake, just like the fruits we’re talking about, the variety. Look at the variety of grains. It’s so fun. God is so kind to give us this many things to eat.

Hank Smith:                      56:43                   I have to tell you both a funny story. I have a, at the time he was 14, he was in junior high. He was frustrated that the school cafeteria would not let him go back for seconds. He is very assertive, so he went to talk to the principal about it and he went to the office and actually ended up talking to a counselor. He said, I want to have seconds, and the counselor said, you know you’re welcome to bring food from home, in which my son replied, there’s no food at home, and it wasn’t within about an hour that my wife got a welfare call from the school that said, is there anything we can do to help.

John Bytheway:               57:24                   There’s no, quote no food. There is nothing to eat. I’m like,

Hank Smith:                      57:30                   There is no food at home. To which my wife said, no, no. There is food to eat at home, and I asked him later, I said, what were you talking about? He said, there’s no food here. There’s just ingredients.

Karen Hepworth:             57:45                   Oh,

John Bytheway:               57:46                   That’s funny.

Karen Hepworth:             57:47                   Parents are so powerful. I don’t think they know because parents, that’s the child’s first connection with food. It is. You have the privilege and the pleasure of introducing them to all of these beautiful foods. You’re the one that gets to teach them. If you have a garden about gardening, vegetables, fruits, you’re the one that gets to lead out. You do the grocery shopping, at least for the first little bit of their life. You have a lot to say on that. You’re very powerful that way. Make sure there’s food in your house, Hank.

Hank Smith:                      58:19                   Yeah, I know. Coming up in part two of this episode.

Karen Hepworth:             58:25                   How are we lively members? If God said, be a lively member of your ward or branch, what does that look like? How do you participate in your second hour meetings? How are you a lively member in your ministering assignments? How are you a lively member when you prepare for and attend the temple as often as you’re able? Interesting that the Lord tells him to be a lively member, a fully participating member.